29 replies to this topic

[rochdaleproject]

Hi All,

First forum entry and I'm already asking for help!!!

I have recently bought a Rochdale C Type bodied, Buckler Chassied, Ford engined restoration project that I am desperately trying to trace the history of? The picture below shows my car in its prime on the track at Silverstone, I'm pretty sure the year is narrowed down to 1953-56 and I have the names of 2 possible drivers that are connected with this car in some way, T Locke and R Booth. I'm also pretty sure it is from the 8 Clubs Silverstone race meetings? Does anyone recognise the names/car and can shed any light on the race it is in? If you want to see its current condition then head on over to my restoration website at: http://www.rochdalep...8761909629.html




Very many thanks for your help

James

Edited by rochdaleproject, 07 October 2010 - 22:18.

[Allan Lupton]

The Eight Clubs race meetings had much the same format over their entire 50-odd years' existence. The majority of the races were allcomers' scratch races and allcomers' handicap races, and both sorts were made up from the available competitors by the handicapper who tried to group cars of like performance together, regardless of how that performance came about. There were also allcomers' High Speed Trials for those who just wanted track time. Since one of the founding 8 clubs was 750 Motor Club there was also a specific race for the 750 Formula and a little later (when they had invented it) the Formula 1172 (which became Formula 1300 via various upgrades).
Hence even if we can find when a Buckler with competiton number 98 raced, it would be unlikely that the specific race could be identified. I would guess that it was in the 1172 race, but you could enter that and the allcomers' races/HSTs and in later years there was even a team race at the end of the day. The other cars in the photo are too much obscured to be certainly identified, which might be a clue.
It looks like Copse corner to me, but that's no help.
It's got a Hertfordshire registration so if you have any other owner's name perhaps I can help as that's where I am and have been for many years. Neither Locke nor Booth means anything to me at present.

[CoulthardD]

I dare say you've seen THIS. Hard to understand the columns, but R.A. Booth is listed as an owner (I think...) and a build date of May 1955???

Looking at your web site, I think "derelict" is a pretty fair description!

DC

Edited by CoulthardD, 08 October 2010 - 09:38.

[Bauble]

I certainly attended a number of 8 Club meetings in the fifities, but sadly the programmes went when I got married, however, the low wall on the inside of the corner can give a clue as to the year. Prior to the wall it was straw bales and oil drums, but just when it was built I am not sure, but some 'clever dick' will know.

Lookng through a few old pictures I suspect the wall was later than 1956.

Edited by Bauble, 08 October 2010 - 12:52.

[Eric Dunsdon]

I certainly attended a number of 8 Club meetings in the fifities, but sadly the programmes went when I got married, however, the low wall on the inside of the corner can give a clue as to the year. Prior to the wall it was straw bales and oil drums, but just when it was built I am not sure, but some 'clever dick' will know.

Lookng through a few old pictures I suspect the wall was later than 1956.

Without wishing to appear a 'Clever Dick', the Silverstone walls appeared in 1955, Fangio's Mercedes having disposed of most of the oil drums the previous year.

[Geoff E]

The registration VAR 732 would suggest a 1955 registration.

[Bloggsworth]

The registration VAR 732 would suggest a 1955 registration.

Was *AR a Hertfordshire registration, along with UR?

[Tim Murray]

Yes - see post 2.

In addition to the Buckler page which DC linked to, there's another page on that site which has details on the car, and records that James is the current owner. Both pages mention the name Courtney-Johns in connection with the car's early history - does this ring any bells?

[Allan Lupton]

Was *AR a Hertfordshire registration, along with UR?

Hertfordshire had AR JH NK RO and UR

In addition to the Buckler page which DC linked to, there's another page on that site which has details on the car, and records that James is the current owner. Both pages mention the name Courtney-Johns in connection with the car's early history - does this ring any bells?

Courtney-Johns rings a deciBel but no more - I'll sleep on it

FWIW Derek Buckler was a member of the Hants & Berks MC, another of the original 8 Clubs. I'm pretty sure he raced his products there sometimes.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 08 October 2010 - 16:33.

[rochdaleproject]

Hi all,

Many thanks for the replies, I am aware of Courtney Johns, the last owner for 40 years! I have become a member of the Buckler register to try and ascertain the History but it is very limited, all I really know is the names and the picture!

The Buckler Archives suggest a Mr R Booth owned this car in in 1955 and I can confirm this was the case from an advert I have discovered in Motorsport from 1957 which I have since written to this address and am waiting a reply, after 55 years though I'm not that confident! Advert reads:

"BUCKLER. Ford 8. May 1956. Sports racer. Fibreglass body. Aero screens. Tonneau. IFS 4.7 axle. Close ratio gears. 45 mpg £290 ono R.Booth. Ches- hunt. Herts."

It was then interesting to read a small snippet of its history from the Buckler book which read:

"the cars early history is missing but it appears to have been active in 1955 as a modest road car. In 1956 Mr Locke bought the road car and decided some additional power was required, he removed the 8hp engine and fitted an 1172 with the willment OHIV conversion"

I am currently trying to find out where this information was gathered about Mr Locke, I have contacted the Owner of the car in 1959 who stated he bought it from Sutton Coldfield from an advert in Autosport but Mr Locke could be the key to letting me know any Racing history this car may have?

I have previously been told the registration originates from Chelmsford, but thanks to your help and the fact Mr R Booth lived in Herts this is probably incorrect!

Great to be able to date the picture from the Brick wall around the track, a gem of pub quiz information that, many thanks! Whilst looking around the net, Interestingly I have found a record of a R Booth competing in a Lotus Climax at Silerstone in 1960, the plot thickens!!!

Many thanks all, I think the picture below is a picture of R Booth, picture obtained from the Rochdale Owners Club Registrar (not sure where it originated) , A very very very big longshot but anyone recognise him?



James

Edited by rochdaleproject, 08 October 2010 - 18:27.

[Mistron]

Have you tried the 750MC? they have the records for the 1172 championships giving position for each race in the season.

Mine are packed away at the moment I'm afraid.

I think the chap to speak to is Neil Carr-Jones?

[Leigh Trevail]

For a small fee the Hertfordshire Records Office will let you know the date of this cars registration and who registered it. Through this office I found out about a special built by a Mr R. Butler and registered LUR 899, it was feasible that this was also a Buckler. If in your investigations this gentleman or his car is mentioned I would be interested to learn more.

[RWB]

For a small fee the Hertfordshire Records Office will let you know the date of this cars registration and who registered it. Through this office I found out about a special built by a Mr R. Butler and registered LUR 899, it was feasible that this was also a Buckler. If in your investigations this gentleman or his car is mentioned I would be interested to learn more.

8 Clubs Silverstone 7-6-58. A P Locke ran as number 98 in a Buckler V 1172cc. He was entered as a member of the Hants & Berks MC.

[Allan Lupton]

8 Clubs Silverstone 7-6-58. A P Locke ran as number 98 in a Buckler V 1172cc. He was entered as a member of the Hants & Berks MC.

I'm in contact with H&B although no longer a member - shall I see if there is anyone still around who knew or knows A.P. Locke?

[rochdaleproject]

8 Clubs Silverstone 7-6-58. A P Locke ran as number 98 in a Buckler V 1172cc. He was entered as a member of the Hants & Berks MC.

RWB I owe you a drink, very many thanks for the information, putting a place and time to the photo is just brilliant, I don't suppose he came first!!!!

Allan, I would also be in your debt if you could manage to obtain a contact of anyone that knows or knew A P Locke, what a great lead though.

What a great Forum, thanks all

Regards

James

[bradbury west]

RWB I owe you a drink, very many thanks for the information, putting a place and time to the photo .....Allan, I would also be in your debt if you could manage to obtain a contact of anyone that knows or knew A P Locke, what a great lead though.What a great Forum, thanks all
James

I don't suppose you have a first name for him, as that would make it easier?.
Roger Lund

[RWB]

First mention was "T Locke" and the programme says "A Locke". Perhaps Tony/Anthony?

[Allan Lupton]

I've sent a message to my H&B contact.
How do you (Robert (RWB)) know about no. 98? Have you a programme, in which case you can tell us if he raced in more races than one.
The Motor Sport report doesn't mention him and only quotes results in the text. As a little digression I can say that a few well-known names crop up in the report, such as Arthur Mallock in his Austin-Ford, Nancy Mitchell in an MGA coupé and Don Bennett in a Fairthorpe Electron. A not so well-known name was Mrs Naylor whose Lagonda Rapier retired but whose better-known name was Tilly Shilling, she who fixed the carburettor of the RR Merlin for negative g.!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 09 October 2010 - 22:57.

[Allan Lupton]

No Locke in the H&B records it seems, but Malcolm Buckler, son of Derek, is being made aware of this thread which may well help.

[RWB]

I've sent a message to my H&B contact.
How do you (Robert (RWB)) know about no. 98? Have you a programme, in which case you can tell us if he raced in more races than one.
The Motor Sport report doesn't mention him and only quotes results in the text. As a little digression I can say that a few well-known names crop up in the report, such as Arthur Mallock in his Austin-Ford, Nancy Mitchell in an MGA coupé and Don Bennett in a Fairthorpe Electron. A not so well-known name was Mrs Naylor whose Lagonda Rapier retired but whose better-known name was Tilly Shilling, she who fixed the carburettor of the RR Merlin for negative g.!

Yes, I have the programme but sadly it's mint and unmarked. I prefer them with as much writing as possible! Mr Locke seems to be entered for only one handicap race.

Allan - you could start a Tilly Shilling thread if you're not careful. She ran the modified Lagonda for several years with her husband. They had an FJ Elva which became a sports car and they raced a Sprite - and a connection with Dan Gurney and the Eagle.

[Tim Murray]

Allan - you could start a Tilly Shilling thread if you're not careful.

An excellent idea. I was aware that she had raced motorcycles before World War 2, but had no idea she had also raced cars. The Gurney/Eagle connection sounds interesting - please do tell more.

[rochdaleproject]

Yes, I have the programme but sadly it's mint and unmarked. I prefer them with as much writing as possible! Mr Locke seems to be entered for only one handicap race.

Rob, is there any chance of getting a scan of the results page out of the programme for my records? I'd then owe you 2 beers!

cheers

[Allan Lupton]

Rob, is there any chance of getting a scan of the results page out of the programme for my records? I'd then owe you 2 beers!

cheers

The programme won't have a results page (of course) but it is just possible that one of the other competitors might have results.

Via Robin Birchall (like me a former Eight Clubs Handicapper) the following from Malcolm Buckler:

Robin

I have known about the car for many years but the owner would not have a dialogue or let anyone venture near and an apple tree started growing through the chassis and grew to some considerable size. I can only think that the falling and slow rotting of the acidic apples every autumn accelerated the corrosion of the chassis, as it is quite the worst basket case I have seen, far worse than a Mark 5 Buckler that was dragged out of a pond. It is a brave man to undertake such a restoration. What a pity there is no confirmed H&B link.

Photos of the car as found are on the owner's website. He is a "Rochdale" man, having already restored one and a keen member of that club. Now we are trying to change his mind-set slightly. We want him to think of this car as a Buckler Mk 5 with Rochdale type C bodyshell and not a Rochdale type C with a Buckler chassis !!

[RWB]

Rob, is there any chance of getting a scan of the results page out of the programme for my records? I'd then owe you 2 beers!

cheers

No results I'm afraid but do email me if you would like a copy of the entry list for that race.

[RWB]

An excellent idea. I was aware that she had raced motorcycles before World War 2, but had no idea she had also raced cars. The Gurney/Eagle connection sounds interesting - please do tell more.

You may not have recognised her married name. She race as Beatrice Naylor in a modified Lagonda Rapier shared with husband George, later the Elva and Sprite. I knew nothing of the Eagle connection until I saw Matthew Freudenberg's book "Negative Gravity". He has pictures of Gurney and Weslake at RAE Farnborough with the F1 Eagle. They were seeking help from Mrs N and others with cooling problems. She was a real character.

[rochdaleproject]

The programme won't have a results page (of course) but it is just possible that one of the other competitors might have results.

Via Robin Birchall (like me a former Eight Clubs Handicapper) the following from Malcolm Buckler:

He is a "Rochdale" man, having already restored one and a keen member of that club. Now we are trying to change his mind-set slightly. We want him to think of this car as a Buckler Mk 5 with Rochdale type C bodyshell and not a Rochdale type C with a Buckler chassis !!

As the Secretary of the Rochdale Owners Club I'm afraid it's always going to be a Rochdale C Type on a Buckler Chassis , I also have a Mark VI Rochdale bodyshell on a Paramount chassis and a Rochdale Olympic, although my journey to the dark side of Bucklers has only just begun so we will wait and see!!!!

I called in on the address today that I found in Motorsport for Mr Booth (who I think was the original builder), as expected he moved out of there in the late 70's and was apparently quite old then. The current occupier is trying to find out where he went to though as she thought it was only down the road, watch this space!!

This Buckler Mark V chassis has enough pieces left to be able to graft into a newly prepared one although it is in a really bad way, the Buckler Register also has the CAD drawings to enable a new chassis to be made, if I graft a few pieces in then at least I can kind of call it a restoration! Not concerned about the bodyshell as it is in a restorable state with a bit of graft!

Does anyone know of a Mark V Buckler Chassis going spare, the phrase "Hens Teeth" springs to mind!!!! Worth a shot though, wow, look a flying pig

Many thanks again to all for your continued help in trying to trace the history of this car, it is all very much appreciated

[David McKinney]

Does anyone know of a Mark V Buckler Chassis going spare, the phrase "Hens Teeth" springs to mind!!!! Worth a shot though, wow, look a flying pig

There a few in New Zealand, though mostly modern builds, I suspect. I don't know if any are for sale - Malcolm Buckler might know
If so, he'd probably prefer it went into a Rochdale-bodied Buckler

Edited by David McKinney, 10 October 2010 - 18:45.

[Tim Murray]

You may not have recognised her married name. She race as Beatrice Naylor in a modified Lagonda Rapier shared with husband George, later the Elva and Sprite. I knew nothing of the Eagle connection until I saw Matthew Freudenberg's book "Negative Gravity". He has pictures of Gurney and Weslake at RAE Farnborough with the F1 Eagle. They were seeking help from Mrs N and others with cooling problems. She was a real character.

Thank you. She does seem to have had quite a life. I shall have to track down a copy of that book.

[bradbury west]

Thank you. She does seem to have had quite a life. I shall have to track down a copy of that book.

I recall her name on the Elva mk 6 site.......
http://www.elva.com/...jottings02.html
Roger Lund

[Tim Murray]

Better and better. Thanks, Roger.