19 replies to this topic

[Egon Thurner]

In the earliest days of motorracing Conte Vincenzo Florio organized the 'Coppa Florio'. Yet some mysteries seems to cover this series ...

The trophy itself, the 'Coppa' (Cup), was designed as an award to the manufacturer 'with most victories after seven races'. Well it lasted about 20 years ...

Seems, that the first race had been in the year 1905. Sheldon says 1904, Georgano says 1900, Rendall and some others say 1905.

1900 there had been a race, certainly organized by Conte Florio, but simply called 'Brescia-Cremona-Mantua-Verona-Brescia' or 'Brescia circuit'. Some authors call that event 'Coppa Florio', but most probably that will not be the truth. The first 'Coppa Floria', called so by it's instigator and organizer Vincenzo Florio, was the race, held in the year 1904. But that race - so it seems to me - was not part of the above described series called 'Coppa Florio'. The races, counted for the award, were held in the years 1905, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1921 (combined with the Italian Grand Prix!), 1922, and 1924 (combined with the Targa Florio, but some extra rules and the same cars - one more mystery).

BTW: Beginning in the year 1905 the winning manufacturer gained the right to have the following years race in his country - according to the rules of the Coupe Internationale (Gordon Bennett Cup) and also the Vanderbilt Cup. So in every case 1905 was a new beginning.

Seven races - seven different winning manufacurers - seven winners of the cup - or none ?

And now, what happened. Rendall says: 'There was no clear winner'. How can we interprete this quote? Of course there was not. Or had there been some additional rules, not only counting wins, but also second and third places, for example? Georgano tells us: 'Peugeot and Itala had equal honours and the cup was to go whichever of these marques was in the lead at the end of the forth lap in 1925.' Why only this two, and not also the other five race-winners?

Certain is only, that the race in 1925 was held. A Peugeot won, and eventually everything went right.

Can anybody answer the open questions about the exact rules and the counted races?

And why Sheldon makes a difference between the races of 1905, 1907, 1921 and 1922 on the one hand and 1908, 1914 and 1924 on the other ? Cryptically (1924) he says: ' ... was held for production cars, it does not have a place in these records.' Does that mean, he wants to express, that the races for the 'Coppa' were held for different car-categories over the years? I do not think so, maybe with the exception of the year 1924, but even in 1924 it seems, that the Targa-cars - but maybe not all of them - competed in the 'Coppa', only running an extra lap for the 'Coppa' result ?!

The last open question:
The 'Brescia'-circuit had different length every year: 139 mls (1900); 115,63 mls (1904), 103,80 mls (1905); 37,70 mls (1907); 10,75 mls (1921, GP). What were the backgrounds for this yearly changes ? (Afterwards the race changed to the known sizilian 'Madonie'.)

[Felix Muelas]

Egon

Many (really many) years ago I wrote some notes about the Coppa Florio. Now, I have to confess that I have not double-checked any of this against any of the sources you mention (and/or any others) but at the time it made some sense, and I always thought that was the story.
Of course I am terribly interested in "resucitating" the subject, so please consider these notes as an open subject for discussion.
I believe sources in these should be my early books and magazines, but I don´t have a lot more at this stage.

The Coppa, as you said, was a challenge organised over an original number of seven races, as follows :

1.10sep1905 Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Brescia (three times, 501kms). Winner G Battista Reggio, Itala 100, second Duray (de Dietrich) third Lancia (Fiat).

2.1sep1907 Brescia-Castiglione-Lonato-Brescia Winner F Minoia (Isotta Fraschini), second Hemery (Benz) third Hanriot (Benz)

3.1908 (Bologna) Borgo Panigale-Castelfranco Emilia-Bivio Nonantola-S. Giovanni in Persicetto-Borgo Panigale Winner Nazzaro (Fiat) second Trucco (Lorraine-de Dietrich) third Cagno (Itala)

4.1914 (Sicilia) Madonie Winner Nazzaro, second Ceirano, third Franchini

5.4sep1921 (Brescia) Circuito di Montichiari Winner Goux (Ballot) second Chassagne (Ballot) third WAgner (Fiat)

6.19nov1922 (Sicilia) Madonie Winner Boillot (Peugeot), second Segrave (Sunbeam) third Becqet (Peugeot).

7.1924 (Sicilia) Madonie One further lap to the track once completed the Targa. Winner Werner (Mercedes) second Masetti (Alfa) third Campari (Alfa)

As there had been seven different winners -as you point out- a further race was organised to solve the award :

8.1925 (Sicilia) Madonie. Classification established after the fourth lap of the five raced for the Targa (so exactly the inverse of the previous year) Boillot (Peugeot) wins and is awarded the Coppa Florio after his win in 1922.

BUT

It seems that Peugeot decided to "offer back" the Coppa thus allowing some more races to happen and further and increased competition to take place, so FOUR more races took place as follows :

9.1926 (Sicilia) Madonie Bugatti (Constantini, Minoia and Goux)

10.1927 (French Bretagne!!) Saint Brieuc. A complicated race run for five different classes of cars, where the classifications were obtained with a system that I never fully understood but that might have been related to "regularity", hence the winner would be the one that could drive all the laps in the closest to same time each one...Winner was Laly driving an Aries 3000.

11.1928 (Sicilia) Madonie Bugatti (A Divo), Alfa (Campari), Bugatti (Conelli)

12.1929 (Sicilia) Madonie Bugatti again (Divo).

Those were the notes, and now that I re-read them again, one might come to the conclussion that first Peugeot and later Bugatti won the Coppa...

Now I see that I have got no car "attached" to Nazzaro´s win in 1914, so that might be an explanation for the "apparent" discrepancy in explaining whether there were "equal honours" between Peugeot and Itala.
Because Nazzaro might have been driving an Itala, of course, but he might have also been (and I don´t have the data at hand) a Nazzaro too...in which case the Peugeot win would have been clear come 1925.

Hans? Alessandro? Everybody out there ?


Felix

[fines]

I can confirm that Nazzaro won the 1914 Florio Cup with a car of his own make, the Tipo 3.

[Egon Thurner]

Felix, thank you for your comprehensive reply. Some contradiction comes to daylight:

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


1905 Winner G Battista Reggio

3.1908 Winner Nazzaro (Fiat) second Trucco (Lorraine-de Dietrich) third Cagno (Itala)


.. , so FOUR more races took place as follows :

9.1926 (Sicilia) Madonie Bugatti (Constantini, Minoia and Goux)

10.1927 (French Bretagne!!) Saint Brieuc. A complicated race run for five different classes of cars, where the classifications were obtained with a system that I never fully understood but that might have been related to "regularity", hence the winner would be the one that could drive all the laps in the closest to same time each one...Winner was Laly driving an Aries 3000.

11.1928 (Sicilia) Madonie Bugatti (A Divo), Alfa (Campari), Bugatti (Conelli)

12.1929 (Sicilia) Madonie Bugatti again (Divo).

1905: Reggio or Raggio, which name is correct ?

1908: Your data according to Sheldons book, are different to Monkouse's. he states: 1. Porperato (Berliet), 2. Appendino (S.P.A.), 3. Buzio (Franco) - exactly the dates, that Sheldon has for the 'Targa Bologna' (for Targa-cars), not the 'Coppa Florio'(for GP-cars) ?!

Originally posted by Felix Muelas


Those were the notes, and now that I re-read them again, one might come to the conclussion that first Peugeot and later Bugatti won the Coppa...

Now I see that I have got no car "attached" to Nazzaro´s win in 1914, so that might be an explanation for the "apparent" discrepancy in explaining whether there were "equal honours" between Peugeot and Itala.
Because Nazzaro might have been driving an Itala, of course, but he might have also been (and I don´t have the data at hand) a Nazzaro too...in which case the Peugeot win would have been clear come 1925.

Well, Nazzaro had his Nazzaro, and if he had had his Itala, then Itala had been the clear winner after 7 races !

And the four races of the second series: 1927 is clear, but the others? Who states, they counted for the 'second Coppa' ? I always thought, the races only were planned, but never run really. And your data for 1926, 1928 and 1929 exactly match the Targa Florio Data, don't they?

So I hope for some more contribution in this - really getting more and more interesting - topic ...

[Egon Thurner]

For 1908 also Georgano states Berliet as the winning make ...

[Hans Etzrodt]

Egon,

Don't you think it somewhat puzzling that Felix has basically the same information, which also appears on my list? Now, I have no clue where from Felix has his information but he surely doesn't have it from me. I recently had sent you my latest list, which is derived from a much larger one and therefore some data acquisition is rather old. At the same time I am somewhat puzzled why you were unable to extract the correct data from my list and are still confused. It shows me that my list is not as good as I had thought it to be.

On the other hand, do you think is it conceivable that two people, not connected with each other, have come up with the same correct answer after having spent numerous hours researching this topic, each on his own? Egon, how much time have you spent on this topic already, which, I admit, becomes confusing as you try to sort out the contradicting data of your various sources. That process is then called RESEARCH. Welcome to the club, Egon.

BTW, Felix has given you excellent information, probably the best you have right now. Before I go further, you need to tell me if you also included my list as one of your sources, as you have now the following in chronological order:

[*]George Monkhouse - 1964?
[*]GN Georgano (Encyclopaedia)- 1971
[*]Paul Sheldon - 1987
[*]Ivan Randall - 1993
[*]my list - 2000
[*]Felix Muelas – 2000

These are obviously not sufficient references to form a good picture about the Coppa Florio events. I can assure you that I used others to acquire data for my list, which, by the way, is correct to the best of my knowledge. I omitted the 1927 event from this GP-list because the race was not held for GP cars.

I will be back in case I dig up something helpful.

[Hans Etzrodt]

I dug this out of my files, an e-mail from November, slightly alterd; hope it helps.

Q.: ...what is the correct name of the 1904 race, Coppa Florio or Coppa Brescia?

According to W.F. Bradley in his book Targa Florio, the 1904 race was the first race of the Brescia series called Coppa Brescia. Vincenco Florio drove in it but did not present his Trophy, called "Coppa Vincenzo Florio".
Cullen Thomas wrote the Coppa Florio" story in Automobile Quarterly Vol.11, No. 4. He gives a detailed account and writes that even,

quote:"no less chronicler than Gerald K. Rose, among others, would doubt the 1904 event as the "second Florio Cup contest." To others who couldn't remember back to 1900, however, the race the following year-1905-would be the second Florio Cup contest. But, of course, it was really the first." unquote

[*]The trophy "Coppa Vincenzo Florio" made its appearance around November 1904.
[*]The 1900 and 1904 Brescia event, which in their day and on to ours came to be known as the Coppa Florio races simply weren't.
[*]The trophy itself was offered first in 1905, to be competed for in a series of seven annual races...
[*]...the first actual, genuine and verily certain running of the Coppa Florio was September 10th, 1905. ...

[Egon Thurner]

Hello Hans ! Nice to hear from you. Thank you too for your comprehensive contribution.

There is no doubt that you have access to a lot more of excellent sources and that, based on that fact, you obviously know a lot more than me. But even after reading your article there remain a couple of open questions:

But first, what is cleared now?
Hans and Felix, both confirmed my postulated list of races, that counted to the 'Coppa Florio', beginning in 1905 and ending in 1925. (Not regarded at this stage the 'second series', from 1926 - 1929, because that is another story, and has nothing to do with Count Florio)

The 1908 results. I take that, because Hans says '... (Felix) ... have come up with the same correct answer ...'

And what remains open?
First the rules to get the award after seven races. Are they known? Why Georgano states: 'Peugeot and Itala had equal honours and the cup was to go whichever of these marques was in the lead at the end of the forth lap in 1925.' Georgano was no storyteller and I'm sure, that his statement has a real background. I always thought, that only the wins counted. Seven winners seem to have had the 'equal honours' to me.

Second the correct name of the winner in 1905: Raggio (or Reggio). (which sources?)

Third the formulae of the races. I think, in 1905 there had been no restrictions. The 1907-race clearly was for 'Kaiserpreis' - cars, 1908 and 1921 for GP - cars. But what was it in 1914 (no restriction - or GP - cars ?) and in the years 1922 - 1924 ? And then 1925 of course - in the 'race od decision'?

Fourth, how the both 'pre-Coppa' races in 1900 and 1904 had been called by that time? Is 'Coppa Brescia' the true answer and how certain is it?

Fifth open question are the beackgrounds behind the yearly alterations of the 'Brescia-circuit' from 1900 up to 1921.

One might think, my posting is an answer to Hans, but all others are invited to solve the puzzle, too, of course!

And please, always add your sources, what should become a sort of 'state-of-the-art' in this really excellent forum!

BTW, Hans: You have 'Meo Constantini/Bugatti' as winners in the 1925 - Coppa Florio. That's, what really puzzles me! - You will get my ideas on your list within the next days per @mail.

[cjpani]

Men... you all know WAAAAAAAAAY too much!!!!

excelent thread, everybody

Regards,
Carlos Pani

[Felix Muelas]

Whilst we digest all this, an image will put a colour note on the thread...



Felix

[Boniver]

Braunbeck Sport Lexikon from 1910 (Dt)

Targa Florio
1906 6 mei I Targa Florio
1907 21 april II Targa Florio
1908 18 mei III Targa Florio
1908 7 sept IV Targa Florio
1909 2 mei V Targa Florio

Coppa Florio
1905 10 sep I Coppa Florio
1906 7 sep II Coppa Florio
1907 1 sep III Coppa Florio Kaiserpreisformule
1907 2 sep IIIb Coppa Florio – Grand Prix Formule
1908 6 sep IV Coppa Florio

[Hans Etzrodt]

Just glancing over the Braunbeck Sport Lexicon information, I can see wrong dates for the 1906 and 07 Targa.

The 1906 Coppa Florio was the circuit race at Brescia (12 x 61 km = 732 km) for the Florio Cup, planned for 2 September 1906 and had been cancelled during August. Although the Italian Automobil Club and the Brescia community people had tried everything in vain to obtain from War Minister, General Vigano, the Italian troop support to control the circuit. After having gone through another fruitless meeting with Minister President Giolitti, who even discouraged an appeal to the King, a public rally against the War Minister took place in Brescia, which was suppressed with force of arms by police. Thereafter, Cavalliere Florio had applied for an audience with the King. At the same time he had also made plans in case of being unsuccessful, to build a circuit near Palermo to accommodate the Coppa Florio as well as the Targa Florio events. (AUTOMOBIL-REVUE 1906, No.17, pg. 360)

[Ray Bell]

The times of Kings, Princes and the indefatigable Vincenzo Florio!
How the course of history could have been changed!
How sad that the course of history takes so many so long to determine today!
Was there involvement in a war at the time, Hans?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
This has nothing to do with racing but I will clue you in.;)

Italy was at peace, after King Victor Emanuel III of Italy came to reign in 1900. But in September 1911 they were for one year at war with Turkey, when Italy annexed Tripolis.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
...the correct name of the winner in 1905: Raggio (or Reggio). (which sources?)

BTW, Hans: You have 'Meo Constantini/Bugatti' as winners in the 1925 - Coppa Florio. That's, what really puzzles me!...

Here the way the name for Giovanni Batista Raggio appears in various sources:
[*]Raggio ('A Record of Motor Racing' by Gerald Rose)
[*]Giovanni Batista Raggio ('The Great Road Races' pg., 140, by Henry Serrano Villard)
[*]Raggio ('Coppa Florio' in A.Q. Vol.11, No.4, by Cullen Thomas.
[*]G. Battista Raggio ('Road Race' by Chris Jones)
[*]Carlo Raggio (A Record of Grand Prix... by Paul Sheldon)
[*]Carlo Raggio (The Checkered Flag by Ivan Rendall)

The 1925 Coppa Florio was won by Boillot. Sorry about my mistake and thank you for pointing it out.

Corrections:
[*]It's spelled Costanini, with an 's' and it appears correctly in my list.
[*]will correct my list for first name of Raggio.
[*]will correct my list for 1925 Taga Winner to read Costantini.
[*]will correct my list for 1925 Coppa winner to read Boillot.

[Boniver]

Advetising article from MICHELIN of 1908 (Gazet van Antwerpen)


MICHELIN-SIEGE in the Automobil Sport

BRESCIA
Racecourse in north Italy bee Brescia. The way is mountainous.

The course of Brescia in 1906 go from Brescia, Montichiari, Castiglione and back to Brescia
In 1.09.1907 on the same route the Coppa Floria
And on 2.09..1907 the Coppa di Velocita

Vincenzo Florio, rich, great ground owner, Siziliaan, is the patron of the Targa Florio, but he organized also the Coppa Florio over the ways at Brescia, the winner most times to keep the cup.

MICHELIN-SIEGE in the Automobil Sport
Brescia-rennen 1904 1905 1907
Targa Florio 1906 1907 1908
Bologna rennen (Great cars) 1908
Ardennen Rennen 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906
GP de l’ACF 1906 1907 1908
GP of Amerika (Great cars) 1908
Paris Bordeaux 1901
Paris Berlin 1901
Paris Wien 1902
Paris Madrid 1903
Gordon Bennet Rennen 1900 1901 1904 1905
Vanderbilt cup 1904 1906 1908
Kaiserpreis Taunusrennen 1907

MICHELIN PNEUMATIK

[Boniver]

see racing on Sicilian

http://www.geocities...69/indexgbr.htm

[Hans Etzrodt]

Boniver,
Thank you very much for letting us know about this site. It looks very interesting and I will study it at a later date when I find more time.

[ianselva]

I came across this on a Peugeot site
"1925 André Boillot wins the Targa Florio in a valveless Peugeot"
Can anyone enlighten me on the engine details.

Cheers

[VDP]

The winner of the Targa Florio was Costantini with a Bugatti

Boillot was the winner of the Coppa Florio not the same

The Peugeot 174S was a touring derivede car with knight license engine

Robert

Try also this link

http://www.classicca...eevevalvekb.htm