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Indianapolis 500 - the first 100 years


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#151 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 00:34

Brings a Hans Bellmer quote to mind but that is way off topic, thanks Tim, from what I have read of the Leonard Williams account I can't see any Lotus connection at all, though there is a teasing hint on one of the pages that Frank Kurtis had some drawings of a rear engine car back in 1958, not long after Cooper started to make an impact, I wonder if this is where the John Zink modified Lotus myth came about ?



There was a fourh Thompson car in 1962, built for Jim Kimberly and I suspect that is what we are seeing in the picture. For 1963, Kimberly had a copy built, by, I believe, Don Borth. Neither car ever qualified at Indy but I recall seeing one or the other at Milwuakee in 1963. On another forum, whose name I will not repeat here, T54 explains that Kimberly loaned the Brabham Cooper to Thompson before the 1962 cars were built.

As to "cheesewhiz" and Wisconsin, whatever it is, cheesewhiz is NOT something those of us proudly located here in the Badger State, will tolerate being attributed to our dairy industry.

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#152 Flat Black 84

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:23

What about Velveeta?

:lol:


#153 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:30

What about Velveeta?

:lol:


That's from California.

#154 arttidesco

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 06:40

There is an anomaly on this link that might shed light on the forth Thompson RE chassis

For '62 listed are

#34 Thompson Ent Gurney

#35 Harvey Aluminium Cheesbourgh /Daigh

#33 Harvey Aluminium Fairman

#33 Kimberley Buick Rachwitz

Is it possible that Kimberly took over ownership of the #33 during the course of the meeting, or is there an error in the listing of entrant for Fairman in the #33 ?

#155 arttidesco

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:48

Bill Cheesbourgh (always a good answer when it comes to weird cars! ;))


Message received..... and understood! :stoned:

#156 Amphicar

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:30

There is an anomaly on this link that might shed light on the forth Thompson RE chassis

For '62 listed are

#34 Thompson Ent Gurney

#35 Harvey Aluminium Cheesbourgh /Daigh

#33 Harvey Aluminium Fairman

#33 Kimberley Buick Rachwitz

Is it possible that Kimberly took over ownership of the #33 during the course of the meeting, or is there an error in the listing of entrant for Fairman in the #33 ?

Another quote from the Arneson book:

“Teaming with British chassis designer John Crosthwaite, who brought Mickey’s first Indy design to life, and a group led by chief mechanic Fritz Voigt, engine builder Bob Bubenik, fabricator Don Borth and mechanic Jack Sutton, Mickey began building three cars for the 1962 race. Kleenex millionaire James H “Gentleman Jim” Kimberly purchased one of the cars to campaign separately.”


This site http://racing-refere...anapolis_500/UO indicates that the Thompson cars were:

#33 Keith Rachwitz

#34 Dan Gurney

#35 Chuck Daigh, Bill Cheesburgh

No mention of Jack Fairman - though elsewhere I have seen it reported that he attempted to qualify a front-engined Connaught in 1962 - and just to add to the confusion, here is a photo that purports to be of Fairman in car #33! https://www.greenfie...id=7572636_7814

#157 Jim Thurman

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 18:48

That's from California.

Velveeta...no, it isn't. I know there's somewhat of a rivalry between Wisconsin and California dairymen, but c'mon :)

Edited by Jim Thurman, 12 May 2011 - 18:50.


#158 RA Historian

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 19:06

Velveeta...no, it isn't. I know there's somewhat of a rivalry between Wisconsin and California dairymen, but c'mon :)

Appears no state wishes to take the credit (or the blame). And I am from Wisconsin...
Tom

#159 Amphicar

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 19:22

Appears no state wishes to take the credit (or the blame). And I am from Wisconsin...
Tom

You're looking too far west - according to this http://www.80scheese.com/ "Velveeta is Penn State's number one party band" or if you're talking about cheese (sic), Wikipedia says that "It was first made in 1918 by Swiss immigrant Emil Frey of the Monroe Cheese Company in Monroe, New York."

Edited by Amphicar, 12 May 2011 - 19:26.


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#160 Flat Black 84

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 19:56

Who woulda thunk TNF such a haven for crypto-cheese snobs?

:stoned:

Man, there's nothing better than a big tub o' Velveeta-laden nachos or chile con queso when out at the dirt track on a Friday night. Just be sure to winnow out the larger hunks of clay that wind up in your repast.

#161 lanciaman

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:08

Here's some background on the first 50 years, when Perfect Circle piston rings was a vital supplier to "big car" racing and the 500. It has been suggested that the 500 might not have survived without the support, in those early days, from vendors like PC, Firestone, Ford and several others. The future CEO of PC, the blind engineer Ralph Teetor (inventor of Cruise Control) attended the first Indy race in 1909, the first 500 mile race in 1911, and many others. His hearing was so keen he could tell the nature of engine troubles as he heard them. He was co-chief steward of the race one year.

There's more here: www.indy500hagerstown.com

Edited by lanciaman, 12 May 2011 - 20:10.


#162 Collombin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:15

no mention of any #85 at all, so maybe it never made a qualifying run because it was destroyed by persons yet to be definitively ascertained ?


Destroyed by Cheesbourg, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I believe Pedro Rodriguez drove the car too.

Edited by E.B., 12 May 2011 - 20:16.


#163 Bob Riebe

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 16:57

Appears no state wishes to take the credit (or the blame). And I am from Wisconsin...
Tom

Both are now owned by Kraft, and both have been reformulated, although Velveeta can no longer be called a cheese spread, and now must be called a cheese product.

I would bet the originals tasted better than the reformulated versions.

One of the food shows, showed that Cheez Whiz is a standard on some Philly Cheese Steak sandwiches in Philly.

My cousiin who is, and this is no joke, afraid of driving in big cities, will drive hundreds of miles to get fresh cheese from Wisc. It makes a good road trip, plus that is about the only way now to be sure to find good hang DRIED chubs of sausage.


#164 RA Historian

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 23:32

I would bet the originals tasted better than the reformulated versions.

My cousin who is, and this is no joke, afraid of driving in big cities, will drive hundreds of miles to get fresh cheese from Wisc. It makes a good road trip, plus that is about the only way now to be sure to find good hang DRIED chubs of sausage.

Bob, I am sure you are right about that! Reformulated; yuck!

Now we are getting way OT, but as an aside, I had my first Road America bratwurst of the year today!

Tom

#165 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:23

Bob, I am sure you are right about that! Reformulated; yuck!

Now we are getting way OT, but as an aside, I had my first Road America bratwurst of the year today!

Tom


Lucky guy! Between the ugly weather in Madison and some work pressures, I did not go. I'll just have to have two doubles at BRIC, both days I'll be there.

As to Wisconsin and cheese, early out of law school, I had a case involving a Chicago piazza company. They'd run afoul of our Dept of AGRICULTURE, TRADE and consumer protection for using artifical cheese in their pizzas and not labeling them as "artificial pizza" because, as we all know, real pizzas have real cheese.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 14 May 2011 - 01:24.


#166 just me again

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:53

Having never been to Indy, my favorite moments is reading Bufords tales here at TNF and Smoking Yunick tales in his book.

Bjørn

#167 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:55

Bob, I am sure you are right about that! Reformulated; yuck!

Now we are getting way OT, but as an aside, I had my first Road America bratwurst of the year today!

Tom


Although I can have brats any day I like here in Germany, the one I will be eating at Milwaukee this July will be special... :)

#168 arttidesco

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 09:44

Thanks to every one who contributed to my Trackburner and Thompson bolgs.

Here some more pics

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Front row Clark, Marshman and Ward in 1964

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and Lee Roy Yarbrough in Jim Robbins Eagle in 1969.

All photos by Ed Arnaudin posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin

I have seen #67 listed as a Vollstedt but Lee Roy Yarbrough's Jim Robbins car looks like a 1968 Eagle to me, does any one know it's history before or after the 1969 Indy 500 ?

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses :-)

#169 Amphicar

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:54

Thanks to every one who contributed to my Trackburner and Thompson bolgs.

I have seen #67 listed as a Vollstedt but Lee Roy Yarbrough's Jim Robbins car looks like a 1968 Eagle to me, does any one know it's history before or after the 1969 Indy 500 ?

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses :-)

Arti, this site: http://racing-refere...anapolis_500/UO shows Lee Roy Yarbrough as driving a Jim Robins entered Vollstedt Ford in the 1967 Indy 500 with the number 67 - and here is a photo of it:

Posted Image

It doesn't look like an Eagle to me (look at the shape of the nose opening) - and it certainly isn't a 1968 Eagle!

Here: http://racing-refere...anapolis_500/UO Yarbrough is shown as driving a #67 Jim Robbins Eagle Ford in the 1969 race. However, the #67 car in your photo clearly has a turbo Offy engine and the fact that the racing-reference chart records him as retiring with a turbocharger problem makes me think that it should say Eagle Offy. However, the official Indy 500 website records Yarbrough as driving an Vollstedt Ford in 1969: http://www.indianapo...ults/?year=1969.



#170 arttidesco

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:16

Thanks Amphicar can't get all of your links to work, but here is why I think the three photos taken in 1969 by Ed are of a '68 Eagle

Just to clarify it is the history of the car in Ed's 3 photos post 168 that I am looking to find.

#171 B Squared

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 13:12

However, the #67 car in your photo clearly has a turbo Offy engine


Really? Sure looks like the Turbo-Ford configuration that I saw countless times as a kid.

The Jack C. Fox book, The Illustrated History of the Indianapolis 500, properly lists the car as a Vollstedt-Turbo Ford as does the very accurate entry list in the C.Lee Norquest 1967 Novi Story Race Supplement.

Edited by B Squared, 14 May 2011 - 13:13.


#172 RA Historian

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 22:01

Although I can have brats any day I like here in Germany, the one I will be eating at Milwaukee this July will be special... :)

Milwaukee this July? Michael, are you coming to Millers at the Mile? If so, I will see you there!

Will you be staying around a week for the Road America Historics with Brian Redman the following weekend?
Tom

#173 Michael Ferner

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 08:43

Not cast in stone yet, but that's the plan, yeah! :) Unfortunately, I'll need to back in Deutschland the following weekend. :(

#174 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:13

Hi again,

That'll be the John Zink turbine (an old Lotus?), one of the cars that Dan Gurney drove in 1962. I can't recall if anyone else drove it, as the helmet colour is confusing me if this is Dan?

By the way, I now believe the 2 drivers (in 1962) of the Studebakers in the photos you posted earlier are Luther Johnson in car 34, and Cliff Bergere in his original mount (car 22).

It may well be Earl Cooper driving the Stutz too, as he was at the Speedway that year.



Posted Image

At the risk of repeating myself thanks to an e-mail address found by Tim Murray, I wrote to Len Williams the man from Boeing who worked on the Trackburner a couple of days ago asking if he had any recollection of any Lotus content in the #52 Boeing 502 powered Trackburner shown in the photo above.

Here is the response he honoured me with just now :-

"As regards the chassis, I guess you could say it was a second derivative of a Frank Curtis chassis. It was constructed in it's entirety by Denny Moore with the big decisions (rear engine) by Jack Zink and engine installation details (engine mounts, instruments, fuel system, etc by myself. Denny's construction experience was with the Curtis roadster and the AJ Watson modifications of the Curtis roadster. He was of the "good old boys" school of design and not too enthused with gas turbine engines and rear engine race cars but he was a meticulous craftsman and did an excellent job on the "Trackburner".

The car was well underway when I arrived in Tulsa with the turbine engine. to the best of my knowlege, there were no Lotus components used in the car's construction. The suspension was Troutman Barnes.

We did considerable development at the Zink ranch ( spring rate, sway bar sizing, shock absorber settings, caster camber settings, both front and rear, along with the engine controls in a short period of time. Setting a car up for high speed left hand turns is quite different from setting it up for road racing."

In the light of these comments I presume all reference to Lotus with respect to the #52 Trackburner is merely a miss use of the manufacturers name to refer to rear engine vehicle.... unless anyone else any other evidence ?

#175 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:48

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Photo by Ed Arnaudin, posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin.

I understand that when McLaren first took to the Indianapolis track in 1970, Bruce, Denny and Chris ran in line astern during a practice session, that must have been some sight.

#176 Collombin

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 19:10

In the light of these comments I presume all reference to Lotus with respect to the #52 Trackburner is merely a miss use of the manufacturers name to refer to rear engine vehicle.... unless anyone else any other evidence ?


Thanks Ralph, my query was based entirely what Dan Gurney had been quoted as saying about the car. Sounds like he was mistaken, or even misquoted.


#177 RA Historian

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 22:06

Thanks Ralph, my query was based entirely what Dan Gurney had been quoted as saying about the car. Sounds like he was mistaken, or even misquoted.

Not the first time Big Dan's memory has misfired. Not saying anything against Dan, but he has been know to have varying recollections of events decades ago.

#178 arttidesco

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 00:19

Thanks Ralph, my query was based entirely what Dan Gurney had been quoted as saying about the car. Sounds like he was mistaken, or even misquoted.


Pleasure EB, I love a good mystery, sad that this one turned out to be a myth :wave:

#179 arttidesco

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 12:46

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Photos by Ed Arnaudin posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin.

I believe the chassis type used by Bobby Unser to win in 1975 Indy 500 is 7400 does anyone know the chassis number or even if it had one ?



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#180 Gatmo

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 19:45

The #77 Norm Olsen Special was out on track testing at Mallory this morning, what a piece of kit it was too. A quick search on the net says it qualified in 30th postion for the 1950 500 and was driven by Jackie Holmes.

Maybe Giraffe could post a picture as he was snapping merrily away?!

Edited by Gatmo, 18 May 2011 - 19:46.


#181 T54

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 22:31

I believe the chassis type used by Bobby Unser to win in 1975 Indy 500 is 7400 does anyone know the chassis number or even if it had one ?

It did, and indeed it is the very same car that Bobby used the whole 1974 year, earning a USAC national championship, wrenched by Wayne Leary and his "three musketeers".
This is the car at the Collier museum today. 74-05, the Speedway car. 74-04 was Bobby's short-track car and was sold at the end of 1976.
The car began its life at the beginning of 1974 painted in white, with Olsonite sponsorship, and was repainted in light blue when Ozzie Olson pulled out at the end of the year because of the rather brutal recession of 1974 engineered by our good friends at OPEC. Earle Jorgensen then accepted to fund a heavier part of the needed monies to run the car, but the whole team was still on a shoestring budget compared to several others with prominent names.


#182 arttidesco

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 22:42

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Photo by Ed Arnaudin posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin.

1975 Row 3 Rutherford, Vuckovich Jr, Walther

Thanks for the info on 74-05 T54 :up:

Edited by arttidesco, 20 May 2011 - 22:43.


#183 kingswood

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:55

Having never been to Indy, my favorite moments is reading Bufords tales here at TNF and Smoking Yunick tales in his book.

Bjørn


I agree Bufords posts were nearly always interesting and informative It's a shame he isn't around here anymore, imho

#184 arttidesco

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:25

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Rick Mears PC10 warm up laps 1982,

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Chip Ganassi, 1983

Photo's by Ed Arnaudin posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin.

Buford proved a source of valuable info on the Wildcats which appeared on the Wildcat thread does anyone know what has happened to him ?

#185 Giraffe

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:45

Buford is still lurking on TNF according to his profile, but a bit like Don Capps (who appears to have left for good) joined the exodus of disgruntled old-timers some 18 months ago.

#186 arttidesco

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:21

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#187 Giraffe

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:32

The #77 Norm Olsen Special was out on track testing at Mallory this morning, what a piece of kit it was too. A quick search on the net says it qualified in 30th postion for the 1950 500 and was driven by Jackie Holmes.

Maybe Giraffe could post a picture as he was snapping merrily away?!


Apologies Wayne, I missed this request.......

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2011-05-18
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By giraffe138 at 2011-05-18
Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2011-05-18

#188 ZOOOM

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 12:24

I have always enjoyed Indy, havn't missed but once since 1956...
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Dan Gurney in the Eagle "Santa Anna" at indy during the race.

ZOOOM

#189 Flat Black 84

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 13:44

Anybody know the engine-chassis combo Tim Richmond drove in his rookie year at Indy in 1980?

#190 RA Historian

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 14:56

Anybody know the engine-chassis combo Tim Richmond drove in his rookie year at Indy in 1980?

Penske PC-7/Cosworth

#191 arttidesco

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 12:34

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1960 Kurtis Epperly Q 16th F 10th Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1961 Trevis Offy Q 7th Winner Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1962 Trevis Offy Q 5th F 25th Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1964 Watson Offy Q 5th Winner Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1969 Coyote / Ford t/c Pole F 8th Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1975 Coyote Ford t/c Pole F 3rd Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1980 VPJ6C Cosworth DFX Chassis #005 Q 12th F 14th Photo by Ed Arnaudin

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1982 #14 March 82C Cosworth Q 3rd F 19th Photo by Ed Arnaudin

Posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin.

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1988 #14 Lola T88/00 Cosworth Q 26th F 22nd

Not a bad record for a kid who quit school to become a mechanic and then set out to prove his Dad's midgets were not as bad as every one was saying they were. Happy AJ Foyt Day !

#192 Flat Black 84

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 14:12

Here's to AJ. May he remain with us for many, many more years.

:up:


#193 arttidesco

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 21:53

Posted Image

Photo Ed Arnaudin

B Squared kindly informed me last year Colin Riley is probably sitting in the #92 Lotus Ford 29, I did not realise when I posted that photo that the photographers son Steve had sent me a second photo with someone else in Team Lotus overalls driving the tow tractor. Does anyone know who the mechanic on the tractor might be ? And following on does any one know what became of Jim's Lotus 29 ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.




#194 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 22:13

And following on does any one know what became of Jim's Lotus 29 ?

There's a car painted to look like it in the Indianapolis museum:

Jim Clark's 1963 Lotus Type 29
Posted Image

but as RA Historian explained:

This, of course, is not Clark's Lotus 29. The IMS Museum for many years has had the Gurney car on display, repainted as the Clark car. This is chassis 29/1, which Gurney drove to seventh place. Clark's race car, 29/3, was later destroyed and does not exist. Frankly, I am surprised that a respected museum resorts to such chicanery.



#195 B Squared

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 00:59

Posted Image
Photo Ed Arnaudin
Does anyone know who the mechanic on the tractor might be ?
And following on does any one know what became of Jim's Lotus 29 ?


Once more, credit to the invaluable Team Lotus: The Indianapolis Years by Andrew Ferguson.

I think the gentleman on the tractor is Dave Lazenby.

From the Chassis Register of the above title on page 235. I don't know if it matters, but it's publishing date is Oct., 1996. (italics from copy)

Chassis 29/3

......we believe this was definitely the Pure Firebird Special Type 29 destroyed in Bobby Marshman's fatal accident while testing at Phoenix, Arizona, November 1964. According to most accounts destroyed by fire after heavy impact - some suggest rear end of tub survived but not usable - WRITTEN OFF.

#196 arttidesco

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 01:05

Thanks Tim and Brian :up:

I had an ominous feeling this might have been the Marsham car.

#197 B Squared

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:04

Thanks Tim and Brian :up:

I had an ominous feeling this might have been the Marsham car.


It is spelled Marshman - probably an inadvertant misspelling, but if it is going to be in your blog, you will want it correct I'm sure.

#198 arttidesco

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 13:03

Thanks for your help with today's blog Brain and Tim :wave:

#199 B Squared

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:18

It is spelled Marshman - probably an inadvertant misspelling, but if it is going to be in your blog, you will want it correct I'm sure.



Thanks for your help with today's blog Brain and Tim :wave:


Uh - It's Brian, but I've been called worse.

Disappointing that you didn't see fit to spell Mr. Marshman's name correctly in the article, unless you think it is Marsham??? Nor did Bobby spin off while going around traffic, he went low on the track apron and that damaged the oil pipe.

Below is a quote from the blog,

The following year Bobby Marsham put #29/3 now known as the Pure Firebird Special on the middle of the front row for 1964 Indy 500 right next to pole sitter Jim Clark in his newer Lotus Ford 34, see above. Bobby spun off while comfortably in the lead on lap 37 trying to avoid the slower Johnny White, damaging his oil and water pipes Bobby was eventually classified 25th.

I suggest that you check IMS archives, because the proper information is there if you choose to find it. Please remove my name from the article as there are too many needless errors for my comfort.

Edited by B Squared, 05 February 2012 - 10:25.


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#200 arttidesco

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 13:30

Sorry for the spelling mistakes Brian, thanks for taking the trouble to point them out.

Must be getting dyslexic in my old age on the case with the corrections :blush: