31 replies to this topic

[Don Capps]

After being duly informed of the Official Count by Our Noble and Esteemed Official Teller, the following are to become Members of the Atlas F1 Nostalgia Forum Pantheon of Racers at a suitable induction ceremony in the near future (in alphabetical order):

Chris Amon
Stefan Bellof
Rudolf Caracciola
Masten Gregory
Jacky Ickx
Sir Stirling Moss
Tazio Nuvolari
Ronnie Peterson
Bernd Rosemeyer
Gilles Villeneuve

I would like to request that there be a short paragraph for each Racer to go along with his induction into the Pantheon. Please put yor contributions in this thread and I will pick the ones I like the best.

My thanks to all of you for participating and I am looking forward to next year's nominations.

See you!

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Keir]

Chris Amon

Lucky? Not by a long shot!!
Talented? Well, you had to be there at Oulton Park in '68 where the Ferrari was held,lap after lap, in the most exquisite of power slides. Maybe you were there to hear the wail of the Matra as Chris pushed it and himself to the very limits at Le Charade in '72. But the real deal came at the Belgian Grand Prix in 1970. The Masta Kink taken flat out in a March 701. Even Pedro looked in his mirrors that day!!!
Amon, always a racer. SEMPER AMON

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Keir]

Stefan Bellof

Just like a shooting star, you can't help but watch. In the rain at Monaco, you thought, "Who is that guy?" "Isn't that a Tyrrell?" A brief moment in an all too short career. What I will remember most about Stefan was his total commitment and the fact that he enjoyed his racing. And so did we all.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Racer.Demon]

Leif and I would like to point to this URL for a whole bunch of fully apt paragraphs:

http://www.racer.dem...w/poll1res.html

Cheers,
R.D

[Joe Fan]

Don, do you want a bio? Count me in for doing one on the great Masten Gregory. Is there a word limit that you want me to stay under?

[SteveB2]

I went through RD's link to the 8w list of all-century drivers. The write-up on Bellof is especially good there.

Their list makes no provisions as to whether a driver was champion or not. I think this is what Jhope was wanting Atlas to turn their hall of fame into.

Just for a comparison exercise I applied Don's rules for qualification to the 8W list. (i.e., no WC's, 15 year limit) and came up with what their list would be:

1. Nuvolari
2. Moss
3. Carraciola
4. Villeneuve
5. Rosemeyer
6. Peterson
7. Varzi
8. Wimille
9. Nazzaro
10. Chiron
11. Bellof
12. Baillot
13. Ickx
14. Antonio Ascari
15. Farina
16. Sommer

8W listed something like 46 drivers that would correspond to our pool. Amazingly, Masten and Chris didn't make that list. Although the lead-in on top, it mentioned that the list seemed to be weighted on accomplishments rather than promise.

Diferences in the top 10:

In Atlas/Not in 8W:
Amon
Bellof
Gregory
Ickx

In 8W/Not in Atlas:
Varzi
Wimille
Nazzaro
Chiron

BTW, Racer Demon, on the section of WC's that didn't make the top 35, I think Denny Hulme and James Hunt were left off.

[Joe Fan]

SteveB2, the real problem is that there are no shortage of great deserving drivers to chose from especially when you are dealing with 100+ years worth of drivers. I wish Don would allow us to pick 10 more next year instead of just five. I am already torn over who I should nominate next year if we are restricted to just five. One thing that I find difficult to deal with is the lack of credit early American road and board track racers like Jimmy Murphy receive. Back in the early days, Grand Prix racing was more European than today's F1. Europe and the U.S. are real close population and size-wise so even though the U.S. is one country, there should be "theoretically" just as many greats in the U.S. as in Europe. Certainly, for every Caracciola, Nuvolari and Rosemeyer there should be one early American driver worthy for inclusion. I felt that driver was Jimmy Murphy. Maybe Americans were not great in terms of road racing but the Pantheon rules do not state that nominees have to be open wheel Grand Prix road racing drivers. There were European drivers who would compete in the Indy 500 like Jules Goux and Americans Indy Car drivers who raced in European Grand Prix like Jimmy Murphy and Tommy Milton. All of these drivers faired well competing in different forms of discipline.

And then Ray Bell has a point about early Australian drivers. If the opportunities for them weren't there to compete in European Grand Prix races, how do we know that they weren't great drivers too?

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

Fortunately, we do for some... we did have Lobethal.

And, to a lesser degree, in the sixties we had Warwick Farm and the Tasman Cup series.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 05-18-2000).]

[SteveB2]

Joe,

I think I was just trying to point out the differences in outlook between the two voter pools.
8W's list was weighted more on accomplishments (wins). So... Amon and Gregory were left off. Bellof (the only winless driver on their list as far as i can tell) was placed 27th on their list. I'm assuming that Bellof was given the nod over Amon and MG because their list was weighted somewhat toward the more recent drivers. I assume this because Senna was at the top of the list. I'm not sure (I could be wrong) that if the nostalgia forum voted with similar rules that Senna would be on top. Near the top but I'm thinking Clark or Nuvolari would win out given the nostagic bent of this forum. (My argument here may not have any weight at all given their listing also of drivers of first quarter of the century)(I also can't explain why the 8W list which should be weighted nostalgically seems to have this weighting toward the end of the century.) Alesi was 35th!!! Mansell was 17th!!!

This forum's list also seems to place a lot more weight on careers outside F1, hence the inclusion of MG, CA, and Ickx.

I was also wondering if the size of our voting pool may have skewed our results. The response wasn't quite what I was expecting.

I don't know... just rambling by now.

[Leif Snellman]

"The write-up on Bellof is especially good there."

Thanks Steve. It was written in an inspired mood.

By the way, in case anyone is interested, the points score for the
8Ws list was the following:

Senna 417.5
Clark 392.5
Fangio 392.5
Nuvolari 388
Prost 377
Stewart 313
Moss 311
Ascari 276.5
Caracciola 273.5
Lauda 254.5


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Leif Snellman
The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing

[This message has been edited by Leif Snellman (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Don Capps]

Each inductee gets a paragraph, Joe. What that means is in the Gordon Murray/ Colin Chapman department. Also, next year will also be for ten (10) drivers. Makes sense to me. It is difficult enough with doing 10 to get recognition to those deserving the title of "Racer."



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Joe Fan]

Great Don, with 10 nominations next year I don't have as many tough choices.

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"Frankly, if I couldn't go motor racing I'd have to do something else involving hazard because it is the moment of risk that makes the rest of life bearable, valuable or delightful."--Masten Gregory

[Falcadore]

Don, what about the original 27 inductees? Have paragraphs been written for them?
yours
Mark Jones
"I saw a newspaper report the other day that said Bob Morris was in a Quandary. How do you homolgate a Quandary?" Ian Geoghegan

[Joe Fan]

Masten Gregory

Throw away the record books and ignore the statistics when analyzing Masten's career. Sports car legend Carroll Shelby said that Masten was "the fastest American that ever went over to drive a Grand Prix car." Two time WDC Jim Clark considered him to be his hero. With high praise from legends like these who really needs the record books and stats? Well, it should be noted that Masten was a true motorsport pioneer since he was the first American-born driver to compete in Formula One on a full-time basis. He was also a pioneer as he was one of the very few bespectacled drivers which was rare at that time. Masten started off impressively in F1 by becoming the first American to score a podium finish, in his very first Grand Prix start and at the prestigeous Monaco circuit no less. He finished 6th in the World Championship point standings his rookie campaign in 1957, competing in only half of the races and up against the factory teams of Ferrari, Maserati, Vanwall, Cooper and BRM. As a third driver for Cooper in 1959, he scored his best Formula One finish ever at the Portuguese Grand Prix finishing second behind Stirling Moss. Unfortunately, his contract was not renewed by Cooper for the 1960 season and then Masten spent the next six seasons driving unreliable and uncompetitive machinery before his F1 career came to an end in 1965. He then concentrated on his sports car career where he won the Le Mans in 1965 co-driving with Jochen Rindt in a NART Ferrari 275 LM. To date, this represents the last time a Ferrari has ever won Le Mans.



[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 06-09-2000]

[Racer.Demon]

SteveB2: an interesting comparison between the 8W 'all-time' vote and the Nostalgia Forum's 'racer' poll. Still, there are several differences in approach between the two, which I would like to point out to you.

As you noted, the 8W poll was an all-time vote, irrespective of titles or wins. The Nostalgia poll cuts it down to 'racers', whatever these may be, although many of us seem to have a pretty good idea (and remarkably similar in terms of outcome).

The 8W game centers around the F1 World Championship, so it was always expected the vote would hinge towards drivers from the period, and from Grand Prix racing. We gave our voters free reign, so we never expected it to bear any objectivity. And we also expected Senna to win because of the more contemporary and F1 focus of the game. Also apparent was that our voters decided to go for accomplishment rather than promise.

We did include some 50 nominees, that in our view would all be worthy of being included in the Top 25. For this, we tried to create a balance between talent, accomplishment, singular outstanding performances, and period. That's a bit different from the two criteria for our "Racer" Pantheon, which are sheer talent and fighting spirit.

This is how we proposed our voters to make their judgement:

"A few points of consideration in advance: to the 8W Team greatness is defined by what a driver is able to do with the machinery available to him, taking into account the level of opposition and discounting mechanical failures. To us, that means you should restrict yourself to drivers who gained a reputation by excelling in F1 World Championship events, Grandes Épreuves or any contemporary equivalent of the major league of motor racing (for the earliest days this would mean the City-to-City events and Gordon Bennett races) and have shown they can bring home the bacon. Within this measure we ask you to look at speed, determination, technical ability, race record and historical significance. Using the said definition you can also weigh up the qualities of the pioneer racers, pre-war heroes and F1 greats more easily."

To our disappointment, many of the pre-30s racers we nominated were overlooked by our voters, although Nazzaro got in 25th. But then this Forum also failed to acknowledge Lancia or Boillot, while these would go well in any Hall of Fame of 'racers'.

BTW, Hulme and Hunt did not belong to our original 'list-of-50' (which was comprised out of four individual lists of 50), so they are not included on the results page. Bellof was one our personal favourites, so we nominated him! But there was no need for our voters to strictly adhere to our nominations, which was underlined by the fact we received several votes for AJ Foyt...

Up until Jean Alesi - indeed in a surprising 35th - the 8W list is accurate as far as the votes go. Below that, we decided to give it a rest.

Cheers,
R.D

[SteveB2]

R.D.

Thanks a lot for the explanation.

Since the 8W voters didn't have the opportunity to vote for Masten or Chris (which, Joe and Keir, I'm sure they would have in large numbers ) the correpsondence (?) bewteen the two polls would go down to the top eight. Six of eight matched between the two polls. Not too bad. (I guess I could find out what the 11 and 12 places finishers in the Atlas poll are to see how they compare to 8W's; too lazy; plus I don't think it will help, maybe we'd have Chiron, but definitely not Nazarro; I think I only saw one vote for him)

Thanks again,
S.

[This message has been edited by SteveB2 (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Huw Jenjin]

villeneuve........A wild ride, a question of when not if..

Peterson... car tamer, not car trainer

Amon...... where did I put those notes?....

Ickx... Super sensetive, at one with a good car

[Roger Clark]

Joe Fan,

a correction to your appreciation of Masten Gregory. He did finish second in the 1959 Portugese Grand Prix, he he was a lap behind Moss, not six seconds. This was one of Moss' Golden Days, when he was so far ahead of everybody else it was almost embarassing.

[Joe Fan]

Roger, the information I have is correct. I have seen the erroneous information which suggests that he was a lap down. I got my information from "Grand Prix" by Trevor R. Griffiths. Moss finished first with a time of 2H 11m 55.1s followed by Gregory with a time of 2h 12m 01.6s. Therefore,

2 Hours 11 minutes 55.1 seconds plus 6.5 seconds equals 2 Hours 12 minutes and 1.6 seconds (Masten's time).

Forix even shows the same aggregate time but erroneously shows him a lap down too which isn't possible when you a 6.5 seconds behind. I have found Masten erroneously shown a lap down in two books (ones which didn't show aggregate times).

[Ray Bell]

A valid question, however, is "is the number of completed laps shown?"
I'm aware that usually the time is not shown for someone who has not completed the full race distance, but that is not universal. Are there contemporary reports which comment on the winning margin? Where was Jenks that day?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Joe Fan]

Ray, in my book "Grand Prix"--The complete Guide by Trevor R. Griffiths, it shows the results for the 1959 Portuguese Grand Prix like this:

Place/Driver/Car........Laps....Time....
1 Moss.....Cooper-Climax..62..2h 11m 55.1s..
2 Gregory.Cooper-Climax..62..2h 12m 01.6s..
3 Gurney......Ferrari.........61...........
4 Trintignant.Coop-Clim....60.............
5 Schell.....BRM..............59...........
6 Salvadori..Ast.Martin.....59............
Etc.

This is a Third Edition book so I feel more confident using this information than first edition books which don't show an aggregate time.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Roger Clark]

Motor Sport October 1959 gives Gregory 1 lap down. The text (DSJ)refers to Moss lapping Gregory on lap 58 of 62 which would be consisitent with a 1 lap + 6 seconds difference. "Moss lapped the second man, Gregory, and that was that, he had dominated the entire field without straining himself or his car.

In practice, Moss was 2 seconds faster than Brabham (2nd) and 4 secs faster than Gregory who completed the front row.

[Joe Fan]

Roger, until I can find absolute official race information, I am using what I have. I believe that Trevor R. Griffiths would have done the necessary work to get "official" times. The only problem I have with the Motorsport magazine article is that it does not indicate official aggregate times and many things could have happened. Moss could have came in for service between lap 59 and 61 if he had a big lead. Perhaps Masten came out ahead of Moss briefly after pitstops and Moss then regained the lead on lap 58. Since the fastest lap during the race was 2 minutes and 5 seconds and since Moss finished the race in 2 Hours, 11 minutes and 55.1 seconds, Masten's aggregate race time would have to be at least: 2 Hours 14 minutes plus. That is way off from the 2 Hours, 12 minutes and 1.6 seconds that is listed as Masten's official race time. Somewhere, somebody has made a big mistake.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

Not so, Joe.... Jenks would only have said "lapped" if Moss put him a lap down, and the context shows that kind of dominance being explained. Moreover, had Moss pitted, one would have expected Jenks to record it - say, along the lines of: "with a lap up his sleeve, Stirling pulled into the pits and had a bucket of water poured over his head, rejoining the race some fifty seconds later and still cruising to an easy win..."
As the flag being waved for the winner still indicated the end of the race in that era, it would not be possible for a lapped runner to complete another lap, and so take his race time to the 2 hours 14 minutes plus you speak of... much more likely (and I have been guilty myself) is it that there is a typo in the number of laps shown in the sole set of results you have cited to indicate he was on the same lap.
Even possible is a mis-reading of events by the author of that, leading to yet another type of error.
I think you have to accept Motor Sport's results, but calling for confirmation from Autosport and other sources is not out of place. But don't expect a miracle.
Sorry, I haven't got back to you yet with that other, I've been living a very hectic half-life here.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Joe Fan]

Ray, after further review my 'Grand Prix' Third Edition looks to be incorrect. By looking at Forix's aggregate times it does appear that these times are when they stopped scoring drivers because other drivers had lower times than drivers ahead of them but these drivers were a lap down. I just hate mistakes like these from reference books, especially a Third Edition. In Grand Prix by Trevor R. Griffiths, they are consistent in only showing these aggregate times for drivers who finished on the lead lap. So they may have made a big boo-boo. I probably need confirmation to say anything other than he finished second to Moss at this point.

Does anyone have any other reference books to compare this information on the 1959 Portuguese Grand Prix? Don or Dennis?

P.S. Ray, don't worry about getting back to me on the other. I have got a whole new updated and improved one.

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"Frankly, if I couldn't go motor racing I'd have to do something else involving hazard because it is the moment of risk that makes the rest of life bearable, valuable or delightful."--Masten Gregory

[Ray Bell]

You're really getting your teeth into this, Joe, I think everyone reading the board admires you for your effort... keep it up and don't leave any stone unturned. Trouble with that approach is that you finish up never able to finish the job.
When I did the Longford story, I spent more time checking to make sure a race meeting someone said might have happened didn't than I did on the whole rest of the story!
As the man says:

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 05-30-2000).]

[Roger Clark]

Question everything and believe nothing!

A short story from the same Portugese GP which I don't think has been repeated here.

Gregory was following Brabham early in the race. THe Australian ws forced off the track by a wayward back marker, and feeled a pole, bringing down some telephone lines. Gregory threaded his way through the wreckage, "with my feet off the pedals and my hands away from the metal part of the steering wheel, to avoid the risk of electrocution" as he said later.

Whether this said more about his wit, or his knowledge of physics, I don't know.

[Joe Fan]

Roger, I went to the bookstore yesterday and found two different Formula One reference books. One had Masten on the lead lap the other a lap down for the 1959 Portuguese Grand Prix. Argh!!!!

As far as Masten's wit, I don't think he was given enough credit in this area. His high speed bailouts may have drawn attention to his crashes and hurt his career but he lived to walk again and tell about them.

[Joe Fan]

Don, do you know what the status is on the Pantheon?

Roger, from the narration of one of the videos in the set of "A Gentlemen's Racing Diary", it was stated that Stirling had lapped the entire field late in the 1959 Portuguese GP but after looking at the clip of the finish line, it doesn't appear to me that Masten finished 6.5 seconds behind Stirling. In fact, if my eyes are not playing tricks on me, it appears Masten finished ahead of Stirling and may have finished either on the lead lap or was two laps down since you never see a car rushing up behind Stirling six and half seconds later as he takes the checkered flag. And you can see the finish line for quite a while since Stirling moves right over to pit area after he crosses the line. I will have to take a look at this again since this shot may have been Stirling coming back around after already taking the checkered flag.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Joe,
The following information pertains to first and second place in the 1959 Portuguese GP. Several books of mine, which show Gregory with no mention of laps completed, are not shown below. (My remarks are in brackets (…))

Barrie Gill, 'John Player MOTORSPORT YEARBOOK 1973', publ. 1973
1st, Moss in 2h11m55.41s (62 laps)
2nd, Gregory, 61 laps

Eric Dymock, 'GRAND PRIX MOTOR RACING', publ. 1980
1st, Moss in 2h11m55.4s, 62 laps
2nd Gregory, 61 laps

Mike Lang, 'GRAND PRIX', publ. 1981
1st, Moss in 2h11m55.41s (62 laps)
2nd Gregory 1 lap behind (61 laps
Quote, "The remainder of the race was a demonstration run by Moss who continued to move further and further away until at the end he had lapped the entire field."

Peter Higham, 'The Guinnes Guide to International MOTOR RACING', publ. 1995 1st, Moss in 2h11m55.41s, 62 laps
2nd, Gregory, 61 laps

Bruce Jones, 'The Complete ENCYCLOPAEDIA of FORMULA ONE', publ. 1998
1st, Moss in 2h11m55.41s, 62 laps
2nd, Gregory, 61 laps

Trevor Griffith, 'GRAND PRIX' 3rd Ed. , publ. 1998
1st, Moss in 2h11m55.1s, 62 laps
2nd, Gregory, 2h12m01.6s, 62 laps

Analysis: Above sources show how the drivers finished in relation to each other. Five in favor of Gregory being lapped against one on the same lap with the winner.
Conclusion: Gregory was lapped.

Personally, I rate Griffith's book as the best all around F1 reference book. It is very handy and pretty accurate. In my 3rd Edition he erred in this case (1959 Portuguese GP) and there are other slips I found: on page 488 he has no figure for total races contested by Alesi; page 490 has omission of Ascari's GP racing prior to F1; page 491 has Baghetti's first and last name misspelled; page 527 shows that Mass won at Spa in 1975, where he crashed; page 543 shows that Schumacher contested 101 races instead of his 102. By just mentioning these few errors, (not talking about the other books!) I want to show that all reference works of this magnitude carry a certain amount of mistakes. It is the rule.[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 08-20-2000]

[Barry Lake]

Joe Fan
I have the Autocourse Annual for that year and it has a fold-out chart with the lap time of every car on every lap.
There is absolutely no doubt that Gregory was lapped.
And no-one was close to Moss' lap times at any time in the race. He really was dominant that day.
The Autocourse results show the times as stated above but with Moss on 62 laps, Gergory on 61 laps.

[Joe Fan]

Thanks Hans and Barry!

Hans, I have noticed a few of those errors in Griffith's book too. Another reference book where I seen the same Gregory on the lead lap information was a F1 stat book published by Virgin.