247 replies to this topic

[Jim Thurman]

Yeah, we've heard that before, haven't we. I don't doubt that Maguire "planned" on taking his driver's test, but he was never mentioned in pre-race articles, or on an entry list. Who was that mysterious owner, I wonder - their names are never mentioned in that kind of racing lore, ever wondered why? In any case, he didn't go out and sign Andretti anyway, as the driver who Andretti eventually replaced was injured the same day as Maguire - it was Chuck Hulse, who was entered at Indy, for Al Dean. Oh, and Andretti was no more a rookie than Maguire himself, in fact he had started his big car career a few months earlier in the same series - URC Sprint Cars.

 

I was just getting ready to reply to this when I noticed Michael had taken care of it for me    For some reason, the swap from Chuck Hulse to Mario Andretti gets lost or subverted. Yet, another racing tall tale.

[Jim Thurman]

There was a fellow by the name of Randy "Boo" Tiner who raced sprint cars. I believe he is from California, might still be racing. I remember him from several years back, but he was pretty young then, so might still be around.

 

Yes, the Tiner family have raced super modifieds and sprints for years around the Sacramento area.  I was going to mention Randy, but...thanks for doing so Rob

[kayemod]

Johnny Herbert is pretty badly disabled, but I don't think he's been mentioned. He damaged his legs badly in his Foitek precipitated Brands crash, and made a mostly good recovery, but it's left him with badly disabled feet & ankles. There's a lot of speculation about how good he could have been without the Brands injuries, but although undoubtedly significantly handicapped (you should see the poor guy walk!), he got good results including 3 F1 GP wins before retiring. I admired him at the time, and after reading his auto (?) biography, I've admired him even more.

 

Johnny's foot injuries would have been enough to force retirement in many cases, but Nelson Piquet did OK after shattering both ankles, they're easier to overcome than upper leg ones, which have ended the competitive careers of more than a few, Graham Hill and Jacques Lafitte are two at a high level that come to mind. Without looking it up, the only top driver who seemed largely unaffected after recovering from a badly broken femur was Rudolph Carraciola, though racing in his era was rather different from today's in many ways.

 

Some have mentioned having a short leg as a handicap, but if that was Bruce McLaren's only physical problem, I can't see that bothering him too much in a car, as his results testify. Many other have raced around similar problems, Graham Hill was another. With a properly altered shoe, which oddly some people disabled in this way won't wear, surely Bruce could have walked fairly normally?

 

EDIT. Someone has questioned the two apparently contradictory references to Graham Hill. To explain better to anyone confused, Graham's shortened leg was the result of a motor bike crash long before he raced cars, and it didn't seem to bother him much, as all his GP wins will prove. The disabilities that resulted from his much later Watkins Glen crash were very different, involving shattered knee joints and more. He made a surprisingly good recovery, up to a point, but he was never quite the same driver afterwards. Upper leg injuries again you see, very rarely recovered from 100%.

Edited by kayemod, 10 August 2017 - 10:41.

[LotusElise]

Are there any deaf racing drivers out there?

 

Don't now, but I know a few that don't listen. Does that count? 

 

Rally driver Jayne Auden Row is deaf, I've recently found out.

 

Deafness must have affected at least some of the early F1 drivers during their careers. Very loud engines and no ear protection can cause damage very quickly. I

 

t surprises me how many people I know are hard of hearing or partially deaf. Having good hearing isn't as common as we perhaps think.

[charles r]

David Purley after his Silverstone practice crash...? Had his shortened leg extended via several operations.

[kayemod]

David Purley after his Silverstone practice crash...? Had his shortened leg extended via several operations.

 

A lengthy and painful process, with very significant risks attached. I'd suffered not dissimilar injuries, which robbed me of two inches on one side. My orthopaedic surgeon knew the man who'd operated, he'd told my guy that they'd warned DP of the considerable risks, to no avail, he'd insisted on going ahead. I never met him, but apparently DP wasn't very tall, and it was the prospect of being shorter than his then girlfriend that had made him so determined, and ex-paras aren't allowed to display any weakness. I'd only asked about possibilities, but having the risks explained convinced me not to. As I'm a little over six feet tall, I was offered the chance of having my "good", or at least better leg shortened to even them up, but having been through numerous major surgical procedures, I wasn't keen on inflicting any voluntary major surgery on my recovering frame. If David Purley had had his better leg shortened, he would have had to look up to Bernie Ecclestone.

[charles r]

 

Pre-op.

[bradbury west]

John Whitmore told us once that he lost most of the hearing in his left ear, attributable, he reckoned, to racing a particular Cobra. The fact that it was at almost the point in time at which he had decided to cease racing was of no consolation.
Roger Lund

[BRG]

Rally driver Jayne Auden Row is deaf, I've recently found out.

As a long-time rally naivgator and co-driver, I can confirm that most rally drivers are deaf.

[alansart]

Neil Bray lost an arm in a Stock Car accident and has since gone on to race successfully in saloons.

http://www.classictr...uk/NB.htm#Intro

Neil Bray is till racing Minis and this appeared on YouTube today.

[john aston]

Johnny Herbert is pretty badly disabled, but I don't think he's been mentioned. He damaged his legs badly in his Foitek precipitated Brands crash, and made a mostly good recovery, but it's left him with badly disabled feet & ankles. There's a lot of speculation about how good he could have been without the Brands injuries, but although undoubtedly significantly handicapped (you should see the poor guy walk!), he got good results including 3 F1 GP wins before retiring. I admired him at the time, and after reading his auto (?) biography, I've admired him even more.

 

Johnny's foot injuries would have been enough to force retirement in many cases, but Nelson Piquet did OK after shattering both ankles, they're easier to overcome than upper leg ones, which have ended the competitive careers of more than a few, Graham Hill and Jacques Lafitte are two at a high level that come to mind. Without looking it up, the only top driver who seemed largely unaffected after recovering from a badly broken femur was Rudolph Carraciola, though racing in his era was rather different from today's in many ways.

 

Some have mentioned having a short leg as a handicap, but if that was Bruce McLaren's only physical problem, I can't see that bothering him too much in a car, as his results testify. Many other have raced around similar problems, Graham Hill was another. With a properly altered shoe, which oddly some people disabled in this way won't wear, surely Bruce could have walked fairly normally?

 Unfortunately Johnny claims in his book (which I thought a very poor read and a book in desperate of a sub editor )that he was the only disabled F1 driver . I am sure he thinks he was but as we know , lots of racing drivers , including in F1, have driven despite  serious disabilities 

[sabrejet]

 Unfortunately Johnny claims in his book (which I thought a very poor read and a book in desperate of a sub editor)...

 

Fully agree: bought it as a holiday read in the hope of skipping through the F1 stuff to get to the sportscar, Japan-based racing etc meat and found that he's given it scant mention. Strange too that he often uses phrases such as "we went to a circuit called Road America", as if his reading audience is not going to be au fait with anything outside of bloody F1.

 

I suspect that is the case. So hopefully he still has another book in him - one which is not aimed at Mr (or Mrs) Armchair Enthusiast.

[john aston]

..and which is more than sloppily assembled transcriptions of conversations. His mate Damon has set the recent benchmark .

[Charlieman]

His mate Damon has set the recent benchmark .

Who has enough material for another book when he judges the time to be right.

[Charlieman]

Some have mentioned having a short leg as a handicap, but if that was Bruce McLaren's only physical problem, I can't see that bothering him too much in a car, as his results testify.

Bruce McLaren recovered from Perthes disease as a child and length of legs was probably something he "forgot about" when he had more immediate things to consider. He may not have regarded it is as significant but it might have caused problems for mechanics adjusting pedal boxes etc, especially when he shared a sports car. 

[kayemod]

 Unfortunately Johnny claims in his book (which I thought a very poor read and a book in desperate of a sub editor )that he was the only disabled F1 driver . I am sure he thinks he was but as we know , lots of racing drivers , including in F1, have driven despite  serious disabilities 

 

Not disagreeing with anything you say John, it is a badly assembled collection of transcripted interviews, I doubt if Johnny ever held a pen in his hand in its production, but if you'd spoken to the poor guy you'd understand, he finds it hard to concentrate to the end of a sentence, I wouldn't trust him to write a note to the milkman. With his attention spam, it's a mystery to me how he managed to have a fairly successful racing career, but it's a fact that he did, and on his day, the man was good, no dispute about that. The book is an interesting story not very well told, as you say bad sub-editing with far too many minor factual errors and silly spelling mistakes, but I found it enjoyable, especially the medical and recovery stuff, though undeniably frustrating in parts. Despite the faults, I thought it was a worthwhile read, I certainly didn't regret parting with the money I did (reduced to £0.99 on Amazon) to buy it. Seriously though, far from a great work, but I've read much worse, and I'd still say it was an interesting and thought provoking book, though I'd have felt somewhat cheated if I'd paid anything like the original price for it..

[john aston]

That was the frustration. I admire and like JH hugely and his career really merits something far better  ,  I certainly don't expect  good drivers to be natural writers., and that's where  a good ghost comes in . Amazingly.,  the book was nominated for a sports book prize - mind you, having dug a little more deeply into the subject of book prizes for my own two books I  learned the hard way just how grubby prize competitions can be ....I won't go into detail but I wasn't going to stump up over a grand  to enter , not when that was a significant chunk of royalties .............

[sabrejet]

With his attention spam, it's a mystery to me...

 

I know I mentioned meat (not sure why) but it seems some of us are a bit preoccupied!

 

   

[LotusElise]

Martin Brundle has never described himself as disabled, but he has suffered lower leg injuries. More than once, he has referred to being able to waddle, rather than walk.

[kayemod]

Bruce McLaren recovered from Perthes disease as a child and length of legs was probably something he "forgot about" when he had more immediate things to consider. He may not have regarded it is as significant but it might have caused problems for mechanics adjusting pedal boxes etc, especially when he shared a sports car. 

 

My first outing to Colnbrook was almost a year after Bruce's death, but I've seen a couple of cars he drove, even sat in one of them, and there were no modifications that I could see. I didn't back then, but for 30 something years my right leg has been a couple of inches shorter than the left, achieved as a result of multiple fractures, not disease like Bruce, whose main impediment sounds similar, but if his ankle was OK, I really don't think it would have caused him any trouble at all. In my case, altered shoes have almost taken care of the limp, but with completely standard pedals etc, I've never had any difficulty driving, I can even heel & toe when cars need that. Multiple femoral upper leg fractures never seem to fully recover, in a non-servoed race car, I just couldn't apply sufficient pedal pressure, which is why I suspect drivers like Graham Hill and Jacques Lafitte were never quite the same again after their major crashes. I'm fairly certain that if he'd survived his Monza crash, Ronnie Peterson would never have been as good as before. Johnny Herbert says in his book, that his inability to brake hard enough was his main problem when he drove again, and that was the reason for Benetton "resting" him.

[Vitesse2]

Although he's not 'nostalgia', BBC2 are showing an hour-long documentary about the amazing Billy Monger tonight at 21.00.

[E1pix]

Not disagreeing with anything you say John, it is a badly assembled collection of transcripted interviews, I doubt if Johnny ever held a pen in his hand in its production, but if you'd spoken to the poor guy you'd understand, he finds it hard to concentrate to the end of a sentence, I wouldn't trust him to write a note to the milkman. With his attention spam, it's a mystery to me how he managed to have a fairly successful racing career, but it's a fact that he did, and on his day, the man was good, no dispute about that. The book is an interesting story not very well told, as you say bad sub-editing with far too many minor factual errors and silly spelling mistakes, but I found it enjoyable, especially the medical and recovery stuff, though undeniably frustrating in parts. Despite the faults, I thought it was a worthwhile read, I certainly didn't regret parting with the money I did (reduced to £0.99 on Amazon) to buy it. Seriously though, far from a great work, but I've read much worse, and I'd still say it was an interesting and thought provoking book, though I'd have felt somewhat cheated if I'd paid anything like the original price for it..

This sounds to me like dyslexia, per a father and son in racing I well know, anyone know if Johnny has that?

[Stephen W]

Although he's not 'nostalgia', BBC2 are showing an hour-long documentary about the amazing Billy Monger tonight at 21.00.

 

Watched that last night and some of the hyperbole used in the commentary were factually incorrect.

 

However, young Bill certainly impressed. What a tremendous character and attitude. I suspect he will be thwarted in his goal of reaching F1 but I am sure that he will have a fruitful career in other branches of our sport.

[alansart]

Watched that last night and some of the hyperbole used in the commentary were factually incorrect.

 

However, young Bill certainly impressed. What a tremendous character and attitude. I suspect he will be thwarted in his goal of reaching F1 but I am sure that he will have a fruitful career in other branches of our sport.

 

I've just watched it and have to agree with your comments. An interesting documentary which as you say had a few faults, but what an impressive character young Billy is. With that attitude he'll going a long way in life as well as Motorsport.

[moffspeed]

Agree with everyone re Billy Whizz.  He won't make F1 but I can imagine him being a serious contender in the W.E.C. one day soon.

 

However I think we are muddying the waters here i.e. acquired v congenital. Professional motor racing in the mid 20th Century was synonymous with "handicap"/ "disability" - if you didn't end up with a "Lola limp" (or whichever marque you were representing) you probably weren't trying hard enough. Black Jack was famously deaf as a post but this was Repco/Climax - induced rather than hereditary.

 

So, if we are looking at drivers who were born on the dusty side of the grid, surely Archie Scott Brown wins this championship hands down. Bruce McLaren's Perthes' disease could have been a problem but, like most similarly afflicted kids, he moved into adult life without too much disability. On the Antipodean theme I would nominate the wonderful Joy Rainey who overcame her restricted physical stature to become a serious speed hillclimb contender in the Murrain in particular.

 

Oh, and on the dyslexia theme, J.Y.S. was diagnosed retrospectively with this - not a trendy diagnosis in the 1960's but it must have been enough to "handicap" him when it came to the non-driving activities of being a world champ. Stewart's disability was crudely highlighted by another prominent F1 figure - but history will be kinder to the wee Scot than his critic....

Edited by moffspeed, 20 November 2018 - 21:02.

[E1pix]

Thanks for the segue to Billy Monger, I had no idea about him.

As the husband of a stroke survivor, and her being one who's also achieved remarkable, "impossible" things, Billy has two huge new fans here. Oh, how we wish we were in England to do some PR for him, though I suspect he's getting a ton of help!

Go, Billy, GO!!!

[Lee Nicolle]

I guess this thread covers bike racers as well. Oh so many who have been severely injured. Wayne Rainey the most obvious in recent times.

Though as a speedway fan you could always work out who were sidecar riders and passengers, they limped!!

Though I know several road racers as well, one who has some brain damage, plus the renmants of physical injuries as well, still working but slower mentally than he was, another Isle of Man competitor with about 1 1/2 arms working. But until recently was doing steel fab work and raced cars with distinction. He has retired at just past retirement age!

In reality most ex bike racers have some damage. It will get them as they get older with aches and pains.

Guys like Mick Doohan who is lucky to have his leg does not move that well and will get worse as he gets older.

[F1matt]

Now that Robert Kubica has been confirmed as a Williams F1 driver for 2019 can he be added to the list, I imagine the steering wheel will have to be rearranged so many buttons and paddles are on the left side due to the restrictions in his right arm. Not sure where he stands in the time between GP starts but I am guessing he is up there with Luca Badoer (deputising for Felipe Massa in 2009)

[alansart]

Now that Robert Kubica has been confirmed as a Williams F1 driver for 2019 can he be added to the list, I imagine the steering wheel will have to be rearranged so many buttons and paddles are on the left side due to the restrictions in his right arm. Not sure where he stands in the time between GP starts but I am guessing he is up there with Luca Badoer (deputising for Felipe Massa in 2009)

I think Jan Lammers edges it by a few months over Badoer. Both around 10 years. Kubica last raced in F1 with Renault in 2010.

[Tim Murray]

According to Stats F1 it is indeed Lammers (10y 3m) ahead of Badoer (9y 9m). Kubica will have around 8y 4m between GPs when he takes to the grid in Melbourne, so will slot into fifth place between Pete Lovely and André Pilette:

http://www.statsf1.c...e/gp/ecart.aspx

[F1matt]

I genuinely can't remember Jan Lammers competing for March in 1992, even though it was only for 2 races. Jan has had a cracking career, still going strong. 

[E1pix]

Now that Robert Kubica has been confirmed as a Williams F1 driver for 2019...

Had not heard that, AWESOME!!!!!!!

[Vitesse2]

I genuinely can't remember Jan Lammers competing for March in 1992, even though it was only for 2 races. Jan has had a cracking career, still going strong. 

 

I'm pretty sure Jan would rather forget that episode ...

[Michael Ferner]

I'm pretty sure Jan would rather forget that episode ...

As opposed to his earlier crack at F 1?

[SamoanAttorney]

I genuinely can't remember Jan Lammers competing for March in 1992, even though it was only for 2 races. Jan has had a cracking career, still going strong. 

 

Jan announced his retirement from international competition when he drove at Le Mans this year. Knowing him I suspect he will still be driving flat out in historic events...........

[E1pix]

I found the documentary on Billy Monger.

This is a must-watch, what a story:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=wad6GOVL7Gs

[Vitesse2]

I found the documentary on Billy Monger.

This is a must-watch, what a story:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=wad6GOVL7Gs

Better be quick. BBC will likely have that taken down quite quickly as a copyright violation.

[Vitesse2]

I wasn't wrong ...

[E1pix]

I hate it when you're right. ;-)

Thanks for pointing it out regardless.

[Richard Jenkins]

I'm pretty sure Jan would rather forget that episode ...

 

Anything but; from the interview I did with him in 2006 -  https://www.oldracin...ew/Jan-Lammers/

 

 

RJ: Jan, you made one of the most amazing comebacks when you returned to Formula 1 in 1992. Do you think the career you’ve had subsequently was down to the higher profile that gave you or do you think your career would’ve progressed anyway, without that F1 return?

JL: (with a broad smile as I mention that comeback in 1992) – I think that really.. you know I definitely wanted that drive, and many other drivers could have had it, if they wanted it. But they weren’t keen and I was. So, it became possible to do it, I was so interested and I took the opportunity to do that and give myself a bit more ‘status’ if you like. The other thing was the other cars I was driving at the time, you know, sportscars, at some places, they were even quicker than Formula 1, so I didn’t really see the big change. It was a great opportunity, but I don’t think it would’ve changed much as to what I did later.

[kayemod]

Better be quick. BBC will likely have that taken down quite quickly as a copyright violation.

 

Obviously true as far as YouTube is concerned, but for many UK based fans at least, there is an "official" alternative, BBC I-Player, where it's going to stay available for the next 5 months. This facility may not be accessible for those outside the UK of course, you have to register with the site to obtain a password etc, and I expect they check to make sure you're a fully paid-up BBC licence payer.

[Vitesse2]

Billy Monger will receive the Helen Rollason Award at the BBC Sports Personality of the Year ceremony tonight.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...nality/46558092

[Vitesse2]

Members outside the UK probably aren't aware of the BBC charity appeal Comic Relief - the amazing Billy Monger is currently taking on one of their regular marathon challenges; over the next four days he will be doing a 140-mile triathlon - walking, cycling and kayaking.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...surrey-55996052

 

For those in the UK, the documentary mentioned above is still available on iPlayer.

[Vitesse2]

He made it!

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...d-kent-56213071

[E1pix]

*This* is Heroism.

Wow...

Thanks for letting us know.

[Michael Ferner]

Don't know if already mentioned, but I didn't know until finding it in a newspaper article yesterday that Jaki Scheckter (son of Ian) was "90 %" deaf.

[rl1856]

 

 

EDIT. Someone has questioned the two apparently contradictory references to Graham Hill. To explain better to anyone confused, Graham's shortened leg was the result of a motor bike crash long before he raced cars, and it didn't seem to bother him much, as all his GP wins will prove. The disabilities that resulted from his much later Watkins Glen crash were very different, involving shattered knee joints and more. He made a surprisingly good recovery, up to a point, but he was never quite the same driver afterwards. Upper leg injuries again you see, very rarely recovered from 100%.

 

GH is an interesting case in the context of this thread.    One could argue that he regressed a little during 1969.  If one looks at his qualifying and race results, he was consistently a smidgeon behind both Stewart and Rindt.   Still extremely good, but maybe no longer at the very top ?    Then a career altering accident at Watkins Glenn, and his miraculous recovery to achieve a 6th place point in the 1970 SA GP.   Tip of the hat to his determination.   But look at the rest of his season.   In the abstract, he achieved very little.  But a close examination would point to mitigating factors 1) he was driving what was essentially last years car  2) during 1970 he often matched or exceed his qualifying times of 1969.    His performance was enough to earn a seat at Brabham in 1971, where he did fairly well in 1971, and continued to be very competitive in F2 during the year.   That said, it would have been a perfect cap to his career had he retired after winning Le Mans in 1972.   My opinion then is his decline may have been due to age more than injury.

Edited by rl1856, 02 March 2021 - 14:44.

[Vitesse2]

He made it!

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...d-kent-56213071

BBC showed a one-hour documentary about this earlier in the week. Billy really is an extraordinary person in all sorts of ways and his sheer determination to complete this was inspiring - even for a cynical old bugger like me.

 

So far, his efforts have raised about £2.5 million for Comic Relief.

 

On iPlayer: https://www.bbc.co.u...e-day-challenge