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Then & now - juxtaposed photos


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#1 Wirra

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 05:27

With the Tasman Revival just about upon us again I was going through some old photos with the idea of replicating them. I thought the concept might make an interesting thread in general. They need not be your own photos just so long as you are entitled to post them.

Here is an example from the 1968 Tasman and 2008 Tasman Revival - BRM P126.

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Edited by Wirra, 14 November 2010 - 06:20.


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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 08:01

Great idea, Wirra :up:

A lot of detail differences to be spotted in that one example, but of course most are of the sort you might have seen between two P126s in the day

#3 eldougo

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 09:27

P.H. What day are you going out there sat or sun.

#4 Wirra

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 10:08

Friday and Sunday.

Tasman 1969 and Tasman Revival 2008 - Ferrari 246T
Chassis 0008 used by Chris Amon in 1969
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Chassis 0004 used by Chris Amon in 1968
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Edited by Wirra, 14 November 2010 - 20:24.


#5 Wirra

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 10:35

Not only cars.

Derek Bell - Warwick Farm (Sydney) 1969 and Manly (Sydney) 2010

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#6 David Shaw

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 10:45

He's held up very well over the ensuing 40 odd years. :up:
Nice idea of the juxtaposed photos too.

#7 Wirra

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 12:06

He's held up very well over the ensuing 40 odd years...

Not only in appearance - While I have gone from a spotty lad to a grumpy old bugger, Mr Bell was extremely obliging and convivial on both occasions.

David - your avatar is one of the cars I am eyeing off for this thread.

#8 opplock

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 17:39

I may be getting pedantic but the Tasman Ferraris were designated 246T. The car in the 2008 photo is in 1968 spec i.e. no wings. Do you know which chassis this was? Amon used 0006 in 1968. In 69 he used 0008 and Derek Bell used 0010.

#9 RStock

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 17:47

I may be getting pedantic but the Tasman Ferraris were designated 246T. The car in the 2008 photo is in 1968 spec i.e. no wings. Do you know which chassis this was? Amon used 0006 in 1968. In 69 he used 0008 and Derek Bell used 0010.


It looks like a 166 Dino F2 car. Didn't Amon use one the first year they went down under?

Edit: I think Amon did, only it was redesignated the 246T, but virtually identical to the Dino 166.

There is a photo here of Amon in the car.

http://www.tasman-se...und1/round1.asp

Edited by REDARMYSOJA, 14 November 2010 - 17:53.


#10 opplock

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 19:39

The cars were designated 246T because the F2 engines were replaced with 2.4 litre version of the V6. I spent about 30 minutes standing next to Amon's car in the pits at Levin on race morning while his mechanic warmed it up and played with the carbs. I was 11 at the time and couldn't hear a thing for about an hour afterwards. Unimaginable in today's H&S obsessed world.

#11 Wirra

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 20:39

I may be getting pedantic but the Tasman Ferraris were designated 246T. The car in the 2008 photo is in 1968 spec i.e. no wings. Do you know which chassis this was? Amon used 0006 in 1968. In 69 he used 0008 and Derek Bell used 0010.

I don't want to get pedantic but according to the present owner the 2008 Tasman Revival car is chassis 0004 used by Amon in 1968. The '256' was a typo and has been corrected.

My intention for this thread was to merely replicate images not specific cars and not to get into 'grandfather's axe' debates. I neither own nor wear an anorak!

Edited by Wirra, 14 November 2010 - 21:21.


#12 elansprint72

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 21:25

My intention for this thread was to merely replicate images not specific cars and not to get into 'grandfather's axe' debates. I neither own nor wear an anorak!



And what a great idea it is; thanks for posting. :clap:

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 21:56

I don't want to get pedantic but according to the present owner the 2008 Tasman Revival car is chassis 0004 used by Amon in 1968

He's right :up:


#14 David Shaw

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 22:39

David - your avatar is one of the cars I am eyeing off for this thread.


It looked most striking in its mainly red livery IMHO, rather than the usual Brabham green.


#15 David Lawson

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 23:01

Although the lines being taken into the corner are different and I'm using a different focal length lens, I was standing in exactly the same position at Druids when I took the picture of the Matra at the BA 1000km in 1974 and this summer's Masters Festival at Brands Hatch.

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David

#16 elansprint72

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 00:25

.......... I was standing in exactly the same position at Druids when I took the picture of the Matra at the BA 1000km in 1974 and this summer's Masters Festival at Brands Hatch.........
David


Nah. Check the meaning of the word. Forget the subject, look at the backgrounds.

Both super photos, however. :cool:

Edited by elansprint72, 15 November 2010 - 00:26.


#17 David McKinney

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:58

I can believe the photographer's in the same position, but pointing the camera at a slightly different angle :)

#18 Allan Lupton

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:58

I can believe the photographer's in the same position, but pointing the camera at a slightly different angle :)

and with a different focal length lens.

#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:09

... and also remembering that Paddock Hill bend was moved/reprofiled a couple of years after the first photo was taken.

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#20 D-Type

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 18:20

and with a different focal length lens.

Focal length is irrelevant. For a given position of photographer and subject, for a given image size, the perspective will be identical. In other words, if you use a wide angle lens and enlarge it you'll get the same picture as you would with a telephoto admittedly admittedly with more grain or fewer pixels.
The "foreshortening of perspective" you get with a long focus lens is where you take one picture of the cars far away with a telephoto and another when they're close up and you "fill the viewfinder" in both cases.

#21 David Lawson

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:45

Oh for ***** sake, I make a simple comment about two pictures I took 36 years apart from the same spot at Druids and this stuff gets written. I hope it is with tongue in cheek or else we're all in trouble.

I was standing at the same spot by which I mean I was looking down the same line of the straight approaching the corner. The run off area and the bank at Druids has been moved back about 25 yards since 1974. Although Paddock Bend was tightened the line of the track up the straight to Druids remains unchanged. The 1974 picture shows the car turning in much later than the 2010 picture where the car is aiming at a very early apex and is further away from Druids which means I was pointing the camera at quite different areas of the approach to Druids.

Can we just enjoy the then and now photographs without analysing every word...

David

#22 CoulthardD

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:36

This thread had such potential... :rolleyes:

DC

#23 RStock

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 22:34

Oh for ***** sake, I make a simple comment about two pictures I took 36 years apart from the same spot at Druids and this stuff gets written. I hope it is with tongue in cheek or else we're all in trouble.

I was standing at the same spot by which I mean I was looking down the same line of the straight approaching the corner. The run off area and the bank at Druids has been moved back about 25 yards since 1974. Although Paddock Bend was tightened the line of the track up the straight to Druids remains unchanged. The 1974 picture shows the car turning in much later than the 2010 picture where the car is aiming at a very early apex and is further away from Druids which means I was pointing the camera at quite different areas of the approach to Druids.

Can we just enjoy the then and now photographs without analysing every word...

David


Hear, hear! This forum seems to becoming one big "Bloodpressure" thread. Parsing hairs by arguing whether someone was standing two feet one way or another is jusy silly.

Ignore the other stuff and post your photos David. I was so looking forward to them.

#24 elansprint72

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 22:51

EDIT:
Wirra has asked if I could match the cars- this is the best I can do at the moment; one Mk1 Escort in each photo plus AN Other. I hope this pair now passes the McKinney criteria test  ;) .

I make no claim to be standing in exactly the same spot, however some of the spectators may be. :rolleyes:

Knicker Brook 1974
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Knicker Brook 2010
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Edited by elansprint72, 19 November 2010 - 13:53.


#25 jj2728

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 02:26

Oh for ***** sake, I make a simple comment about two pictures I took 36 years apart from the same spot at Druids and this stuff gets written. I hope it is with tongue in cheek or else we're all in trouble.

I was standing at the same spot by which I mean I was looking down the same line of the straight approaching the corner. The run off area and the bank at Druids has been moved back about 25 yards since 1974. Although Paddock Bend was tightened the line of the track up the straight to Druids remains unchanged. The 1974 picture shows the car turning in much later than the 2010 picture where the car is aiming at a very early apex and is further away from Druids which means I was pointing the camera at quite different areas of the approach to Druids.

Can we just enjoy the then and now photographs without analysing every word...

David


Hear hear David....post more......lens and perspectives be damned.................

#26 David McKinney

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:15

I would have though the idea was supposed to be to show the same or similar cars then and now

We've all got loads of photos of different cars taken from the same spot over the years

#27 elansprint72

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 16:23

I would have though the idea was supposed to be to show the same or similar cars then and now

We've all got loads of photos of different cars taken from the same spot over the years


QUOTE (Wirra @ Nov 14 2010, 20:39) *
My intention for this thread was to merely replicate images not specific cars and not to get into 'grandfather's axe' debates. I neither own nor wear an anorak!

Please carry on without me chaps. :)


#28 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:37

Although the lines being taken into the corner are different and I'm using a different focal length lens, I was standing in exactly the same position at Druids when I took the picture of the Matra at the BA 1000km in 1974 and this summer's Masters Festival at Brands Hatch.

David


David, I sympathise with you over the literalist tendency here. But I must confess the reference to the BA 1,000Kms really threw me completely. To me that's the Buenos Aires 1,000Kms... But now I see what you meant.

DCN

#29 David Lawson

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 23:12

But I must confess the reference to the BA 1,000Kms really threw me completely. To me that's the Buenos Aires 1,000Kms... But now I see what you meant.


I didn't think that the BA 1000km at Brands Hatch would be confused with Buenos Aires, but I see what you mean.

Another offering.

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The paddock at Silverstone during the 1971 British Grand Prix.

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Thirty four years later and the same Tyrrell transporter in the Silverstone paddock at the 2005 Silverstone Classic.

David

#30 Giraffe

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 16:09

We've all got loads of photos of different cars taken from the same spot over the years


And there's me thinking all along that you didn't own a camera, David! :blush:

#31 Giraffe

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 16:28

Previously posted in Bev Bond's eponymous thread but IMHO also appropriate for posting here, Bev Bond in F3 GLTL Lotus 59 in the Oulton Park assembly area in 1970 & 2010. Same bloke to the left of the car in both pics, but the assembly area has been moved to the other end of the pits in the intervening period.

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By giraffe138 at 2010-09-01
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By giraffe138 at 2010-09-01

#32 David Lawson

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 19:23

Not identical cars but they are occupying almost the same piece of track at Brands Hatch.

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Frank Gardner in a Lola 330 practising for the 1972 John Player Challenge Trophy. He withdrew from the race although I can't remember the reason for this.

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I'm no expert on Lolas but I think this is a 332 at the 2009 HSCC Superprix.

David

#33 elansprint72

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 20:16

Not identical cars but they are occupying almost the same piece of track at Brands Hatch.

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Frank Gardner in a Lola 330 practising for the 1972 John Player Challenge Trophy. He withdrew from the race although I can't remember the reason for this.

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I'm no expert on Lolas but I think this is a 332 at the 2009 HSCC Superprix.

David


David,
Two things are noticeable- firstly in the "old days, even with the emerging full-face helmets, one could usually still see the drivers eyes and secondly, the modern tyres for these old cars are much more "square-shouldered". Another superb pair, as were Giraffe's paddock shots. Let's see some more, folks. :)

Thanks again to Wirra for starting this off, it could become one of those "epic" TNF threads. I'm already planning to go out next season with prints of old photos and try to shoot a modern view of the scene.

#34 David Lawson

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 12:31

The Lotus 76 at the Silverstone International Trophy in 1974

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Ronnie Peterson leading in the early laps of the race.

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Twenty odd laps into the race, I've run out of colour slides and have reloaded with budget B&W film as I was an impoversished civil servant at the time.
Hunt is now pressurising Peterson whose rear tyre is starting to blister.

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Peterson's Cosworth expires about lap 30.

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The same Lotus 76 at the 2006 Silverstone Classic

All photos in 1974 and 2006 taken at Becketts.

David

#35 Wirra

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 05:56

Lotus 49 R8 Warwick Farm - Tasman series 1969 - Graham Hill

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Lotus 49 R8 Eastern Creek - Tasman Revival 2010 - John Smith

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Thanks to the Dawson-Damer crew.

Edited by Wirra, 17 December 2010 - 09:42.


#36 Wirra

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:27

Alec Mildren in his Cooper Climax during his first visit to Port Wakefield.
This photo was taken at the Gold Star meeting in October '59

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Alex Mildren in the T45 (?) Mildren Cooper (1959) and Dick Willis in the T51 Mildren Cooper (2010)

#37 arttidesco

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 21:03

David,
secondly, the modern tyres for these old cars are much more "square-shouldered". Another superb pair, as were Giraffe's paddock shots. Let's see some more, folks. :)

Thanks again to Wirra for starting this off, it could become one of those "epic" TNF threads. I'm already planning to go out next season with prints of old photos and try to shoot a modern view of the scene.


IIRC when Michelin brought radial tyre construction to F1 in 1977 (?) their tyres were noticeably square shouldered compared to the Goodyear cross plies, I wonder if the modern tyres are square shouldered because they are also now of radial construction ?

#38 LittleChris

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 21:44

The Lotus 76 at the Silverstone International Trophy in 1974

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Ronnie Peterson leading in the early laps of the race.

Posted Image
Twenty odd laps into the race, I've run out of colour slides and have reloaded with budget B&W film as I was an impoversished civil servant at the time.
Hunt is now pressurising Peterson whose rear tyre is starting to blister.

Posted Image
Peterson's Cosworth expires about lap 30.

Posted Image
The same Lotus 76 at the 2006 Silverstone Classic

All photos in 1974 and 2006 taken at Becketts.

David


Slightly different version of Becketts though David . When I was last there a couple of years ago, the real Becketts inside kerbing was still visible behind the grandstand as was the kerbing for the club circuit.

The second photo of Ronnie is magic !!

Chris


#39 David Lawson

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 23:32

I know that Becketts is a series of corners which is why I didn't say the same corner, I didn't want a repeat of the discussion about Druids.....

Sadly that piece of original kerbing that used to be in the public area has now gone.

David

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#40 elansprint72

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 23:54

Wirra,
That's a seriously great comparison; different fuel tank (judging by the angle of the filler), different perspex, different exhaust system, different mirror, different steering wheel, forget the tyres..... hey, it's the same car though. :rolleyes:

This thread, imho, could prove to be an eye-opener, if we all look at the details. Thanks so much for kicking us off on this subject, I hope it runs for a while because there is so much potential here.

Go up into the attic, get out those shoe-boxes full of Instamatic snaps, this is the place to overturn accepted "history", folks!

David, clearly there was something dreadfully wrong with your camera technique, you appear to be showing F1 cars with some opposite lock applied! Unthinkable. :smoking: More please.


#41 Wirra

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 09:54

...hey, it's the same car though...

Not quite. According to Dick, Alex owned 4 Coopers [I'm guessing a Bristol, T45, T51 & (?)]. In the photos Alex is in the T45 and Dick in the T51, hence the differences.

#42 David McKinney

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:31

Not quite. According to Dick, Alex owned 4 Coopers [I'm guessing a Bristol, T45, T51 & (?)]. In the photos Alex is in the T45 and Dick in the T51, hence the differences.

Mildren Coopers were
1) T20 (Bristol)
2) T41 (Climax FWB)
3) T43 (Climax FPF)
4) T45 (Climax FPF)
5) T51 (Maserati)
No.5 is still in the UK, AFAIK

#43 Dick Willis

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 05:02

Add No 6, my car which was a spare car which hardly needed to be used during the Cooper Maserati campaign in 1960, see advert in AMS 12/60, for sale advert on back page. It was subsequently bought and raced by Ron Marshall.

#44 john medley

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:46

I dont want to take this terrific thread off topic nor do I wish to tangle with the likes of David McK and Dick W about Coopers, but help! Are we absolutely certain that Alec Mildren had TWO Coopers in 1960? Could he have had THREE? Are we SURE that the Ross Dalton car was the 1960 AGP winning T51 Cooper Maserati?

#45 David McKinney

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 07:35

I believe there were three Mildren Coopers in 1960

•His earlier T45, raced at the beginning of the year before passing to John Roxburgh later in 1960, thence Peter Boyd-Squires and others, and in England these past 20 years

•The famed AGP and Gold Star-winning Maserati-powered T51 which I believe did go to Dalton then back to Mildren for parts to go into the Mildren-Maserati sportscar (Paul Moxham used some of the bits to build a T51 Cooper-Maserati which he sold it to Peter Giddings in 1990, and which is now in Europe)

•Mildren also had a 2-litre T51-Climax in 1960, possibly built up locally. Later raced by Ron Marshall with 1500 engine and with Dick Willis since, I believe, August 1983



#46 Wirra

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:09

A couple of photos from the Dec '56 Albert Park AGP meeting -

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Stan Jones's Maserati 250F...

Peter Giddings - Tasman Revival 2010

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I believe both cars competed in the 1956 Australian Grand Prix - #8 (2520) driven by Stan Jones and Mr Giddings's car (then #?) (2523) driven by the victor, a certain Mr S Moss.

Edited by Wirra, 30 November 2010 - 08:29.


#47 Nordic

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 11:56

A couple of Porsche.

Clearly either from the exact same location, but within 100 yards I would guess

Le mans 1980 Ford Chicane 908/80
http://rupert8766.fo.../p19061166.html

Le mans 2008
http://rupert8766.fo.../p51958513.html

Le Mans 1981 Up the start straight 934
http://rupert8766.fo...t/p2767311.html

Le Mans 2008
http://rupert8766.fo.../p51958539.html

#48 Igor_E

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 17:02

Hi folks

Here are my favs: La Source corner at Spa: tackled by Jacky Ickx in 1968, Niki Lauda in 1984, Keke Rosberg in 1986 and Kimi Räikkönen in 2008:

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Spectators are moved further and further from track.

Regards
Igor

#49 ratkinso

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 19:15

The Esses, Shelsley - Then June 1934:

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Now - well 1998 (don't know the month) - probably neither of these is the same car, but one is white with pointed tail and a two-seater, and t'other has twin rears with pointed tail:

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Cheers,

Richard

#50 Wirra

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:13

Elfin ME5

Warwick Farm 1970 (?)
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Eastern Creek 2010 - Image courtesy of TNF'er 'brucemoxon'
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Edited by Wirra, 17 December 2010 - 21:43.