64 replies to this topic

[VicR]

I've been wondering for years about this. Why can't someone make a push to build an oval, with today's standards, where the old oval used to be? They could try and model it after Indianapolis with bankings between 9-12 degrees. Imagine having F1 cars run on today's circuit and the oval like they used to do in 1955, 1956, 1960 and 1961 but a safer version with less banking. Imagine a newly build oval and a 10km circuit. It would be epic. Obviously the biggest factor is financing.

Imagine running this lap today.

Edited by VicR, 10 September 2010 - 21:46.

[Bloggsworth]

No.

[PayasYouRace]

Well I would say there are a few parts to your question.

The first part is building a modern oval on the site. It is entirely possible. The blend point with the Parabolica and the Rettifilo would need close attention but it is not impossible. Similar size ovals exist in America. A suitable steepness of banking and SAFER or Tecpro barriers and it would be easy.

Is there a market? There's currently 2 ovals to modern standards in Europe and neither get much use. Rockingham and Lauzitzring get most of their use on the infield road circuits. So it would be difficult to justify demolishing the old banking, which is almost like a monument to the past, for something that might not get much use.

Can the combined circuit be used? That would be difficult because of the parallel straights with not much space (if any at all) between them. That's a major safety problem. An F1 race would seem too improbable though. Certainly without chicanes on the oval. Remember that the banking at Indy was shortly after a slow corner. Maybe it could work with chicanes where the old oval had them. But the parallel straight problem is quite an issue.

Would I like to see it? Hell yes. But I actually think it would be more practical and even realistic to revert to a chicane-less Monza for F1 than the full 10km circuit.

[VicR]

Is there a market? There's currently 2 ovals to modern standards in Europe and neither get much use. Rockingham and Lauzitzring get most of their use on the infield road circuits. So it would be difficult to justify demolishing the old banking, which is almost like a monument to the past, for something that might not get much use.

I really do understand the historical value of the remains left in the woods. I've been there walking on it and it left me with a sad feeling that Monza could be an epic race if they just brought it back with today's safety standards. It's not like they would have to cut down an entire forest to make it happen. But it would probably be the most epic circuit in the world. The high-speed nature of today's circuit along with an oval that would increase the lap by 50%. That's unheard of and all the infra structure is already there. They would just have to rebuild it.

Can the combined circuit be used? That would be difficult because of the parallel straights with not much space (if any at all) between them. That's a major safety problem. An F1 race would seem too improbable though. Certainly without chicanes on the oval. Remember that the banking at Indy was shortly after a slow corner. Maybe it could work with chicanes where the old oval had them. But the parallel straight problem is quite an issue.

Yes, I was thinking the parallel straights is probably the biggest risk/problem here. They would have to divide them somehow. Maybe tearing down the old stands at the start/finish straight and move the oval straight more to the left. Let's say 10 meters. But that would have to be financed as well.

Would I like to see it? Hell yes. But I actually think it would be more practical and even realistic to revert to a chicane-less Monza for F1 than the full 10km circuit.

The chicanes will stay because of the safety aspect. But IMHO the nature of the track, and what is possible to do, is still unexploited. They would only have to look at the past to see it's possible.

IMHO.

[nordschleife]

My advice would be to contact the owners of Chicagoland Speedway and show them your plans for a road circuit expansion. That's the only way your dream will come true. A paperclip oval plus a bicycle path through the woods. That could happen in Joliet, Illinois. But not in the the Royal Park at Monza.

[PayasYouRace]

I really do understand the historical value of the remains left in the woods. I've been there walking on it and it left me with a sad feeling that Monza could be an epic race if they just brought it back with today's safety standards. It's not like they would have to cut down an entire forest to make it happen. But it would probably be the most epic circuit in the world. The high-speed nature of today's circuit along with an oval that would increase the lap by 50%. That's unheard of and all the infra structure is already there. They would just have to rebuild it.

I wouldn't dismiss their historical value, but if they were to be torn down it would have to be for a racetrack. Holding a GP with essentially a lap of Indianapolis in the middle of the circuit seems rather dangerous though. I think it would be more likely to

Yes, I was thinking the parallel straights is probably the biggest risk/problem here. They would have to divide them somehow. Maybe tearing down the old stands at the start/finish straight and move the oval straight more to the left. Let's say 10 meters. But that would have to be financed as well.

I agree something like that would have to be done. I believe that the Monza park is protected and it is difficult to get permission to demolish much of the woods though.

The chicanes will stay because of the safety aspect. But IMHO the nature of the track, and what is possible to do, is still unexploited. They would only have to look at the past to see it's possible.

IMHO.

IMO it could safely be done to remove the first 2 chicanes, though unlikely. Ascari is popular and quite quick so I wouldn't remove it. Curva Grande with a Tecpro barrier and tarmac run-off would be about as safe as your combined circuit. Lesmo 1 would require a bigger re-design.

Still, I find it a fascinating subject, not worthy of a simple "No" but of actually discussion. Even if it is all in our imaginations.

[stevewf1]

Weren't the Lesmos corners tightened up a few years ago? I'd love to see F1 run on an oval like Chicago Land - just to see what happens.

Or maybe Tilke could design a circuit with a 1 mile oval loop inside (and part of) a road course somehow... That would be interesting.

Edited by stevewf1, 10 September 2010 - 23:11.

[chrisblades85]

I don't think they can. As some of the F duct drivers have one hand off the wheel. And it's dangerous. And compared to the when drivers had to change gears manually you can see why.

[bond]

http://photos.gpupda...arge/161754.jpg
http://photos.gpupda...arge/161761.jpg
http://photos.gpupda...arge/161931.jpg
http://photos.gpupda...arge/161954.jpg

[VicR]

I wouldn't dismiss their historical value, but if they were to be torn down it would have to be for a racetrack. Holding a GP with essentially a lap of Indianapolis in the middle of the circuit seems rather dangerous though. I think it would be more likely to.

I don't see an up to date oval as dangerous. The oval wouldn't be dangerous. The most dangerous aspect would be to be able to get medics out in the forest if something happened at the oval section. But there are so many lanes and small roads there that it shouldn't be a problem if they would just upgraded them with asphalt and better access.

I agree something like that would have to be done. I believe that the Monza park is protected and it is difficult to get permission to demolish much of the woods though.

Of course! But I'm looking beyond building permits, environmental laws and what not. I'm thinking about the possibilities. But it's all down to money in the end. That's where the bump in the road is so to speak. But it's possible to do. It would be the greatest circuit in the world.

IMO it could safely be done to remove the first 2 chicanes, though unlikely. Ascari is popular and quite quick so I wouldn't remove it. Curva Grande with a Tecpro barrier and tarmac run-off would be about as safe as your combined circuit. Lesmo 1 would require a bigger re-design.

I would leave the chicanes as they are in order for the teams to have more difficulties with the setup. The oval would make the circuit even more high-speed but they would still have to think about the curbs.

Still, I find it a fascinating subject, not worthy of a simple "No" but of actually discussion. Even if it is all in our imaginations.

Yes, I think it's an intersting topic. Thanks.

Edited by VicR, 10 September 2010 - 23:20.

[PayasYouRace]

http://photos.gpupda...arge/161754.jpg
http://photos.gpupda...arge/161761.jpg
http://photos.gpupda...arge/161931.jpg
http://photos.gpupda...arge/161954.jpg

Very evocative but the subject of the thread would be to demolish all that and build a new one. Wouldn't be the first time I might add. This oval dates from 1955. It's not the original 1922 one.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't see an up to date oval as dangerous. The oval wouldn't be dangerous. The most dangerous aspect would be to be able to get medics out in the forest if something happened at the oval section. But there are so many lanes and small roads there that it shouldn't be a problem if they would just upgraded them with asphalt and better access.

True. Modern ovals aren't especially dangerous. Actually it might be more realistic if ground effect is adopted in 2013. I think an access round round the inside of the oval would be a good idea.

Of course! But I'm looking beyond building permits, environmental laws and what not. I'm thinking about the possibilities. But it's all down to money in the end. That's where the bump in the road is so to speak. But it's possible to do. It would be the greatest circuit in the world.

In that case lets go nuts. Maybe someone with some expert photoshop skills do do a plan from a google map or something.

I would leave the chicanes as they are in order for the teams to have more difficulties with the setup. The oval would make the circuit even more high-speed but they would still have to think about the curbs.

Actually the set-up aspect is a good point. Btw were you thinking of also having the chicanes on the oval like in your plan or would the oval be chicane free on an F1 combined circuit?

Yes, I think it's an intersting topic. Thanks.

Glad you brought it up.

[VicR]

True. Modern ovals aren't especially dangerous. Actually it might be more realistic if ground effect is adopted in 2013. I think an access round round the inside of the oval would be a good idea.

Yes, ground effect/skirt is actually a factor that makes my original opinion even more valid.

The access would have to be second to none in Europe. This project could never even get off the ground with safety being neglected. Today, Monza is still very dangerous if something happens at the Lesmos. It's a long way to drive and the helicopter would have a hard time landing there. Safety is #1.

In that case lets go nuts. Maybe someone with some expert photoshop skills do do a plan from a google map or something.

That would be nice if a Photoshop wiz would render some images.

Actually the set-up aspect is a good point. Btw were you thinking of also having the chicanes on the oval like in your plan or would the oval be chicane free on an F1 combined circuit?

In my head the oval would be chicane-free. IF the drivers would complain about the full throtle on the lap I would add a chicane in the middle of the back straight some 300 meters prior to the Parabolica. IF...

Glad you brought it up.

I love this photo!

http://photos.gpupda...arge/161954.jpg

[Henrytheeigth]

Nah Sutil would wet her pants on the oval..

[Zeroninety]

Nah Sutil would wet her pants on the oval..

Considering how loony he can be on the track at times, I suspect he'd revel in it:
http://timesofindia....how/5430426.cms

Edited by Zeroninety, 11 September 2010 - 07:00.

[Chezrome]

Post deleted.

Edited by Chezrome, 11 September 2010 - 09:24.

[jee]

The pure size of the old Monza oval is just too big to make it fitting for any racing series we curretly have.
It is just not possible to run with open wheelers on superspeedways these days because the drivers could not take the high G-forces without getting unconscious. Anything faster than Indy is just not save.
F1 would also need specials tires for this event most likely because the forces on the tires would be even higher than on the indy road circuit.

Even Nascar is decreasing the speeds of their cars on superspeedways for savety. A restrictor plate race may be possible on a high banked oval there, but I doubt Nascar would go to Europe.

[Henrytheeigth]

Awww

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 11 September 2010 - 18:07.

[Captain Tightpants]

I don't think bringing back the oval would work. For one thing, you'd have to reporfile the main straight - in times gone by, both the oval and the road course shared the same main straight, and I think that would be opening the race up to problems. So you'd have to move the main straight back so that the Parabolica fed into the new straight, but if there isn't enough space for that, then you'd have to modify the Parabolica itself and risk ruining a good corner for the sake of the oval, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I also think the oval would be quite boring; it would simply be a test of whoever has an engine that can last the longest. I'd add a few high-speed bends along the back straight of the oval, kinf of like the Waite complex at Albert Park.

[RottenAli]

I also think the oval would be quite boring; it would simply be a test of whoever has an engine that can last the longest.

It's an interesting idea but if they could raise the funds to build a new oval then there would be calls for "lets go back to the road course".
So that's a shed load of money down the drain just when no one's got any.
(In fantasy land) it would be better to re-surface the oval - really looks very bumpy. It looks like it would be quite a high one groove line - and fix new safer barriers on the outside. The inside would be a different matter and all those trees would need a lot of concrete wall and debris protection. I hate to think what a crash would be like if a driver got it wrong but it I guess it would be a big Gregg Moore type one.
I'm sure the start finish area would be wide enough to have a two width section (guess it would need to be 24m) and the drivers would then be asked to keep to alturnating sides, and not do the weaving/transition tricks of old. Totally against pulling down the main grandstand, how dare anyone suggest that. Wonderfull atmosphere (and I was pleased to lunch in the main restaurant during the Easter time of 1999 for a quick homage) I'm sure the Pit access would be a minor issue and I would say better accessed only from the exit of the Parabolica. (So that would be at half lap distances)
Michigan 500 was always a car breaker. If this plan were worked through the cars would be at full chat for about 7 miles of every 10 miles.
Televisually Fantastic. But still, megga crazy idea - it really would never work.

[Jazza]

I don't think the double straight would be a problem. The Monza straight is already massively wide, with a huge margin between the pitwall and the white line. It would just needs a concrete wall running down the middle to divide it. It would be no more dangerous than the pitwall at most tracks.

(Not that this would ever happen)

[MPea3]

I don't think the double straight would be a problem. The Monza straight is already massively wide, with a huge margin between the pitwall and the white line. It would just needs a concrete wall running down the middle to divide it. It would be no more dangerous than the pitwall at most tracks.

(Not that this would ever happen)

You didn't think about that very much, did you?

[Augurk]

I'm not that educated in the history of Monza, but how does this work? After Parabolica you'd head onto the oval, and after turn 2 on the oval you'd head back onto the main track start/finish straight?

[jee]

This way, the S/F straight was split with cones if I remember correctly:


I don't think the straight is wide enough anymore to run a combined circuit because the pitlane is a lot wider than it used to be when the combined was ín use. They didn't even had pitwalls back then.

Edited by jee, 11 September 2010 - 12:53.

[Jazza]

You didn't think about that very much, did you?

I guess not. How about you explain where I went wrong...

[Dunder]

It's a wonderful notion but even less likely than going back to the old Nurburgring.
Sad but true.

[VicR]

It's a wonderful notion but even less likely than going back to the old Nurburgring.
Sad but true.

The nordschleife is too dangerous for F1 cars and the access to some parts of the track is almost impossible (except for the track itself). An Indianapolis-type oval with similar bankings would not be dangerous in that sense.

Edited by VicR, 11 September 2010 - 16:56.

[Dunder]

The nordschleife is too dangerous for F1 cars and the access to some parts of the track is almost impossible (except for the track itself). An Indianapolis-type oval with similar bankings would not be dangerous in that sense.

TBH I wasn't even thinking of FIA standards although that would be an issue, especially the 'crossover' points.
The cost would be prohibitive for a racetrack that would see very little use, there are severe noise restrictions aside from anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it but it is never going to happen. I visited the old banking on my only time at Monza, it is an incredible place.

[VicR]

TBH I wasn't even thinking of FIA standards although that would be an issue, especially the 'crossover' points.
The cost would be prohibitive for a racetrack that would see very little use, there are severe noise restrictions aside from anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it but it is never going to happen. I visited the old banking on my only time at Monza, it is an incredible place.

Yes, financing is the issue no doubt. But as I stated earlier in this thread I was thinking beyond environmental laws. The original question was if it could practically be done.

[RottenAli]

Over in the Nostalgia thread are some nice photos of the oval taken in 2003. This link worked fine for me:

http://www.teemu.net...g/17DE7908.html

also sectional drawings:


http://www.modelfoxb...opraelevata.htm

Edited by RottenAli, 11 September 2010 - 18:57.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think the straight is wide enough anymore to run a combined circuit because the pitlane is a lot wider than it used to be when the combined was ín use. They didn't even had pitwalls back then.

That is true. To re-invent the combined circuit the pits would have to be rebuilt much further away from the stands. I think a suitable wall and grass seperation between the 2 straights would be needed. You would then have a dedicated piece of track at the exit of the Parabolica to make the transition from one side to the other to used the circuit as it is now. I'm going to have a little play about with some pictures, see what I can come up with.

I think some are taking it a bit too seriously. Speaking for myself, it's just a bit of fun. I think some have also missed the comment about this being a new oval over the site of the old, with much flatter banking. The Oval itself is 2.5 miles so you wouldn't build it like Talladega but more like Indy with less than 10 deg banking.

[Atreiu]

Only in dreams.

[jee]

An Indianapolis-type oval with similar bankings would not be dangerous in that sense.

How will an oval track built by Tilke look like?

[byronbolscher]

You didn't think about that very much, did you?

Coming off the banking onto the current S/F straight you go and drive the normal Monza, which they have now (But in the old configuration without chicanes ofcourse) then, coming out of the Parabolica at the end of the normal Monza lap, there's a wall (or a line) on the start finish straight, so out of Parabolica you stay on the right of the wall/line and go onto the oval again. That's how they did it in the past.

[Henrytheeigth]

How will an oval track built by Tilke look like?

Like a tat!

[Atreiu]

Instead of running on an oval, I'd be ten times happier to see them race at Le Mans (without the chincanes), Paul Ricard (with the full long back straight) and Road America. But that's just me.

[plastik2k9]

Like a tat!

I presume the white area is all run-off?

[Henrytheeigth]

I presume the white area is all run-off?

Yep, it can't be anything else.

[arknor]

Instead of running on an oval, I'd be ten times happier to see them race at Le Mans (without the chincanes), Paul Ricard (with the full long back straight) and Road America. But that's just me.

i'd love to see f1 cars at road america guess they dont have enough money for bernie though

[Captain Tightpants]

It's not that they don't have enough money, it's that they don't have the expected standards of an FIA Grade-1 circuit. Worse, they don't have the space to expand. There are some parts of the circuit that would need to be revised and have run-off areas added, but there isn't enough space to include them. I'm thinking of the area around the Carousel and across the back of the circuit in particular. What's more, the pits, paddock and grandstands would all need to be expanded to accomodate teams and fans. And as we saw with the case of the Aida circuit, isolation can kill an event. Logiticially, how do you get to Elkhart Lake? It's not like the European races where teams can drive from circuit to circuit: it would be square in the middle of an away leg. Teams would land in Montreal to race, but you can't exactly drive from Montreal to Wisconsin and back and still expect to be able to fly back to Europe or on to Austin or Interlagos or wherever. It's simply too difficult to access the circuit.

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 12 September 2010 - 07:18.

[johnmhinds]

Isn't the oval too thin/tight for a modern F1 car to drive it at full speed?

I'm impressed that the oval track is pretty much still all there.

[jimjimjeroo]

I like how the Italians have managed to some degree preserve the banked circuit at Monza, considering the Brooklands oval is erm, Tescos! Very disappointing!

[MichaelJP]

I like how the Italians have managed to some degree preserve the banked circuit at Monza, considering the Brooklands oval is erm, Tescos! Very disappointing!

I was at that Tesco's the other day, it does seem strange carrying out your shopping with the old Brooklands banking in the background. I wonder how many shoppers know what it was and what it represents, or do they just think what an ugly concrete wall!

As for the OP's question, it will never happen but it's certainly fun to speculate. I believe the original combined circuit was quite unpopular with the drivers and wasn't used much.

[pingu666]

the banking was, and certainly is now very bumpy, and also i think it may have been made in sections

would be cool for a new build f1 track to have some ovalness to it

[Gyan]

the banking was, and certainly is now very bumpy, and also i think it may have been made in sections

would be cool for a new build f1 track to have some ovalness to it

Apparently Turn 10 and 11 will be banked in the new Indian track.

[chdphd]

The now cancelled Cancun F1 track (proposed for 2006) was part oval.

http://theracingline...Cancun2006.html

[Captain Tightpants]

Ah, the manta ray. Practically symmetrical; the only difference I can see is in the curve coming off the oval section ...

[sherer]

think someone tried to explain this earlier

When the banking was used did they do a lap of Monza and then a lap of the banking or just use one of the banks ?

[chdphd]

Check out this onboard virtual lap:

Edited by chdphd, 13 September 2010 - 14:23.

[Chezrome]

Information for fun: I tried the Monza Oval in rFactor with the MMG 2007 Formula 1 mod... and I could not see straight for the bounces up and down! You should really try it!