65 replies to this topic

[Yelnats]

The following is a quote by a top NASCAR driver on the quality of racing at Talledaga (unfortunatly I didn't note which driver). I will revisit the store to confirm both the name of the driver and the magazine that quoted this comment.

"You just ride around and try to protect your position. You pick and choose, fall back and ride around for a while, have a snack, take a break, get back up front, do that for a little bit. Thats the way it is there."

Not exactly a picture of intense concentration and hard racing. This only confirms my impression gained from in car cameras of NASCAR drivers who appear to be less than overwhelmed by the driving duties. No wonder so many drivers want to move into NASCAR. It reminds me of British Rail employees during the seventies, just ride around and collect their salaries.

This comment was made after the recent race where they increased the drag by 25% and upped the power by about 12% resulting in greatly reduced top speeds. NASCAR is more and more assumimg the appearance of WWF on wheels. Similar to their wrestlin brothers, it's all show and no go.

[Ali_G]

Very True. NASCAR is a sport for REDNECKS and REDNECKS only.

God knows that George Bush Jr loves NASCAR.

Niall

[Todd]

NASCAR requires its drivers to master Superspeedways, medium ovals, bullrings, and road courses. There are more than 30 races a year that do not occur at Talledega.

How many times have F1 rules changed in an effort to lower speeds, improve safety, and to hopefully improve competition? The goals for the top series are the same.

Dale Earnhardt has started testing the Corvette C5R that he will race in the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona. He said that running the 24 hours of Daytona had been a long time ambition. The interviewer asked if he had any other dreams to chase before his career was over. Dale answered that he has always wanted to race at Monaco, but he didn't think Mike Schumacher would be of any help. I'm sure the majority of US open wheel fans were looking for him to say the Indy 500, or even Le Mans. Obviously, Dale Earnhardt is a much more complete fan of motor racing than either of you.

[Ali_G]

Todd: All NASCAR drivers are either crap or old. Those cars are so heavy that complex moves like righting a car from understeer or oversteer is vertually imposible. Its a crude form of motor racing.

Niall

[bs]

I am no fan of ovals or NASCAR, however, I'll watch a race if it's on tv and I have a few minutes to burn. Having said that, I believe the driver comments were related specifically to Talledaga, i.e. "restrictor plate" racing. Many drivers ("the Intimidator" included) hate the breed of racing that results from all the cars having to use this admittedly crude, speed limiting device. It bunches all the cars up, makes staying in the draft absolutely paramount and I'm sure bores the hell out of the drivers, who must spend the first 450 miles or so simply jockeying for position.

It's an old problem of trying to slow cars down in the name of safety. Bill France has stated his desire to keep the speeds on Superspeedways down around 190 mph or so, fearing not only for the drivers safety but the fans. Left unchecked, these dinosaurs could lap a track like Texas or Talledaga at speeds that Cart is currently hitting (240-250 range).

So restrictor plates (NASCAR), aerodynamic devices (CART with the Hanford Device) or grooved tires, take your pick. Sanctioning bodies feel they have to do something, it often produces boring or meaningless racing. For some drivers as well as fans, apparently.

[Quart]

Ali_G: Have you ever driven a stock car? Or any race car for that matter? Let me guess... NO

Crude form of auto racing? at least the driver is in charge.. I suppose 2 valves per cylinder is crude, even getting 700hp and running at nearly 9000rpm.. Of course the technoligy is rather simple, as its needed to keep the cost down and competition level...

Rednecks who are old or crap??? (do you no what a redneck is?) You obviously know nothing about Nascar or American racing in general... I personally dont enjoy nascar as much as open wheel racing but learning to appreciate different autoracing will make you a better fan(or driver) in all aspects of the sport... Ask Mario Andretti

Dont get me wrong there is alot wrong with nascar as a series(esp. speedways), but its (top)drivers are very talented and should get respect from the likes of bitter non race drivers..

If its so easy to just jump in and go how come the likes of John Andretti/Robby Gordon/Scott Pruet arent tearing up the series? (oh I'm sorry you probably think CART Drivers have no talent either)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Dale Inc was saying he was very impressed with how well Ron Fellows drives the stockers on the road courses, but he thinks he'll (Dale) will have more difficulty driving the C5 on the Daytona Road Course

[Todd]

Does Earnhardt having respect for drivers in other series preclude you from having respect for him? I guess if you're a Jarno fan, that would make sense.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Are you speaking to me?

[John B]

I would disagree with the "intense concentration" statement. Did any of you see the most recent Talladega race? How could those guys race that close, 40 cars a second apart, without wrecking every lap if they weren't totally focused?

I'd like to see the context of the quote. Many NASCAR drivers do not like racing on the big tracks because of the restrictor plates and the close bunching, and I suspect the words may have come from one of them (Rusty Wallace and Mark Martin are two examples of drivers who have made unenthusiastic quotes about plate tracks).

[luskiiimj]

Is there anything Ali_G doesn't know?

I have yet to understand why some people can't understand that while F1 is the most demanding form of racing, it is not the only form. Nor is it the true form of racing. Ali and friends, it's really a bit silly to sit there and say "oh the cars are heavy and so that's not racing." Why does it matter to you?

I can agree on one point--NASCAR is a redneck sport. Just as much as Formula 1 is a socially elite fabulously rich sport. Both are gross generalizations that convey a fairly accurate general picture of the image presented by the respective governing bodies.

In closing: Ali, don't you want somebody to love, don't you need somebody to love, wouldn't you love somebody to love?

[Duck]

Ali_G, since you know so much about "Rednecks", how about providing us with YOUR definition?

[TNSFH]

Redneck = Someone that goes to family reunions to meet gorls.

I love NASCAR, but only if there is no other racing on the TV at the time. I could give a s*** if they are just going in circles, THERE ARE 42 OF THEM GOING IN A CIRCLE!

Redneck = Someone that when he gets a divorce from his wife he can still call her sister.

[Ali_G]

Duck and lum????: Please shut up. You are new here and you don't even know me.

Niall

[AyePirate]

C'mon "Shut Up" isn't a good definition of redneck;)
at least you had the manners to say "please"

[Jaxs]

An unamed driver, in a typical laid back manner 'describes' a usual race day, and someone believed him, Ohh please, anyone who has watched and realised what was going on will be aware on the constant jockeying for position at what appears to be suicidal speeds, run too close and you have an engine over heat, run too far back and you are blown away. Next time you watch NASCAR try and stay awake so you don't dream a good race.

Jack

[Ali_G]

AyePirate: Redneck = George Bush Junior. I blieve that is also the definition for Right Wing Extremist.

Niall

[Ross Stonefeld]

What the **** is this?

[AyePirate]

Niall,

Rednecks rarely attend Ivy League schools.

"W" will only qualify as a redneck if Air Force One
ends up parked on the Whitehouse lawn
up on concrete blocks!

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'd buy that for a dollar

[Pacific]

George W. Bush a redneck. I wish I was redneck like W. Let's see, how much money did he have growing up? First the liberals thrash him for having connections to "Big Oil" and now he's a redneck. So he goes from millionaire with connections to redneck. This is awesome. So if W. can be both a spoiled rich kid and a redneck at the same time...wow, maybe W. will be the first President to be all things to all people. A liberal racing fan...I tell you, that's kind of bass ackwards, because if Al Gore had is way motor racing would be banned. The Earth is in the balance, so...Next election teach the people in Florida how to punch holes in ballots. (And it's highly suspect that they were able to punch holes in all of the other spots. Could it be they were withholding voting for President? If the government were serious about it, they would have had the Psychic Friends Network figure out what the voter's intentions were.)

Anyway, as for NASCAR, I have hated the restrictor plates since 1988. I long for the old Talladega days where true drafting, not Jim Jones Cult suicide racing was king. When Richard Petty was King. I'll take a class Elliott/Earnhardt dual in the 80's over this crap any day. NASCAR was a great series and was true racing. To me, NASCAR in the 80's was the golden age, despite the late 90's being the most financially successful. Back when a small hardcore cult of fans watched every week on ESPN. Now it's going to be on network TV, where it'll be further watered down to casual viewer. UGH.

I like Dale's comments on restrictor plates and drivers who worry they go to fast. He basically says they should go home and take their diapers with them, because racing is about speed. Earnhardt should know, he's gone over 210 for an average lap-time at Talladega. Bill Elliott nearly when 213!! NASCAR got all worried when Bobby Allison nearly went into the crowd. But the key word is nearly. The provisions in 1987 saved lives. Now, with the roof flaps, I don't think you'd really have to worry about it too much. Getting rid of the restrictor plates also causes the field to be spread out. Hardly anybody crashed on their own at Talladega back in the 80's. So the concerns about people hitting the walls so fast are unfounded, plus, perhaps newer wall technology should be used along with the HANS device.

Right now, at many tracks, the racing is very artificial. But NASCAR still puts on good shows on the road courses. Very fun to watch on TV. They've all gotten pretty good at them.

Right now, some of the best racing for stock cars is in the American Speed Association. The new BF Goodrich tires and the Chevy Vortech engines have great durability and has really helped make ASA all that more affordable. Short-track racing is great for the fans. The Bristol night race is still my favorite on the Winston Cup tour. All these 1 1/2 mile tracks and such are a dime a dozen.

I love the straight fights in CART and F1, they aren't close together for the hell of it. In F1, it is especially remarkable with the diverse technology. (So many manufactuers or chassis, engines, etc. Now we have a new tire war.)

[Jaxs]

Having eaten with some of the nicest rednecks you could meet, joined in the Kareoke and generally had a great time, I'll go with the rednecks anytime, and the way they drive, try chasing them throught the country roads, scarey.... but fun.

[Duck]

Niall, why so hostile? I only asked you a question?

[dhc]

Quart,

A redneck is someone who believes the words 'know' and 'no' mean the same thing.

Why aren't "John Andretti/Robby Gordon/Scott Pruet" (I think you mean Pruett) "tearing up the (NASCAR) series?" It could have something to do with 3 second rate CART drivers (I'm being very kind here) becoming 3 second rate NASCAR drivers with 1 second rate NASCAR team (Petty) and 2 third rate teams. In other words, these guys were such bad CART drivers that they couldn't even get a ride with a semi-competitive NASCAR team. If you think that is a harsh assessment consider how many CART races these 3 drivers have won and how many NASCAR races these 3 drivers have won. I'll give you a hint. Even a redneck wouldn't have trouble counting the total on one hand.

By the way, I've been racing since 1979.

David

[Ross Stonefeld]

I wanna say about 6 wins

[dhc]

AyePirate: "Rednecks rarely attend Ivy League schools."

Obviously you didn't attend an Ivy League school. There are plenty of rednecks. They just have wealthy parents.

By the way, there are seperate admission standards for children of wealthy alumni.

David

[dhc]

Ross,

I was just going off the top of my head so I could be mistaken. My recollection was Pruett (2-CART) and John Andretti (2-NASCAR). Has Gordan (Robbie, that is) won in CART or NASCAR?

David

[Don Capps]

Well, I am breaking my vow never to never post on this Forum ever again. Despite many temptations I have managed to successfully resist doing so. However, for whatever reason, I find myself having to say something.

Name-calling is not nice. I am from South Carolina and I did work summer jobs during high school in the mills and later as the janitor in a dress factory. I have attended no end of dirt track races all over the Carolinas, Virginia, Georgia and elsewhere and generally loved them. My first race was at a dirt track -- Lakewood Speedway in Atlanta in 1949. My family, bless their hearts, give you no leeway in guessing where they hail from.

The bantering about of the term "redneck' bothers me. I have no idea what gives many of y'all the right to be so high and mighty and make cruel remarks about folks most of you have never met. True, to know some of them is not necessarily to like them -- -- but few really fit the pattern you seem to use indiscriminately. Interestingly enough, many of my relatives work for companies such as BMW or Michelin or Kubota. They know more about international economics than I ever dreamed about knowing.

I once thought I had what it took to race the stockers, but found it was definitely more difficult than it looks. Ditto for midgets. I also campaigned briefly in SCCA, but there was a perfect match between my money and talent: very little of either one! And I am a pilot and former Airborne Ranger Special Ops type -- bravery wasn't a problem, having a vivid imagination as the consequences was!

While I am not always enthralled with some of the nonsense that NASCAR touts, I do enjoy the series as a whole. Over the years I knew many of the drivers, even working for Tiny Lund at one point and being related to Cale Yarborough sorta gets your interest up. I was also a neighbor to Lee Roy Yarbrough at another point. Heck, I even used to report on the races. Ovals some weekends, Road Atlanta or Sebring others.

However, I also grew up in Europe and met Alberto Ascari at Torino in 1955, a memory I will always cherish. From 1955 until 1984, I generally got to at least one GP a year and often more (except for 1968-1970 when I was in Viet-Nam). I saw Juan Fangio & Stirling Moss race and I also saw Curtis Turner & Tim Flock race, four of the best ever.

I have seen lots of races in lots of series, both live and on the tube. I firmly believe that Momma Gump got it right, life is like a box of chocolates and there is something for everybody out there. If you like F1, great, enjoy it and live long and prosper. Ditto for all the other series. Badmouthing NASCAR doesn't make F1 one lick better just as NASCAR 'fans' don't help their cause by doing the same to other series.

Niall, I fully realize that NASCAR is not your series of choice, which is fine & dandy. But, it must have something going for it because it is huge back in South Carolina. Believe me, if you were to see and experience a race at Darlington -- even on the revised track -- or especially at Bristol or Martinsville, you might get an idea about its appeal.

I am obviously in a very small minority these days since I enjoy many racing series -- NASCAR, CART, IRL, Motorola Cup, ALMS, GP bikes, and so forth -- and while it is a struggle, I even try to be open-minded about F1/FEM.

Well, pardon my pointless rambling, but I had to say something. There are more pieces in the box besides F1/FEM. Try some of them, you might be surprised.

End of soapbox. Out.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by dhc
AyePirate: "Rednecks rarely attend Ivy League schools."

Obviously you didn't attend an Ivy League school. There are plenty of rednecks. They just have wealthy parents.

By the way, there are seperate admission standards for children of wealthy alumni.

David

You're right I didn't attend an Ivy League school.
What's your excuse?;)
I attended the University Of Texas.

Since when did the words "rarely" and "never"
become interchangeable?

[dhc]

AyePirate wrote:

>>"You're right I didn't attend an Ivy League school.
>>What's your excuse?"

Actually I don't need one. I did attend Ivy League schools.

>>I attended the University Of Texas.

I'm sorry. I was born and raised in Oklahoma but I'll be the first to admit that UT is one of the finest state schools in the country and compares favorably to many of the more (so called) prestigious private schools. I seriously considered UT for grad school but I knew the music scene in Austin and 6th Street (it is 6th street, right?) would be way too distracting for graduate work.

>>Since when did the words "rarely" and "never" become
>>interchangeable?

I didn't intend for them to be used interchangeably. I think most people would be surprised at how many rednecks one encounters at some of the "finer" universities. I worked on my PhD in Mathematics at Duke. There were Confederate flags everywhere in the dorms. Women who belonged to feminist groups (my girl friend was one) were regularly harassed. Yeah, the school is in the south but the undergraduate student body comes largely from the northeast. My point is that redneckism (if there is such a word) has more to do with intolerence than with being a fat guy from the South who drives a pickup, has a low income, a low IQ and is missing a significant number of teeth. I personally have encountered more rednecks driving Bimmers than pickups. These people are actually more scary to me because they tend to have money and are more likely to vote.

Don, just for the record:

I was born and raised in Oklahoma.

My grandfather was a cattle rancher and quarter horse breeder and trainer. My father was a jockey. I spent much of my youth working on the ranch and going to horse races.

I have lived a fair portion of my adult life in North Carolina. PhD at Duke (Durham) and later worked in Winston-Salem.

I have met many people in both Oklahoma and North Carolina who were not well educated but were smart, good, honest, friendly people. I look more for these qualities in a friend than where they went to school or how much money they make.

I rarely use the word redneck. I have used it in this thread because it was used early on. I usually refer to the type of person we are calling a redneck as an asshole. Can I say asshole in this forum? If not, sorry.

All of my posts on this thread have been very much with tongue-in-cheek. If I have offended anyone, mea culpa.

David

[Duck]

Well said, dhc! Happy Holidays !

[AyePirate]

Sorry, if we got off on the wrong foot.

Sixth Street has wrecked many a GPA!

I think our terminology may be a bit
different, but I think our dislikes
are very similar.

I believe in tolerance as well.
That goes for fans of other
racing disciplines.
NASCAR in general is not my
cup of tea, but I'm happy for
anyone that gets a kick out of it.
While I think F1 drivers are at the
top of the pyramid, I think it's
a bit over the top to say that
NASCAR is easy.

Merry Christmas Everybody.

[dhc]

Hey, I figured it was all just good natured banter.

As far as I'm concerned motor racing is motor racing. I prefer the series that take place on road courses: F1, ALMS, BTCC, CART (on real road courses). I don't really care for oval racing but NASCAR does put on a pretty good show. In a sense it kind of reminds me of Pro Wrestling (I like wrestling, by the way) in that it's structured to provide maximum entertainment value. I'm sure the top NASCAR drivers, had they chosen a different form of racing to pursue (Tony Stewart comes to mind) would probably have been successful. I think the days of Mario, Parnelli, A.J. and Gurney jumping back and forth between Indy cars, Stock cars, Trans-Am, LeMans and even F1 are long gone.

I also think the Ivies are overrated which is why I like to tweak them any chance I get. I believe you can get a good education anywhere if you're motivated. I honestly don't believe undergrads at Yale (back to W. ), are any brighter than those at Duke, Carolina, Texas, Oklahoma etc. It's a bit different at the grad level but that's a whole different world.

I think these F1 vs NASCAR debates are kind of pointless really. I mean F1 is obviously superior! You never said anything that even came close to ticking me off, Pirate. I think I was kind of vague in one of my posts and I think it looked like I was saying one thng when I meant the opposite. I think there were a few people that did get a little hot in some of the earlier posts. Maybe thats why I joined in, to see if I could stoke the fires a bit.

I hope this makes some sense. It's very late here and I've just been typing off the top of my head so no telling what I've said or if any of it makes sense.

AyePirate, Duck, anyone I insulted (I was trying to needle Quart a bit but he never answered) and everyone I have yet to insult (I'll get to you in due time),

Good night, have a safe, healthy and happy holiday season, and enjoy the coming of the new milinium.

David

[Quart]

dhc: You'd have a very rough time needling this redneck.. My skin is far to thick! The Corp does that and it taught me more than any university...
I had to use the CART drivers as an example of drivers switching to stockers later in their career and these were the only I could come up with (pruett/gordon/andretti) Its not my fault they never tore CART up(5wins total), however all are very talented drivers(as Gordon should have won the indy500/pruetts road course record in different cars). I only hoped that some would come to realize that driving anything fast or on edge is in no way "easy".. I think I would agree on most points with you except "second rate drivers" But i can agree to disagree with an intelligent thoughtful type as yourself...

[John B]

In answer to an above question, Robbie Gordon has two Cart wins, in 1995 at Phoenix and Detroit. He's come close several times in IRL and had a couple good NASCAR road races.

[dhc]

Quart, I'm glad to hear you weren't offended by my post. I'll have to admit my opinions expressed last night were a little over the top. I have respect for any driver who can make a living racing no matter what type of car or track.

I considered taking a shot at a pro road racing series in the mid 80's. The budget we put together was $100k+ and that was just to run the series. To have been really competitive would have been $300K+. That's a lot of money to generate each year hoping that you'll get picked up by an established team in one of the major racing series. I decided to go to college instead and race for fun. For me it was the right decision and I've never second guessed it.

I believe Andretti/Gordan/Pruett are all good drivers. My comments about "second rate" were intended as a joke within the context of the discussion last night. I do believe that racing a car at the limit, no matter what type of car or track, is very difficult. While I've only raced on road courses I have tested a couple of times on ovals. There's nothing quite like drifting a car through a turn, seeing the wall rush up at you and knowing that you can't drop a wheel or two off the edge of the track if you've over cooked it a bit.

David

[dhc]

John B,

Thanks for correcting my mistake about Robbie Gordan. I had forgotten about his CART wins. That's what I get for not checking the facts before shooting my mouth off.

David

[Pacific]

Robby Gordon should have a decent year this season. He's now with the Morgan-McClure Motorsports team. In his first test at Greenville-Pickens he noted how much more power the number 4 Kodak Chevy had than his old Fords that he owned himself. Now that Robby can concentrate on racing and has better equipment, I expect him to contend for some wins this season. I think Robby is very talented.

Scott Pruett appears as if he will lose his ride to Ricky Craven. That kind of sours me on PPI. Here he takes a guy from CART and then ditches him. I really don't think a whole lot of the 32 Tide Ford's failure was Scott's fault. He was a rookie driver, but with a rookie team. PPI has acquired more experienced crew members now, but...it's too late for Scott Pruett. Pruett will probably not get another shot.

John Andretti has two problems. The first is that Petty Enterprises' engine program is weak right now. Kyle Petty has stated such and feels bad for John Andretti. He also no doubt wasn't happy with his own car, the 44 car. Of course now Kyle drives Adam's old car. The second problem is Andretti sure gets in his fair share of wrecks. He caused that accident at the end of the Talledega race in October...I was not happy. I hate seeing the STP/Cheerios 43 disrespected. Now, the 44 car features Buckshot Jones. So...we could have wrecks-o-plenty at PE.

But seriously, Robby Gordon will be somebody to keep at eye on this season. The Morgan-McClure team was decently fast at many races, but "they done blowed up" a lot. If they can solve that and MMM has their classis horsepower, Robby could start off on the right foot at Daytona. Robby is a good young driver for a team though. He's a good driver, has some character to him, and has gone through the ownership aspect of racing, so...

[dhc]

Pacific,

I agree with you about Robbie Gordan. If he could ever get completely focused on one series and just driving in that series I think he could be very good. I hope he can work well with his new team and have some good results.

Yeah, Scott Pruett was in a no-win situation last year. I'd really like to see him go to the ALMS series. He has experience with overpowered cars (TransAm/CART/NASCAR) and is definitely quick on a road course. ALMS being a bit more endurance oriented, IMO rewards consistancy a bit more than blinding speed. Scott in a Panoz? Cool!

It's sad to say but PE is just a shadow of it's former self. Growing up I remember how The King (No, not Elvis! The REAL King) would dominate the sport. John probably gets as much as there is to get out of those cars, when he doesn't hit something anyway. I think John has the temprement of his uncle and cousin. He's sometimes overly aggressive but he's on a very narrow track with 40+ other cars.

Say it ain't so! Buckshot Jones in the 44? Can you imagine how much repair work PE is going to be doing this season? I'll bet they're hiring. If not now, surely after the first few races.

David

[John B]

Pacific,

A few years back Morgan-McLure was one of if not the best road racing outfit with Ernie Irvan driving. It'll be interesting to see how R. Gordon does at Sears and Watkins Glen - maybe battling his namesake Jeff for a win or two...

[Ali_G]

Duck: Good point, I'll stop the bickering.

Don: My believe is that NASCAR is not up there with F1 and CART and ALMS.

Often I have said to myself that I will try to watch a NASCAR race. Yet after about 5 minutes I have fallen asleep or I am watching something else. Its just the way I am. This isn't just eh view of an F1 fan. Over at seventhgear.com (CART Website) the feeling against NASCAR is even worse.

Niall

[Paste]

I'm going to admit that I only read the first few posts, but I totally agree with Todd on this. Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt Jr are two amazing young drivers.

Todd, that's a great quote by Earnhardt. I didn't realize that that's how he felt!!

[Pacific]

John- I liked Morgan-McClure back when they had Rick Wilson. That's when they first got Kodak, in 1986. That was the first year Wilson raced for them. Actually, Rick Wilson and the Morgan-McClure team started showing a decent amount in 1987. Then in 1988 they started running up front. I was cheering so hard for Rick to win the Firecracker 400 over Bill Elliott...but all old NASCAR fans know how that ended. But Rick was pretty fast for a while. Then he eventually got booted for Phil Parsons, which didn't work. That was in 1990 and that didn't work out well, and that's when Ernie Irvan was brought in. Irvan started that year with the Donlavey team. And Donlavey's team had fallen a lot since the Red Baron/Ken Schrader years, especially 1987. Donlavey's team saw a bit of a resurgence with Heilig-Meyers. Dick Trickle came so close to winning. They were so fast on the superspeedways. But things with Bobby Hillin, Mike Wallace, and Dick Trickle never quite worked out for a win for the 90 car. So Jody Ridley has their only win still. I'm hoping the 90 team keeps Hut Stricklin. Don't change what ain't broke. The only driver out there available with a winning record in Winston Cup in Geoffrey Bodine, but teams seem leery with Geoffrey.

The McClure team also did decent with Sterling Marlin and Bobby Hamilton can't be faulted for hardly any of the team's failure.

As for Petty Enterprises. It folded for a while back in 1985. I believe Richard switched to Mike Curb Racing in 1983. Well, the team continued with Kyle at the wheel for a while, but he eventually went to the Wood Brothers. But then in 1986 Petty Enterprises was re-opened. The 1987 season was actually pretty good for PE, but in 1988, the team didn't really master the new Pontiacs at all. I mean, at Daytona they were racing with Phil Barkdoll, Eddie Bierschwale, A.J. Foyt, etc. No offense to any of those guys, but they were not Daytona front runners. (A.J. had also fallen from grace Winston Cup wise. I remember when A.J. and Alan Kulwicki wrecked on during a caution!) Although, PE wasn't too fast on the superspeedways in 1987 either, but they really had it going on the short-tracks and Richard raced the road courses well...actually, at the summer Riverside race Richard started, but since he had broken ribs from Dover he had Joe Ruttman run the car. And boy did Joe do a good job. Petty Enterprises really only started improving when Bobby Hamilton came in. Now, it wasn't Bobby so much as the team was improving.

Hopefully Petty Enterprises can get it together with Dodge. Buckshot Jones was brought in because he's fast, he does have some Winston Cup experience, NBS experience, but also because he has Georgia Pacific sponsorship. Buckshot has talent...he just needs to harness it. It took Tim Richmond a while too. (Not that I think Buckshot will be nearly as good as Richmond. Richmond was unreal, except on the short-tracks. He wasn't bad on the short-tracks, but...Earnhardt and DW really won championships on the short tracks. And of course Rusty Wallace came on the scene and he is an awesome driver. (His luck on the superspeedways is horrid.) Of course, now NASCAR only has two traditional short-tracks. Nashville was eliminated in the first half of the 80's (After 84 I think) and of course North Wilkesboro is done and Richmond was redone in 1988. I remember them showing the pictures of Richard Petty on the bulldozer beginning the whole thing.

When we talk NASCAR, my knowledge historically goes much further back, for I've been a NASCAR fan since 1985. I've really only been an F1 fan since 1994. I was always aware of it, and watched it a bit, but it wasn't until 1994 that I really diversified my motorsports interests.

[Duck]

Niall, don't get me wrong..... NASCAR/Winston Cup OR BUSCH Grand National is NOT my cup of tea. However, if on a Sunday afternoon, after watching F1 in the morning, should there be no C.A.R.T. race, I'll watch a Cup race every now and then - especially on a Superspeedway. Yeah, those tanks weigh a damn ton, and they're as basic as basic can get, BUT I have to hand it to those guys who jostle side-by-side, back-and-forth at Talledega, Daytona, Pocono, Fontana, etc. It HAS to take some serious stones to control those beasts at 195 m.p.h.. I absolutely ABHOR though, restrictor plates - basically reducing the pack to one, extended freight train where the lucky guys in the slipstream get the break of the tow on the last lap.
I MUST admit however, I've never attended a Cup race in person. I actually think it might be a kick - especially at Bristol (try getting a ticket - good luck!).
HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE !!

[RiverRunner]

Tim Richmond in the Folgers car was one of the best drivers I ever had the pleasure to see.He had Riverside at his mercy which was a very tough track for those of you who never saw a race there.
NASCAR doesn't do a whole lot for me,I used to like it when they ran the road course at Riverside and never missed a race there by them,but I got a peek at the new,updated version at Fontana and it was one of the most boring days I've ever spent at a race track.Since season tickets are all thats available at Fontana,I try to find a NASCAR fan that won't use his CART tickets to attend and buy his for the 500 miler CART puts on.

NASCAR won't get two cents outta me personally but I'll watch Daytona still.As for the race fixin' that allegedly occurs in NASCAR,I'll give you punters a good bet,look for Dodge to win the Daytona 500 as a welcome gift from NASCAR.

[Jackdaw]

Consarn it, by the time I show up to the flame war everyone has made up and is patting each other on the back! So I will only make two peripheral comments:

1. It serves Tide PPI right for the way they gave Ricky Rudd the boot prior to last season.

2. It's good to see Chrysler back in the Winston Cup fray. Perhaps I am biased because I own a Dodge , but additional manufacturers can only help a series. Mopar Power!

[Pacific]

Ricky Rudd should thank PPI for helping shut his team down. This way he can race with a competitive team, like Robert Yates Racing. Ricky's one of the finest drivers in NASCAR. Very underrated. This has always been true.

As for Dodge, I can only hope it helps Petty Enterprises regain the magic. One sad note is that Oldsmobile is being discontinued. I really liked the look of the Olds Cutlass NASCARs in 1991. This isn't an immediate thing, but it will be done over a couple years I guess. Of course, Mopar eliminated Plymouth. Corporately both moves made sense for GM and Mopar respectively. GM also discontinued Geo, which was short lived really.

But the old days of Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, Olds, and Buick were nice. And before that you had Chrysler (Buddy Arrington ran one until mid-1985!!) and Mercury. Of course, in the early days, MANY brands had cars now and again. Of course Petty had Plymouths for a while. The Dodges have an interesting look to them.

Dale Jarrett's UPS 88 needs to be redesigned. They need more brown, less white, and perhaps a slightly darker brown. Have it so it matches the UPS trucks a bit better. A brown car ain't going to look THAT great no matter what, but they could maybe make it look mean...I don't know. Although, the simplicity of Brett Bodine's paintjob for 2001 is kind of interesting. Not sure what to think. We'll see what happens with that I guess. I may never adjust to a non-STP 43. But I will easily adjust the continuation of the Sprint PCS 45. We miss you Adam.

[Joe Fan]

Ah, surprise, surprise! The off season has officially begun because we have our first NASCAR vs. F1 thread. Ha Ha Ha! Sorry I have bigger fishes to fry at the moment than to worry 'bout all dat NASTYCAR bashin' and nonsense.

However, I will take this opportunity to say that I am very proud of Dale Earnhardt Sr. and Jr. for taking part in the Daytona 24 Hours. And BGN driver Lyndon Amick too since he is going to race as well in a lower category. As the second richest driver in the world, money cannot be a motivating factor to Dale Sr. so I am sure that he is sincere in his statement that it has been a long time ambition of his to race in the Daytona 24 Hours.

I find it odd that some people here in the past stated that NASCAR drivers can't be viewed as some of the best drivers in the world because they don't compete against the rest of the world's best. When it comes to paychecks, TV revenue and attendance, Dale Sr. competes in the pinnacle closed wheel and stock car series in the world---NASCAR Winston Cup. Now he is willing to step outside his series and compete in a big international race(Note a couple of years ago, NASCAR Winston Cup driver Ernie Irvan competed in the event). Now where is Schumacher, Hakkinen or Villenueve? These drivers should have the status in their team to be allowed to compete in something like this if they really wanted to. That is if they had the ambition to verify their status as a complete driver--one who has the balls to race at night.

Whether or not Dale Sr. or Jr performs well in the event, it is a victory for the good ole boys in my mind. They could have stayed home and counted their money like the F1 boys. I believe having such a high profile American driver like the Intimidator race in this race will help raise awareness and appreciation of road racing in this country. Especially if he does well.[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 12-25-2000]

[argos]

Originally posted by Joe Fan
Dale Earnhardt Sr. ..... the second richest driver in the world?

Now where is Schumacher, Hakkinen or Villenueve? [p][Edited by Joe Fan on 12-25-2000]

Dale Sr second richest driver in the world? And you base this on ..... ?

Where are Schumacher, Hakkinen and Villenueve? I'm sure they are all waiting until they are in their 50's before driving the 24 hours of Daytona for the first time.

[argos]

Originally posted by Jackdaw
I own a Dodge

I know how painful that can be.