39 replies to this topic

[Alfisti]

okay which one i sthe better driver. Isn't the myth something like the younger one had better results but the older was a better driver or is it the other way around>>> Anyway, they seem like an interesting couple of men.

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"Life will not break your heart, it'll crush it" - Henry Rollins.

[gunner]

Ricardo was the better driver but was killed on his 21st birthday qualifying for the GP of Mexico.

Gunner

[Martyj]

The brothers started racing young backed by their wealthy father buying them the fastest machines available. In their early years in Europe, both drove over their heads, going way faster than safety would dictate. This is precisely how Ricardo died trying to make an impression in front of the home crowd (did he ever, boy howdy!)

The death of his brother was a wake up call to Pedro, who blossomed a few years latter as a much wiser driver, hence, a better one, in my opinon. Pedro was also one of the bravest drivers ever. Utterly fearless in any driving condition. I think the topic of "bravest drivers" should have its own thread, if it hasn't already.

[gunner]

I'm not sure that Ricardo was trying to impress anyone. He only knew one way to drive and that was flat out. The Lotus had a reputation of breaking suspension parts so who knows what really happened. The kid was a fantastic driver.

Gunner

[Ray Bell]

The wise scribes of the time wrote that he was driving (for the first time) a typically oversteering car after all his recent (and F1) experience had been in a typically understeering car.
Whether that was a real assessment or not, we'll perhaps never know. There was no suggestion that anything broke, however, he just skated off the road on the rough banking.. I'm sure that was the description of the event at the time.. that the banking was rough and caught poor Rob's car out.
Pedro actually retired... for a time.
And brave, yes. He alone dictated that the wet Longford go ahead after the rivers subsided. Clark and Amon had no heart for it, but Courage had the tyres for it. Pedro had the courage for it...
Did you read the story about his Austrian 1000km drive a few weeks before his death in Motor Sport? That paid him some nice compliments.. not hollow ones, either, factually backed ones.
Where was he going to drive the next year, by the way? That would have been an interesting scenario!

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[KzKiwi]

Ricardo was apparently the quicker of the Two, but much more ragged and loose to go with this. Apparently he also had less mechanical sympathy and had a lot more accidents than his older brother. Contemporaries at the time believed that there was a fearlessness of 'disturbing proportions'in Ricardo.

However he was also desperate to succeed and crack the big time in Europe. I think the fact that he was so young meant that he got his entry rejected at Le Mans one year, and this further added fuel to the fire to 'show up the Europeans'.

At the same time Pedro treated racing like a hobby. He was no where near as serious or focused and started a car importing business after leaving university. Eventually I believe Ferrari offered them both contracts to race in Europe, which Ricardo accepted and Pedro declined. Pedro's uncertainty is in complete contrast to how we remember him in his future years.

For me there a lot of similarities between Ricardo and Stefan Bellof. They were both 'real' racers whose chances were tragically cut short. Ironically they were both killed when racing under cicumstances that were unusual, especially in todays septic environment. Ricardo was racing a Lotus in a 'one off' deal, and Bellof was racing in a sports car event when he was a full time Formula 1 pilot.

As for Pedro, his racing record, commitment and courage are already well documented.

Sometimes you can have too much courage!!

[buddyt]

David Hobbs has been quoted as saying " there are bold racecar drivers and there are old racecar drivers but there are not any old bold racecar drivers".

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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[Alfisti]

I like that quote Budd

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"Life will not break your heart, it'll crush it" - Henry Rollins.

[Mike Argetsinger]

David Hobbs is great and so is the quote. But the "Old-bold" quote predates Hobbs by many years. I first saw it in the Grandpa Throttlebottom (AKA Miles Collier) series in the 1940's. I seem to recall that the true origins of this one may come from airplane lore. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

[Ray Bell]

Absolutely agree, Mike, that is much older than anything David Hobbs would have been recorded as saying...

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Don Capps]

Mike,

It had to do with fighter pilots rather than racecar drivers and probably dates all the way back to The Great War (1914-1918).

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Carlos Jalife]

Hi guys, I'm in the other thread about the Rodríguez brothers also.
There is an interesting note about what would the Rodríguez have raced the next years after they died if they didn't die (Ricardo in 1963 and Pedro in 1972). Well Ricardo had a contract with Ferrari for 1963 and he was going to run with them although he had an offer from Count Volpi (Serenissima man) to run with ATS but he wouldn't have taken it. He wanted to be world champion with Ferrari. Then Pedro is a different one. He was negotiating with several teams at once, all of them V12 users so guess which ones but he was going to be the first man in the Marlboro Championship team with Big Lou in BRM, if the price was right. He was also negotiating to run more NASCAR (big friend of Mr. France) races because he felt he could run with the gringos and enjoyed it. He also wanted to run Can Am with a Porsche and remember who was his partner at Le Mans 1963. There was also another offer from a major firm to run full time with them in all divisions, F1 and Sport. In all he kept thinking of running some 40+ weekends a year, and the main idea was to run with Ferrari if they could guarantee a seat in Sports and F1 cars, and it seems Don Enzo was finally willing to hire him the way Pedro wanted it. Everything was cut short by his death so we'll never know where he'd been but I know that if Ferrari agreed he would have dropped everything else and ran for the red cars. His heart was red too.

[Pedro 917]

Hi all,

Just a note to inform you that Alejandro Rodriguez, younger brother of Pedro & Ricardo, died last Monday at the age of 54.
He rests now with his brothers and parents at the Panteon Espanol in Mexico City.

[David M. Woodhouse]

Ricardo was the better driver but was killed on his 21st birthday qualifying for the GP of Mexico.

Gunner

Not quite. Ricardo was born on 14 February 1942. He died on Thursday 1 October 1962, in practice for the Mexicn GP. He would not have been 21 until the following February.

Woody

[grandprix61]

The brothers started racing young backed by their wealthy father buying them the fastest machines available. In their early years in Europe, both drove over their heads, going way faster than safety would dictate. This is precisely how Ricardo died trying to make an impression in front of the home crowd (did he ever, boy howdy!)

The death of his brother was a wake up call to Pedro, who blossomed a few years latter as a much wiser driver, hence, a better one, in my opinon. Pedro was also one of the bravest drivers ever. Utterly fearless in any driving condition. I think the topic of "bravest drivers" should have its own thread, if it hasn't already.

Ricardo drove a Porsche in a race at Meadowdale Raceway outside of Chicago in 1960 I believe. He ended up flipping the car while trying to beat the Scarab of Jim Jeffords. On the backside of the course Ricardo would get by but coming off of the Monza wall the Porsche was no match for the Scarab on the long straight. This is a shot of Ricard coming into the pits after practice. The front end is already taped up and he is also driving in a T-shirt. I have a shot of him during the race and the nose of the car was replaced as there is no tape showing. Don Devine, a team mate of Harry Heuer in the Scarabs' showed Ricardo around while he was in the area. Took him ice skating at a local rink. Ricardo had never scene ice before or been on skates. There are some photographs of Pedro and the Ferrari at Elkhart Lake, a couple nice portraits of him and also, the shot of Ricard during the race on my web site- www.prairiestreetart.com You might enjoy looking. Ron
http://img31.imagesh...odriguez961.jpg

[Jean L]

I believe it is in may 59.

[GD66]

The Brothers Rodriguez by Carlos Jalife-Villalon has appeared on the book list at the Pitstop Bookshop....at 592 pages, and a list price of $250.00, it must be quite a tome...

[grandprix61]

I believe it is in may 59.

Jean: You are correct. I tried to do this from memory and didn't look up my info. It was also in an RSK. Probably the second race held at the track. I will post the shot of Ricardo during the race this evening. thanks. Ron

[Direct Drive]

Hi all,
Just a note to inform you that Alejandro Rodriguez, younger brother of Pedro & Ricardo, died last Monday at the age of 54.
He rests now with his brothers and parents at the Panteon Espanol in Mexico City.

Did any of the brothers leave children?

Here is a link to the cemetery.

http://www.findagrav...mp;GRid=8004467

[charles r]

Hi guys, I'm in the other thread about the Rodríguez brothers also.
There is an interesting note about what would the Rodríguez have raced the next years after they died if they didn't die (Ricardo in 1963 and Pedro in 1972). Well Ricardo had a contract with Ferrari for 1963 and he was going to run with them although he had an offer from Count Volpi (Serenissima man) to run with ATS but he wouldn't have taken it. He wanted to be world champion with Ferrari. Then Pedro is a different one. He was negotiating with several teams at once, all of them V12 users so guess which ones but he was going to be the first man in the Marlboro Championship team with Big Lou in BRM, if the price was right. He was also negotiating to run more NASCAR (big friend of Mr. France) races because he felt he could run with the gringos and enjoyed it. He also wanted to run Can Am with a Porsche and remember who was his partner at Le Mans 1963. There was also another offer from a major firm to run full time with them in all divisions, F1 and Sport. In all he kept thinking of running some 40+ weekends a year, and the main idea was to run with Ferrari if they could guarantee a seat in Sports and F1 cars, and it seems Don Enzo was finally willing to hire him the way Pedro wanted it. Everything was cut short by his death so we'll never know where he'd been but I know that if Ferrari agreed he would have dropped everything else and ran for the red cars. His heart was red too.

Didn't Pedro die in 1971?

[ZOOOM]

Here are some shots from the dust bin that serves as my photo library. Please excuse the fuzziness as they were taken by a 14 year old boy with a brownie starflash box camera.


This is also at Meadowdale in 1959 in the RSK. He was exiting the Doane's hairpin on his way to the Monza Wall. It was along this straight that Pedro could get by Jim Jeffords in the Scarab. But then came the Monza wall and the front straight (almost 3/4 of a mile long) and the little Porsche didn't stand a chance.


He didn't lack for trying though. Pedro lost it several times during the race before he had the "Major".


This picture was taken the lap before Pedro crashed. This is on what was called the "uphill" at Meadowdale. One lap later, Pedro (who was valiently chasing Jeffords in the Scarab) lost control, flipped and carved a gouge in the berm just after this picture, at a height of about 8 feet above the track surface....
Pedro was through for the day.... However, I don't think this photo is of Pedro. Art Bunker was also driving an RSK that day and this may be him. No matter, Bunker flipped his RSK later in the same race!

ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 12 June 2009 - 14:34.

[Pedro 917]

Here are some shots from the dust bin that serves as my photo library. Please excuse the fuzziness as they were taken by a 14 year old boy with a brownie starflash box camera.

This is also at Meadowdale in 1959 in the RSK. He was exiting the Doane's hairpin on his way to the Monza Wall. It was along this straight that Pedro could get by Jim Jeffords in the Scarab. But then came the Monza wall and the front straight (almost 3/4 of a mile long) and the little Porsche didn't stand a chance.

He didn't lack for trying though. Pedro lost it several times during the race before he had the "Major".

This picture was taken the lap before Pedro crashed. This is on what was called the "uphill" at Meadowdale. One lap later, Pedro (who was valiently chasing Jeffords in the Scarab) lost control, flipped and carved a gouge in the berm just after this picture, at a height of about 8 feet above the track surface....
Pedro was through for the day.... However, I don't think this photo is of Pedro. Art Bunker was also driving an RSK that day and this may be him. No matter, Bunker flipped his RSK later in the same race!

ZOOOM

It was Ricardo not Pedro who drove the Porsche RSK with start # 19

Edited by Pedro 917, 12 June 2009 - 16:01.

[Pedro 917]

The Brothers Rodriguez by Carlos Jalife-Villalon has appeared on the book list at the Pitstop Bookshop....at 592 pages, and a list price of $250.00, it must be quite a tome...

That is an awful lot of money..... I bought one for 100 Euro (+/- 142 $) at the Techno Classica Fair in April (Horton's).

[Pedro 917]

Didn't Pedro die in 1971?

Pedro died the 11th of July 1971 during a minor Interseries race at the Norisring in Germany (Nürnberg), driving Herbie Müller's Ferrari 512M (chassis 1008).
Ricardo died on the 1st of November 1962 at the wheel of a Rob Walker Lotus 24, practicing for the 1st Mexican GP.

[grandprix61]

Here are some shots from the dust bin that serves as my photo library. Please excuse the fuzziness as they were taken by a 14 year old boy with a brownie starflash box camera.


This is also at Meadowdale in 1959 in the RSK. He was exiting the Doane's hairpin on his way to the Monza Wall. It was along this straight that Pedro could get by Jim Jeffords in the Scarab. But then came the Monza wall and the front straight (almost 3/4 of a mile long) and the little Porsche didn't stand a chance.


He didn't lack for trying though. Pedro lost it several times during the race before he had the "Major".


This picture was taken the lap before Pedro crashed. This is on what was called the "uphill" at Meadowdale. One lap later, Pedro (who was valiently chasing Jeffords in the Scarab) lost control, flipped and carved a gouge in the berm just after this picture, at a height of about 8 feet above the track surface....
Pedro was through for the day.... However, I don't think this photo is of Pedro. Art Bunker was also driving an RSK that day and this may be him. No matter, Bunker flipped his RSK later in the same race!

ZOOOM

Here is a shot of Ricardo just a lap or two before he got himself upside down. I missed getting that probably because I usually ran all over the place trying to capture action during the race on critical corners but also to work my way back to the finish line for the usual Checkered flag activities. I also have a shot of Art Bunker that I will try to include. If it misses I will post again. Ron http://img38.imagesh...rodriguez96.jpg

[grandprix61]

Here is a shot of Ricardo just a lap or two before he got himself upside down. I missed getting that probably because I usually ran all over the place trying to capture action during the race on critical corners but also to work my way back to the finish line for the usual Checkered flag activities. I also have a shot of Art Bunker that I will try to include. If it misses I will post again. Ron http://img38.imagesh...rodriguez96.jpg

I continue to have trouble adding pics. I am on a mac and can not copy and past from ImageShack. I have to type the file name into the box and sometimes it doesn't work. Is there away to add with out going thru imageshack? another try here for Ricardo.....

[grandprix61]

I continue to have trouble adding pics. I am on a mac and can not copy and past from ImageShack. I have to type the file name into the box and sometimes it doesn't work. Is there away to add with out going thru imageshack? another try here for Ricardo.....

well it worked that time. here is Art Bunkein in his rsk. http://img23.imagesh...tbunker9602.jpghttp:////img23.imageshack.us/img23/1199/artbunker9602.jpg

[David McKinney]

I continue to have trouble adding pics. I am on a mac and can not copy and past from ImageShack. I have to type the file name into the box and sometimes it doesn't work. Is there away to add with out going thru imageshack?

I use Imageshack with my Mac and don't have any trouble. But then I don't type filenames anywhere. I simply click on 'Browse', then on the file I want, and upload
Or you could check out the sticky at the top of the main TNF page

[Direct Drive]

I'm on Macs as well and have no trouble posting the http link

[grandprix61]

I'm on Macs as well and have no trouble posting the http link

I guess I am making more work out of this than necessary. I will try the copy and paste method. Pedro should be getting a little more attention here. With a little luck here he is in the Ferrari 350-P4-CA during the CAN/AM at Road America in 1967 coming up out of corner 12.
http://img41.imagesh.../pedro96car.jpg



o.k. didn't work. 1. I up load an image from my files on the mac. I change the size of the image on imageshack and the url shows up in a box or top line. Then I copy and paste in the forum copy block. at the point I click on the picture ICON at the top of the page (under fonts) a window opens and I have to type the url in that line. my mac bar at the top doesn't show up so I can't click paste. I just tried it that way and no image. I am missing some step here if it is as easy as you mac fellow say. any help is appreciated. thanks

[grandprix61]

I guess I am making more work out of this than necessary. I will try the copy and paste method. Pedro should be getting a little more attention here. With a little luck here he is in the Ferrari 350-P4-CA during the CAN/AM at Road America in 1967 coming up out of corner 12.
http://img41.imagesh.../pedro96car.jpg



o.k. didn't work. 1. I up load an image from my files on the mac. I change the size of the image on imageshack and the url shows up in a box or top line. Then I copy and paste in the forum copy block. at the point I click on the picture ICON at the top of the page (under fonts) a window opens and I have to type the url in that line. my mac bar at the top doesn't show up so I can't click paste. I just tried it that way and no image. I am missing some step here if it is as easy as you mac fellow say. any help is appreciated. thanks

http://img41.imagesh.../pedro96car.jpg

Hey, got it in there this time. had to type it in the box for the url .

[Direct Drive]

And it was worth the wait!
Thanks for a nice photo. I'll post one soon of his foray into the Mid-Ohio 1970 Can-Am in a chopped up Ferrari. Drove the wheels off the thing and embarrassed more than a few of the 7+ litre big blocks.
Great man, Pedro.

[RShaw]

Ricardo Rodriguez (?) in the RSK and Harry Heuer in the Bocar, Meadowdale, 1959


Ron Shaw photo

[ZOOOM]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but, WHERE HAVE THESE PHOTOS BEEN?
Mr. Shaw and GP.... these belong on the Meadowdale website!
These are great photos.
Thanks!
ZOOOM

[grandprix61]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but, WHERE HAVE THESE PHOTOS BEEN?
Mr. Shaw and GP.... these belong on the Meadowdale website!
These are great photos.
Thanks!
ZOOOM

ZOOM: I contacted someone a couple of years ago about adding a link or posting a couple of my photographs and I didn't hear from anyone so I have let it drop. Offer still stands. GP61

[RShaw]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but, WHERE HAVE THESE PHOTOS BEEN?
Mr. Shaw and GP.... these belong on the Meadowdale website!
These are great photos.
Thanks!
ZOOOM

Glad you like the pics. I think everything I have posted has been from Ektachrome slides, and it is just in the past few weeks that I have found a place that will scan them to CD without charging an arm and a leg. I think in total I have about 60 slides from Meadowdale, a like number from Elkhart, maybe one roll of garbage from Wilmot Hills, and maybe another couple of rolls from Continental Divide Raceway near Denver.
As has been discussed in the Jerry Dunbar thread, Meadowdale was by far the best place for the average spectator to view and photograph a race because there were a couple of places you could get very close to the track and the cars. At the other tracks the spectators were hell-and-gone from the track, so any pictures I took were hardly worth looking at, let alone posting anywhere. And no, I don't need any lectures about spectator safety. Safety and litigation concerns have in my opinion made road racing, and racing generally, for that matter, virtually unwatchable in person. The only people with a good view of anything are the ones operating the TV cameras.
In return for sitting through that diatribe, here's another picture ... A pair of Testa Rossas, Bob Hurt 36, Wayne Burnett 94, Meadowdale, Aug. 5, 1962. Sorry it doesn't have anything to do with the Rodriguez brothers.

Ron Shaw photo

[Barry Boor]

I see that the review of the Rodriguez Brothers book in Vintage Racecar includes the little known piece of information that Ricardo was driving a works Ferrari when he was killed in 1962!!!!!

You would have thought they might have got that one correct, wouldn't you?

[David M. Woodhouse]

I see that the review of the Rodriguez Brothers book in Vintage Racecar includes the little known piece of information that Ricardo was driving a works Ferrari when he was killed in 1962!!!!!

You would have thought they might have got that one correct, wouldn't you?

They do have it right. The book clearly indicates, both in text and photos, that Ricardo was entered and practicing for the Mexican GP with the Rob Walker Lotus at the time of his fatal crash. It is the reviewer's mistake. The Brothers Rodriguez, IMHO, is one of the better recent books and a damn good read to boot.

Woody

[RA Historian]

David, I believe Barry was referring to the magazine making such a stupid mistake, not the book.
Tom

[Barry Boor]

Thank you Tom; that was exactly what I meant.