25 replies to this topic

[marion5drsn]

V-10 engine: Does anyone know just where it originated and when? I have tried to find when, where and whom, but have come up with a complete blank every time! M. L. Anderson

V-10 FIRING PATTERN FOR A DODGE AT 90 DEGREES.

B6981CF9D63A_4BB7_ACB9_2CD93DA09320.exe

[Don Capps]

I do recall that several Diesel companies (Detroit pops into my mind immediately) had the V-10 configuration as part of their "build-an-engine" programs. Usually they just put together blocks of 2 or 4 cylinders to make a V-6, V-8, V-12 or even a V-10. I also dimly recall an attempt at a V-10 back in the early years of the last century, but cannot recall much more than that; it might even had been an aero engine since I once did some historical work into US aero engines up to about 1925.

[Ray Bell]

Marion... it's an interesting one, this. I recall reading a long time ago that during a heavy R & D period Henry Ford had a straight 5 built, and that it outperformed all the other engines he was trying.
The period was around 1939-41.
But they couldn't balance it...
Mercedes, I believe, also built a diesel of that configuration, but it may have been a very large one turning over at low revs.
More than that I do not know. In fact, I am shocked that one of your knowledge, experience and reading would ask this question here... just goes to show the path is hard to follow, doesn't it?

[Roger Clark]

In the early 1930s the spanish company Nacional Pescara built a road going 10-cylinder. In the late 30s, Porsche designed but did not build a V-10 engined sports car. It is fully described in Karl Ludvigsen's "Excellence Was Expected"

[fines]

Well, there was a Mercedes-Benz 5-cylinder diesel for road cars, but that was in the seventies, a 3.0 litre IIRC. Later Audi also built one for the 100 and the Quattro. It was said in the late eighties, when Honda built their V10 for F1, that their engineers had had a close look at the Audi straight 5.

[Jaxs]

Most of the major manufacturers have tested most engine configurations from single cylinder rotary valve two strokes, three cylinder two strokes ( SAAB)onwards and upwards. Cadillac and Stutz both ran large multi cylinder V's, the Cadillac may have been a sixteen. Rolls Royce had the reputation of testing virtually all the configuration back in 1920's. Pegaso's (Spain) apprentices used to built various engines to order, complete with optional gearbox ratios depending on use. GM used to buy models from various manufacturers around the world and dismantle them, then sold them through auctions in the Channel Isle. As to who was first with a V10, I would suggest looking at some of the WW2 and before aero engines first. Audi were the first of the modern car manufacturers to use it in petrol engine production. Cummins, the diesel engine specialist were running large multi cylinder V's, Rolls Royce 'Eagle' diesel was also available in various formats, the list goes on and on.

Jack.

[Jaxs]

Don refers to the Detroit diesel, their reputation was buit on the fact that the engine could be built into literally anything. The manifolds could be swopped side to side, the flywheel from end to end, and run on some strange fuel mixes. The application list was primarily industrial rather than automotive.Only coming into automotive at a later stage.

Jack.

[Ray Bell]

I would think the balance problems would have weighed against aero usage pre-war... even until the seventies, the use of computers has changed all that... IMHNSO

[Don Capps]

I spoke with a friend on this and he is sniffing around. Unlike me, he is genuine gearhead. He did remind me that he and I drew up a V-10 during our days in high school for a physics project, but we couldn't figure out how to balance it without any end of problems. It for our GP car we designed for the the 3-litre formula. This was in the 1964/1965 period. He was the techno-nerd and I was the guy who made "A's" in mechanical drawing and art. Keep in mind that we had to do all our caluclations with the Mk 1A stubby pencil, the Mk 2 slap-stick, and books with tables I had no idea how to interpret without Doug's help.

And , yep, it was the Detroit industrial engine that I was thinking about.

I keep thinking that someone in the aero industry tried out a prototype V-10 in either the pre-WW1 period or just after the War and dropped it -- probably due to other configurations being easier to deal with, especially the V-12.

I had forgotten about the Nacional Pescara V-10 which may been our inspiration. We were really into Ken Purdy and the Grande Marques at the time. Hey, Doug even entered the GM Fisher model car competition and was a regional finalist or something. I used my kit to scratch build my sports racer...;)

[marion5drsn]

Edited Jan.-04-2000- . Ray It should come as no surprise that my lack of knowledge of the V-10 as most of my thrust is towards the V-8 engine. Altho it is peculiar that I have never run across it anywhere when researching the Hispano-Suiza. I believe you are correct about the Diesel V-10s. The GM 71 cubic inch series being used in many configurations. Corroborating it is another story. Previously it was my belief that Ford in the early forties was the V-10 forerunner, but no information could I find on this.
All the ten cylinders I did find were radials, a very odd arrangement as most successful radials are of odd cylinder configuration each row. This from Glenn D. Angle’s “Airplane Engine Encyclopedia” 1921.
Just as Henry Ford considered the straight six as an odd number, the V-10 seems to been held as an odd number by most people in the industry.
Doesn’t it seem odd that no one has an immediate handle on this one? . I’d be willing to bet it’s in the net somewhere, but I can’t find it.
. In my search I certainly found out a lot about the Electromotive Division of G .M. and the reasons for their ascendancy to dominate the railway locomotive industry.
Jan.-08-2000: This morning I found the Fairbanks-Morse area and they had lots of information about a lot of Diesel engines of gigantic proportions. Altho there was no information about the origin of the V-10 engine there is a lot of information about diesels in general. They make engines of 6-7-8-9 cylinders inline engines, V-10, V-12, V-14, V-16, V-18. At what appears to be 45 degrees bank angle. Well, so much for that. Detroit diesel was pretty much of a bust, possibly due to fact they have changed hands from GM and so forth. One firm even made a V-20. These engines are of the huge100,000 pounds weight type and turn slowly.
One of the odd facts that the diesel-electric people stress was the fact that the diesel electric switch in the 1930’s saved a lot of money due to the fact that the diesel-electric did not pound the tracks to death with the pounding of the single piston, each side, of the old steam engine. Someone may give this a lot thot tho and throroly apply this thruout to the big bang theory of motorcycles. . M. L. Anderson

[Ray Bell]

Ford thought the six was odd? Or was that a mistype and should have been a five?
I know I read that in an article about Henry, probably in the Australian magazine Wheels in the late sixties or thereabouts.

[karlcars]

My description of the Porsche-designed V-10, the Type 114, was kindly mentioned. I was the first to describe this project. In an interview with Ferry Porsche I asked when they had first considered building a car of their own and he mentioned this 1938-39 project, saying that it was quite unusual for the time -- having a 5-cylinder engine! When I went to the record books I found that it was a V-10! It had the ideal 72-degree bank angle. I'm sure that the Porsche people arrived at the idea quite idependently.

I see that in the book I mentioned that Ford had built experimental in-line 5 and V-10 engines during the 1930s. The idea was much in the air at that time -- though I didn't know about the Nacional Pescara; details please?

Porsche also used the V-10 configuration for its Type 100 tank prototype for the German Army, an air-cooled 15-liter job. The tank required two of these.

Later, when Mercedes introduced its 5-cylinder diesel, the development work on this was done by Porsche. So if we are looking for the authentic roots of the 10-cylinder engine, I think it would be fair to recognise Porsche's role.

[marion5drsn]

Quote; Heldt, “Balance Conditions in a 90-Degree 10 cylinder Engine,” Auto. Ind. April 23, 616 (1927) Unquote.
Note the 1927 date of this publication. M.L. Anderson

[Leif Snellman]

One of the first things I learned about Grand Prix racing in my youth was that there would never be an V10 Formula 1 engine! Only V6, V8, V12 and V16 were conceivable solutions!

[ebe]

In (modern) Formula 1 wasn't it Honda who introduced the V10 ?

[bobbo]

Tech_Nut & ebe:

I don't know which engine was introduced first, Honda or Renault, but they were both in cars foro the first race of the 1989 season, Brazil.

1st: Mansell, Ferrari V12 Qual. 6th
2nd: Prost, Mclaren Honda V10 Qual. 5th
11th: Senna (Mclaren Honda V10), Qual. on pole
DNF: Patrese (Williams Renault V10), Qual. 2nd, F. L.
Out with Alternator trouble
Boutsen (Williams Renault V10). Qual. 4th, out with
engine problem

Bobbo

[marion5drsn]

Recieved a book from Alfa Romeo they also had a V-10 in 1989.
No Bore or stroke listed. Hp claimed was 600 @ 12,000 rpm.
72 degrees bank 4 valves per cylinder. 4 cams. 3500 cubic cm.
Tipo 164 PRO-CAR M. L. Anderson

[marion5drsn]

http://www.mitsubish...tml/t4.htm#T813


http://members.ozema...japan/tt74.htmt

Mitsubishi states they had a truck V-10 in 1972 and a V-10 diesel in 1973?

[Rainer Nyberg]

A few years earlier circa 1970/71 the German specialist manufacturer FAUN built an 8x8 airfield crash tender powered by a Mercedes-Benz V10 diesel.

[AS110]

Yes,the first V10s I ever saw were in Mercedes trucks,in the early 80s,but I don't know when they were first put on the market.I thought it was a very odd configuration,but figured it was probably part of a modular approach,like a Detroit.

[marion5drsn]

The V-10 of MTU-MB 838 90-degree diesel of the Leopard tank is listed back as far as 1969 in the Leopard tank. 2283 cubic inches, 1400 to 1500 Horsepower. And has also has the words Renk applied in one case, meaning unknown.
Friedrichshafen: Motoren- und Turbinen-Union Friedrichshafen GmbH, or MTU for short. (This is the same company as Maybach.)
Type MTU MB 838 Ca-M500, 10-cylinder, 37.4 litre, four-stroke, multi-fuel.
Power 830 hp at 2,200 rpm. Used in German Leopard 1 Tank and other military vehicles..
This engine is now revised to MTU MB 838 10V @ 90 degree 1400HP diesel 6.496"(165mm) x 6.890:(175mm) 2283.5 cubic inches (37.4 Liter)
This means that the Renault case for the invention of the V-10 engine is not valid. They may have been the first to use this configuration in F-1 but to state that Renault Invented the V-10 is not applicable. It is even possible that MTU-MB did not invent it. Which is also possible, as they don’t claim to even be the first to use this configuration of cylinder arrangement. So the mystery continues!
EDIT. A message confirms the engines are much the same. But MTU does not claim to have developed the V-10 engine and did not reveal who did. M.L. Anderson
http://www.mtu-fried...eset/f_prdi.htm

Edit 02-18-2002 After much searching this is what I found out about the Porsche of 1939 ,only three seemed to have been built by V W. It does not state that the car had a V-10 engine but seems to have been adapted to a flat four cyl. The V-10 was designed but the war interferred.

http://translate.goo...e...2B114&hl=en

It comprised a pair of Porsche Type 101/1 engines of V10 configuration, each rated at 320hp. This is from the description of a German Tiger Tank of W W-2. Confirming Karlcars statement of the Porsche's V-10 engine around 1940-45. The two original Porsche Typ 101/1 engines were replaced with proven Maybach HL 120 engines. Some appear to have been converted to the Elephant type antitank AFVs. Not a successful type. Just how many V-10s were produced is not known but it must not have been many as they were replaced by Mayback HL210 P30s or 230,P45s not a very successful engine were the V-10s. But as Karlcars states they made progress in the V-10 and they may have sown the seed for later engineers.

http://www.tiger-tan...re/history2.htm

[karlcars]

Someone is confusing the V-10 Type 114 Porsche project of 1938-39 with the sports-bodied Volkswagen, the Type 60 with the K10 body. This is easy to do as they looked quite similar, but they are two completely different projects.

The V-10 Mercedes truck engine project was a noteworthy one. Rudy Uhlenhaut saw it as one of his most important projects.

Regarding the GM V-10 diesels, bear in mind that these were two-stroke engines. It was much easier to deal with the power impulses of a two-stroke in V-10 format than with the same format with a four-stroke engine.

[marion5drsn]

Karlcars; I’ve been looking thru the net and found what you were talking about with the Porsche engine of 1939 and the Tiger l tank engine also. http://members.tripo...er/vk4502p.html
However nowhere can I find anything about the Ford V-10 experimental engines. But I’m sure you are correct. Have written the FoMoCo to see if they have anything that they will release.
As you have stated the article about the Porsche is not well written and is jumbled, as the writer is obviously out of his league in the English language. Oh well at least he was trying.
Yours, M.L. Anderson

[marion5drsn]

http://members.tripo...er/vk4501p.html

More on the Porsche V-10 of World War II. Have also written to Deutz which seems to be the firm that produced the V-10 engine that Porsche designed for the Tiger tank. Just whether I get an answer or not is in the area of some doubt. M.L. Anderson

[Frank de Jong]

Just read an article in Sport-Auto 5/1988 - about the Alfa Romeo V10.
It ran on the testbench in July 1987, and was originally intended as the next F1 engine (after the stillborn 4 inline Turbo for Ligier).
The engine rules for the (as well) stillborn group S or ProCar were uncertain for some time (1.5 turbo or 3.5 atmospheric, decided March 11, 1988) so Alfa developed both engines. The article expresses Alfa's relief that the development of at least the 72 degree V10 "was not in vain". The engine measured 69,6 x 56,0 x 51,0 (length x width x height) and weigted 145 kg. Over 600 bhp was claimed.

How sad it never saw competition...

[Rainer Nyberg]

The Alfa Romeo V10 mentioned by Frank :