67 replies to this topic

[Maldwyn]

Why did Enzo Ferrari never keep his racing cars? I've read he used to scrap them at the end of a season
Also when did this practice end and is there now a Ferrari museum for surviving cars?

[Barry Boor]

I believe Enzo treated his old cars like cast-off mistresses. Surplus to requirements. Why did he stop doing it? Well, I gather that when you are getting on, having a few old mistresses around reminds you of what you once were.

Now someone will tell us the REAL reason.

[mono-posto]

I've heard that it was simply because Enzo had a philosophy of looking forward. He had no place for Nostalgia. (Sorry guys). The future is were his mind was directed, so little heed was given to last years cars.

If they could be used in the manufacture of the newest beast, then so be it, and many were.

Right now, I don't have any quotes to back this up, but I have read along these lines.

[Wolf]

OT, mono-posto, but whose quote is in your sig?

[mono-posto]

I picked it up out of Karl Ludvigsen's new book on Alberto Ascari. It is from Peter Walker at the Italian GP 1952.

[Maldwyn]

The reason I ask is that I read about Phil Hill's reaction to seeing the "sharknose" replica at Goodwood and it seems tragic that no original examples remain.

[Michael Müller]

At least in the early years nothing was scrapped, all cars had been either sold to privateers, or used as basis for new models. Know that the 156 sharknoses had been scrapped, most probably due to the death of Count Berghe von Trips.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
At least in the early years nothing was scrapped, all cars had been either sold to privateers, or used as basis for new models. Know that the 156 sharknoses had been scrapped, most probably due to the death of Count Berghe von Trips.

Couldn't have been anything todo with von Trips' death as they raced for another year. Most likely thay were obsolete and of no further interest.

[Michael Müller]

May be the 156 was so good, that Enzo was afraid to sell it to privateers in order to eliminate potential competition. He always tried to make money out of everything, but only if no serious competition to the Scuderia could be expected.

In 1949 Ferrari sold a new tipo 166 F2 to the Automobile Club of Argentina, which only a few days after delivery was entered with Fangio for the Autodromo F2 Grand Prix at Monza, against strong competition by the SF itself. During testing Fangio realized that the 5th gear was not working, and - strange enough - the Ferrari mechanics had been unable to fix the problem. Fangio did exactly what Enzo was afraid of - he won the race! As catch no. 1 did not work, Ferrari stepped over to catch no. 2 - as the car was not paid yet by the ACA, Fangio's Monza entry was declared as a works entry, and so everything was all right again - victory for the Scuderia Ferrari. And even today the statistics show Fangio as Ferrari works driver in 1949 ....!

[Dennis David]

Actually they were also scrapped in earlier years. Those that couldn't be sold were used for parts.

[fines]

Ferrari stopped selling GP cars in the mid-fifties, with the Rosier-625 being the last one IIRC. Thereafter only Scuderia St. Ambroeus in 1961 and Scuderia Everest (forerunner of Minardi) in 1976 were sold previous year's cars, but some have leaked out to collectors such as Pierre Bardinon, who has a few of the sixties' and seventies' cars.

Others have been kept by the factory, such as the infamous "snow-plough" of 1972 (c/n 0009) that never raced. Of the fifties' cars only those survived that were sold to customers, including the three Tipo 375s that were sold to Indianapolis entrants Howard Keck, Johnny Mauro and Gerry Grant in 1952.

That's all from the top of my head, but I am curious to find out that I might be wrong after all.[p][Edited by fines on 01-04-2001]

[fines]

Ah yes, and Bernie Ecclestone has also a Tipo 375 in his collection, a pre-Indy type.

[twymanj]

From what I have been told Enzo Ferrari scrapped his cars because he didn't want privateers running them and making them look bad by finishing in lowly positions and tarnishing the Ferrari name by poor reliability.

[Michael Müller]

From the early years (1948-50) only customer cars could survive, because everything has been sold by Ferrari. Out of a total of 20 cars (F1 & F2) of the pre-375 era we only know 7 survivors, which are the 2 ACA Formula Libre, Whitehead’s 125 # 0114, Thinwall Special No. 2/3 (in pieces), Bardinon’s # 06C (probably frame / chassis only original), the 212 # 0102, and a tipo 166 F2 in the Galleria Ferrari (which I doubt is an original, any details known?).
The remaining cars had not been scrapped by Ferrari, but got lost in history in private hands.

[fines]

Come to think of it, one of the Tipo 500/625 has resided for many years in a barn here in Bitburg, just down the road where I live and sit right now!

[fines]

Got it! It was c/n 0208, the old Garage/Écurie Francorchamps car in which Charles de Tornaco lost his life, reputedly restamped 0540 in 1955 for de Portago to drive at Oulton Park. It was acquired by Ferrari collector Peter Fandel of Bitburg in 1993 and sold in a fit of pique when Fandel was refused the right to buy a new Ferrari street model (F50 ?) in 1998!

[Don Capps]

When Fiat saved Scuderia Ferrari with its big bail-out in 1955 is about where you can see the line drawn from when Ferrari sold its GP cars to all and sundary: prior to that Ferrari frankly needed the money. After that, it was policy to junk them when their usefulness was up. The 156 Dinos were scrapped at the end of 1962 for reasons having nothing to do with von Trips -- try Carlo Chiti! A few did escape, but only into the wilds of the Down Under or South America -- thanks goodness, otherwise some tipos would not exist in any fashion today!

There are a number of pictures here and there of the scrapped Ferrari GP cars. However, in recent years a lucrative trade in obsolete GP cars made selling the cars to collectors a good business proposition...

[Roger Clark]

In Modena Racing Memories, Graham Gauld writes:
"It is sometimes difficult to understand that enzo Ferrai had littl or no interest in his racing cars once he was finished with them. At Maranello there was a small covered area in which the old cars were dumped...I walked through the courtyard and found an open-sided concrete pen. Inside was a true Aladdin's cave with a pile of Lanci-Ferrari cahassis and bodywork, already covered in bird droppings, waiting for the local scrap merchant to come along and chop them up, or take them away."

this was only weeks after their last race.

[Allen Brown]

I'm not sure why Ferrari scrapped cars but I can at least help with when they stopped doing it. All F1 cars prior to 1963 were scrapped but one of the 1963 cars survived - the car at Mulhouse. Thereafter it seems that all were kept and sold off to collectors - usually a minimum of 18 months after they became redundant.

One of the 1964 V8s was sold off and the other became the 246T "Tasman" car of 1966 (intended for Surtees in Tasman but not used there because of his crash). All three 1965 1512s are now in private hands and I can account for every car built after that up to the start of the turbos (sorry - I only cover 1.5-litre and 3-litre F1).

As far as I can tell, the factory never kept a car for display purposes after that initial 1/2-year period. The 1972 Spazzaneve or "Snowplough" 312B3/72 was sold to Anthony Bamford some time between October 1974 and July 1976; went to Hayashi in 1983; then via Adrian Hamilton to Albert Obrist (roughly 1990) and was sold to Guido Ferrari (no relation) in 1991. Guido Ferrari still owned it as recently as 1998 but it may have moved since then.

Allen

[fines]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The 1972 Spazzaneve or "Snowplough" 312B3/72 was (...) sold to Guido Ferrari (no relation) in 1991. Guido Ferrari still owned it as recently as 1998 but it may have moved since then.

Ahh, it seems I got that confused! Thank you, Allen!

[David McKinney]

Michael M:
I'm not sure of your definition of ‘pre-375’ - cars built before the first 375, or designed before the first 375?
Last time I visited the Schlumpf museum, anout five years ago, they had a 166 numbered ‘001-F’, which they claimed was ex-Espadon (is this what happened to 166-06C?). They also had ‘110’, the ex-Espadon 212.
In addition, the 166 No.‘118’, supposedly ex-works and Scuderia Marzotto, was owned by René Mauries in France in the 1990s and now believed to be in the collection of a Mr B Ecclestone
There are also a couple of other early cars I have notes about: Tazio Taraschi was racing a 166 in historic events about ten years ago, and a 125 with 212 engine was offered at a Ferrari auction (don’t remember whose) in 1988.
Any thoughts?

[fines]

The car of Tazio Taraschi (what a name!) could be the same as the one Berardo Taraschi used in the mid-fifties, probably c/n 50-02, one of the 1950 works-F2 cars with deDion rear axle. These cars were pretty identical to the 375. The one auctioned in 1988 was probably c/n 102, while the others will very probably excite Michael even more!

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by David McKinney
... they had a 166 numbered ‘001-F’, which they claimed was ex-Espadon (is this what happened to 166-06C?).

No, never the 06C. David, that note mad me scrapping my head. We know, that 001F first was owned by Count Sterzi. He crashed the car during 1949, than we lost it's (proved) track. We always believed, that the Ex-Espadon-car in the Schlumpf-collection was 12C (?!). Are you sure, it was 001F (or correct '01F'?) ?

Originally posted by David McKinney
... They also had ‘110’, the ex-Espadon 212.

That's what we have. The Espadon 212 most probably had been an ex-Scuderia long-wheelbase (2420 mm, like 08C - 12C F1) 166 in it's earliest days (1949). But we are not able to prove that car's career certain enough. '110' (or '0110'?) was a typical 'customer s/n' and for sure a restamped older chassis.

Originally posted by David McKinney
In addition, the 166 No.‘118’, supposedly ex-works and Scuderia Marzotto, was owned by René Mauries in France in the 1990s and now believed to be in the collection of a Mr B Ecclestone

Would be interesting, whether the car was fitted with the De Dion rear axle or not. Marzotto owned at least three 166 cars. David, from where do you have this information about the s/n '118' (or is it 0118'?)

Originally posted by David McKinney
There are also a couple of other early cars I have notes about: Tazio Taraschi was racing a 166 in historic events about ten years ago ...

Do you have more facts about that car?

Originally posted by David McKinney
... and a 125 with 212 engine was offered at a Ferrari auction (don’t remember whose) in 1988.
Any thoughts?

If the car is authentic, it can only be the ex-Scuderia-212, probably Ferrari's first deDion-F1, raced only on time at Bern in 1950 and maybe rebuilt during winter 1950/51 as a 212 for some experiments. It was raced only twice by Serafini in early 1951.


______________________________________________

A happy new year to all Forum-Members ...

[Michael Müller]

With pre-375 I mean all monoposti built between 1948 and 1950 excluding the 375, and including both 1951 212, which are – most probably – based on 1950 cars.
Fully agree with Egon’s comments, for those not knowing, we are working very close together on certain projects.

Both Espadon cars slipped through in my listing, sorry for that. 212-0110 is well known and used by Fischer and others extensively during 1951-53, and the other Espadon car acc. to our knowledge is the ex-Peter Staechelin car, who raced it under Espadon flag in the first half of 1951. The Schlumpf car most probably is fitted with a 166 F2 engine, but the alternative 125 F1 engine – numbered “12C” - is also owned by the museum, and described as “ex-Staechelin”. # 12 C was a 1949 works F1 car, which has been used by the Scuderia also in 1950, in F1 but also in F2 specification. The number “001F” we see the first time, it may be that this (or “01F”) is engine number only, meaning that the 166 engine of Sterzi’s # 01F found its way to # 12C, may be in 1950 when coverted by Ferrari to F2. There is also of course a possibility that Staechelin’s car was not # 12C, but Sterzi’s # 01F (or 001F??), but that would give no explanation for the F1 engine # 12C, which obviously accompanied the car, but was never used by Staechelin (as far we know).

The Schlumpf collection also has a tipo 500, don’t know the origin of this car, but if also ex-Espadon, it seems that the Schlumpf brothers accquired the whole Expadon car park after they stopped racing end of 1953. Anybody knowing details?

The car sold in 1988 was the tipo 212 # 0102 mentioned by me already. If its history is correct, is was in fact the car described by Egon, which disappeared in 1951, and discovered (?) by collector Massimo Colombo in the mid 80’s. After restoration it has been sold in 1988 to Japan, then to the US some years ago, and has been auctioned in August this year at Monterey. Current owner is reported to be David Scaife (USA).

The existance of the Taraschi car in fact was not known to me. Fines is correct, in 1955 and 1956 Berardo Taraschi raced sporadically the ex-Marzotto 166 F2, probably # GP2-50, a works car in 1950. As the car was rather outdated in 1956, it may well be that it has been kept within the Taraschi family.
Taraschi was partner with Attilio Giannini in the “Giaur” project, interesting enough for a separate topic, anybody with more detailed information ready to start it?

Also not known to me is # 0118, most probably a renumbering of an ex-works car, like # 0102, # 0110, and # 0114. If also ex-Marzotto, it could be the other DeDion F2, # GP1-49, but I also do not exclude that it is identical with the Taraschi car.

Any photo of the Schlumpf 12C / 001F car, and of the Taraschi and / or Mauries car(s) are highly required. Anybody able to help?

[David McKinney]

Michael, Egon, Michael:
Why did I let myself get caught up in this?
I'll go through everything again and get back later

[Michael Müller]

Checked again, and found out that the car at the Ferrari Museum is described as "Tipo 166 # 0112". Have no information about c/n 0112, but obviously it is a renumbering from early 1951. Strange thing is that this car still has a swing axle, so must be from the 1949 F-series. However, it looks completely different. The Marzotto swing axle car - probably 09F - at least mid 1951 still had the original bodywork.

[Gil Bouffard]

I remember a photograph of the Ferrari scrapyard in a magazine years ago showing D50 Lancias and Ferrari 801s. The thing I remember was that there were no engines in the scrapyard.

re: The "Sharknosed" Ferrari 156. According to another magazine, Ferrari was so angered by Phil Hill, Giancarlo Baghetti and Carlo Chiti's defection to ATS that he had the 156 cars destroyed.

According to Gino Rancati, "Ferrari A Memory." there were two significant bailouts for Ferrari in 1955. Lancia turned over their entire racingorganization and FIAT gave Ferrari a "gift," of 250 Million lira to be paid over five years.

[David McKinney]

The Musée Nationale acquired their ex-Espadon cars in 1987, I think from the Siffert estate. So perhaps they all stayed in Swiss ownership after Espadon had finished with them.
I took the numbers down on a visit to Moulhouse in 1994, either from chassis-plates, where applicable, or from other detail supplied by the Musée. So ‘001-F’ would have been what they claimed.
The Schlumpf collection appears to have not one but two four-cylinder cars, 0152M, still in 500 spec, and 0184, as a 625. Until seeing 0152M it existed in my records only as a sales reference to it being a 500 monoposto.
118 is the number of the car owned in England around 1990, and claimed to be a 1950 works F2 car (Ascari) raced by Squadra Marzotto 1951. It was apparently still in Italy in 1972, though there is also a rumour that it had raced in Argentina with a supercharged 2-litre engine, and was returned to Italy in 1972. Mauries owned it from 1993 to 1997, when it was sold at auction in Paris. The catalogue notes accord with my story, but I do not have them to reproduce in full.
I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions about Tazio Taraschi racing his father’s old mount. It might have been, or it might not. I never actually saw Tazio race it in the late 80s, so can’t help with its rear suspension layout. Nor did I ever hear a history claimed for it.
I like your use of the term “if authentic”, Egon. I suspect it could also be applied to other cars on this list. The thing to bear in mind in all this is that, if an usncrupulous person wanted to create a complete fake, and invent a history for it, the skyrocketing prices of the middle to late 1980s would have been the time to do it.
On the subject of the Giaur, I don’t have enough information to start a new thread. Taraschi had been racing his own 750cc Urania cars in the small sportscar class and in 1950 joined with Domenico Giannini, who had been producing cars under his own name for the same class. I believe their first joint project was a Urania-based Formula Three single-seater, apparently initially called the Gia-Ur.

[Barry Lake]

David
Since you seem to have so much information on early Ferraris, perhaps you could enlighten me on the "Super Squalo" models brought to New Zealand and Australia by Peter Whitehead and Reg Parnell in the mid-1950s.
I always thought they were very odd looking cars, not like any F1 Super Squalos I had seen in photos.
Do you know their background?

[Michael Müller]

David, thanks a lot for your additional information.
I have to admit that the 375 and the 500 we only touched sporadically during our research, as still so much is unclear with respect to the earlier tipos 125, 166, 275, and 340. # 0184F in fact was the Espadon car, but the 625 engine is strange, as no entries in 1954 or later are known to us. # 0152M looks very strange. The “M” points to a tipo MM, and the number itself was a tipo 225 Sport Vignale Berlinetta, # 0152EL.

Early 1951 Ferrari made a kind of clean-up, as they sold a lot of 1949 and 1950 works cars, and all these cars received the new 4-digit renumberings, which – strange enough – cross with that of the sports cars. If Staechelin really bought the 125/166 # 12C, it would be logical that this car also was restamped with the new customer car numbering system. We now know 0102, 0110, 0112, 0114, 0116, and 0118, so theoretically 0104, 0106, and 0108 are open.
On the other side, I will not exclude that Staechelin bought the ex-Sterzi tipo 166, which was crashed at Garda 1949. Sterzi stopped formula racing after that accident, and we don’t know the further history of the car, may be it was even a total loss. The number 001F keeps us thinking, as up to now Sterzi’s car is reported as 01F. The only other proven number of this series is 011F, the ACA Formula Libre, so 001F would make sense, no question. The numbering of the works cars most probably was 03F/003F to 09F/009F, but as they received also the a.m. 4-digit customer numbers when sold, this is nearly impossible to prove.
As said already, a photo of the car in the Schlumpf collection would be helpful, but even better would be period photo from 1951. For those who like to check their archives, Staechelin raced the car at Siracusa (11 March 1951), Bordeaux (29 April 1951), Monza (13 May 1951), and Genova (20 May 1951).
# 12C was raced by the Scuderia Ferrari end of 1950 still with original bodywork, so most probably Staechelin used it unchanged. 01F/001F was heavily damaged, so probably a new body was necessary, which may differ from the original one.
As said already, it may be that 01F/001F after Sterzi’s crash has been returned to Maranello and broken up, with engine 001F found its way to the 125 # 12C to make it suitable for F2 events. On the other side, if the Schlumpf car really is 01F/001F, why the F1 engine # 12C which has never been used by Staechelin?

Scuderia Marzotto early 1951 bought 3 cars from the SF, both F2/50 (DeDion axle), and an older 1949 model with swing axle. Obviously all 3 cars had been renumbered with the new 4-digit system. However, at least the 2 F2/50 had been returned later that year to Ferrari, because Marzotto was upset, when Ferrari introduced the new tipo 500 F2 car. It seems so that Ferrari promised to stay out of F2, with the effect that Scuderia Marzotto would have been a kind of works team. The cars then used by Ferrari sporadically till end of 1951, but had been finally sold then. To whom, up to now is not clear. One obviously found its way to Taraschi. Other 166’s (F2/49 or F2/50?) appeared in 1952 with Franco Comotti and Armand Philippe. Anybody having details?

Concerning “authenticity” I would like to revert to earlier threads in this forum, especially those about the “GGG” (Gordon-Gecko-Gang). By no means I would call any actual car a replica, except this is either proven (how??), or admitted by the owner. However, doubts sometimes are obvious, but one has to use the legally correct terms. And as already said in the GGG thread, the early Ferrari monoposti history still has a lot of gaps and lost cars, and therefore is an ideal playground for the GGG. Watch out!

[David McKinney]

The Ferraris which raced in Australia and NZ in 1956/57 were quite unlike the 1954 Squalos, but not too different from the 1955 Supersqualos. Apparently the Whitehead and Parnell cars were 1955 works F1 cars, of which four were built. Chassis No.01 was raced by Farina, Trintignant and Taruffi, No.02 by Farina, Schell, Frere, Castellotti and Maglioli, though some sources (eg Doug Nye) allocate them differently, and may well be right.
After use in Argentina at the start of 1956 the Supersqualos were pushed aside until the end of the season, when “our” two were rebuilt and fitted with four-cylinder 3422cc engines for the Whitehead/Parnell Australasian sortie, and given new numbers at the same time. Confusingly, 01 became FL/9002 and 02 became FL/9001,
I have often wondered if this project had started as the next stage in the Whitehead/Gaze partnership - I’m sure you know someone you can ask!
FL/9001 was Whitehead’s mount (first at Wigram and Ryal Bush), and FL/9002 Parnell’s (winner at Ardmore and Dunedin). They were entered in the NZ races under the Scuderia Ambrosiana banner, and may have been so entered in the preceding Olympic GP at Albert Park as well. Both were sold to New Zealanders, and I can finish their story if you wish: your question was however about their background, so I’ll leave it there for the moment.
Getting back to your comment on the shape. I saw FL/9001 under restoration at Tony Merrick’s establishment in 1993, and he asked if I knew why the bonnet-line on the Ambrosiana cars continued straight to the scuttle, whereas on the F1 cars it curved up before the aeroscreen. My suggestion was that the 860 engine was taller than the 555, but apparently it wasn’t. He rebuilt the car to F1 shape.

[Barry Lake]

I know some of their subsequent history, but it is a long time ago that I studied it. If you are able to rattle it all off as quickly as that, I would love to see it. Please continue.

I always thought they were ugly looking cars - uglier than the 1955 F1 versions. The 1954 car (Hawthorn, Spanish GP?) wasn't a bad looking thing.

Tony Gaze said Whitehead's Super Squalo was never as good as his 500/625. He said Whitehead wanted him to buy one of the later cars (he must have been given a better deal if he bought two rather than one) but Mike Hawthorn told Tony he was better off to stay with the one he had (which he did). Good advice indeed, as it turned out.

[David McKinney]

Someone’s mixed things up a bit here, Barry....
1955: Whitehead and Gaze raced 500/625s
1956: Gaze kept his car in the same format; Whitehead had his updated to ‘Argentina’ spec, ie with revised suspension and bodywork
1957: Whitehead and Parnell raced Supersqualos

Gaze told me many years ago that Whitehead had wanted him to update his 500/625 to Argentina spec but Hawthorn said he’d be better off sticking with what he had....
I'll get on to the Australasian Supersqualo updates a bit later

[David McKinney]

After their successful campaign the Supersqualos were sold to NZ drivers. The spectacular Tom Clark acquired the ex-Whitehead car (FL/9001) while Parnell’s (FL/9002) went to John McMillan. Clark won first time out on the Mairehau road circuit and again on the 1-mile Levin circuit, with McMillan third and sixth respectively. Both men later took their cars to Australia, and both crashed. McMillan rebuilt his and sold it, while Clark spent the next few months in hospital recovering from multiple injuries sustained in his Bathurst accident.
New owner of McMillan’s car was Arnold Glass, who retained the New Zealander as his mechanic (long after the Ferrari was sold, I believe). When Glass moved on to a 250F Maserati at the beginning of 1959 the Supersqualo passed through the hands of Arthur Griffiths, Des Kelley and Werner Grieve before fetching up in the Giltrap Museum in Queensland.
Clark had meanwhile been reunited with his Supersqualo at Bathurst in October 1958, exactly 12 months after his accident. He also competed at Albert Park and then in the NZ races, ending his driving career with another win - and a new lap record - at that most unsuitable of venues for a big front-engined GP car, Levin.
The car’s next owner was Bob Smith, but by the time he got used to it the car was well outclasssed by newer machinery. He rebuilt it with a new body, extending its life to 1963.
At that time championship saloon racing in NZ was virtually without rules: if a car had a roof, it was a saloon. Thus you had not only Mk2 Ford Zephyrs with 4.6-litre Corvette engines but similarly-powered 105E Anglias and Renault Dauphines and even a Fiat Toplino with a Ford V8 engine. When David McKay took the Scuderia Veloce Ferrari 250LM to NZ in 1966, Spencer Martin was allowed to race it as a saloon (admittedly at only one meeting!)
What, you might ask, has saloon racing to do with a GP Ferrari? That’s right, some bright spark (name of Garth Souness) popped a low-light Morris Minor body onto the Ferrari chassis, slotted a Corvette engine under the bonnet, and took on the best. Now known as the “Morrari”, this orange blob did not race much away from Pukekohe, but proved capable of beating everyone else there on at least one occasion.
Around 1968 restorer Gavin Bain acquired the car, whose original engine had long since disappeared. After desperate attempts to locate a replacement he gave up and in 1973 swapped the car with English collector Nigel Moores (remember him?) for a 375MM sportscar. Moores’s other projects meant he hadn’t got around to rebuilding the Supersqualo before his death in 1977, and it was tied up in the estate for many years after that. It finally passed, together with most of the rest of the Moores collection, to Yoshiyuki Hayashi in Japan around 1988.
Its restoration, to original F1 spec, was completed for Hayashi by Tony Merrick in the UK, since when the car has appeared at various historic races entered by Nick Harley for drivers such as Willie Green, Martin Stretton and Merrick. In Stretton’s hands it beat all the 250Fs at Monaco in May 2000.
The Giltrap car had appeared in historic events in Australia in the hands of Noel Tuckey (and others?) as long ago as 1977 and later passed into the ownership of collector Ian Cummings before being sold in the late 1980s by way of the USA to Albert Obrist, who added it to his huge Ferrari collection in Switzerland. The collection was dismantled in 1997, and I believe the Supersqualo was among the cars acquired by Bernie Ecclestone.

[Milan Fistonic]

Strange that the Super Squalos should be mentioned the day after I came across this article by David Mckay in the March 1957 edition of Modern Motor. It is titled On the Grid for 1957 and lists who is supposed to be driving what in Australia in 1975.

Still at the head of things in this department (big monopostos) is Stan Jones in the Monaco F1 Maserati. By virtue of his experience with the car he must be called No. 1, but pressing him in the near future should be Lex Davison, who is taking over Peter Whitehead’s 3.4-litre Ferrari. This is a good, fast car, even though extensive modifications have spoiled its original Super Squalo lines.
Davison’s Ferrari has the sports engine, which develops a good 300 b.h.p. with sewing machine reliability. Roadholding has been improved by lengthening the chassis, and Davison should find his touch quickly after spending a year in the ex-Gaze 3-litre Ferrari.
Bib Stillwell, who drove Hunt’s 1955 model F1 Maserati in New Zealand, intends to take over the sister-car to Peter Whitehead’s – the 3.4-litre Ferrari in which Parnell won the Auckland G.P. But he’ll have to wait till after the Invercargill (N.Z.) meeting in February, when the Whitehead chief-of-staff, Stan Elsworth, will overhaul the engines and chassis of both cars and ship them to Melbourne. Stillwell may continue to pedal the Hunt car till the Ferrari is ready as Hunt is temporarily out of the picture, preparing for a trip to Europe to get more experience and another mount. Stillwell is making a return to monoposto racing after a spell of some years climaxed by his very good 1956 season in the D-type Jaguar…..

…. The two Ferraris were originally under offer to Sydneysiders John Aldis and Arnold Glass – but later these boys turned their attention to the Maseratis of Moss and Behra, John wanting the 3-litre car and Arnold the F1 Spa Maserati.
The deal was almost finalised when the Australians discovered the cars were in a ship which was ready to sail, and that team manager Ugolini was back in Italy. The shipping company wouldn’t release the cars without Ugolini’s say-so, and the ship sailed before contact could be made. Consequently John and Arnold now intend flying to Italy late in January and will collect the cars at Modena.
Arnold is anxious to get cracking here with his car and hopes to be back by March; but Aldis thinks he’ll try for a spot of tuition first, maybe at the racing-drivers’ class which will be run by the Swiss Automobile Club in May.
John has no illusions about his driving ability. Keen students of form who are rightly alarmed when such lethal cars are to be handled I open company by virtual beginners will applaud his decision.

This raises some questions:

1. How could McKay have got it so wrong?
2. Who was John Aldis and what did he drive in the future?
3. Why does McKay refer to the Maseratis as the Monaco and Spa models?

In case anybody is wondering why a Morris Minor body was used on the Morrari, Glen Jones, who helped Souness build the car, told me they went out one evening round the car yards checking the wheelbase of various cars till they found one that would fit the Ferrari chassis and the Minor was it.

[David McKinney]

I believe it all had to do with import restrictions, Milan. Straight after the Albert Park race the works 250F Maseratis were reported to be going to Doug Whiteford and someone else (Stillwell?), and I think customs was given as the reason for the deal falling through. Stillwell told me many years later that he and Whiteford bought the 300S sportscars instead, though Bib flicked his straight on to Reg Smith, presumably when the opportunity to take over Hunt’s 250F came up.
I hadn’t heard the Glass/Aldis connection with the Maseratis: perhaps they jumped a little later. Aldis had raced a Bristol saloon and had recently acquired the ex-Whitehead sports Cooper-Jaguar from Stan Jones. He raced this in 1957 and then I think faded from the scene.
He and Glass may indeed have gone to Italy but they certainly didn’t buy any 250Fs there.
I believe the same import restrictions was the reason the Supersqualos ended up in New Zealand and not Australia, though Glass of course got his a few months later. In hindsight the question arises of some arrangement between Glass and McMillan before the New Zealander bought the car?
Jones’s 250F had standard early-1956 bodywork, best known on the car with which Moss won that year’s Monaco GP, which is presumably the reason for McKay describing it in this manner. At Spa the same year a car appeared with longer nose and high cockpit sides, and this raced in Australia at the end of the year.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Someone’s mixed things up a bit here, Barry....
1955: Whitehead and Gaze raced 500/625s
1956: Gaze kept his car in the same format; Whitehead had his updated to ‘Argentina’ spec, ie with revised suspension and bodywork.

Sorry, David. I should learn not to make these statements after I have been up all night. It is a long time ago that Tony told me the same story as he told you about the Ferraris. For the past couple of years, when I have had time to concentrate on his story, I have been trying to sort out his WWII flying (about which I previously knew very little, so it's tough going for me).
The Ferrari stuff is stacked well down in my meory banks.
When I looked quickly at my notes, I saw, "...Peter wanted me to update to the later car..." and I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Thank you for correcting me.

[Barry Lake]

Milan and David

David McKay can be an extrememly painful person to deal with, but his reports are usually more accurate than most. He used to keep his finger very much on the pulse and knew what was going on around the place.

I would tend to believe that what he wrote, as quoted above, was correct at the time he wrote it. Strangely, although I used to devour every word in Modern MOTOR in those days, this particular report does not ring any bells - probably my mind erased it when it didn't happen.

David, you mention Werner Grieve as an owner of the Super Squalo Ferrari. I didn't remember that. I am fairly confident that he didn't ever race it, although he had made a couple of appearances in the ex-Gaze, ex-Davison HWM-Jaguar monoposto.

It is interesting that I always remember the German as "Werner Greve" when he drove on the speedway - I never saw it spelled any differently. But when he went road racing, he became "Werner Grieve". At the time I thought it was simply mis-spelling by whoever did the race programmes or race reports, because he was "Greve" to me.
Thinking about it, "Grieve" would seem to be correct German spelling. Perhaps they spelled it the wrong way when he started on speedway and just did it that way ever after.
One of life's little mysteries.

Interesting, too, to note David McKay's statement, "...even though extensive modifications have spoiled its original Super Squalo lines."
That helps to explain how they came out to be so ugly and so visually different from the originals.

Thank you again, David McKinney, for this information. You obviously have studied the subject at considerable length.

[David McKinney]

Not so much studying them, Barry, as absorbing it all through my pores when it was going on. Greve/Grieve owning the car but not racing it rings a bell. He certainly didn't do a lot of winning with it!
When I first got "hooked", there were no NZ motoring magazines - all we could get were Motor Manual, Wheels and Modern Motor (brown pages and all!), or occasionally the pom mags (Motor and Autocar). Only if you lived in a bigger centre than I did would you ever see MotorSport or Autosport. So it was in the Oz mags that I read most of my first racing stories - compounded later by Sports Car World, Australian Motor Sports and Racing Car News, by which time my interest was beginning to fade.
The point of this digression was to say that David McKay's stuff in Modern Motor was always worth taking notice of. Is he back in Oz, by the way, or still in Geneva, or does he do both?

[Barry Lake]

David

I last saw David McKay at the Media Day at the Sydney Motor Show a couple of months ago. His Swiss/French ex-school teacher wife from Geneva (Annie, I think she is known as, his third wife) and he live on the McKay family property at Exeter in the Southern Highlands, an hour or so drive, mostly on the Hume Freeway, from Sydney. They must have been together more than 15 years now, I would say. I think they occasionally still go back to Switzerland to visit her relatives.

David McKay has finished his second book, as I pointed out on another thread, probably to be called Scuderia Veloce. It is due to be released in the next few weeks. Compulsory reading for you, I would say. You could order one through The Pitstop Bookshop in Perth, Peter Lyster or Andrew Stevens, on info@pitstop.net.au

I think anyone interested in the careers of people like Chris Amon, Jackie Stewart, many Australian and New Zealand drivers, Ferrari F1 and sports-racing history, Cooper F1 history, Brabham F1 history, Tasman racing history, the histories of F1 cars outside of Europe, Lola etc, should be taking a hard look at this book. As you would know, David, there will be information in there that will not be found anywhere else, and it will be in greater depth than anything written by mere journalists. David was a driver himself and owner/manager of a major team for some considerable years.

McKay told me at the show that he wrote 200,000 words and it was edited down to 100,000 words. I contacted the publisher, Paul Armstrong, to ask if there was anything historically significant in what was cut out, so I could make arrangements to get a copy of it from David - for posterity. Paul said the only things cut out were "verbosity", and things not really relevant, like the "athletic ability of his wife in bed". He might have been joking, but he did say there was no need for concern that any motoring history had gone to the cutting room floor.

[Ray Bell]

Dredging matters up from antiquity, I ask what happened to the proposed 1966 (or was it 1965?) Surtees Tasman car? I think we have a mention of it at Monaco...
And what of the later Tasman cars, used by Amon and Bell in 1968 and 1969? What were they... F2 chassis?
One of them, of course, was 'privatised' into the hands of Graeme Lawrence, at the same time a Can-Am P4 went into Scuderia Veloce hands. I think David McKay may have organised the Lawrence deal as well as his own for Bill Brown to drive the Sports Car... but did both cars go back to the factory?
Paul Armstrong, by the way, is also an Historic Racer and seriously concerned with accuracy. I think we can probably trust him, I just look forward to seeing the book.

[Allen Brown]

The 1966 Surtees Tasman car wasn't used in Tasman as Surtees was injured (Lola T70 at Mosport - that's just from memory - I'm sure somepbody else will know) but the car was used in F1 in 1966. It then disappears but was said (Nye's Dino) to be in the Bardinon collection. I'd love to know where it is now.

The 1968/69 cars were based on F2 chassis. One is now in historic racing (Dudley Mason-Styrron or something - I haven't got my notes to hand); no idea where the other one is.

Allen

[David McKinney]

Although not widely known at the time, New Zealand champion Jim Palmer opened negotiations with the factory to race the 1965/66 2.4 car in the 1967 Tasman series (the year after the aborted Surtees programme). He went so far as to test the car at the factory, but difficulties with fuel contracts meant the deal could not be finalised.
After his two seasons with the ex-Amon F2-based car, Graeme Lawrence sold it direct to Pierre Bardinon in 1971. Some time between 1982 and 1987 it passed to Italian Ferrari collector Fabrizio Violati, and is an exhibit in the Collezione Maranello Rosso in San Marino - or was three months ago.
The car Derek Bell raced in the 1969 Tasman has been with Dudley and Sally Mason-Styrron since 1980, and has been used in hillclimbs (but I don’t think anything else) since then. The only thing I know of its whereabouts between 1969 and 1980 is that Anthony Bamford (UK) apparently owned it at some point.
To confuse matters, in 1996 E A Singer in New York had a car described as a “1968 F2/Tasman” Ferrari. Amon had of course raced a car in the 1968 Tasman series, before his two-car attack in 1969. It is more likely however that the Singer car did not have any Tasman history.

[Allen Brown]

David

How interesting!

If Bardinon had Lawrence's car, that suggests Doug may have got his Tasman cars mixed up when he said in Dino that Bardinon had the 1966 car.

So that means the 1966 car is missing since 1967. Anybody out there have any sightings of it?

Allen

[Ray Bell]

Palmer would have no doubt had some assistance (or introductions) from David McKay in that quest, he being David's chosen replacement for Spencer Martin when there was a clash between the Catholic Spencer, Adventist Atkin and David resulting in the Bob Jane team taking on the Sydney driver.
Jim, however, had his monocular vision spoil that quest. I wonder if he would have run under Scuderia Veloce's banner had it happened?

[David McKinney]

Allen
I deliberately avoided jumping to that conclusion. Yes, it might be that Doug mixed the cars up but, although he is not immune from error, that doesn't seem to me the sort of mistake he might make. And Bardinon had so many Ferraris, he could easily have owned both.
Milan Fistonic
Is Ray Bell's message a cue for you to put in a phone-call to Hamilton?

[Allen Brown]

David

He's not the only person immune to error - I think I've made one. The 158 that I said was in private hands - in Setton's collection to be precise - is actually 158/0006 which is the car that was used to build the Tasman car. So that suggests that someone has converted the 246T/66 back to its 1964 specification. That would explain why I can't find it! It also lets Doug off the hook (and puts me on it).

The implication of that is that the first cars to go direct to collectors may have been the 1512s in 1965. Maybe the other 158 (0005) joined the earlier cars on the scrap heap.

Does anyone else have any sightings of the 158 before Setton had it?

Allen

[Milan Fistonic]

In the latest F1 Racing magazine Peter Windsor has an article on driving the Mason-Styrron Ferrari 246T (or 246/FL as he calls it). While he doesn’t say that it is the Amon car from 1969 he infers that it is. He, and Rob Wilson, wanted to drive “the winners of early and late Australian GPs during the ’63—69 era.” He later refers to the 246 as being almost exactly as it was when Chris won the AGP. The other car they drove at Goodwood was a 2.5-litre Brabham-Climax owned by John Coombs.
Whether the attempt to instil the idea that the Ferrari was the one driven by Amon rather than it being Bell’s car was just a bit of poetic licence to spice up the story or a serious bid to give the car a history that it does not have, I do not know, though I suspect the former.
He does not claim that the Brabham is the one used by Jack to win the 1963 AGP at Warwick Farm.
The 1963 AGP was held on a very hot day and Windsor claims that John Surtees stuffed his helmet with iced lettuce leaves before racing the Bowmaker Lola.

[Ray Bell]

I have among my emails on the other computer, currently not hooked up, a note from Rob Saward. He's something of a Brabham-Climax historian and could answer the Brabham question right away.
As for the Ferrari, I wouldn't hazard a guess, but I would have thought that Bell's car was Amon's from the previous year, but without any reason other than logic.
As for the lettuce leaves, it's possible Windsor might have known something like this. Although he was very young, maybe ten or so at the time, his father was in the 'inner sanctum' of the Warwick Farm pits and might have seen it happen.
Personally, I'd doubt it, but it might explain his mid-race spin.
Surtees could answer the question, of course.
As for Windsor driving either car, I'd say he'd have to have gained experience since I last nearly got run over by him in a Formula Vee.

[David McKinney]

The Mason-Styrron car is definitely ex-Bell mount from 1969.
At the time this was thought to be Amon’s 1968 car, but chassis numbers quoted for the 1969 cars (admittedly in retrospect) were too high in the sequence for a 1967 F2 car so I altered me records accordingly. Perhaps I shouldn't have.
The Coombs Brabham purports to be Brabham’s 1963 Australian mount, subsequently driven by Hulme in the 1964 Tasman series and then by Lex Davison. Trouble with that theory is - didn’t Wally Mitchell rebuild this car as the RM1 sportscar, and wasn’t it destroyed in a fatal fire in the 1960s?