221 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

People keep talking about the aerodynamics and track lay-outs being the main causes for the lack of overtaking, but there is also a set-up problem, namely the gear ratios.

To optimise the cars performace, teams chose their gear ratios in such a way that they hit the rev-limiter at the end of the straights. Making it impossible for these cars to overtake other cars as they all have similar top-speeds.
The most recent example is Alonso in Abu Dhabi, where he was stuck behind Petrov for the entire race. During Qualifying Alonso reached a topspeed of 312.9 km/h. During the race, on one of the longest straights in F1 in the slipstream of another (slightly higher topspeed) car, he managed a best of 314.0 km/h compared to Petrovs 316.9 km/h. A mere 1 km/h faster than under normal circumstances. And people wonder why he wasn't able to overtake?

While the track might not have been the best for overtaking, I'm almost sure Alonso would have been able to at least make a serious attempt at overtaking when he would have been able to reach a higher topspeed while driving in the slipstream Petrov. Now there was no way of him closing in on Petrov on the very long straight because he simply wasn't able to reach Petrovs speed under whatever conditions.

This also gets me thinking about the moveable rearwing. When teams continue to set-up their car for maximum performance, they won't go any faster when they activate the moveable rearwing as they would just be hitting the rev-limiter. The only benefit would be that they get to their topspeed faster.
With the F-duct, it was an advantage in topspeed they knew they would have every lap, so ofcourse they would set-up their car to benefit from it. The moveable rearwing will only be benifical while trying to overtake, but for the rest of the race the longer gear ratios necessary to make a real use of it under overtaking will have a negative effect on the cars' performance. So will teams set-up their car to make use of the extra topspeed for overtaking or for performance under normal conditions?

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 19:30.

[Kucki]

I just had an online race with the Williams F1 in iRacing Simulation and I agree totally. You can have the best exit out of the corner and close up pretty good with the momentum and the slipstream but then in turn you start hitting the rev limiter like 100 meter before the brake point. There is no way you can overtake a car under normal circumstances if that happens. You just keep banging against the rev limiter not gaining any speed from the slipstream.

You could setup the 7th gear a little bit longer, but then you leave like a tenth on the table on all the other situation when your not close behind another car.

Edited by Kucki, 21 November 2010 - 19:46.

[revlec]

People keep talking about the aerodynamics and track lay-outs being the main causes for the lack of overtaking, but there is also a set-up problem, namely the gear ratios.

To optimise the cars performace, teams chose their gear ratios in such a way that they hit the rev-limiter at the end of the straights. Making it impossible for these cars to overtake other cars as they all have similar top-speeds.
The most recent example is Alonso in Abu Dhabi, where he was stuck behind Petrov for the entire race. During Qualifying Alonso reached a topspeed of 312.9 km/h. During the race, on one of the longest straights in F1 in the slipstream of another (slightly higher topspeed) car, he managed a best of 314.0 km/h compared to Petrovs 316.9 km/h. A mere 1 km/h faster than under normal circumstances. And people wonder why he wasn't able to overtake?

While the track might not have been the best for overtaking, I'm almost sure Alonso would have been able to at least make a serious attempt at overtaking when he would have been able to reach a higher topspeed while driving in the slipstream Petrov. Now there was no way of him closing in on Petrov on the very long straight because he simply wasn't able to reach Petrovs speed under whatever conditions.

This also gets me thinking about the moveable rearwing. When teams continue to set-up their car for maximum performance, they won't go any faster when they activate the moveable rearwing as they would just be hitting the rev-limiter. The only benefit would be that they get to their topspeed faster.
With the F-duct, it was an advantage in topspeed they knew they would have every lap, so ofcourse they would set-up their car to benefit from it. The moveable rearwing will only be benifical while trying to overtake, but for the rest of the race the longer gear ratios necessary to make a real use of it under overtaking will have a negative effect on the cars' performance. So will teams set-up their car to make use of the extra topspeed for overtaking or for performance under normal conditions?

I think you are not considering DRAG in your calculations..
The main goal of the F-duct was to reduce Drag on the straights (while maintining the maximum downforce in the corners), so the increase of Top Speed was just a Consequence(given the fact that we have a maximum power output from engine).. so it will be for the Moveable Rear Wing..


Also don't underestimate the Speed a Driver (can) carry at the beginning of the Straight..

[Francesc]

Yep, it's one of the problems of lack of overtaking, if not the biggest. I can't uderstand how FIA haven't noticed it.

[F.M.]

I think you are not considering DRAG in your calculations..
The main goal of the F-duct was to reduce Drag on the straights (while maintining the maximum downforce in the corners), so the increase of Top Speed was just a Consequence(given the fact that we have a maximum power output from engine).. so it will be for the Moveable Rear Wing..


Also don't underestimate the Speed a Driver (can) carry at the beginning of the Straight..

The final gear ratio fixes the topspeed a car can get. It doens't matter what happens to the drag, power, etc. as long as your final gear is set for xxx km/h, you will never be able to go faster than this.

With the F-duct, they knew they could cut the drag et EVERY lap and therefore set the appropriate gear ratio. With the rearwing, they will only be allowed to cut the drag when trying to overtake. So the question is, do you want to give up some performance of the car to achieve a higher topspeed a couple of times in a race, or do you want to set-up the car for maximum performance on regular laps (and qualifying!!)?

This year a lot of cars also weren't set-up to take advantage of the drag reducing effect of a slipstream (Alonso in Abu Dhabi). Which is basically the same condition as when you can adjust the rearwing: close to an other car.

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 21:21.

[engel]

The final gear ratio fixes the topspeed a car can get. It doens't matter what happens to the drag, power, etc. as long as your final gear is set for xxx km/h, you will never be able to go faster than this.

With the F-duct, they knew they could cut the drag et EVERY lap and therefore set the appropriate gear ratio. With the rearwing, they will only be allowed to cut the drag when trying to overtake. So the question is, do you want to give up some performance of the car to achieve a higher topspeed a couple of times in a race, or do you want to set-up the car for maximum performance on regular laps (and qualifying!!)?

This year a lot of cars also weren't set-up to take advantage of the drag reducing effect of a slipstream (Alonso in Abu Dhabi). Which is basically the same condition as when you can adjust the rearwing: close to an other car.

That's just ... wrong in so many ways.

Of course gear ratios don't "set your max speed" ... max speed is a function of drag (aka resistance) weight etc etc hell even tyre pressures affect your speed. Gear ratio is one of the variables.

[F.M.]

That's just ... wrong in so many ways.

Of course gear ratios don't "set your max speed" ... max speed is a function of drag (aka resistance) weight etc etc hell even tyre pressures affect your speed. Gear ratio is one of the variables.

At a certain rpm you hit your rev limiter, that's when you are at your maximum speed. Taking away the drag won't change the fact that you are hitting your rev limiter, hence you can't go any faster.

F1 cars don't really suffer from not having the power to overcome the drag, so gear ratio is limiting. You hear it all the time from the drivers: "I couldn't pass him cause halfway down the straight I was already hitting the rev-limiter so I couldn't close in enough"

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 21:30.

[engel]

At a certain rpm you hit your rev limiter, that's when you are at your maximum speed. Taking away the drag won't change the fact that you are hitting your rev limiter, hence you can't go any faster.

Taking off drag changes your maximum speed. Sure when you hit your limiter you can't go any faster but what you said before is plainly wrong.

PS slipstreaming is all about staying OFF the limiter, if you 're hitting the limiter you 're doing it wrong (ie you are not close enough to overtake)

[F.M.]

Taking off drag changes your maximum speed. Sure when you hit your limiter you can't go any faster but what you said before is plainly wrong.

PS slipstreaming is all about staying OFF the limiter, if you 're hitting the limiter you 're doing it wrong (ie you are not close enough to overtake)

No, hitting the limiter means doesn't mean your slipstreaming wrong, it means your gear ratios aren't set for a higher topspeed. I wouldn't even know how to slipstream wrong, you just drive behind the other car flooring the pedal.

[engel]

No, hitting the limiter means doesn't mean your slipstreaming wrong, it means your gear ratios aren't set for a higher topspeed. I wouldn't even know how to slipstream wrong, you just drive behind the other car flooring the pedal.

that's precisely the wrong way to do it. Slipstreaming is about being able to stay in a tow without using max revs, allowing you to accelerate out of the tow and overtake using the remaing revs. Think about it. If it worked the way you say it works nobody would ever be able to slipstream in the history of motorracing ;)

Topspeed is also a function of engine rpms. In abu dhabi for example you can pretty much see on the onboards Alonso's engine had been turned down when he suddenly started hitting the limiter in the middle of the straight.

[Kucki]

PS slipstreaming is all about staying OFF the limiter, if you 're hitting the limiter you 're doing it wrong (ie you are not close enough to overtake)

Your wrong engel. If the cars 7th gear is set on 320 km/h, you cannot go any faster then that with or without drag. Unless the guy infront makes a major mistake there is no way you can overtake someone using the slipstream BEFORE you hit the limiter.

Edited by Kucki, 21 November 2010 - 22:18.

[BenettonB192]

At a certain rpm you hit your rev limiter, that's when you are at your maximum speed. Taking away the drag won't change the fact that you are hitting your rev limiter, hence you can't go any faster.

Your assumption that the revs are connected to a fixed speed is completely wrong.

[Kucki]

Your assumption that the revs are connected to a fixed speed is completely right.

Fixed

[BillBald]

Already discussed here and here.

But there's no harm in discussing it again, as some people seem to be having trouble seeing that there's a problem.

I even heard Martin Brundle & co talking about the amazing burst of speed we might be seeing next year.

How are we going to get this amazing burst of speed, if the rev limiter won't allow the car to go any faster?

NB: Dunder said that the adjustable rear wing can be used for quali - if he's right, the idea is somewhat workable, because it would mean that the gear ratio could be set accordingly.

[F.M.]

Your assumption that the revs are connected to a fixed speed is completely wrong.

It is? Certain engine rev -> gearbox -> certain driveshaft rev = certain speed.

If the engine is revving at a certain rpm in a certain gear, you have one corresponding speed (assuming no wheel slip). You cannot go 100 km/h at 15000 rpm in 4th gear and go 150 km/h at 15000 rpm in 4th gear. You don't have that choice. Drag and stuff don't change that.

[engel]

Your wrong engel. If the cars 7th gear is set on 320 km/h, you cannot go any faster then that with or without drag. Unless the guy infront makes a major mistake there is no way you can overtake someone using the slipstream BEFORE you hit the limiter.

So what you 're saying is that a car that has specific gearing will have identical top speeds with and without the F-duct engaged right? Cause you know all the f-duct is doing is shedding drag right? So McLaren and 9/10ths of the paddock spent all that money developping f ducts for ... nothing? Or that say if I attached a parachute behind an F1 car (which is basically adding resistance aka drag) the car would maintain the same top speed cause it was geared to do so?

Think motorcycles. Why is the rider ducking down behind the fairing? To decrease drag and increase his speed. If his speed was fixed depending on his gearing he 'd just stand up.

You are probably thinking carts or some saloon categories were aero is a tiny part of the package therefore drag doesn't change much therefore gearing = topspeed. In F1 that doesn't apply.

PS reread what I said, cause I didn't say you can overtake someone before you hit the limiter. I said you should be able to stay in a tow without hitting the limiter

[F.M.]

Already discussed here and here.

But there's no harm in discussing it again, as some people seem to be having trouble seeing that there's a problem.

I even heard Martin Brundle & co talking about the amazing burst of speed we might be seeing next year.

How are we going to get this amazing burst of speed, if the rev limiter won't allow the car to go any faster?

NB: Dunder said that the adjustable rear wing can be used for quali - if he's right, the idea is somewhat workable, because it would mean that the gear ratio could be set accordingly.

Well, according to some people here it is possible to go much faster at the same revs in the same gear

If it is useable in qualifying, that probably solve the problem for a large part yes

[BenettonB192]

It is? Certain engine rev -> gearbox -> certain driveshaft rev = certain speed.

If the engine is revving at a certain rpm in a certain gear, you have one corresponding speed (assuming no wheel slip). You cannot go 100 km/h at 15000 rpm in 4th gear and go 150 km/h at 15000 rpm in 4th gear. You don't have that choice. Drag and stuff don't change that.

That is when you change nothing on the aerodynamics and only mess with the gears. But drive with less rear wing and the car with the same rev settings will go faster on straights because there is less drag (which has a braking effect on the car).

[engel]

Well, according to some people here it is possible to go much faster at the same revs in the same gear

If it is useable in qualifying, that probably solve the problem for a large part yes

of course it is.

Car A and Car B have identical engines and identical gearing,

Car A weighs 600kilos
Car B weighs 2.5tonnes

Will Car A and Car B have identical top speeds?

Now go back to Physics 101 and you 'll realize weight and drag are both resistances to the car's forward motion. Increasing either reduces forward momentum.


PS this thread is getting a bit embarrassing for a motorsport forum

[F.M.]

So what you 're saying is that a car that has specific gearing will have identical top speeds with and without the F-duct engaged right? Cause you know all the f-duct is doing is shedding drag right? So McLaren and 9/10ths of the paddock spent all that money developping f ducts for ... nothing? Or that say if I attached a parachute behind an F1 car (which is basically adding resistance aka drag) the car would maintain the same top speed cause it was geared to do so?

Think motorcycles. Why is the rider ducking down behind the fairing? To decrease drag and increase his speed. If his speed was fixed depending on his gearing he 'd just stand up.

You are probably thinking carts or some saloon categories were aero is a tiny part of the package therefore drag doesn't change much therefore gearing = topspeed. In F1 that doesn't apply.

PS reread what I said, cause I didn't say you can overtake someone before you hit the limiter. I said you should be able to stay in a tow without hitting the limiter

Do you drive and have a manual car? Try the following: On a windy day find a nice piece of straight road, put your car into a gear and floor the pedal till hit maximum revs and check your speed. Turn around and do the same thing driving against the wind (higher drag) and you will see you will reach the same speed.

So yes, if you have set a gearing, you will have the topspeed corresponding to that gearing, with or without F-duct. To achieve a higher topspeed (with the F-duct) you have to adjust the gear ratio's! The F-duct cuts the drag on the car, making it accelerate faster and thereby able to achieve a higher topspeed over a certain length of track. But you have to adjust the gear ratio's to make this higher topspeed possible!

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 22:37.

[revlec]

At a certain rpm you hit your rev limiter, that's when you are at your maximum speed. Taking away the drag won't change the fact that you are hitting your rev limiter, hence you can't go any faster.

F1 cars don't really suffer from not having the power to overcome the drag, so gear ratio is limiting. You hear it all the time from the drivers: "I couldn't pass him cause halfway down the straight I was already hitting the rev-limiter so I couldn't close in enough"

I understand what you are trying to say...
it was just telling that F-duct and Adjustable Rear Wing on the straights will reduce drag, and Gear ratios(the last) are setting taking this into account.

Drag is function of speed.. the faster you go, the more drag you will find so if you can reduce the "force" to overcome, you reduce the force(increase wheel speed) to trasmit to wheels. so last ratio will be smaller given a speed limit of the engine.

Anyway to make you happy, there will be KERS this year..

[F.M.]

of course it is.

Car A and Car B have identical engines and identical gearing,

Car A weighs 600kilos
Car B weighs 2.5tonnes

Will Car A and Car B have identical top speeds?

Now go back to Physics 101 and you 'll realize weight and drag are both resistances to the car's forward motion. Increasing either reduces forward momentum.


PS this thread is getting a bit embarrassing for a motorsport forum

They will both be able to achieve the same topspeed if the engine is powerful enough. Which it is in F1!

However, car A will reach this topspeed earlier because it can accelerate faster.

Drag doesn't limit the top speed of an F1 car at a track, it only limits the achievable top speed on the straights. And the gear ratio's are set to optimise that achievable top speed; max revs at the end of the straight.

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 22:43.

[engel]

Do you drive and have a manual car? Try the following: On a windy day find a nice piece of straight road, put your car into a gear and floor the pedal till hit maximum revs and check your speed. Turn around and do the same thing driving against the wind (higher drag) and you will see you will reach the same speed.

So yes, if you have set a gearing, you will have the topspeed corresponding to that gearing, with or without F-duct. To achieve a higher topspeed (with the F-duct) you have to adjust the gear ratio's! The F-duct cuts the drag on the car, making it accelerate faster and thereby able to achieve a higher topspeed over a certain length of track. But you have to adjust the gear ratio's to make this higher topspeed possible!

Please stop ... seriously You are about 20 different kinds of wrong. Including the novel idea that all the f-duct is doing is increasing acceleration, not topspeed, and to actually increase topspeed you need to change gearing.

Watch this to better understand what the fduct does


But it's all in the first sentence

Edited by engel, 21 November 2010 - 22:43.

[BillBald]

So what you 're saying is that a car that has specific gearing will have identical top speeds with and without the F-duct engaged right? Cause you know all the f-duct is doing is shedding drag right? So McLaren and 9/10ths of the paddock spent all that money developping f ducts for ... nothing?

The point is that the F Duct can be used every lap. So when deciding on gear ratios, the teams will use a higher gear ratio than they would have used if they didn't have the F Duct. So they can go faster.

But the adjustable rear wing cannot be used every lap in a normal race. So if you set your top gear to allow the maximum speed with the adjustable wing, you will have the wrong top gear for normal running. So you will have a slow car, except when you are right behind someone.

[F.M.]

Please stop ... seriously You are about 20 different kinds of wrong. Including the novel idea that all the f-duct is doing is increasing acceleration, not topspeed, and to actually increase topspeed you need to change gearing.

Watch this to better understand what the fduct does


But it's all in the first sentence

Seriously, you are wrong!

Following your logic, if you would let a (F1) car drive in a vacuum it would be able to go infinitely fast, because there is not drag whatsoever. But it can't, because at a certain point you reach the maximum revs and therefore your maximum speed. And yes, these are coupled!
If on a normal road your car won't go any faster than 50km/h in first gear (thus hitting maximum revs allowed), you will never go 100 km/h in a vaccum (or at higher altitude or whereever there is less drag) in first gear, or even 55 km/h. All because at 50 km/h you are at your max revs.

Also it would mean that when you are hitting the rev limiter and you would apply KERS, you would go faster? More power is basically the same at less drag. Well, you won't You will still be kicking the rev limiter, so your speed won't increase.

Or just explain to me why Alonso in Abu Dhabi couldn't achieve a higher topspeed during the race then during qualifying while driving in the slipstream (less drag) of Petrov for over a kilometer? I'll tell you: because his gear ratio's were set to a maximum speed of about 314 km/h.

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 22:57.

[revlec]

Seriously, you are wrong!

Following your logic, if you would let a (F1) car drive in a vacuum it would be able to go infinitely fast, because there is not drag whatsoever. But it can't, because at a certain point you reach the maximum revs and therefore your maximum speed. And yes, these are coupled!
If on a normal road your car won't go any faster than 50km/h in first gear (thus hitting maximum revs allowed), you will never go 100 km/h in a vaccum (or at higher altitude or whereever there is less drag) in first gear, or even 55 km/h. All because at 50 km/h you are at your max revs.

Your theory is correct and i explained why F-Duct drag and movable rear wing are useful on the straights.. (reduce the force to overcome and then the force to trasmit to the wheel shaft increasing the wheel speed through gear ratio, thus higher top speed)


I'm sure you know that to overtake you need to brake later if you are behind, or you prefer to see drivers just pass the guys in the middle of the straight because of their infinite Engine rev speed?

[engel]

Seriously, you are wrong!

Following your logic, if you would let a (F1) car drive in a vacuum it would be able to go infinitely fast, because there is not drag whatsoever. But it can't, because at a certain point you reach the maximum revs and therefore your maximum speed. And yes, these are coupled!
If on a normal road your car won't go any faster than 50km/h in first gear (thus hitting maximum revs allowed), you will never go 100 km/h in a vaccum in first gear, or even 55 km/h.

no you are wrong cause you 're thinking in absolutes.

Take away drag and an F1 car with static gearing might be able to do 400km/h whereas with drag it does 350kmh. It's not infinite speed, it's not static either. Take away wind resistance alltogether and it might do 500kmh. It will most certainly won't do the same top speed it would do with monaco levels of drag.

Ratios/Engine fix speed FOR A SPECIFIC LEVEL OF DRAG. Else what is the tradeoff for running more wing? If drag had no effect on speed everybody would be running max wings all the time, including monza.

Anyways, I m done with this thread but I will leave you with this from formula1.com


Aerodynamics
Monza is the fastest circuit on the calendar with an average speed of around 250 km/h and demands the development of a one-off aerodynamic package in order to attain competitive top speeds of around 340 km/h. This is often termed an 'ultra low-downforce' package, but the critical parameter is actually drag, and namely minimising its effects in order to achieve target top speeds. In the wind tunnel, the teams concentrate on ultra-efficient wing designs, which often vary quite significantly up and down the pit-lane. Naturally, these efficient low-drag wings also produce less downforce. The Monza aero package generates approximately 10 percent to 15 percent less downforce than the package used at the last race in Spa
http://www.formula1....009/9/9912.html

for the love of god ....

Your theory is correct and i explained why F-Duct drag and movable rear wing are useful on the straights.. (reduce the force to overcome and then the force to trasmit to the wheel shaft increasing the wheel speed through gear ratio, thus higher top speed)


I'm sure you know that to overtake you need to brake later if you are behind, or you prefer to see drivers just pass the guys in the middle of the straight because of their infinite Engine rev speed?

how is his theory correct when you are saying the exact opposite?

....

Edited by engel, 21 November 2010 - 23:01.

[V8 Fireworks]

Following your logic, if you would let a (F1) car drive in a vacuum it would be able to go infinitely fast, because there is not drag whatsoever. But it can't, because at a certain point you reach the maximum revs and therefore your maximum speed. And yes, these are coupled!
If on a normal road your car won't go any faster than 50km/h in first gear (thus hitting maximum revs allowed), you will never go 100 km/h in a vaccum (or at higher altitude or whereever there is less drag) in first gear, or even 55 km/h. All because at 50 km/h you are at your max revs.

Engel doesn't seem to get that the rotation of the engine is connected directly to the rotation of the wheels.

The wheels cannot rotate faster for a given engine speed, taking into account gearbox ratios.

Top speed is a function of power and drag ,Power = drag x velocity, at steady state. Yes. But to run a higher top speed the gearing needs to be changed. Obviously the gearing is longer at Monza than Monaco !

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 November 2010 - 23:07.

[revlec]

Please stop ... seriously You are about 20 different kinds of wrong. Including the novel idea that all the f-duct is doing is increasing acceleration, not topspeed, and to actually increase topspeed you need to change gearing.

Watch this to better understand what the fduct does


But it's all in the first sentence

I think F.M. is correct since wheels through gearbox and clutch are connected to the engine... so given a fixed gear ratio, the wheel speed will be function of the engine rev speed if they don't slip..

if the car were a "particle"(without wheels) your reasoning will have been correct..
i have done some of those errors sometimes.. stupid Theory..

Edited by revlec, 21 November 2010 - 23:05.

[Risil]

wat

[engel]

Engel doesn't seem to get that the rotation of the engine is connected directly to the rotation of the wheels.

The wheels cannot rotate faster for a given engine speed, taking into account gearbox ratios.

Less drag will certainly increase acceleration P=Fv (F=T-D)

engel gets wheel rotation, do you get drag limited speed?

5th grade physics -> http://craig.backfir...ages/autos/drag

[Ramses1348]

PS this thread is getting a bit embarrassing for a motorsport forum

I find your complete lack of mechanical understanding embarassing. You have ruined the tread with the help of your rudeness and stupidity. Thanks a lot

Edit: fm honestly i dont know how you can stay calm against such display of wrongful disdain. Kudos to you for staying polite, which i failed

Edited by Ramses1348, 21 November 2010 - 23:11.

[F.M.]

no you are wrong cause you 're thinking in absolutes.

Take away drag and an F1 car with static gearing might be able to do 400km/h whereas with drag it does 350kmh. It's not infinite speed, it's not static either. Take away wind resistance alltogether and it might do 500kmh. It will most certainly won't do the same top speed it would do with monaco levels of drag.

Ratios/Engine fix speed FOR A SPECIFIC LEVEL OF DRAG. Else what is the tradeoff for running more wing? If drag had no effect on speed everybody would be running max wings all the time, including monza.

Anyways, I m done with this thread but I will leave you with this from formula1.com


Aerodynamics
Monza is the fastest circuit on the calendar with an average speed of around 250 km/h and demands the development of a one-off aerodynamic package in order to attain competitive top speeds of around 340 km/h. This is often termed an 'ultra low-downforce' package, but the critical parameter is actually drag, and namely minimising its effects in order to achieve target top speeds. In the wind tunnel, the teams concentrate on ultra-efficient wing designs, which often vary quite significantly up and down the pit-lane. Naturally, these efficient low-drag wings also produce less downforce. The Monza aero package generates approximately 10 percent to 15 percent less downforce than the package used at the last race in Spa
http://www.formula1....009/9/9912.html

for the love of god ....

But they won't reach those speed if they don't adjust the gear ratio's for it!

Don't get me wrong, we're getting close already

- Lower drag means you can achieve a higher top speed at the straight, right? (like the article says)
- F-duct, moveable rearwing and slipstreaming lower the drag, so you should be able to achieve a higher top speed, right?
- BUT, to actually be able to achieve those higher top speeds, you have to set your gear ratio accordingly!

[F.M.]

engel gets wheel rotation, do you get drag limited speed?

5th grade physics -> http://craig.backfir...ages/autos/drag

The sad thing is, you don't get that you don't get it

[F.M.]

I think F.M. is correct since wheels through gearbox and clutch are connected to the engine... so given a fixed gear ratio, the wheel speed will be function of the engine rev speed if they don't slip..

if the car were a "particle"(without wheels) your reasoning will have been correct..
i have done some of those errors sometimes.. stupid Theory..

You don't think, you know

[V8 Fireworks]

Ratios/Engine fix speed FOR A SPECIFIC LEVEL OF DRAG.

Power fixes speed for a specific level of drag.

Engel will be right if the F1 car in question is operated by a turbojet engine with thrust supplied independently of the wheels ! Then drag will fix the speed, not the rotation rate of the turbine.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 November 2010 - 23:12.

[engel]

But they won't reach those speed if they don't adjust the gear ratio's for it!

Don't get me wrong, we're getting close already

- Lower drag means you can achieve a higher top speed at the straight, right? (like the article says)
- F-duct, moveable rearwing and slipstreaming lower the drag, so you should be able to achieve a higher top speed, right?
- BUT, to actually be able to achieve those higher top speeds, you have to set your gear ratio accordingly!

quit wiggling

identincal gearing-identical engines

High drag car
Low drag car

do both get identical top speeds?

alternatively

one car
lap 1 car uses f-duct
lap 2 car doesn't use f-duct

does this car have identical top speeds ON THE LIMITER in both lap 1 and lap 2?

[F.M.]

Power fixes speed for a specific level of drag.

Indeed!

You reach your maximum speed when drag=power OR when rev=max rev. In F1, the last option true.

[revlec]

You don't think, you know

of course i know.. i just wanted to show some solidarity to engel

[F.M.]

quit wiggling

identincal gearing-identical engines

High drag car
Low drag car

do both get identical top speeds?

alternatively

one car
lap 1 car uses f-duct
lap 2 car doesn't use f-duct

does this car have identical top speeds ON THE LIMITER in both lap 1 and lap 2?

Well, yes and yes.

Taking the F-duct version, assuming the straight is long enough to reach the maximum speed in both cases, the difference is that on lap one the car will reach that speed earlier than on lap 2. But the final speed will be same.
(Also assuming the engine is powerful enough, but this is the case in F1)

[revlec]

quit wiggling

identincal gearing-identical engines

High drag car
Low drag car

do both get identical top speeds?

alternatively

one car
lap 1 car uses f-duct
lap 2 car doesn't use f-duct

does this car have identical top speeds ON THE LIMITER in both lap 1 and lap 2?

did you(or are you) study(ing) engineering or physics?

[F.M.]

did you(or are you) study(ing) engineering or physics?

I almost have my Masters in aerospace engineering -> win

Edited by F.M., 21 November 2010 - 23:14.

[prty]

I think F.M. is completly right here (and it is a bit embarrassing reading some people trying to explain that he is wrong).

It is one of the things that hinder overtaking the most.

[revlec]

Well, yes and yes.

Taking the F-duct version, assuming the straight is long enough to reach the maximum speed in both cases, the difference is that on lap one the car will reach that speed earlier than on lap 2. But the final speed will be same.
(Also assuming the engine is powerful enough, but this is the case in F1)

but they will not be at the same distance were on top speed..
that's the difference..

so car 1 will be ahead and car 2 behind

[F.M.]

but they will not be at the same distance were on top speed..
that's the difference..

so car 1 will be ahead and car 2 behind

True. Like I said, with the F-duct will reach its topspeed earlier

[BenettonB192]

Engel doesn't seem to get that the rotation of the engine is connected directly to the rotation of the wheels.

The power applied to the wheels by the engine is not transfered 1:1 into forward movement in the real world. The weight of the car, drag and friction are opposing forces.

Newton's laws of movement would be a good read for starters.

[revlec]

I almost have my Masters in aerospace engineering -> win

Mech Eng Masters here..

[F.M.]

Final example before I go to sleep:

You are on your bike and are cycling against the wind. When you keep your rpm the same and the wind falls away, will you go any faster? No.

[revlec]

Final example before I go to sleep:

You are on your bike and are cycling against the wind. When you keep your rpm the same and the wind falls away, will you go any faster? No.

you didn't tell us if the bike is the one Lance Armstrong uses with gears... joking..

[BillBald]

You don't need a Masters in any kind of engineering.

This is plain common sense.

Let's try one more time...

The team has to choose a top gear for their car for a particular track. This will limit the maximum speed which their car is capable of achieving.

The naive poster might ask: "Why not just choose a very high top gear? You never know what circumstances might come about which will enable the car to go faster than you expected. You might get a very good tow, you might get a strong tailwind, you might be able to deploy an adjustable wing".

That's a very valid point. Why don't teams always choose the highest top gear available to them?

The reason is, that if your top gear is too high, you will go slower. The engine will not be in the best rev range. It would be as though you were driving up a steep hill, and didn't think to change to a lower gear. I think all of us have experienced this.

With the F Duct, the teams knew that they could always deploy it, so they could allow for it, their top gear would always be good.

But the adjustable wing cannot be used except when you are close behind another car.

Edited by BillBald, 21 November 2010 - 23:38.