172 replies to this topic

[goingthedistance]

Does anyone think pitting early was such an odd strategy from Red Bull? No one stopped this early with hardly any gap to the guys behind.

Was he hung out? Mark is keeping quiet.

Yes I think so. It's very difficult to overtake at Abu Dhabi, it was going to be hard to get Mark past Alonso, so when Red Bull saw that they could use Petrov and Rosberg to get in between Alonso and Vettel they went for it. It was excellent strategy and I'm surprised people are even disputing it was deliberate. Christian Horner and co should be congratulated for out-smarting the Ferrari team. We were watching the live timing very closely and if you go back over the times you will see that Vettel's times inexplicably go down as Mark Webber pits and immediately return to normal as soon as Alonso takes the bait and pits.

No doubt Red Bull wanted to play on the perception that they were vulnerable to degradation on the soft tyre due to their decision to do one long run in quali. So when Mark complained that his tyres were starting to go off they seized their opportunity, pitted him earlier than anyone would expect and made it look like Vettel was suffering equally for a few laps to convince Ferrari he was also likely to pit in the near term. The thing is, if you'd watched practice Mark had suffered much more tyre degradation than Vettel all weekend (as he in fact did in 2009) and Vettel appeared to be quite soft on the softs.

Personally I suspect Webber could have stayed out a bit longer (though not as long as Vettel). Ted Kravitz looked at his tyres after the pit stop and said the fronts were fine and the rears weren't great but you got the impression he was puzzled as to why they'd come in for average tyre wear.

I think you have to applaud Red Bull for that masterful piece of strategy. For my partner and I it seemed obvious at the time, we kept wondering why Brundle and Legard weren't calling that Alonso had just lost the race by falling for RB's trap!

The move may also have put Webber in front of Alonso, though I don't think there was ever a view that this would of itself net Red Bull the championship through Webber. It was all about getting cars between Alonso and Vettel.After qualifying Helmut Marko commented that the team and Vettel now needed Webber to support them, and given his poor quali and pace at this track I think it's fair to say Red Bull went into the race with eyes wide open looking for a way to use Mark for Seb's benefit. Again I can't really blame them, Webber's fate was in his own hands on Saturday.

Edited by goingthedistance, 15 November 2010 - 07:58.

[goingthedistance]

Another interesting point that I don't think people have commented on yet: according to Vettel his engineer had kept him in the dark through the race as to where Alonso and Webber were. This is strange in itself and suggests to me that Vettel and Rocky had agreed not to communicate about Webber's nearness and to leave that to Horner to intercede with position information that might lead to Vettel having to give way.

Quite damning is the fact that now that we know Vettel did not know he was in prime position for the WDC he radioed in two-thirds of the way through the race to complain that his radio was not working properly.

Now why would he do that? Because it's the perfect setup for explaining why he may never have received the information about Webber and Alonso's proximity. I am pretty convinced that had we had that scenario Vettel would not have moved aside and blamed his failure to do so on a radio cock-up.

So:

(1) Vettel didn't know where Webber or Alonso were on track in respect to him, according to his comments in the press conference. Hence winning the WDC was apparently a surprise to him, revealed by his engineer after the finish.
(2) Two thirds of the way through the race Vettel called in to say, in a strange tone, that he was having "radio" problems.
(3) It is very evident from their many communications in the last ten laps of the race that there was nothing wrong with Vettel's ability to receive and transmit radio transmissions.

In the washup it is an irrelevant point, but I believe that it indicates what many of us, and several commentators speculated: Vettel would not have helped his team-mate win the WDC. Before we heard that Vettel was kept in the dark as to Alonso and Webber's position I thought the radio stuff was odd, but it really does make sense now.

Edited by goingthedistance, 15 November 2010 - 08:19.

[ViMaMo]

No.
Mark asked to come in, his tyres where shot.

The only mysteries are why was he SO SLOW and why given his total lack of pace did he chew up his tyres. (he was slow even on fresh tyres)

The sight of him unable to even stay on the rear of FA when FA was held up and making mistakes in an attempt to overtake was confounding.
He was all over FA on in the corners and then faded off into the distance on the straights.

All spilt milk now.
I hope he finds the passion and keeps it over the break, because I am not ready to start supporting RK just yet
And although I find myself warming to LH over this last year I just cant bring myself to being a fan

Wasnt Alonso facing the same problem. Tyres were going through the graining phase. Was he lapping slower than Alonso?
They were going to lose anyways. Webber had no chance of winning the WDC, so they used him as a bait.

If Alonso's pit stop call is being called a blunder, what is Mark Webber's pit stop called?

[HappyPhantom]

Another interesting point that I don't think people have commented on yet: according to Vettel his engineer had kept him in the dark through the race as to where Alonso and Webber were. This is strange in itself and suggests to me that Vettel and Rocky had agreed not to communicate about Webber's nearness and to leave that to Horner to intercede with position information that might lead to Vettel having to give way.

Quite damning is the fact that now that we know Vettel did not know he was in prime position for the WDC he radioed in two-thirds of the way through the race to complain that his radio was not working properly. Now why would he do that?

It's the perfect setup for explaining why he may never have received the information that Webber was behind him and Alonso in third. I am pretty convinced that had we had that scenario Vettel would not have moved aside and blamed his failure to do so on a radio cock-up.

So:

(1) Vettel didn't know where Webber or Alonso were on track in respect to him, according to his comments in the press conference. Hence winning the WDC was apparently a surprise to him, revealed by his engineer after the finish.
(2) Two thirds of the way through the race Vettel called in to say, in a strange tone, that he was having "radio" problems.
(3) It is very evident from their many communications in the last ten laps of the race that there was nothing wrong with Vettel's ability to receive and transmit radio transmissions.

In the washup it is an irrelevant point, but I beieve that it indicates what many of us, and several commentators speculated: Vettel would not have helped his team-mate win the WDC.

The only thing this indicates is that you are overanalyzing things and make it fit your thoughts

If Webber would have been right behind, Rocky would have told him where Alonso is. That the only moment Seb could have been of any help, if Webber was right behind him. But they were both way off, so Rocky knew Seb had a chance to win it. I say, he didn't want Seb to think about the WDC so didn't say where Alonso, Seb can do the maths! It's a good thing to have him concentrate on the race and let others worry about the rest.


Q: (Mathias Brunner – Speedweek) Sebastian, congratulations, at one stage we believe you said over the radio that you have problems with the radio. What was that exactly?

SV: "Yeah, I think I lost the left hand side earplug – I didn't lose it, it didn't fall out but I think it broke down and I only had the right hand side, so I just informed the team that if there's anything they want to tell me, please make sure the pit board is always there and the message is on the pit board as well.

"The radio worked, otherwise I couldn't have chatted with my engineer the last ten laps. He couldn't have given me the message that we won the championship. It was just a little bit on-off, as I said, the left hand side of the ear plug broke down, so I tried to re-connect it and in the end, the last five laps, it was fine again."

But I am sure that this count as an actual explanation since it was Seb who said it...

[DILLIGAF]

I don't really understand why we need a consolation thread on top of a score card thread that has all the excuses.






Webber isn't a nice guy. He is just being sold better than anybody else in the paddock and the selling is done to the detriment of his team mate. Naturally Red Bull expected their faster and better river to have the upper hand over the other guy and did not change their view when Webber profited from the bad reliability of Vettel's car. Why should they. They rightly expected that the situation would be rectified over the season. Unfortunately it turned out different.

In Turkey they were not prepared for Webber's new confidence that he would be leading the team mate contest to the end of the season. The team had no reason to believe that Webber would be fighting for the championship. Under equal reliability conditions that would have been hard to believe. The drivers were tied on 78 points both after Monaco but Vettel had already lost 35 points by mechanical failures while leading the races in Bahrain and Australia. When the defect devil struck again on Vettel's car in Q3 Webber gained a pole that almost certainly should have gone to the faster Red Bull driver. At that point the perception of Mark Webber in his own eye and in the team's eye must have drifted apart. The team thought that he would let his faster team mate pass if he was told about the situation with Hamilton pushing from behind. It was a fatal miscalculation. Webber saw himself as equally good as his team mate and his race engineer decided to disregard the team tactic to let Vettel take the lead. Webber/Pilbeam decided to play hard ball and treat the team mate like any other competing driver. That was neither expected by the team nor by Vettel and his race engineer. The infamous collision happened and a simple tactical decision that could have been reversed again in the course of the race triggered a bitter fight between team mates for the rest of the season.

I believe the team up to that point really did not expected Webber to fight his own championship campaign and were surprised by his stance. Webber himself expressed correctly that his campaign was an inconvenience to the team. Very true. They saw him a lot clearer than Webber saw himself. Webber always overlooked the fact that he wasn't equal on points by his own merit but by the misfortune of his team mate. He hyped himself up or was hyped up by his partner through the middle of the season but from Monza Vettel came back and started to close the gap in Singapore, Suzuka and Jeongam.

At that point latest Webber was loosing his lead massively to Vettel until the devil struck a third time with the engine failure. This made it really hard for Vettel but he took his head down and never put a foot wrong in the last two race weekends while Webber who could have massively profited from his misfortunes threw the race away in Korea. I cannot fault the team for not throwing all their weight behind Webber's challenge at all. From Monza over Singapore, Suzuka, Yeongam, Interlagos to Yas Marina during the last third of the season Webber was constantly outperformed by Vettel but he was still being over sold by his PR machine. He never realized that he wasn't in the same class as Vettel until he saw the qualifying time in Abu Dhabi on Saturday. I believe that was the moment when he realized that he was not good enough. The race result drove that home.

Now Vettel has the momentum of the championship win and it will be very unlikely that the team will ever rate Webber and Vettel equally. For 2011 Webber will have to live with the expectation that he will be beaten once again. What is the point to fight his own team for having a realistic view? He will keep getting equal material but his reputation will only change if he consistently beats Vettel by better performance and not by luck.

If you don't like the thread & hate Webber that much then why not do us all a favour & take your gloating & hatred elsewhere.

One thing i've noticed about the majority of Webber fans here is that they can acknowledge Seb's talent, performances & congratulate him on winning. He's a desrving WDC. Mark Webber is a very good driver. You don't last 10 years in F1 if you're not good.

So i don't see the need for you to continually put the man down. You post the same vitriolic rubbish & hate over & over. It's sad & pathetic fanboyism that most would expect from a 10 year old not an adult.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 15 November 2010 - 08:28.

[valuk]

It's the perfect setup for explaining why he may never have received the information that Webber was behind him and Alonso in third. I am pretty convinced that had we had that scenario Vettel would not have moved aside and blamed his failure to do so on a radio cock-up.
In the washup it is an irrelevant point, but I believe that it indicates what many of us, and several commentators speculated: Vettel would not have helped his team-mate win the WDC.

Well maybe you should read what Vettel said. He saw Kubica in second, he saw Petrov was ahead of Alonso, so he was not totally in the dark. He just chose to focus on his own driving. He also said to put all the necessary information on the pit board (I guess Mark in second would be important imformation, don't you?). What else do you want?
I guess we will never know if Vettel would have helped Mark (I think he would) be we know that Mark hasn't helped Vettel (with getting ahead of Alonso). I'm not saying that he didn't want to help his teammate, maybe he just wasn't comfortable in the car that day, but it looked like he wasn't trying very hard.

[goingthedistance]

Wasnt Alonso facing the same problem. Tyres were going through the graining phase. Was he lapping slower than Alonso?
They were going to lose anyways. Webber had no chance of winning the WDC, so they used him as a bait.

If Alonso's pit stop call is being called a blunder, what is Mark Webber's pit stop called?

Alonso and Webber were on a similar pace before the pitting.

And Sanjiro Mark said his rears were going off, not that he wanted to pit. Big difference. Drivers and engineers are constantly to and froing about tyre status. He said a similar thing in Hungary but managed to keep going another 10+ laps.

[EthanM]

Another interesting point that I don't think people have commented on yet: according to Vettel his engineer had kept him in the dark through the race as to where Alonso and Webber were. This is strange in itself and suggests to me that Vettel and Rocky had agreed not to communicate about Webber's nearness and to leave that to Horner to intercede with position information that might lead to Vettel having to give way.

Quite damning is the fact that now that we know Vettel did not know he was in prime position for the WDC he radioed in two-thirds of the way through the race to complain that his radio was not working properly.

Now why would he do that? Because it's the perfect setup for explaining why he may never have received the information about Webber and Alonso's proximity. I am pretty convinced that had we had that scenario Vettel would not have moved aside and blamed his failure to do so on a radio cock-up.

So:

(1) Vettel didn't know where Webber or Alonso were on track in respect to him, according to his comments in the press conference. Hence winning the WDC was apparently a surprise to him, revealed by his engineer after the finish.
(2) Two thirds of the way through the race Vettel called in to say, in a strange tone, that he was having "radio" problems.
(3) It is very evident from their many communications in the last ten laps of the race that there was nothing wrong with Vettel's ability to receive and transmit radio transmissions.

In the washup it is an irrelevant point, but I believe that it indicates what many of us, and several commentators speculated: Vettel would not have helped his team-mate win the WDC. Before we heard that Vettel was kept in the dark as to Alonso and Webber's position I thought the radio stuff was odd, but it really does make sense now.

you are either

a) a comedian
b) the most self deluding person on the whole wide internets

But all that crap ... in one post ... the only thing you forgot is that Vettel is illuminati. Poor Poor Poor class

[gowebber]

Well I'm gutted for Mark to go out like that in the last race after leading the WDC for quite alot of 2010. He really has given Seb a run for his money this year and quite often there has not been much to split them in comparisons. Mark had his chances to take out the WDC but just made a couple of critical mistakes such as Korea and was just not quick enough in Abu Dhabi. At least he has taken it on the chin, congratulated Seb and acknowledged how well he has driven.

I really hope next year RBR can put all the dramas and infighting behind them and just let Mark and Seb duke it out again on a level playing field. I'm sure this will only spur Mark on to even greater heights next year and with the extra reg changes it shapes up as another exciting year in F1 in 2011

[goingthedistance]

Well maybe you should read what Vettel said. He saw Kubica in second, he saw Petrov was ahead of Alonso, so he was not totally in the dark. He just chose to focus on his own driving. He also said to put all the necessary information on the pit board (I guess Mark in second would be important imformation, don't you?). What else do you want?
I guess we will never know if Vettel would have helped Mark (I think he would) be we know that Mark hasn't helped Vettel (with getting ahead of Alonso). I'm not saying that he didn't want to help his teammate, maybe he just wasn't comfortable in the car that day, but it looked like he wasn't trying very hard.

Yet he states he didn't know he had won the WDC, and that he had been kept in the dark as to the positions of others?

And why complain about a radio problem when we all heard messages back and forth for the last third of the race? Something was not right there.

I'm sure he must have been aware from the tv screens that he was in a good position, but I think the "radio problem" message was part of a preconceived plan to make it clear he wasn't giving up a win.

[RC127]

Engel, I understand that but as I said, I personally thought it was a little disrespectful based upon the events of the season.

Anyhow, I suppose you can say, to the winners go the spoils.

I too understand why Marko was there on the podium but the first thing I said to my wife was "well that's a final 'eff you' to Mark, then".

[EthanM]

Yet he states he didn't know he had won the WDC, and that he had been kept in the dark as to the positions of others?

And why complain about a radio problem when we all heard messages back and forth for the last third of the race? Something was not right there.

I'm sure he must have been aware from the tv screens that he was in a good position, but I think the "radio problem" message was part of a preconceived plan to make it clear he wasn't giving up a win.

I think Horner peed in Webber's fuel tank, that is obviously why he was so damn piss slow all weekend.

[goingthedistance]

you are either

a) a comedian
b) the most self deluding person on the whole wide internets

But all that crap ... in one post ... the only thing you forgot is that Vettel is illuminati. Poor Poor Poor class

Poor class for pointing out something bizarre and in need of explanation.

Yeah, whatever. You can say paranoid, I can say gullible.

What exactly are you doing in a Webber consolation thread?

[goingthedistance]

The only thing this indicates is that you are overanalyzing things and make it fit your thoughts

If Webber would have been right behind, Rocky would have told him where Alonso is. That the only moment Seb could have been of any help, if Webber was right behind him. But they were both way off, so Rocky knew Seb had a chance to win it. I say, he didn't want Seb to think about the WDC so didn't say where Alonso, Seb can do the maths! It's a good thing to have him concentrate on the race and let others worry about the rest.


Q: (Mathias Brunner – Speedweek) Sebastian, congratulations, at one stage we believe you said over the radio that you have problems with the radio. What was that exactly?

SV: "Yeah, I think I lost the left hand side earplug – I didn't lose it, it didn't fall out but I think it broke down and I only had the right hand side, so I just informed the team that if there's anything they want to tell me, please make sure the pit board is always there and the message is on the pit board as well.

"The radio worked, otherwise I couldn't have chatted with my engineer the last ten laps. He couldn't have given me the message that we won the championship. It was just a little bit on-off, as I said, the left hand side of the ear plug broke down, so I tried to re-connect it and in the end, the last five laps, it was fine again."

But I am sure that this count as an actual explanation since it was Seb who said it...

Intermittent issues are exactly how they explain such things in the washup. If you listen to drivers talking about team orders, when they don't follow them they almost always use the on and off again radio excuse. Heidfeld talked about that this year. It actually furthers my tin hat theory!

[RC127]

Yes I think so. It's very difficult to overtake at Abu Dhabi, it was going to be hard to get Mark past Alonso, so when Red Bull saw that they could use Petrov and Rosberg to get in between Alonso and Vettel they went for it. It was excellent strategy and I'm surprised people are even disputing it was deliberate. Christian Horner and co should be congratulated for out-smarting the Ferrari team. We were watching the live timing very closely and if you go back over the times you will see that Vettel's times inexplicably go down as Mark Webber pits and immediately return to normal as soon as Alonso takes the bait and pits.

Completely agree and I got the impression from his BBC interview that - having already been broken psychologically - Webber was a willing participant in this strategy? The ultimate "if you can't beat them, join them" moment!

Edited by RC127, 15 November 2010 - 08:40.

[EthanM]

Poor class for pointing out something bizarre and in need of explanation.

Yeah, whatever. You can say paranoid, I can say gullible.

What exactly are you doing in a Webber consolation thread?

Mark couldn't get himself to a position to fight for a championship. You 're sitting there in your basement making conspiracy theories, that's not "consolation" it's self delusion. And this aint the Mark Webber fans self delusion thread.

Just like you expect others to be magnanimous towards the failures of your driver have the decency to not use a sympathy thread to attack the guy that bested your driver. OK chappie?

[EVO2]

I quite like Webber, but in the end have to feel that the better driver won. Yes, there were a few races in the middle of the season where Webber had an edge over Vettel, but these were in the minority. Overall, Vettel was comprehensively faster. They were only close in points because of Vettel's mechanical problems in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. If it wasn't for that, Vettel would have had at least another 70 points over Webber. As far as I know, Webber didn't suffer from any significant problems (not of his own making) in the same way.

Vettel's one of these drivers you know will typically get the job done. In qualifying for example, when the car is up to it you always expect him to be pretty likely to be on pole. You'd be surprised if he wasn't on the front row. Whereas with Webber it's unknown - yes, he's sometime on it and will do well, but he's just as likely to be a bit average and be third or fourth.

If Webber had won, he'd have been one of these guys, like Button, a talented driver who took advantage of circumstances - car dominance, luck etc, to be WDC. I tend to put Vettel in the same box as Hamilton, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Senna etc - he will take control and always maximise the potential of the car and consistently deliver. Until this race I'd have included Alonso in that list too, now I'm not so sure.

Spot On : I also have some doubts about Alonso's character - he only does well when everything is in his favour

[DILLIGAF]

Well I'm gutted for Mark to go out like that in the last race after leading the WDC for quite alot of 2010. He really has given Seb a run for his money this year and quite often there has not been much to split them in comparisons. Mark had his chances to take out the WDC but just made a couple of critical mistakes such as Korea and was just not quick enough in Abu Dhabi. At least he has taken it on the chin, congratulated Seb and acknowledged how well he has driven.

I really hope next year RBR can put all the dramas and infighting behind them and just let Mark and Seb duke it out again on a level playing field. I'm sure this will only spur Mark on to even greater heights next year and with the extra reg changes it shapes up as another exciting year in F1 in 2011

Great post. My sentiments exactly. Mark gave it a real shake but just wasn't up to it in the end. Good on Seb for winning the title. One thing i'm sure of is that Seb won't underestimate Mark again.

[goingthedistance]

Mark couldn't get himself to a position to fight for a championship. You 're sitting there in your basement making conspiracy theories, that's not "consolation" it's self delusion. And this aint the Mark Webber fans self delusion thread.

Just like you expect others to be magnanimous towards the failures of your driver have the decency to not use a sympathy thread to attack the guy that bested your driver. OK chappie?

The problem you have is that you think me pointing out Vettel may have been sending a message to his team that he wouldn't support Webber means that I think Vettel was somehow less deserving of the championship. Not true at all, he was the better driver in the end. Webber certainly didn't deserve it. I am just interested by the radio thing - clearly the journos were too, which makes it even more interesting.

Seriously in F1 circles an intermittent radio problem is rarely really an intermittent radio thing, especially in races where team orders are at play. Funny how Red Bull only had radio issues at Abu Dhabi and Hungary (where we all know something peculiar went down).

Watching the Red Bull team (Vettel, Horner and Marko in particular) this year has convinced me that they are the masters of the BS! Yet that ruthlessness is what they all lacked last year, and it's made a huge difference.

Edited by goingthedistance, 15 November 2010 - 08:49.

[EthanM]

The problem you have is that you think me pointing out Vettel may have been sending a message to his team that he wouldn't support Webber means that I think Vettel was somehow less deserving of the championship. Not true at all, he was the better driver in the end. Webber certainly didn't deserve it. I am just interested by the radio thing - clearly the journos were too, which makes it even more interesting.

Seriously in F1 circles an intermittent radio problem is rarely really an intermittent radio thing, especially in races where team orders are at play. Funny how Red Bull only had radio issues at Abu Dhabi and Hungary (where we all know something peculiar went down).

The problem is you have constructed this fantasy where Vettel and the team had pre-conspired against Webber. And you did all that based on one radio call that said make sure you put all info on the pitboard cause I m having radio issues. It's all in your head dude. Wake up. And yeah you saying everybody is conspiring against Webber is piss poor. RedBull gave him the car that got him to within a race of the championship. If they wanted to keep Webber down he'd be putting in Kova 08 like results. Get over your delusion, Mark failed himself, the whole universe didn't conspire against him. He lost it in Korea and just wasn't fast in enough in Brazil and Abu Dhabi. It's no big deal and it's honorable. You incessant conspiracy idiocy isn't.

[krapmeister]

I think it's best if both of you take this to the MW vs SV thread. And you can take WhiteBlue with you while you are at it...

Edited by krapmeister, 15 November 2010 - 09:06.

[valuk]

Yet he states he didn't know he had won the WDC, and that he had been kept in the dark as to the positions of others?

Because, as he said, he focused on his driving and not worry if Alonso will get past Petrov, if Hamilton will pass Kubica,...

I'm sure he must have been aware from the tv screens that he was in a good position, but I think the "radio problem" message was part of a preconceived plan to make it clear he wasn't giving up a win.

Then why did he mention the pit board? Surely if Mark was second they would have told him that (on the pit board) and he wouldn't be able to say "I didn't know".
Sometimes it is nobodies fault, it's just the way it is. This time it just wasn't meant to be for Mark. There were no conspiracies, no sabotage. If you desperately want to blame someone, blame Mark, he just wasn't fast enough in the last race. If he would be as close to Seb as he was in some other races, he could be WDC today.

[goingthedistance]

I think it's best if both of you take this to the MW vs SV thread. And you can take WhiteBlue with you while you are at it...

Yep, point taken.

[goingthedistance]

Because, as he said, he focused on his driving and not worry if Alonso will get past Petrov, if Hamilton will pass Kubica,...


Then why did he mention the pit board? Surely if Mark was second they would have told him that (on the pit board) and he wouldn't be able to say "I didn't know".
Sometimes it is nobodies fault, it's just the way it is. This time it just wasn't meant to be for Mark. There were no conspiracies, no sabotage. If you desperately want to blame someone, blame Mark, he just wasn't fast enough in the last race. If he would be as close to Seb as he was in some other races, he could be WDC today.

I'm not making a connection between what Seb may or may not have done and Mark losing the WDC. I'm asking the radio question out of pure intellectual curiosity. It was weird, and clearly the journos thought so too as they bothered to ask the question. I don't think it's wrong to make the suggestion, once you add in the fact that Vettel didn't know his championship position late in the race. As I understand it "I am having radio issues" is common code in F1 for "I will not be following any team orders" so the pitboard reference may not be of relevance.

I am not trying to justify Mark losing the WDC at all, it's irrelevant to that and I said as much in the original post. I knew that was gone on Friday and even had money on Seb to win the WDC and race.

Edited by goingthedistance, 15 November 2010 - 09:17.

[DILLIGAF]

I got bored halfway through that rant, but wow. Why don't you just focus on being happy for Vettel instead of of typing out long, vile and slightly inaccurate rants that just make you look like a very small person. I'd like to see what you have achieved over the years before you start belittling someone else's achievements.

[sanjiro]

AN

"It is only because Mark got held up that they were able to go for the cover, so actually STR did us a real favour – rather unwittingly I suspect."

Well that about sums up MWs place in RBR
I held out hope that AN gave a @#$% but from top to bottom MW is No2 at RBR

I do hope he is not staying, but more and more indications are coming out that he is.
The only reason I can see for him to stay is to collect a nice F1 pay cheque for just one more year.
So as much as I would like to see MW come out swinging in 2011, I just cant see it happening.

[valuk]

I'm not making a connection between what Seb may or may not have done and Mark losing the WDC. I'm asking the radio question out of pure intellectual curiosity. It was weird, and clearly the journos thought so too as they bothered to ask the question. I don't think it's wrong to make the suggestion, once you add in the fact that Vettel didn't know his championship position late in the race. As I understand it "I am having radio issues" is common code in F1 for "I will not be following any team orders" so the pitboard reference may not be of relevance.

I don't think so. I think we hear a lot of the times "my radio wasn't working" from various drivers after the race so I don't think that was a code for not helping Mark. And he could get the same message on the pit board, so what is the difference? If he would not let Mark pass him, everybody would know that that would be because he didn't want to, not because his radio wasn't working.
I could say that Mark didn't want to help Seb (with getting ahead of Alonso, or at least try) but without 'evidence' I can't say that.
Anyway, Mark had a great season but in the end, it just wasn't enough.

[sanjiro]

I don't think so. I think we hear a lot of the times "my radio wasn't working" from various drivers after the race so I don't think that was a code for not helping Mark. And he could get the same message on the pit board, so what is the difference? If he would not let Mark pass him, everybody would know that that would be because he didn't want to, not because his radio wasn't working.
I could say that Mark didn't want to help Seb (with getting ahead of Alonso, or at least try) but without 'evidence' I can't say that.
Anyway, Mark had a great season but in the end, it just wasn't enough.

Thats what I thought was going on.
Hate to say it about MW but considering he sat back so far from FA despite FA being held up and not doing anything like the times MW or FA could do, I find myself thinking he made no attempt at all.

FA stumbled several times behind the Renault and had MW been on his tail he could have slipped under.
Now none of that would have mattered in the end but at the time this was happening the race was far from over.

Anyway, this probably does not belong in this thread.

Gratz MW on a solid year that was almost so much more.
Hope we see you firing in 2011 and hope its with a different team.

[engel]

Or Mark just wasn't fast enough to take the fight to Alonso ... I mean anybody with half a brain could see Mark couldn't put the power down out of the slow corners, which gave Alonso a big gap in the straights ... Do we really need to turn everything into a conspiracy?

[goingthedistance]

AN

"It is only because Mark got held up that they were able to go for the cover, so actually STR did us a real favour – rather unwittingly I suspect."

Well that about sums up MWs place in RBR
I held out hope that AN gave a @#$% but from top to bottom MW is No2 at RBR

I do hope he is not staying, but more and more indications are coming out that he is.
The only reason I can see for him to stay is to collect a nice F1 pay cheque for just one more year.
So as much as I would like to see MW come out swinging in 2011, I just cant see it happening.

Yes I read that article, the comments are I think unintentionally a bit harsh for MW, it comes across as Newey considering MW as collateral road kill. Christian Horner's comments yesterday that they were validated because they'd gotten the best driver the WDC were a lot worse though.

I would almost prefer Webber to retire than be SV's b*tch. We all know this RB obsession with equality was a 2010 wonder, a product of circumstance. It didn't exist last year and probably won't next year.

Edited by goingthedistance, 15 November 2010 - 10:05.

[aditya-now]

hard luck Mate but keep er lit!

I do hope Mark stays on it, for who knows what next year brings....Mark could well still win the title in 2011!

[zeph]

The problem is you have constructed this fantasy where Vettel and the team had pre-conspired against Webber. RedBull gave him the car that got him to within a race of the championship. He lost it in Korea and just wasn't fast in enough in Brazil and Abu Dhabi. It's no big deal and it's honorable. You incessant conspiracy idiocy isn't.

The weird thing is, before the start of the season Horner etc. were quite open about Vettel being the #1 driver. He was their champion-to-be, the team was focusing on him. It wasn't a big secret or anything. Nobody cared. It was when Webber started beating Vettel that it became a problem.

RBR never claimed equal treatment for both drivers until recently. I do not think that they have outright sabotaged Webber's bid for the title, but to me it is clear as hell they did not support it.

Post #82, if you like. http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4720257

And I think it is not very classy to piss all over Webber in a 'consolation thread'.

Edited by zeph, 15 November 2010 - 11:04.

[boldhakka]

Post #82, if you like.

And I think it is not very classy to piss all over Webber in a 'consolation thread'.

Could you clarify what you mean by "support"? He said himself he had equal equipment and he obviously had the support of his side of the garage. What more does he want? A cookie perhaps?

He did a very good job this season, but he went about it the totally the wrong from the mental angle, especially near the end.

[zeph]

Not sure what you don't understand. I think I have been pretty clear.

[goingthedistance]

Post #82, if you like.

And I think it is not very classy to piss all over Webber in a 'consolation thread'.

Zeph I think you've got it perfectly right. It was never in Red Bull's interest to sabotage Webber and I'm sure there was never any intent to do that. They wanted the WCC after all. But Webber was right when he said his form in 2010 was an inconvenience to the team. And he certainly didn't get the support you'd normally see a team give a driver substantially in front of his team-mate with two races to go. No not team orders. I mean things like the last run in quali in Brazil or Abu Dhabi. Things like Horner coming out prior to Brazil and announcing the team will be built around Vettel in 2011 - I mean, what was the point of that? Way to make Webber feel on the outs. Dreadful timing. And then post-Korea having Gerhard Berger (close friend of DM) in an interview from Red Bull's Hangar 7 saying some spectacularly nasty things without anything to back it up.

So much of the tension between SV and MW felt unnecessary and was a product of poor management IMO. It worked out for them in the end, but I'm not convinced they needed to make it so hard for themselves, or make Webber feel so isolated.

Edited by goingthedistance, 15 November 2010 - 11:08.

[engel]

Post #82, if you like. http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4720257

And I think it is not very classy to piss all over Webber in a 'consolation thread'.

I don't understand what you mean ... honestly. Webber had the equipment and opportunity to become world champion. That's all the support the team can provide him with. You want to see examples of unsupported drivers there are many examples in F1 history, do you really want me to drag some out?

Whether Horner baked Webber cakes and Marko gave him backrubs is completely and utterly irrelevant. They gave him the car to go out to fight for a WDC. And they allowed him to do it. If they didn't want Webber in the WDC running, trust me they had 1 million ways to stop him without you or me ever being none the wiser.

And consolation isn't synonymous with blaming everybody else. Consolation is comfort after disappointment. I fail to see why blaming everybody else is comfort.

[boldhakka]

Zeph I think you've got it perfectly right. It was never in Red Bull's interest to sabotage Webber and I'm sure there was never any intent to do that. They wanted the WCC after all. But Webber was right when he said his form in 2010 was an inconvenience to the team. And he certainly didn't get the support you'd normally see a team give a driver substantially in front of his team-mate with two races to go. No not team orders. I mean things like the last run in quali in Brazil or Abu Dhabi. Things like Horner coming out prior to Brazil and announcing the team will be built around Vettel in 2011 - I mean, what was the point of that? Way to make Webber feel on the outs. Dreadful timing. And then post-Korea having Gerhard Berger (close friend of DM) in an interview from Red Bull's Hangar 7 saying some spectacularly nasty things without anything to back it up.

So much of the tension between SV and MW felt unnecessary and was a product of poor management IMO. It worked out for them in the end, but I'm not convinced they needed to make it so hard for themselves, or make Webber feel so isolated.

I think the assumption was he could take this sort of thing as long as they gave him an equally competitive car and operational support to win races with it. Sheesh, this is just embarrassing. You're doing him a disservice by bringing up this nebulous intangible stuff.

He himself is fine with it all. This is what he said in the interview:

Q. You still seem to feel that the team isn't fully behind you...

MW: Technically everything's been very, very good.

Q. But on the personal side?

MW: It's obvious isn't it.

Q. But why do you think that?

MW: Of course when young, new chargers come onto the block, that's where the emotion is. That's the way it is. Which is absolutely fine, because I've had a great opportunity and a great car to go and do some great things this year, and I have done that. That's what I've just explained. I've got favourites in life. I've got people I like to be with. That's how it is. It's human nature.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87916

[DILLIGAF]

Or Mark just wasn't fast enough to take the fight to Alonso ... I mean anybody with half a brain could see Mark couldn't put the power down out of the slow corners, which gave Alonso a big gap in the straights ... Do we really need to turn everything into a conspiracy?

^This. Mark simply didn't have the pace i'm afraid.

[harrows]

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."

Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us".

Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

[valuk]

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."

Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us".

Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

Well, I think he is just talking about his side of the garage.

[zeph]

To be honest, Webber was never even on my radar until Monaco. But the way he dominated there and in Spain was just awe-inspiring. He literally left Vettel in the dust.

Ditto in Turkey. He was on a roll, riding the crest of the wave, and I continue to believe that he could have won there and at least two more GP's if that incident had not taken place.

Webber's story was a good one (almost heroic), coming back from very heavy injury, being consistently beaten by a younger and (admittedly) more talented teammate. But he just kept at it and found that little extra that made him superb earlier this season. Now THAT is sportsmanship.

I supported his title bid if only because it is inspiring to see an older, supposedly over-the-hill driver rejuvenate himself and challenge the best of the field in the autumn of his career. Tenacity over prospect. Individual willpower vs. corporate interests.

Emotional support is a tricky thing, hard to quantify and easily dismissed, yet (as everyone who has to do without can tell you) tremendously important and powerful. If you have lost favor with the management in your office, you may still have all your stuff sitting on your desk to get the job done, but you WILL know something is wrong. Indubitably, it is subtle, and if you prefer to believe the whole RBR spin at face value, good for you. No prob.

Of course, he was never going to win, but still it was a nice dream while it lasted. I am sure that he could have done it had he not been robbed off his momentum.

To me Webber is the moral champion of the season! Go Mark!

[flyer121]

I dont know if Mark needs consolation as such but anyone who is so close to sealing the title and was just pipped at the post deserves respect.

I have to admit that when we were going to Australia and media quoted Webber as favorite to win , I was more than surprised because I never rated him anywhere near top 3. After seeing 17 further races he has certainly made me change my opinions with his speed and racecraft and he will remain as a top drawer driver in my book.

Have to be slightly disappointed because Webber looked out of pace and his body language didn't exude the confidence which a contender's should.
But as has been said before, Mark was extremely unlucky to have had the fastest teammate when he finally found the fastest car! But he did fight as hard as he could and only buckled in the last 3 races.

Even though I supported Seb most of the season and him suffering all the bad luck which could be thrown at him, Seb got the rub from the Lady Luck at the right time.
The first bit was the first corner tussle with Lewis who was late braking as usual. Seb showed the balls to keep him at bay and may I say was a little lucky there to not get a contact. All kudos to him tho coz that's how championships are won.
The next one was the Safety car which allowed the other cars to pit and run long stints and later on blocking Alonso / Webber.
One more lucky bit was the Alonso going for covering Webber which was unexpected. In a way Mark has a lot to do with Seb's WDC and inadverantly helped Seb.
But as we say the brave make their own luck!

The rest of the drive was flawless but we know Seb is good at Lights to Flag as it is !

More generally, I also feel that Seb found inspiration from all the controversy which was generated because of team favors row, he used it to fire himself up and go for the kill. So in a way Seb has Mark to thank for the championship.

So well done Seb and well done Mark for 2010 !!

[Lights]

Ditto in Turkey. He was on a roll, riding the crest of the wave, and I continue to believe that he could have won there and at least two more GP's if that incident had not taken place.

The odd thing about that incident was that even though it gained him more points over Vettel than without an accident, it probably caused his downfall in the championship. After it he only won 2 races in which Vettel had damage or a penalty.

Also the reason why I don't see the need to consolate Webber that much however. He didn't perform strongly enough, it's obvious. It's just that we'll never know how much of that was caused by the Red Bull management.

[BrabJackham]

Although, I am sad to see Webber lose, after having such a great season, he virtually dropped the ball/ froze during the last two races.

He should have won at least one of the 3 last races and he didnt. Qualifying on Saturday was abysmal and the race on Suday disgusting.

Webber is a man who likes critising, but we have to critisize him today.

I remember a sentence he once said about his former Team mate Nick Heidfeld: "He just sits there and does nothing"

And that was exactly what Webber did yesterday: He just sat there and did nothing

[goingthedistance]

To be honest, Webber was never even on my radar until Monaco. But the way he dominated there and in Spain was just awe-inspiring. He literally left Vettel in the dust.

Ditto in Turkey. He was on a roll, riding the crest of the wave, and I continue to believe that he could have won there and at least two more GP's if that incident had not taken place.

Webber's story was a good one (almost heroic), coming back from very heavy injury, being consistently beaten by a younger and (admittedly) more talented teammate. But he just kept at it and found that little extra that made him superb earlier this season. Now THAT is sportsmanship.

I supported his title bid if only because it is inspiring to see an older, supposedly over-the-hill driver rejuvenate himself and challenge the best of the field in the autumn of his career. Tenacity over prospect. Individual willpower vs. corporate interests.

Emotional support is a tricky thing, hard to quantify and easily dismissed, yet (as everyone who has to do without can tell you) tremendously important and powerful. If you have lost favor with the management in your office, you may still have all your stuff sitting on your desk to get the job done, but you WILL know something is wrong. Indubitably, it is subtle, and if you prefer to believe the whole RBR spin at face value, good for you. No prob.

Of course, he was never going to win, but still it was a nice dream while it lasted. I am sure that he could have done it had he not been robbed off his momentum.

To me Webber is the moral champion of the season! Go Mark!

Very, very well said. People diss the emotional support angle, but it's really very important in sport. You have to have the confidence of your management team, and Red Bull never really indicated they thought Webber was their man. In fact, when Webber was out front for so long, I was shocked that they still didn't say much in the way of positive things about him.

I remember after Silverstone thinking that he wouldn't win a race again all season, and in effect he didn't (Hungary was great, but required misfortune from Vettel). Whilst he won many fans on that day I think he also lost the slim amount of love he had from the likes of Horner and Newey due to his post-race comments.

If I could make a criticism of Mark it is that he needs to learn to be more diplomatic. He has always been outspoken. He is good at rubbing people the wrong way. I think there were definite grounds for feelings of injustice, but he didn't necessarily handle things the right way, particularly in Brazil.

[sejanus]

Although, I am sad to see Webber lose, after having such a great season, he virtually dropped the ball/ froze during the last two races.

He should have won at least one of the 3 last races and he didnt. Qualifying on Saturday was abysmal and the race on Suday disgusting.

Webber is a man who likes critising, but we have to critisize him today.

I remember a sentence he once said about his former Team mate Nick Heidfeld: "He just sits there and does nothing"

And that was exactly what Webber did yesterday: He just sat there and did nothing

It was the track at fault - if alonso in a ferrai couldn't pass a newbie driver in a renault, what hope did webber have of passing alonso?

By your definition, alonso also sat there and did nothing.

[DILLIGAF]

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."

Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us".

Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

He was talking about his race engineer, chief mechanics & the blokes on his side of the garage obviously. Get a clue.

I'm sure if he said "i" instead of "we" you would have criticised him for talking about himself & not including his pit crew.

[JosTheBoss]

Yep, Vettel refers to his group as 'we' all the time.

[WhiteBlue]

The consolation thread is hardly more than a collection of excuses for the Webber fans and an opportunity to invent more conspiracy theories for those with more lively imagination. But the game can be played from both sides. I was prepared to give Mark Webber credit as a WDC if he had pulled it off in the the last round. He didn't and so this story was never written. Instead we wade through an ocean of self illusion which I'm not prepared to support. After a brief lip service to the man who beat their hero convincingly in the same equipment the Webber supporters fill pages after pages with their grief and crying. It needs a bit of counter balancing.

Could you clarify what you mean by "support"? He said himself he had equal equipment and he obviously had the support of his side of the garage. What more does he want? A cookie perhaps? He did a very good job this season, but he went about it the totally the wrong from the mental angle, especially near the end.

This Mark Webber against Red Bull charade was annoying like hell. Don't drive for the team if you don't like what you get.

It was never in Red Bull's interest to sabotage Webber and I'm sure there was never any intent to do that. They wanted the WCC after all. But Webber was right when he said his form in 2010 was an inconvenience to the team. And he certainly didn't get the support you'd normally see a team give a driver substantially in front of his team-mate with two races to go. No not team orders. I mean things like the last run in quali in Brazil or Abu Dhabi. Things like Horner coming out prior to Brazil and announcing the team will be built around Vettel in 2011 - I mean, what was the point of that? Way to make Webber feel on the outs. Dreadful timing. And then post-Korea having Gerhard Berger (close friend of DM) in an interview from Red Bull's Hangar 7 saying some spectacularly nasty things without anything to back it up. So much of the tension between SV and MW felt unnecessary and was a product of poor management IMO. It worked out for them in the end, but I'm not convinced they needed to make it so hard for themselves, or make Webber feel so isolated.

Webber was the one who was having his one man war against Red Bull while they were constantly saying that he got equal equipment and opportunity. It was very annoying for Vettel fans to have his reputation constantly smeared by the Webber PR machine. Gerhard is a great supporter of Sebastian's talent and gave him the car for his first victory in Monza 2008. Webber and DC were having by far more resources and were getting all the technical support from Adrian Newey months earlier than Toro Rosso. They could not match Vettel who beat them to glory by his talent and pace. Gerhard only told it as it was. Webber did not brake and knowingly allowed his car to become a hazard to the runners behind him. It is called "causing an avoidable collision" by the code.

Webber had the equipment and opportunity to become world champion... Whether Horner baked Webber cakes and Marko gave him backrubs is completely and utterly irrelevant. They gave him the car to go out to fight for a WDC. And they allowed him to do it. If they didn't want Webber in the WDC running, trust me they had 1 million ways to stop him without you or me ever being none the wiser. And consolation isn't synonymous with blaming everybody else. Consolation is comfort after disappointment. I fail to see why blaming everybody else is comfort.

well said

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."
Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us". Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

+1 Webber had it in his own hands to put a #1 on his car. He didn't and so he will have #2 next year.

I felt a bit of a disappointment that Dietrich Mateschitz did not go on the podium. He did great this season and all the years before. Unfortunately he is a very shy man when it comes to public appearances. He never goes on television if he can avoid it and he probably decided to send Helmut Marko instead. It was a fitting replacement as Marko had represented him for many seasons in F1. I'm sure most people around the world understood the gesture by the team towards their Austrian ownership.

Ok, now to the consolation bit. Mark Webber came back well from his injuries in 2008 which must have influenced his form in 2009. He drove a couple of good races and was often close to the pace which allowed him to pick up when one of the other contenders dropped the ball. He showed his experience in the qualifying under changing conditions such as Malaysia where he pulled out a 1.4 s lead and Spa. He also fully utilized his experience in Silverstone where he drove with a cool head and a hard hand. He generally used his great luck and the machinery he got to maximize his points. He deserved to be in the title race down to the wire and the place he got.

[Smile17]

What next for Mark Webber? Who thinks he will stay at RedBull?