77 replies to this topic

[Zhuk]

I thought it was pretty interesting to hear Webber's comments in the drivers briefing about the 'engine issues' Webber had late in the race, to me this looks very suspect and possibly could have been Red Bull creating a situation to turn down Webber's engine so that he wouldn't pose a threat to Vettel after the safety car lap. Does anyone else think this is a bit fishy?

[Longtimefan]

I wouldn't put it past them..

very disappointed in how they are handling this

[ImDDAA]

It will always look suspect if either has engine problems but it doesn't make it fact - last race Vettel DNF'd due to engine failure and they've had all sorts of problems this year, it's completely possible that they are nursing their tired engines.

[CDNgrl]

tin hats.

[byronbolscher]

Actually, at some point I thought I did see a little bit of smoke out of Webber's engine, it was when they where in traffic before the safety car, so I believe them really.

[Szoelloe]

it is not possible to turn the engine down from the pits.

[Jambo]

I think Webber realised that the engine problem was true, he certainly didn't look angry with the result, if it was fabricated you would have seen a more disgruntled, angrier Mark Webber.

[Massa]

Vettel told the BBC that he will do everything for a Red Bull driver became champion

[RME]

It will always look suspect if either has engine problems but it doesn't make it fact - last race Vettel DNF'd due to engine failure and they've had all sorts of problems this year, it's completely possible that they are nursing their tired engines.

Webbo has a fresher engine. Sebs engine is on its 3rd race.

[wingwalker]

I don't think there was a slightest chance Webber would overtake Vettel on track today, I think it was just RB making sure he is not going to blew his engine (and title chances) on track.

Horner has just pretty much said that drivers are going to swap places in Abu Dhabi if there will be a need to, no conspiracy here.

[krapmeister]

I think something was up - whether it was temps or fuel usage I don't know - but agree with Jambo that if there was nothing wrong Mark would've been well pissed off the in PC...

[Longtimefan]

Vettel told the BBC that he will do everything for a Red Bull driver became champion

Then why didn't he move over?

[midgrid]

it is not possible to turn the engine down from the pits.

Pits-to-car telemetry was banned for 2003.

[Skinnyguy]

Stop spreading bullshit. I have had enough conspiracies in spanish TV/forums.

[Zhuk]

What I mean is that they are telling Webber that he has engine problems so that he is forced to turn his engine down... not saying they did it by telemetry or anything.

[LH08WDC]

Then why didn't he move over?

I think he meant just in the last race if there was a scenario where he couldn't be the champion.

Edited by MP4-25, 07 November 2010 - 18:27.

[johnmhinds]

it is not possible to turn the engine down from the pits.

Don't let facts get in the way of a stupid conspiracy.....

[iotar]

Look at this from drivers point of view. You are closing on the car in front of you when you hear this message. It's either true or not what are you doing? Do you ignore it or not?

The fact that there are small chances of overtaking is irrelevant. Putting the pressure, closing on your rival is part of the racing. It may force them to do mistakes or put some strain on equipment (in Vettel's case the engine).

[sir jackie walker]

So Red Bull are using illegal 2-way telemetry to hinder Mark? On top of that he's heavier!

Poor Mark, it's almost as nasty as Michael sabotaging Kimi back in the Ferrari garage.

[flyer121]

Then why didn't he move over?

Because his chances are alive ..... presumably

[scheivlak]

Look at this from drivers point of view. You are closing on the car in front of you when you hear this message. It's either true or not what are you doing? Do you ignore it or not?

The fact that there are small chances of overtaking is irrelevant. Putting the pressure, closing on your rival is part of the racing. It may force them to do mistakes or put some strain on equipment (in Vettel's case the engine).

And what if the guys in the pit see that the engine is getting hot, and they don't tell the driver about it?

[WhiteBlue]

Webber was short of fuel despite the safety car, that's the engine issue he had. They were running his engine quite lean and he had to short shift and run it richer for some laps to make the finish. Some laps before the final Pilbeam came on the radio and told him that he had saved enough fuel and finish with normal shifting now.

[DILLIGAF]

Webber was short of fuel despite the safety car, that's the engine issue he had. They were running his engine quite lean and he had to short shift and run it richer for some laps to make the finish. Some laps before the final Pilbeam came on the radio and told him that he had saved enough fuel and finish with normal shifting now.

Source?

[Jim Warbic]

Webber just said on the BBC that he 'still does not know what was wrong with the engine'. 'He was told to short shift' so he did it.
DC asked the question.
I don't think anything was amiss, but with this team who knows?

[cardin]

it is not possible to turn the engine down from the pits.

Of course not but, the last time I checked, the pit can tell the driver to do it himself. I doubt any driver would not follow thru.
Not that I believe it was done to hinder Mark.

[Captain Tightpants]

Why on earth would Red Bull self-sabotage themselves like this?

[Sausage]

Of course not.

[simplyfast]

I don't think there was a slightest chance Webber would overtake Vettel on track today, I think it was just RB making sure he is not going to blew his engine (and title chances) on track.

Horner has just pretty much said that drivers are going to swap places in Abu Dhabi if there will be a need to, no conspiracy here.

saying and doing are two very different things as we have seen all season with red bulls**t

[WhiteBlue]

Source?

Team radio on Sky Germany had the radio call from Pilbeam to Webber that his fuel was now ok. It was pretty obvious then that they had short fueled him to help his early pace and speculating on a safety car which duly came.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 07 November 2010 - 18:57.

[simplyfast]

Why on earth would Red Bull self-sabotage themselves like this?

because they love vettel and dont love Webber or have you not followed this season.

[JosTheBoss]

I doubt it, but we couldnt be 100% sure given the history.

I cant see Ciaron Pilbeam complying.

[Captain Tightpants]

because they love vettel and dont love Webber or have you not followed this season.

If you listened to the press conference, Mark Webber implies that there's a power split in the team: Vettel has the support of the Powers That Be, but Webber is friends with most of the crew as he's known them since his Jaguar days. I can't imagine that Red Bull's love for Vettel would be so great that they would be willing to hand a World Championship to Alonso on a silver platter. They're not that stupid.

[ImDDAA]

Webbo has a fresher engine. Sebs engine is on its 3rd race.

Sure, I'm not answering the question with a yes or no, just saying it's quite likely they'll want to be careful with engines and whatever happens it will look suspect.

[2ms]

Why on earth would Red Bull self-sabotage themselves like this?

By not telling one of their drivers to break the rules and pull over for the other one?

Even if it wasn't crap to tell one of your drivers to pull over and hand win to the other, Red Bull would still be doing the opposite of sabotaging themselves. They are maximizing their overall chances of getting a WDC. Webber has crashed out of 10% of the races this season. He has also had "incidents" in ~25% of them. Red Bull would be stupid to put all their eggs in one car. By putting both of their drivers within very realistic chances of WDC, they have increased their odds of winning the WDC. It's very simple. For example, if Webber tangles with Alonso, Red Bull is likely still WDC as long as Alonso is only able to recover to ~5th. Otherwise, Alonso automatically wins.

Edited by 2ms, 07 November 2010 - 19:10.

[Captain Tightpants]

By not telling one of their drivers to break the rules and pull over for the other one?

Even if it wasn't crap to tell one of your drivers to pull over and hand win to the other, Red Bull would still be doing the opposite of sabotaging themselves. They are maximizing their overall chances of getting a WDC. Webber has crashed out of 10% of the races this season. He has also had "incidents" in ~25% of them. Red Bull would be stupid to put all their eggs in one car. By putting both of their drivers within very realistic chances of WDC, they have increased their odds of winning the WDC. It's very simple. For example, if Webber tangles with Alonso, Red Bull is likely still WDC as long as Alonso is only able to recover to ~5th. Otherwise, Alonso automatically wins.

Your theory is somewhat let down by the fact that Webber wasn't catching Vettel fast enough to pass him in the first place. If it weren't for the traffic and/or the safety car, Webber was in with a chance of getting Vettel.

[Risil]

Actually, at some point I thought I did see a little bit of smoke out of Webber's engine, it was when they where in traffic before the safety car, so I believe them really.

Thank you, I thought I saw that too. Good to know I haven't altogether lost it. Certainly after that I was watching the race wondering if/when Webber's engine would expire.

[One]

Red Bull is showing that their structure is making problem: in terms of coordinating this public reception, internal politics and what they say who they are about. They are terribly incomprehensible.

[DarthWillie]

because they love vettel and dont love Webber or have you not followed this season.

followed this season haven't seen that.

[Infinityl]

Stop spreading bullshit. I have had enough conspiracies in spanish TV/forums.

And thats why you register here?

[primer]

Did Red Bull turn down Webber's engine to make sure Vettel won?

Of course they did. Evil racing team that they are, Red Bull have been sabotaging Webber from the first race itself. However like all evil villains RBR badly misunderestimated the true power of Webber's AussieGrit™. As a result -inspite of all the sabotage from RBR- he is currently P2 in the WDC table.

Go Webber. Just go away. Kimi fans, all is forgiven.

[Gilles12]

Actually, at some point I thought I did see a little bit of smoke out of Webber's engine, it was when they where in traffic before the safety car, so I believe them really.

That was dust from going offline

Even Brundle commented so

Believe me, I was hoping for more

[Dunder]

No.

Apologies for the one word answer but I don't think question in the thread is worthy or more.

[WhiteBlue]

Webbo has a fresher engine. Sebs engine is on its 3rd race.

Not true! Webber will be on #8 with something like 900 km on the clock. Vettel will also be on #8 with only 500 km on the clock. He used that engine for the first time in Japan. In Korea he used #6 which ran Germany, Hungary and Korea. In Brazil he used #7 which ran Monza, Singapore and Brazil.

[Paul Prost]

You wonder if Red Bull didn't implement team orders already (i.e. told Mark to hold position). The PR line that "I had a hot engine" may be an explanation for "I was told to hold station so I turned down the revs to save the engine for Abu Dhabi".

[Madras]

You wonder if Red Bull didn't implement team orders already (i.e. told Mark to hold position). The PR line that "I had a hot engine" may be an explanation for "I was told to hold station so I turned down the revs to save the engine for Abu Dhabi".

He wont be using the same engine in Abu Dabi will he?

[Paul Prost]

I don't know. His Korea engine was fresh as it had only done practise/qualifying laps on Saturday and two race laps.

[WhiteBlue]

You wonder if Red Bull didn't implement team orders already (i.e. told Mark to hold position). The PR line that "I had a hot engine" may be an explanation for "I was told to hold station so I turned down the revs to save the engine for Abu Dhabi".

Groundless speculation. Webber was short fueled for the race. That's why his engine ran hot due to running too lean. http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4697009

He wont be using the same engine in Abu Dabi will he?

Most likely he will. He got only some 900 kms or 1.5 races on that engine #8. It must be his best.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 07 November 2010 - 23:15.

[tohru222]

Mark you have a problem with the engine. Did you understand the message?

[Minicoop831]

it is not possible to turn the engine down from the pits.

Its doesn't matter they told him the engine was hot hence turn it down lol, what are you going to to run it at full power when the tam tells you its hot? use your common sense

Edited by Minicoop831, 07 November 2010 - 23:31.

[JosTheBoss]

Most likely he will. He got only some 900 kms or 1.5 races on that engine #8. It must be his best.

900kms? He's done P3 and 17 or so race laps (15 of them at low revs) in Korea, plus P3 and the entire race in Brazil. He wouldnt have run his race engine in P1 or P2 at Brazil.

That aint 900kms.