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Indianapolis 500 - the first 100 years


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#201 B Squared

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 14:39

Ralph - Thanks for making the corrections in your blog, much appreciated. :up:

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#202 ZOOOM

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:20

IIRC, at the time, during the race, the announcement about Marshmans' retirement said that he bottomed out and took the oil plug out of the oil pan. Was it really something else discovered later?
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#203 jj2728

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:28

I posted these elswhere but figured they'd be more at home here.

1948
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Copyright JAG

#204 arttidesco

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 17:48

I posted these elsewhere but figured they'd be more at home here.

1948
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Copyright JAG


Is Chet Miller really driving a #31 Mercedes ? What's the story ?


#205 B Squared

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 19:21

IIRC, at the time, during the race, the announcement about Marshmans' retirement said that he bottomed out and took the oil plug out of the oil pan. Was it really something else discovered later?

It looks like a combination of my statement and yours. From Lotus: The Indianapolis Years by Andrew Ferguson, page 83:

Lap 39 and Marshman was out; balked by a slower car, he swooped down below the marker line through one of the turns and, bottoming out as the other car had moved down with him, had gone onto the uneven surface, removing that vulnerably repositioned oil pipe as well as the oil drain plug from his engines sump.

You can see (what I suspect to be) the line in this shot. Bobby with car owner Lindsey Hopkins during 1964 Indianapolis front row qualifying pictures.

photo: Indianapolis Motor Speedway
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#206 Russ Snyder

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:12

Is Chet Miller really driving a #31 Mercedes ? What's the story ?


Arti - check out Mr Printz's words on the 1948 championship thread. a nice attempt that over-heated due to constantly running at high speed. if given time and more testing, may have been a challange to the blue crowns. as it was ...endurance, no, speed, yes.

Edited by Russ Snyder, 06 February 2012 - 04:35.


#207 Russ Snyder

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:14

I posted these elswhere but figured they'd be more at home here.

1948

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Copyright JAG


I believe that is Pole sitter Rex Mays in the Bowes Seal Fast. In my Euphoria over the new york giants, I cannot make out the number clearly

#208 stevewf1

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:56

I believe that is Pole sitter Rex Mays in the Bowes Seal Fast. In my Euphoria over the new york giants, I cannot make out the number clearly


If that is 1948... According to Jack C. Fox's book, Rex Mays drove #5. However, what looks like the number of the car in that photo is the Bowes Seal Fast Logo. The actual car number is towards the middle of the hood and more towards the top, which can't be seen in that photo.

Oh, and the Giants pulled that one off, didn't they? :)

Edited by stevewf1, 06 February 2012 - 04:57.


#209 Henri Greuter

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:31

Is Chet Miller really driving a #31 Mercedes ? What's the story ?




In short: Chet was originally assigned to Novi #54, as a teammate to Cliff Bergere. However, Chet was unable to work out the Novi to his liking and he asked to be resigned for m the ride. Which happened on good terms between the team and Miller.
Ending on much less good terms did the the relation between Cliff Bergere and the team. The debate is still out if Bud Winfield said "You're fired" before Bergere said "I quit" or reverse.
Ralph Hepburn was assigned to the Mercedes #31 but when offered the Novi (And we know what he did with that car in '46) he left the merc to drive for the Novi team, only to be killed one day later on pole day.
Miller took over the Mercedes vacated by Hepburn but would eventually return to the Novi team from 1950 on. His car became the one in which hepburn was killed in 1948 and tragically it would also claim Miller in 1953.


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 06 February 2012 - 09:32.


#210 arttidesco

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:42

In short: Chet was originally assigned to Novi #54, as a teammate to Cliff Bergere. However, Chet was unable to work out the Novi to his liking and he asked to be resigned for m the ride. Which happened on good terms between the team and Miller.
Ending on much less good terms did the the relation between Cliff Bergere and the team. The debate is still out if Bud Winfield said "You're fired" before Bergere said "I quit" or reverse.
Ralph Hepburn was assigned to the Mercedes #31 but when offered the Novi (And we know what he did with that car in '46) he left the merc to drive for the Novi team, only to be killed one day later on pole day.
Miller took over the Mercedes vacated by Hepburn but would eventually return to the Novi team from 1950 on. His car became the one in which hepburn was killed in 1948 and tragically it would also claim Miller in 1953.


Henri


Thanks Henri, how did what looks like a pre WW2 Mercedes ever end up at Indy ?

#211 David McKinney

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:47

It's been discussed on other threads

It was found in a barn in the mountains of Czechoslovakia in 1945, acquired by Rowland Motors in England, and sold to Tommy Lee in Los Angeles in 1946. It appeared at Indianapolis for several years after that




#212 arttidesco

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:51

It's been discussed on other threads

It was found in a barn in the mountains of Czechoslovakia in 1945, acquired by Rowland Motors in England, and sold to Tommy Lee in Los Angeles in 1946. It appeared at Indianapolis for several years after that


Thanks David, I'll check the other threads :up:

#213 Tim Murray

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:18

These two are probably the most informative:

THE LAST SHOW of the Silverarrows

Tommy Lee Mercedes W154 in England

#214 arttidesco

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 23:24

Thanks for posting the links Tim, fascinating how these cars got shipped about, does anyone know if the Czechs ever got their Alta ?

#215 Russ Snyder

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 15:16

If that is 1948... According to Jack C. Fox's book, Rex Mays drove #5. However, what looks like the number of the car in that photo is the Bowes Seal Fast Logo. The actual car number is towards the middle of the hood and more towards the top, which can't be seen in that photo.

Oh, and the Giants pulled that one off, didn't they? :)


Agreed. The Giants played wonderful and allowed this 48 year old fan to look into his diary from the first week of feb 1972 and see this entry; 'Giants trade Fran Tarkenton back to Vikings for Norm snead, Vince clements & Bob grim + draft choices. Giants will never ever win a Super Bowl now with Fran gone'...ah, youth re-visited.

The thing I wish is the picture showed is a little further up the straight. there would have been the 'big tree' in front of grandstand C. that tree was removed after the 1946 race...in the Jack Fox book, pics from the start of the 1939 and 1941 races clearly show the big tree. Pics back to 1911 have it as well...

Now I am a shrubbery expert...oy vey azamir! and now for something completly different....

Edited by Russ Snyder, 08 February 2012 - 15:16.


#216 BobGreen

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 16:10

A friend of mine has the only known to exist and authenticated poster from the very first Indy race. It is kept in a bank vault and is quite valuable as you might imagine. He is one of if not the largest collectors of racing posters in the world and this is his prize piece. He located it several years ago in the attic of an old store I think and it is in remarkably good condition. It and many of his other posters have been exhibited in the Indy Museum.

An interesting story concerns one of those exhibits. Among the posters that Jacques had on display at the Indy Museum was one of Roger Penske, in a Cooper Monaco I think, that was just one of many on display. Tony George ordered him to remove the Penske Poster and Jacques refused. Tony then removed ALL of the posters and sent Jacques on his way back to Texas.

Edited by BobGreen, 08 February 2012 - 19:53.


#217 RA Historian

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 16:15

Penski? :confused:

#218 jj2728

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 00:29

I dusted off an old book the other day
INDIANAPOLIS 500 the World's Most Exciting Race
And I'm building a 1/43rd version of Hill's winning Lola. So my question is this. Can anyone shed some light as to why Stewart was rewarded with Rookie of the Year and not Hill? I know that SJS drove a stellar race and that the finish was, to put it mildly, a bit controversial, but Graham was after all a rookie winner. Did the powers-to-be feel that he didn't merit both the win and Rookie of the year?

#219 xj13v12

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:42

I dusted off an old book the other day
INDIANAPOLIS 500 the World's Most Exciting Race
And I'm building a 1/43rd version of Hill's winning Lola. So my question is this. Can anyone shed some light as to why Stewart was rewarded with Rookie of the Year and not Hill? I know that SJS drove a stellar race and that the finish was, to put it mildly, a bit controversial, but Graham was after all a rookie winner. Did the powers-to-be feel that he didn't merit both the win and Rookie of the year?


Back then the Rookie prize was for overall performance including qualifying. Hill was not prominant in that or the race until everyone else fell over and the result was indeed controversial. Stewart looked like a winner and aslo pushed his car into the pits which for some bizarre reason was a big hit with the crowd and officials.
In 1969 Donohue was rookie coming home 7th (I think) whereas Revson ran from last to finish 5th. Donohue had been a front runner throughout qualifying.

Edited by xj13v12, 11 May 2012 - 04:43.


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#220 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 06:19

I dusted off an old book the other day
INDIANAPOLIS 500 the World's Most Exciting Race
And I'm building a 1/43rd version of Hill's winning Lola. So my question is this. Can anyone shed some light as to why Stewart was rewarded with Rookie of the Year and not Hill? I know that SJS drove a stellar race and that the finish was, to put it mildly, a bit controversial, but Graham was after all a rookie winner. Did the powers-to-be feel that he didn't merit both the win and Rookie of the year?




Think about the Co-Rookies of the year in 1978: Rick Mears and Larry Rice. Pretty much the same reasons. Rick impressing in practice and qualifying (first row) though Rice didn't win of course.
But who remembers Rice nowadays...


henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 11 May 2012 - 06:20.


#221 xj13v12

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:23

Think about the Co-Rookies of the year in 1978: Rick Mears and Larry Rice. Pretty much the same reasons. Rick impressing in practice and qualifying (first row) though Rice didn't win of course.
But who remembers Rice nowadays...


henri

Are you going this year Henri? If so please say hi. I am in #60 in the historic demonstration laps.

#222 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:51

Are you going this year Henri? If so please say hi. I am in #60 in the historic demonstration laps.



I'm not coming this year, sorry. But have fun nonetheless!

Henri

#223 B Squared

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:28

In 1969 Donohue was rookie coming home 7th (I think) whereas Revson ran from last to finish 5th. Donohue had been a front runner throughout qualifying.


Plus the fact Donohue ran as high as second in the race, and was in third place on lap 176 of 200 when magneto trouble forced the 10-minute 32-second pitstop that dropped him to seventh.

#224 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 17:01

Larry Rice is still remembered by many as a USAC Dirt Track and Midget Champion, if not as an Indy driver. But why was the 1966 finish controversial? Because of the "Big Andy Granatelli Soap Opera"?? :rolleyes:

#225 RA Historian

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 22:25

. But why was the 1966 finish controversial?

Perhaps because Team Lotus apparently miscounted the laps and thought Clark had won, despite two spins. As I recall, Jimmy rolled his 38 to victory lane, only to find it occupied by Hill's Lola.
Tom

#226 B Squared

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:56

But why was the 1966 finish controversial? Because of the "Big Andy Granatelli Soap Opera"?? :rolleyes:


Dad remembers alot of people in the grandstands near him and his friends that thought Clark had won, including himself. This was his tenth race at the Speedway, so he had a bit of knowledge on following a race. What section were you in that day in which there was a chorus immediately claiming the finish was the product of the "Big Andy Granatelli Soap Opera"?

#227 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 16:54

I was in section "womb of my mother", having just gotten there from section "gleam in my father's eye". Geez, relax people. Maybe that finish was controversial in the stands immediately after the race, that wasn't really unusual. The only reason people still talk about the finish having been controversial is that walking soap opera, "They call me Mr. STP". :)

#228 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 17:58

I was in section "womb of my mother", having just gotten there from section "gleam in my father's eye". Geez, relax people. Maybe that finish was controversial in the stands immediately after the race, that wasn't really unusual. The only reason people still talk about the finish having been controversial is that walking soap opera, "They call me Mr. STP". :)



I thought it was "Mr. 500"?

#229 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 18:09

I don't think anyone ever called him Mr. 500 - did you?

#230 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:02

I don't think anyone ever called him Mr. 500 - did you?


Hi Michael,

I'm sure I can recall an autobiography called "They Call Me Mr. 500", regularly advertised in Autoweek back in the Seventies. Maybe some of our US friends can confirm or deny this.

Thanks

Nigel

#231 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:08

... which I was refering to, by my (admittedly sarcastic) remark - it's all part of The Soap Opera...

#232 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:11

... which I was refering to, by my (admittedly sarcastic) remark - it's all part of The Soap Opera...



Oh, okay. I guess I missed the point. Sometimes it's difficult to detect sarcasm in the written word.

#233 Flat Black 84

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 14:02

Oh, okay. I guess I missed the point. Sometimes it's difficult to detect sarcasm in the written word.


With Ferner, sarcasm is the default mode.

:drunk:

#234 RA Historian

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:40

I don't think anyone ever called him Mr. 500 - did you?


I'm sure I can recall an autobiography called "They Call Me Mr. 500", regularly advertised in Autoweek back in the Seventies. Maybe some of our US friends can confirm or deny this.

Yes, Granatelli grandiosely wrote (or had ghosted) an autobiography called that. As Michael states, I believe only he called himself that; nobody else did. Further, I don't think he ever met a microphone or TV camera he did not like.

Andy Granatelli was a legend in his own mind.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 14 May 2012 - 19:41.


#235 jj2728

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 20:54

I met Vince a few times in the 80s and he seemed a decent enough sort.

#236 Michael Ferner

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:10

I met Vince a few times in the 80s and he seemed a decent enough sort.


It's not a family trait. As far as I can tell, it only inflicted Andy amongst the Granatellis, but he surely tarnished that name with all that he got.

#237 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 13:24

It's not a family trait. As far as I can tell, it only inflicted Andy amongst the Granatellis, but he surely tarnished that name with all that he got.


I worked with someone who had been at Vince's team, and he swore all the phones were bugged. Allegedly.

#238 Emery0323

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 19:47

Dad remembers alot of people in the grandstands near him and his friends that thought Clark had won, including himself. This was his tenth race at the Speedway, so he had a bit of knowledge on following a race. What section were you in that day in which there was a chorus immediately claiming the finish was the product of the "Big Andy Granatelli Soap Opera"?


I recall reading Andy Granatelli's aforementioned "They Call Me Mr. 500" as a kid in the 1970's. It was a very entertaining book for me, but I showed it to my father, who said "He must have had a ghost writer write this for him".

Granatelli speculates that there was a scoring error that probably occurred when Al Unser's identical-looking STP Lotus team car hit the wall on lap 161, and that Clark was not credited for that lap due confusion by the official scorers. Clark's spins weren't mentioned, as I recall.

Edited by Emery0323, 15 May 2012 - 19:52.


#239 arttidesco

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:33

1962 Indy 500 photo's by Ed Arnaudin courtesy of Steve Arnaudin,

Posted Image

I wonder if anyone can confirm the black car is the Phillips Offy of Bud Tigelstad ? Also using the reference photo below I have been unable to identify the white roadster (Watson ?) behind it.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Finally the photo above was taken in 1982 can anyone confirm that is Roger Ward at the wheel of the #3 Watson Offy ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.


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#240 biercemountain

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:31

I've been DVRing the Indy 500 rebroadcasts on ESPN Classics and am most of the way through the '69 race. I must say, ABC did a fine job with their "Wide World of Sports" presentations. Although quite condensed they give a good glimpse of the entire month of May and the big race. I dare say today's broadcasts could take a few notes from them.

#241 Collombin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 17:03

I wonder if anyone can confirm the black car is the Phillips Offy of Bud Tigelstad ? Also using the reference photo below I have been unable to identify the white roadster (Watson ?) behind it...............Finally the photo above was taken in 1982 can anyone confirm that is Roger Ward at the wheel of the #3 Watson Offy ?


Hi Ralph,

I believe the black car is actually Jack Turner's Kurtis, with probably Eddie Sachs' car behind it.

And yes, it is Rodger Ward in the 1982 shot - or at least, he was there, he drove the car that day, and it looks like him!


#242 B Squared

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:14

I believe the black car is actually Jack Turner's Kurtis, with probably Eddie Sachs' car behind it.

And yes, it is Rodger Ward in the 1982 shot - or at least, he was there, he drove the car that day, and it looks like him!


I agree with the Turner identification, and also that it is Rodger Ward at the wheel of his Leader Card Watson. I see a thin red ring around the nose grille on the white car that leads me to think that is is either Shorty Templeman's Watson or Bobby Grim's Trevis.

#243 Collombin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 19:22

I agree with the Turner identification, and also that it is Rodger Ward at the wheel of his Leader Card Watson. I see a thin red ring around the nose grille on the white car that leads me to think that is is either Shorty Templeman's Watson or Bobby Grim's Trevis.


The Bardahl logo makes the Turner ID relatively straightforward, and having looked again at the white car I believe you can just make out a red oil tank (I originally assumed this to be part of the jacket of the man standing infront!) - which means it is Bobby Grim's car. The markings behind the roll hoop seem to tally with that too, so on reflection I therefore change my guess accordingly!


#244 arttidesco

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 21:22

Posted Image

Thanks EB and Brian talk of a Bardhal logo , red oil tanks and thin red lines has led me to blow the image up some more, now I too can see what you are talking about :blush:

Jack Turner's Kurtis and Bobby Grim's Trevis looks a much better fit thanks :up:


Indy '62 blog goes out on Sunday. :wave:

#245 jj2728

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 21:50

Came across this today:
http://libx.bsu.edu/...OT=/SatterleePh

#246 B Squared

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 15:28

IMS asks for state funding for improvements, from the Indystar. I never thought I would see the day. While the NBA Pacers and NFL Colts have gone this route, I've always been pleased that "my sport" and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway did not ask for such from the taxpayers.

http://www.indystar....0M-improvements

#247 arttidesco

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 15:39

I've always been pleased that "my sport" and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway did not ask for such from the taxpayers.


“It’s really about keeping this iconic facility competitive in the sports AND entertainment world,”

Might be a clue in there somewhere  ;)


#248 arttidesco

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 23:03

Posted Image

Photo by Geoffrey Horton Palo Alto 2011.

It's time for some more Indy 500 blogs and regrettably some more dumb questions going back in this instance to 1914, Doug has already kindly answered some ownership questions about the #14 that Arthur Duray drove to second place on another thread but here are a couple more.

Was Durays car a 3 litre yes but also known as L5 ?

And finally was Georges Boillot's pole winning average speed of 99.860 mph also set in a 3 litre (L5 ?) Peugeot ?

Relevant answers may be credit and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Edited by arttidesco, 16 April 2013 - 23:04.


#249 Marc Sproule

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:37

Four pics of the pass before the spin, Sullivan and Mario. 1985

http://www.flickr.co...157632616442219

http://www.flickr.co...57632616442219/

http://www.flickr.co...57632616442219/

http://www.flickr.co...57632616442219/

#250 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:14

Was Durays car a 3 litre yes but also known as L5 ?

And finally was Georges Boillot's pole winning average speed of 99.860 mph also set in a 3 litre (L5 ?) Peugeot ?

The 'L' designation refers to engine size, hence the L76 was 7.6 litres, the L45 was 4.5 litres, etc The 3-litre engine was the L3 (not L30 as would have been more logical).

At Indianapolis in 1914 Boillot and Goux drove cars with L56 engines (as used to win the 1913 French GP). Only Duray drove the L3.