25 replies to this topic

[TecnoRacing]

Just curious here...
Wondering what would be the smallest displacement normally-aspirated 12 cylinder engine that has ever been developed specifically for a motor racing application?

[fredeuce]

I'll start the bidding with the 1964 F1 Honda with transverse mount 1.5 litre V12

[helioseism]

1964 Ferrari flat 12 1.5 litre ties the Honda.

[Rob G]

The Ferrari flat-12 F1 engine from 1964-65 was just a tiny bit smaller than the Honda, by about five and a half cc.

Edited by Rob G, 30 September 2010 - 05:11.

[Tim Murray]

Cappa's 1926 1049 cc V12 supercharged Itala.



Edit: Sorry - just spotted the 'normally-aspirated' stipulation. This is still an amazing little engine, though.

Edited by Tim Murray, 30 September 2010 - 06:19.

[Gary Davies]

Sourcing the bore and stroke from this link, our old friend pi x r squared x h gives

1490.2272 cm/2 for the Ferrari and
1495.8774 cm/2 for the Honda.

Edited by Gary Davies, 30 September 2010 - 07:35.

[Duc-Man]

OT!
Moto Guzzi had a racebike with a 500cc V8 engine in the mid-fifties.

[BrendanMcF]

Must be this one! A working one-third scale 312PB Ferrari.

103cc flat 12, 8bhp

[Lee Nicolle]

Sourcing the bore and stroke from this link, our old friend pi x r squared x h gives

1490.2272 cm/2 for the Ferrari and
1495.8774 cm/2 for the Honda.

So the Honda is the big block!!

[David McKinney]

A working one-third scale 312PB Ferrari[/url].

103cc flat 12, 8bhp

So a full-scale Ferrari 312PB was 309cc?

Edited by David McKinney, 30 September 2010 - 09:07.

[Tim Murray]

The dimensions of the full-size engine were 78.5 mm bore and 51.5 mm stroke, giving a capacity of 2991 cc. Dividing these dimensions by 3 gives a bore of 26.2 mm,a stroke of 17.2 mm and a capacity of 111.3 cc. The dimensions actually used for the model were 24 mm bore and 19 mm stroke, so it wasn't quite to scale.

[wenoopy]

So a full-scale Ferrari 312PB was 309cc?

Wairarapa College has a lot to answer for. Because it's a cubic measurement, you should have multiplied capacity by 27(3x3x3). That would have given you 2781 cc. But 110.77 cc x 27 would get you 2991 cc if anyone cares.

Did Berardo Taraschi run his Ferrari Special at least once as a u/s V12 1.5 Formula 2 in 1957, or was that just what was written on the entry form, and performance didn't give any cause for query.

[David McKinney]

Wairarapa College has a lot to answer for

It was a long time ago

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
It was a long time ago

Do you say that with relief, disbelief or pain?

And for the purposes of this thread, maybe you could confirm that the 1.5-litre Ferrari engine that Dick Cobden had (mentioned in a thread a few days ago...) had the option of normal or compressed aspiration.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Maserati for the 1,5 litre F1.

[Dick Willis]

Do you say that with relief, disbelief or pain?

And for the purposes of this thread, maybe you could confirm that the 1.5-litre Ferrari engine that Dick Cobden had (mentioned in a thread a few days ago...) had the option of normal or compressed aspiration.

Normally compressed, Ray. The 2 litre ran both ways at different times, u/s in European F2 and blown when it was brought to Aust.

[Roger Clark]

The 1.5-litre Honda had four valves per cylinder and had, I think, the smallest cylinders of any car racing engine with this feature. Were the valves the smallest ever used on a serious car racing engine? However, it also had the largest cylinders of any racing engine Honda had built up to that point.

[David Birchall]

Cappa's 1926 1049 cc V12 supercharged Itala.



Edit: Sorry - just spotted the 'normally-aspirated' stipulation. This is still an amazing little engine, though.

It also appears to be front wheel drive and four wheel independent suspension---in 1926!?

[Allan Lupton]

It also appears to be front wheel drive and four wheel independent suspension---in 1926!?

Not that suitable for racing as they found out at the Alvis at much the same time - although the first fwd Alvis had a de Dion front end, they were ifs by 1927

[Bjorn Kjer]

The Maserati Tipo 8/F1 1,5litre V12 60 degrees transverse engine, was shown in 1964 , but no one was interested so , it never got into a chassis.

[arttidesco]

Not for racing but at 87 cc 5.307 CUI this must be getting close to the limit of what is possible details in Engish here.

[Bloggsworth]

So a full-scale Ferrari 312PB was 309cc?

Isn't 1/3 scale a divide by 3 cubed? 3000/27=111ish

[Tim Murray]

See posts 11 and 12, Bloggsy.

[Sisyphus]

I think the Rotorvic 1.5L V-12 made from 6 Ariel motorcycle engines deserves a mention, although it was apparently a 2 stroke. It used to be in the Donnington (when I saw it in the 90's) but is in Utah now (?) according to a TNF thread.

Also, although not a V-12, the University of Western Washington CNC'ed a 554cc V-8 (with 32 valves) for their Formula SAE car circa 2002. Their website claims a redline of 16,500 rpm. If I remember correctly, the car got built without a self starter for some reason so did not meet the rules and get to run in competition but it is a fantastic achievement for a group of University students never the less.

[Allan Lupton]

I think the Rotorvic 1.5L V-12 made from 6 Ariel motorcycle engines deserves a mention, although it was apparently a 2 stroke. It used to be in the Donnington (when I saw it in the 90's) but is in Utah now (?) according to a TNF thread.

Since the Ariel (B)Leader produced 17 h.p. from its two 54mm × 54mm two-stroke cylinders I thought at the time there must be an easier route to 100 b.h.p. By the time that motor was in the (unfaired) Arrow it was tuned up to 20 h.p. so 6 might have given 120 so maybe worthwhile after all.

[Bloggsworth]

Since the Ariel (B)Leader produced 17 h.p. from its two 54mm × 54mm two-stroke cylinders I thought at the time there must be an easier route to 100 b.h.p. By the time that motor was in the (unfaired) Arrow it was tuned up to 20 h.p. so 6 might have given 120 so maybe worthwhile after all.

But Ron, unsurprisingly, couldn't keep all 6 engines in sync, so all sorts of contrary oscillations were set up in the single output shaft, so like the H16 BRM, it was fast while it ran, which wasn't often or for long. Being only 17 when I saw it in his garage, I didn't question the wisdom of not using shock absorbing centres in the transfer gears.