28 replies to this topic

[Gregor Marshall]

http://www.thisislei...il/article.html

http://www.bailii.or...444.html#back12

[Allan Lupton]

news item

High Court transcript

Yes, and the appendix to the High Court transcript is Hubbard v Middlebridge Scimitar (aka "the "Old No 1" case") which was pretty interesting at the time (1990).
What we found elsewhere is exemplified in this case, which is that quite often people spend the price of a reasonable house on a car but do not do (or commission) any research beforehand to be sure that what they buy is what they think/hope it is.

[werks prototype]

http://www.thisislei...il/article.html

http://www.bailii.or...444.html#back12

The judgement makes fascinating reading.

[arttidesco]

As Alan suggests folks ought to be more careful before making a purchase equivalent to small a house on extremely old wheels but on the other hand folks selling old wheels for the price of a house ought to be far more careful about what they say this latest judgement will hopefully restore some common sense to the used racing car market. Glad to see the precedent of 'entity' is not quite as sacrosanct as the Old No 1 judgement would have us believe.

[Sharman]

I don't know where you folks live or in what circumstances but the price she paid equates with an effing big house to me

Edited by Sharman, 21 October 2010 - 15:46.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Must be a huge dent in Stanley Mann's reputation.

[Allan Lupton]

I don't know where you folks live or in what circumstances but the price she paid equates with an effing big house to me

£430k gets you a 4-bed Edwardian Arts & Crafts house here in Letchworth or one of the better 3-bed jobs.

[David Birchall]

"Stan LeMans Replicas"

[Red Socks]

The butchers boy certainly takes a spanking.
You can see why both defendants have been leave to and have appealed.
I can think of a few old racing car vendors who might be troubled by this judgement.

[Sharman]

£430k gets you a 4-bed Edwardian Arts & Crafts house here in Letchworth or one of the better 3-bed jobs.

I could build you a detached house on 1500 sq m 4 bed two bath etc for £225000 down here and put you a heated outdoor pool in for another £20000.

[Robin Fairservice]

May be a moral to this story is that one shouldn't sell a vintage car to a lawyer!

From the many stories told on this Forum about dubious provenances. it is surprising that there haven't beem more such cases.

In this case, the buyer apparently admitted to wanting a car that would appreciate in value, and presumably has seen some of the auction prices for Speed 6 Bentleys. If that was me, I would have wondered why the car's price was so much lower.

[arttidesco]

I could build you a detached house on 1500 sq m 4 bed two bath etc for £225000 down here and put you a heated outdoor pool in for another £20000.

Round here you would be hard pushed to buy a piece of land for under £300,000 on which to put a 4 bed 2 bath 1500 sq detached house, you might get something big enough for the pool though

[Allan Lupton]

Round here you would be hard pushed to buy a piece of land for under £300,000 on which to put a 4 bed 2 bath 1500 sq detached house, you might get something big enough for the pool though

Exactly so - we are talking about market price, not construction cost. Same as Vintage cars really in that you can make a "type 35" cheaper than the open market price of a real one.
Or a Bentley Speed Six. . .

[Terry Walker]

The Vintage Bentley types are a different breed from regular Vintage Car types. They really use their cars hard even today - race hard, rally hard, Paris-Peking, full-bore touring, a what-the-hell, pedal-to-the-metal attitude. It is doubtful if you will find any "standard" Vintage Bentley any more. Even back in the 50s and 60s, swapping gearboxes, engines, chassis, was routine. They seemed to have regarded them as a sort of smorgasbord of interchangeable bits and bobs. 8-litre engines in 3-litre chassis, cut-and-shut, ditching old saloon bodies and replacing them with Vanden Plas replicas, just to have fun with their Bentleys. Not at all the same attitude as investment collectors, matching number collectors, and concours d'elegance collectors. It's quite a different world - the Club is the Bentley Drivers' Club, not the Bentley Owners' Club, and boy do they drive those things.

Very interesting read though.

Edited by Terry Walker, 22 October 2010 - 12:26.

[hipperson]

Quite amazed Stanley Mann let this run to court when by reading the above he was on a loser.
Fortis Lease will drop Mann like a hot potato now and not many HP companies will offer to take his business on.
I have been in finance brokerage since 1971 and this s**t spreads like wildfire.

On due diligence...... a company with a previously good name will in theory be trusted more than your average sharp suited ,Audi driving, long black coated Estate Agent. It's easy to get sucked into a car purchase made with the 'heart' rather than the 'head'.

I've been there !

Edited by hipperson, 22 October 2010 - 13:04.

[werks prototype]

Shouldn't the 'classic car enthusiast' always be employing the services of an equivalent "Bonhams expert" regardless.

I wonder if this really is a "one off"?

[hipperson]

That value vehicle..yes........inspection would be £500 well spent ( in hindsight)

[arttidesco]

Mr Manns ads in Motor Sport for PG 6345 from 1980 referred to by Mr James in his letter make interesting reading

March 1980 Page 433

"1930 Speed Six. After three years work we now offer restored Speed Six. Total restoration, chassis, engine, Le Mans replica. 4 seater open tourer bodywork, cycle racing wings, large tank etc etc. Photo shows chassis under re-construction. Mint car. Not overpriced" Car shown bare chassis two axles radiator grill and engine Reg plate PG 6345.

April 1980 Page 593

"Speed Six Chassis. Restored" next to same pic as above.

July 1980 Page 1119

"1930 Bentley Speed Six Le Mans Replica, sensibly priced. Photo shows car during restoration." below same pic as above.

No mention of the 1927 6 1/2 litre engine.

Makes me shudder to think how many other 'mint' cars might have chassis that are essentially three piece junkyard assemblages :-)

Ultimately one can't help but feel the vendor was being a little too carefree with his descriptions and that the Brewsters were not quite the experts they thought they were, surely checking the engine number before purchase would have been essential and told them the truth about why this car was reasonably priced since most proper Speed Sixes were fetching upwards of 4 times the asking price for PG 6345.

Either way I can't help but feel the car was a sound investment since I bet Mr James did not pay £ 325,000 when he purchased the car in 1980/81.

[Guido22]

I think it's a good judgement as it will make many dealers etc think twice before emblissing cars history. The planned appeal will probbably fail, more legal costs to pay......ah the folly......

[werks prototype]

Nothing wrong with a bit of folly. Pride comes before a fall and all that! (Assuming there is further to fall)

But, what a tragic waste of resources for all those involved. Material and emotional.

Edited by werks prototype, 23 October 2010 - 19:32.

[Derwent Motorsport]

It will be interesting to see how much publicity this gets in the classic press, particularly where Mann advertises, like C&SC and MS. Adertising revenue will be more important than truth!

[Guido22]

It will be interesting to see how much publicity this gets in the classic press, particularly where Mann advertises, like C&SC and MS. Adertising revenue will be more important than truth!

Yes I agree, still word gets around, just look at the well known auction that used to trade from mews in central london.

[Red Socks]

I think it's a good judgement as it will make many dealers etc think twice before emblissing cars history. The planned appeal will probbably fail, more legal costs to pay......ah the folly......

The judgement looks pretty comprehensive to me , which led me to speculate about the appeal.
I can't help but wonder whether there are a string of other similar cases sitting in the wings which if the judgement stands or the appeal fails will come out of the woodwork at great expense to the defendants.

[arttidesco]

It will be interesting to find out what grounds the appeal has been allowed on, technically the Brewsters seem to have all the bases covered they had a far better expert witness, the judge seems to have found Mrs B wholly credible and Mr Mann less so. An appeal will either have to come up with fresh evidence or dispute the legal procedure. Either way Mrs B and Mr Mann will both be losing hand over fist compared to the lawyers.

[Guido22]

It will be interesting to find out what grounds the appeal has been allowed on, technically the Brewsters seem to have all the bases covered they had a far better expert witness, the judge seems to have found Mrs B wholly credible and Mr Mann less so. An appeal will either have to come up with fresh evidence or dispute the legal procedure. Either way Mrs B and Mr Mann will both be losing hand over fist compared to the lawyers.

I belive Mr Mann is trying to save face by saying that he will appeal...........the last desperate...........

[ianselva]

That value vehicle..yes........inspection would be £500 well spent ( in hindsight)

After reading the article ,I was glancing through an auction report in The Automobile and there was " An impressive Bentley Speed Six tourer was driven in. Although it had started life as a Lancefield limousine it had been rebodied in 1938" as a Speed Six. I wonder if the purchaser has read the article as its obviously still happening.

[David Birchall]

After reading the article ,I was glancing through an auction report in The Automobile and there was " An impressive Bentley Speed Six tourer was driven in. Although it had started life as a Lancefield limousine it had been rebodied in 1938" as a Speed Six. I wonder if the purchaser has read the article as its obviously still happening.

That sounds like a very appealing car and quite different to the car in dispute. The car you mention started life as a Speed Six and was rebodied prewar-lots of good provenance there.

There is a magnificent Bentley making the rounds of the auctions, it is powered by an eight liter engine-essentially an enlarged Speed Six engine-and has a very elegant coupe' body. It transpires that the car is built on the chassis side members of a Bentley four liter-which are identical to an eight liter-and the body is a replica of a show car produced by Gurney Nutting in period. The overall effect is spectacular, the cost to build horrendous, and nobody is stepping up to buy it. It would make a magnificent tow vehicle for one's ERA!!

[Terry Walker]

There's a bloke here in Perth who bought a barn-find 3 litre Bentley with a touring body - not the skimpy Vandenplas so beloved of Bentley owners these days but a boxier all-metal job. He hasn't restored it, and it's name is "Scruffy". Some time in the 50s it was re-uphostered in cheap green vinyl and it had what look like offcuts of domestic wilton carpet on the floor, and must be one of the last unrestored tatty non-Vandenplas three litres left alive. No doubt when it moves on to a new owner it will suddenly re-appear Pebble-Beached to an inch of its life with a replica Vandenplas body, and will have lost its history.

[arttidesco]

Lets hope not Terry, I am sure there is someone out there who could afford to buy it and preserve it for its rarity and originality :-)