25 replies to this topic

[Tmeranda]

How can you tell these cars apart mechanically and appearances?

[arttidesco]

I certainly can't tell them apart but here is what I know about them and I'll stand to be corrected on all the details :-

The story starts with the P3 chassis 0844 & 0848 which featured fuel injected V12's with 2 valve cylinder heads (?) and ZF transmissions.

These two P3 cars were converted into 412P spec 0844 for NART and 0848 for Scuderia Filipinetti along with 0850 for Francochamps (correction which had yellow bodywork) and 0854 for Maranello Concessionaires which were built up from P3 chassis into 412P spec (ie 0850 and 0854 had never been raced in P3 spec).

The 412P spec included P3 chassis, P3 4 litre block and 2 valve cylinder heads (?) but with carbs instead of fuel injection and 603R P4 gearboxes, instead of the ZF's used in the P3's. P4 suspension but with P3 2412 mm wheelbase.

P 3/4 was a one off chassis 0846 which appears to be a P3 chassis P4 suspension and P4 2410 wheelbase (?) and P4 4 litre block WITH 3 valve cylinder heads AND fuel injection, 603R P4 gearbox, it also ran with a P3 nose, which I still can't distinguish from a P4 or 412 P nose. The only external distinguishing feature of P 3/4 0846 to my eyes is that at Daytona it raced without a roof. This car led a Ferrari 1,2, 3 finish at the Daytona 24 hours in 1967, a small irritation to Team Fix Or Repair Daily no doubt.

Three P4 chassis were built 0856, 0858 and 0860 with 2140 wheelbase 4 litre blocks, 3 valve cylinder heads, fuel injection and 603R P4 gearbox.

This picture of the Ferrari 1,2,3 finish at Daytona features the roofless #23 P 3/4, #24 P4 and the #26 NART 412P

Hope that helps

Edited by arttidesco, 20 October 2010 - 23:14.

[sterling49]

I certainly can't tell them apart but here is what I know about them and I'll stand to be corrected on all the details :-

The story starts with the P3 chassis <a href="http://&quot;http://www.autogaleria.pl/fotografie/ferrari/ferrari_330_p3-4_1966_01.jpg&quot;" target="_blank">0844 & 0848</a> which featured fuel injected V12's with 2 valve cylinder heads (?) and ZF transmissions.
P 3/4 was a one off chassis 0846 which appears to be a P3 chassis P4 suspension and P4 2410 wheelbase (?) and P4 4 litre block WITH 3 valve cylinder heads AND fuel injection, 603R P4 gearbox, it also ran with a P3 nose, which I still can't distinguish from a P4 or 412 P nose. The only external distinguishing feature of P 3/4 0846 to my eyes is that at Daytona it raced without a roof. This car led a Ferrari 1,2, 3 finish at the Daytona 24 hours in 1967, a small irritation to Team Fix Or Repair Daily no doubt.

Team Fix Or Repair Daily did pretty well if I recall..............four Le Mans on the trot, not bad for new kids on the block.................they took the fight to Ferrari and won, bravo. Any need for the cheap shots? Oh.........and I love P4 too.............

Edited by sterling49, 21 October 2010 - 12:56.

[proviz]

Partial quote: "...it also ran with a P3 nose, which I still can't distinguish from a P4 or 412 P nose. The only external distinguishing feature of P 3/4 0846 to my eyes is that at Daytona it raced without a roof."

1966 P3 nose is very easy to distinguish from 1967 P4 or 412P noses. The latter had oval headlight covers, the former a more complex shape. Easy to spot from almost any angle.

Edited by proviz, 21 October 2010 - 13:07.

[hipperson]

Whats this!..Chelsea Legends last month



And this...........

[Macca]

That is 412P c/n 0844, and the photo from the '67 BOAC 1000 shows 2 of the works P4s.

On the question of noses...........the P3s in 1966 did indeed have oval headlight glasses, but all the 412Ps in '67 had the same nose shape as the P4s; the only way to distinguish them from the front is that the 412P has a single air slot centrally in the middle of the top lip whereas the P4 has two (the unique P3/4 0846 has one, which distinguishes it from the P4s), while from above the 412Ps can be seen to have a bulge in the rear offside of the radiator outlet on top of the nose because they have a different pedal box to the P4s.

Confused? Good.............


Paul M

[hipperson]

And this ?

[Macca]

David Piper in his 365P2/3 which he still owns, c/n 0836.

Was originally a works P2 with a DOHC engine, then fitted with a 4.4-litre SOHC before it was sold to DP, as were all the P2s which were sold to the 'concessionaire' teams. Called a 'P2/3' because it got a P3 windscreen for 1966 instead of the squarer one it had originally.

Paul M

[sterling49]

That is a fabulous photo of Brands at Bottom Bend Michael, look how low to the ground the cars are........I forget just how 43 years dilutes my memories............so pleased that I saw these cars race.

[hipperson]

And this Paul

[RA Historian]

Looks like a 1969 312-P.
Tom

[jj2728]

Whats this!..Chelsea Legends last month

what's with those mirrors? those aren't original that's for sure......

[arttidesco]

Team Fix Or Repair Daily did pretty well if I recall..............four Le Mans on the trot, not bad for new kids on the block.................they took the fight to Ferrari and won, bravo. Any need for the cheap shots? Oh.........and I love P4 too.............

I did say 'minor' irritation

[FLB]

To ressurrect an old thread: The Maranello Concessionaires 412P has just sold for 30,255,000.00USD at the Bonhams Quail Auction (Monterey):

 

Bonhams : 1967 Ferrari 412P BerlinettaChassis no. 0854Engine no. 0854

Edited by FLB, 19 August 2023 - 00:35.

[Doug Nye]

Could hardly happen to a nicer car.    

 

DCN

[Tom Glowacki]

Team Fix Or Repair Daily did pretty well if I recall..............four Le Mans on the trot, not bad for new kids on the block.................they took the fight to Ferrari and won, bravo. Any need for the cheap shots? Oh.........and I love P4 too.............

That's OK.  My father used to say that "A Mercury is a Ford with lock washers."

[Doug Nye]

Hmmm - "...and won eventually".

 

Thereafter, Ford Sport  and their home team certainly achieved an almighty image makeover for the Dagenham Dustbins...  Oh, and Cosbodge & Duckfudge Ltd also did pretty well for the brand...

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Tom Glowacki
That's OK.  My father used to say that "A Mercury is a Ford with lock washers."

That's an interesting one, it really is...

It tempts me to wonder just where on a Mercury someone found a lock-washer which wasn't there on the corresponding bolt in a Ford.

I guarantee, however, that they didn't replace the UNC with UNF.

[Emery0323]

To ressurrect an old thread: The Maranello Concessionaires 412P has just sold for 30,255,000.00USD at the Bonhams Quail Auction (Monterey):

 

Bonhams : 1967 Ferrari 412P BerlinettaChassis no. 0854Engine no. 0854

Here's video of the Bonham's Quail Auction - Watch it now before they take it down.

The 412P in question comes on the block at around 4:40 (hours:minutes) into video, bidding stalls quickly after an opening bids around $27M.

The road registration plates for NY State are a tell-tale sign that the consignor is Jim Glickenhaus, of Scuderia Glickenhaus fame, and the owner of many classic sports prototype racers.

 

https://www.youtube....?v=x8Y9AYSnLGc 

[GreenMachine]

Video ended - looks like that was the live stream, nothing good there now anyway.

 

Thanks for the tip on the rego plate, I wondered how you could legally run something like that on the road.  What a blast!

[Emery0323]

Video ended - looks like that was the live stream, nothing good there now anyway.

 

Thanks for the tip on the rego plate, I wondered how you could legally run something like that on the road.  What a blast!

If you put your cursor on the timeline bar at the bottom of the video frame and move your cursor left and right, you can find specific parts of the video. Then left-click where you want to start and it should start playing automatically. You can hit the "play" (rightward triangle, far left bottom) icon if it doesn't start.  I just checked, it worked for me.

 

Jim Glickenhaus also has the Ford MkIV Chassis J6 road registered in NY state - it finished 4th at LeMans in 1967 with Donohue and McLaren driving (the yellow MarkIV with Race number 2).

He also has what is claimed to be the Ferrari P3/P4 chassis 0846 fully restored and road registered with NY state plates, although its authenticity has been disputed.

 

EDIT: After checking Google street view, it's interesting to see that some of the auction photos of 412P #0854 were taking in front of the Scuderia Glickenhaus shop in Sleepy Hollow, NY.

Edited by Emery0323, 20 August 2023 - 10:02.

[GreenMachine]

Thanks for that, yes it worked as you described.  Pretty slow old auction, I expected a bit more action but given what appeared to be an opening bid of $27m, maybe scared some people off.

 

Yes he has appeared on this very parish in the past, though I have not noticed him in recent years.

[GazChed]

I see that a Porsche 906, a contemporary of the 412P with successful Japanese racing history went for US$2,000,000. Wish I had known...

[Myhinpaa]

If you put your cursor on the timeline bar at the bottom of the video frame and move your cursor left and right, you can find specific parts of the video. Then left-click where you want to start and it should start playing automatically. You can hit the "play" (rightward triangle, far left bottom) icon if it doesn't start.  I just checked, it worked for me.

 

Jim Glickenhaus also has the Ford MkIV Chassis J6 road registered in NY state - it finished 4th at LeMans in 1967 with Donohue and McLaren driving (the yellow MarkIV with Race number 2).

He also has what is claimed to be the Ferrari P3/P4 chassis 0846 fully restored and road registered with NY state plates, although its authenticity has been disputed.

 

More than disputed, there's overwhelming evidence that "0846" is built on a later replica P4 chassis, made for David Piper by Cantelli in Modena.

This was stamped "DP 0003" and sold to Glickenhaus with lost of other parts, including an early 312 F1 type engine, which was used in the build of this replica.

 

A well reasoned comment from DCN on this issue: https://forums.autos...-5#entry9638638

 

A massive thread on "0846" which have brought out all the evidence to - very effectively - contradict Mr Glickenhaus' claims about this cars alleged authenticity...

 

https://www.ferraric...-thread.423520/

[Emery0323]

More than disputed, there's overwhelming evidence that "0846" is built on a later replica P4 chassis, made for David Piper by Cantelli in Modena.

This was stamped "DP 0003" and sold to Glickenhaus with lost of other parts, including an early 312 F1 type engine, which was used in the build of this replica.

 

A well reasoned comment from DCN on this issue: https://forums.autos...-5#entry9638638

 

A massive thread on "0846" which have brought out all the evidence to - very effectively - contradict Mr Glickenhaus' claims about this cars alleged authenticity...

 

https://www.ferraric...-thread.423520/

Oh Yes, I'm well aware of all the evidence contradicting JG's claims about the putative Chassis #0846.  I did not want to reignite the debate in this thread, though.

[TerryS]

This post is about Ferrari P4 chassis # 0858. 

 

It was owned by Walter Medlin for over 30 years. It was only discovered when Hurricane Charley destroyed the warehouse in which it an s 40 other Ferraris were stored.

 

I researched this several years ago. Medlin is a fascinating character worth reading about. Suggest you Google "WALTER MEDLIN". Lots of sites there,

 

Amon and the rare Ferrari - Page 2 - The Nostalgia Forum - The Autosport Forums

 

I like post 12 particularly.

 

Missing Tasman Series Ferrari? (theroaringseason.com)

 

Start from post # 51

 

All interesting reading, but will make you cry if a Ferrari fan

Edited by TerryS, 21 August 2023 - 01:24.