66 replies to this topic

[Tsarwash]

I have heard a lot of talk about F1 being a club for the super rich, with it becoming harder and harder for drivers from normal middle class backgrounds to break through into the elite. Nowadays we have a new wave of pay drivers racing in F1, which I feel is just down to the world economics currently. Many teams are losing some of their bigger sponsors and are having to fill the gap. But personally I do not feel that any of the top drivers have really come from the richer families. I could be ignorant of their backgrounds of course, as it is not sometihng that I tend to look into. Maybe people can post what they know about particular drivers and the extra opportunities that they have been given.

F1 has it's roots in wealthy drivers being backed by families and other means, and this has continued to this day, but I feel that it is becoming easier for determined and talented drivers to get a chance for an F1 drive. I'm not sure how much sponsorship any driver has to bring with them to ensure a drive.

[KateLM]

Tsarwash, on Dec 10 2010, 12:34, said:

I have heard a lot of talk about F1 being a club for the super rich, with it becoming harder and harder for drivers from normal middle class backgrounds to break through into the elite. Nowadays we have a new wave of pay drivers racing in F1, which I feel is just down to the world economics currently. Many teams are losing some of their bigger sponsors and are having to fill the gap. But personally I do not feel that any of the top drivers have really come from the richer families. I could be ignorant of their backgrounds of course, as it is not sometihng that I tend to look into. Maybe people can post what they know about particular drivers and the extra opportunities that they have been given.

F1 has it's roots in wealthy drivers being backed by families and other means, and this has continued to this day, but I feel that it is becoming easier for determined and talented drivers to get a chance for an F1 drive. I'm not sure how much sponsorship any driver has to bring with them to ensure a drive.

You need cash to get on the ladder, so being from a richer family doesn't exactly hurt. But a lot of drivers in F1 come from normal middle class or working class backgrounds so it clearly isn't an exclusively rich kids game, no matter what some might claim.

[TURU]

No, F1 is not a club for the rich. You can get there without having a generous uncle, if you are good enough and I mean GOOD ENOUGH. Look at Hamilton, Kubica, Vettel, Alonso, Schumacher - they all come from so called 'middle class' background.

[Captain Tightpants]

While there are indeed pay drivers, the system of superlicences and feeder series means that anyone paying for a drive needs to have at least some talent before they are in a position to buy a seat.

[Beyond]

maybe a little more than in the past

[Ross Stonefeld]

Not F1 specifically, because it's one of the best series for taking talent rather than money(compare it to other series). However, the talent is has to choose from is really open to the wealthy, and the wealth required grows every year.

[One]

Poor can not buy a car to race, however that does not exclude 'normal' family...

[rhukkas]

On the cheap you can do

5 Years in Top Flight Karting = £500,000
2 Years in Formula Renault = £500,000
Year in GP3 = £600,000
2 Years in GP2 = £4,000,000
F1 Drive = £5,000,000 (as quoted by Anthony Davidson)

If you aim for F1 then you need to be exceedingly wealthy nowadays. Much more than in recent years. Not many people on this planet actually race in those above series. I would say around 1000 drivers or so who have that opportunity. THAT'S the talent pool for the entire planet - JUST a thousand or two.

Edited by rhukkas, 10 December 2010 - 13:06.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's far less than that. If you look at the Castrol Rankings site there's only about 2,250 'professional' racing drivers, and about 7% of those are just in the NASCAR championships...

[highdownforce]

One, on Dec 10 2010, 10:55, said:

Poor can not buy a car to race, however that does not exclude 'normal' family...

But that is something that varies from country to country.

[Hairpin]

It takes a lot of money, or extreme luck, to get yourself on the F1 radar. If, when you appear on that radar, you are better than 90% of the others on that radar, then you might get a drive without bringing cash. I guess there is no way to change that. Unless each country agrees to start a championship series with, say F3 & F2 cars, where all the cost for machinery and maintenance is payed by the state and the drivers get's their chance from karting efforts. Will not happen anytime soon

[rhukkas]

Hairpin, on Dec 10 2010, 13:38, said:

It takes a lot of money, or extreme luck, to get yourself on the F1 radar. If, when you appear on that radar, you are better than 90% of the others on that radar, then you might get a drive without bringing cash. I guess there is no way to change that. Unless each country agrees to start a championship series with, say F3 & F2 cars, where all the cost for machinery and maintenance is payed by the state and the drivers get's their chance from karting efforts. Will not happen anytime soon

The state wouldn't be paying... the PUBLIC would pay! Let's hope it NEVER happens!

Edited by rhukkas, 10 December 2010 - 13:40.

[flyer121]

rhukkas, on Dec 10 2010, 13:40, said:

The state wouldn't be paying... the PUBLIC would pay! Let's hope it NEVER happens!

Yes , State or the public. Same thing.
But why should state not sponsor motorsport talent . if they spend millions on olympic sports which no one watches anyway.

Most National Sport authorities receive massive funding from the government.
Is it too hard to create a proper karting race track with 50 odd karts in 1-2 major cities and allow young kids to book and run them just by paying running costs?

[Ross Stonefeld]

We pay for everything everywhere. Whether publically or privately funded.

[Hairpin]

rhukkas, on Dec 10 2010, 14:40, said:

The state wouldn't be paying... the PUBLIC would pay! Let's hope it NEVER happens!

State or daddy. Poor daddy poor son.

[george1981]

I think what's changed recently is that better teams are now taking on pay drivers. Williams have been slipping down the ranks these last few years, but I'm still shocked they took on a pay driver.
I remember when Diniz started driving for Sauber and a lot of people were saying how he'd taken a step up and was no longer a pay driver as he was driving for a decent team that didn't usually take pay drivers, whereas I thought that Sauber had taken a step down by hiring a pay driver.

[Captain Cranckcase]

TURU, on Dec 10 2010, 12:39, said:

No, F1 is not a club for the rich. You can get there without having a generous uncle, if you are good enough and I mean GOOD ENOUGH. Look at Hamilton, Kubica, Vettel, Alonso, Schumacher - they all come from so called 'middle class' background.

Isn't Hamilton's dad a self made millionaire? The last average sort of bloke to get to f1 was Mansell and he had to sell everything he had to make it.

However it's always been a sport for the rich. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it, I can just never participate in it (bar odd karting days) unlike almost every other sport I follow.

Edited by Captain Cranckcase, 10 December 2010 - 14:10.

[Ross Stonefeld]

And even that story is a little suspect. How many pre-F1 drivers actually own houses to mortgage to fund their racing?

[Cenotaph]

i think motorsports in general are and have always been pretty expensive. f1 is only even more expensive

[Tsarwash]

I think that Jensen went to pretty ordinary schools, a standard comprehensive and a CoE middle school. Of course his dad is a massive racing enthusiast, and an ex driver, but they don't strike me as particulary rich. Jensen is well known in Frome and was not known for being aloof while he lived there. He had more opportunities than other people but I'm not sure if that is due to his family's wealth.

[TURU]

Captain Cranckcase, on Dec 10 2010, 15:09, said:

Isn't Hamilton's dad a self made millionaire? The last average sort of bloke to get to f1 was Mansell and he had to sell everything he had to make it.

However it's always been a sport for the rich. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it, I can just never participate in it (bar odd karting days) unlike almost every other sport I follow.

You are very, very wrong. Just do some digging, it doesn't hurt.

[rhukkas]

flyer121, on Dec 10 2010, 13:54, said:

Yes , State or the public. Same thing.
But why should state not sponsor motorsport talent . if they spend millions on olympic sports which no one watches anyway.

Why should people, who earn £15,000 (of which about 40-50% ends up in the tax man's coffers directly or indirectly) a year pay for some kid to race motorcars? What's planet are you on? Seriously, what planet?

So you think people should be taxed, that means they can't send their OWN money on something THEY want, so SOMEONE ELSE can go race toy cars?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well as someone said, why should the Olympics be subsidised? Or the arts? Or university students?

Not that I think they should be, but they are.

[jjcale]

rhukkas, on Dec 10 2010, 14:33, said:

Why should people, who earn £15,000 (of which about 40-50% ends up in the tax man's coffers directly or indirectly) a year pay for some kid to race motorcars? What's planet are you on? Seriously, what planet?
So you think people should be taxed, that means they can't send their OWN money on something THEY want, so SOMEONE ELSE can go race toy cars?

How much does it cost the people in this country to win medals at the olympics? ... and did anyone ask you if you wanted to chip in? .... and when the "heros" come back and are then hot commercial properties, how much of their ad/sponsorship money do they pay back into the pot??

If the leader of a country wants to piss his people's money away on F1, why is that any worse than any other scheme that the money could be pissed away on?

[Mauseri]

Obviously motorsport is not for the poor. You need above average rich parents, and even then some sponsors need to come into play sooner or later. Millionaires can do motorsport even without sponsors, but usually they do not succeed, because they don't need to go trough the same elimination.

[DriveFastLiveSlow]

Yes it is. And it is not only money.

It's also family name and connection. In no other sport there are as many children of ex-champs competing on the highest level. Hill, Piquet, Rosberg, Villeneuve, Andretti etc. This doesn't happen in tennis, boxing etc.

[flyer121]

rhukkas, on Dec 10 2010, 14:33, said:

Why should people, who earn £15,000 (of which about 40-50% ends up in the tax man's coffers directly or indirectly) a year pay for some kid to race motorcars? What's planet are you on? Seriously, what planet?

So you think people should be taxed, that means they can't send their OWN money on something THEY want, so SOMEONE ELSE can go race toy cars?

See , I am not advocating increasing taxes just for promoting motor-sports.

Everybody hates taxes , but we are already paying for a lot of stuff we dont appreciate, enjoy or even know about.

The unique problem with motorsports is that we do not even see half of the talent just because it is so bloody expensive.

If not directly thru taxes , make a legislation where FOM has to contribute x% of its profits to the country's motorsports fund if they want a GP there.
UK already has three GP standard circuits - Open them to schools and Unis for finding new talent. I dont even think that much extra money will be required.

The current system where private money (in loads ) is required to even figure out whether you are worth it - is simply ridiculous.

[DriveFastLiveSlow]

Why not introduce more series with identical cars? Very cost efficient way to make the sport more available to the masses. Even have a lottery of the vehicles before each competition, so there's no way to have better equipment. Low level motorsport does not contribute to technical matters, so let the drivers be the only thing making a difference.

[jee]

DriveFastLiveSlow, on Dec 10 2010, 17:42, said:

Why not introduce more series with identical cars?

What series would you make a "on make" series of? F1 should not and all the higher GT and touring car series are playground for manufacturers. The lower series are very affordable.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Define affordable. F3 is much 'cheaper' than F1, but next to impossible to raise sponsorship for. I'm more likely as a driver to get a budget to go to Hispania than I am to the best team in British F3.

[jee]

I meant touring and GT cars with that, I would exclude F3 from this because they have not identical cars and are very costly compared to combarable classes like F2.

[DriveFastLiveSlow]

All junior, national level competition should be as affordable as possible. Let the cream rise to the top.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Once they are in F1, all the drivers are rich beyond my wildest imagination.

They're either rich to get into F1, or once they're in F1, they're real hotshoes and become incredibly rich.

There's no one that's IN F1 currently that isn't ungodly rich.

Driving an F1 car in a real points paying F1 race, even an HRT, is a very high privilege.

Therefore, yes, F1 is a club for rich and privileged drivers.

[maximilian]

There is NO doubt that it's YES. In the past, a bunch of enthusiastic privateers could get together, scrape up some funds, buy a year-old March/Shadow/Arrows and try their luck at qualifying for their local GP... often times with surprisingly good results (and inevitable failures as well). These days? Not even close!

[rhukkas]

OfficeLinebacker, on Dec 10 2010, 17:20, said:

Once they are in F1, all the drivers are rich beyond my wildest imagination.

They're either rich to get into F1, or once they're in F1, they're real hotshoes and become incredibly rich.

There's no one that's IN F1 currently that isn't ungodly rich.

Driving an F1 car in a real points paying F1 race, even an HRT, is a very high privilege.

Therefore, yes, F1 is a club for rich and privileged drivers.

haha.... that's just not true.

[Lee Nicolle]

I would suggest you will find several drivers of modest means in F1. But have had enough talent and promotion to attract rich backers. That is true for both Jenson and Mark Webber and probably others too. Without the luck of decent backers there has been plenty of talent go by the wayside in most countries.And I am sure that given the opportunity there is a 100 better drivers out there than the current crop. And that is not saying any of them are bad.

[Crafty]

Captain Cranckcase, on Dec 10 2010, 14:09, said:

Isn't Hamilton's dad a self made millionaire? The last average sort of bloke to get to f1 was Mansell and he had to sell everything he had to make it.

However it's always been a sport for the rich. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it, I can just never participate in it (bar odd karting days) unlike almost every other sport I follow.

Off the back of lewis succeeding I think you'll find.

He's getting more involved in sports management : http://www.crash.net...nt_venture.html

[SimMaker]

I once heard someone say "There are no rags to riches stories in F1"

Is it true?

[Gyan]

SimMaker, on Dec 11 2010, 17:02, said:

I once heard someone say "There are no rags to riches stories in F1"

Is it true?

Yes.

This isn't football, where you just pick up a ball and kick it about and hone your skills doing that and reach the top.

In motorsport you need money, contacts, talent and luck. In that order

[byronbolscher]

Gyan, on Dec 11 2010, 13:15, said:

Yes.

This isn't football, where you just pick up a ball and kick it about and hone your skills doing that and reach the top.

In motorsport you need money, contacts, talent and luck. In that order

Kimi's family was quite poor, but then imo Kimi was extremely lucky if you look at his route to F1. Kubica was helped massively by Renault, Lewis by Mclaren, Vettel by BMW/Red Bull, the likes of Rosberg by daddy, Senna by his name, and you can go on like that for quite a while.

[se7en_24]

SimMaker, on Dec 11 2010, 11:32, said:

I once heard someone say "There are no rags to riches stories in F1"

Is it true?

What about Damon Hill?

[Tsarwash]

Jimmy Clark ?

[KR571]

jjcale, on Dec 10 2010, 15:41, said:

How much does it cost the people in this country to win medals at the olympics? ... and did anyone ask you if you wanted to chip in? .... and when the "heros" come back and are then hot commercial properties, how much of their ad/sponsorship money do they pay back into the pot??

If the leader of a country wants to piss his people's money away on F1, why is that any worse than any other scheme that the money could be pissed away on?

the thing is other sports require less amount of resources and/or in small installments. so the so called leaders can go about pissing and hide it. where as something like f1 requires, well... substantial amount to go on. this amount will be difficult for leaders to hide. otherwise do u really think that the so called leaders didn't see f1 as an opportunity to rob people?

[Dan333SP]

Yes, it is. If it wasn't, I'd have been winning world championships for the last several years now...

[rhukkas]

se7en_24, on Dec 11 2010, 12:37, said:

What about Damon Hill?

Damon was the son of a legendary F1 driver and WDC. He did achieve something great, but in a world where it's so much about 'who you know' I don't think Damon could be a 'rags to riches' story... no where near.

[Yorkie]

Captain Cranckcase, on Dec 10 2010, 14:09, said:

Isn't Hamilton's dad a self made millionaire? The last average sort of bloke to get to f1 was Mansell and he had to sell everything he had to make it.

However it's always been a sport for the rich. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching it, I can just never participate in it (bar odd karting days) unlike almost every other sport I follow.

If he was a millionaire they wouldnt have had to tout McLaren for sponsorship plus he worked for the nationalised company British Rail, by that rate the tea ladies must have been on £100,000 pa lol

SimMaker, on Dec 11 2010, 11:32, said:

I once heard someone say "There are no rags to riches stories in F1"

Is it true?

Does working class count?

[OfficeLinebacker]

rhukkas, on Dec 10 2010, 20:21, said:

haha.... that's just not true.

Which part? You don't think driving an F1 car in competition isn't a high privilege?

You think that there is an actual F1 driver (or has been in the past ten years) that is not in the top 1% of people on Earth in terms of income and/or wealth?

[Bloggsworth]

It was ever thus...

[KateLM]

OfficeLinebacker, on Dec 11 2010, 17:42, said:

Which part? You don't think driving an F1 car in competition isn't a high privilege?

You think that there is an actual F1 driver (or has been in the past ten years) that is not in the top 1% of people on Earth in terms of income and/or wealth?

Yeah, probably.

I can't imagine that Sauber, Toro Rosso or Force India for instance are paying their drivers that much.

[Fastcake]

KateLM, on Dec 11 2010, 17:47, said:

Yeah, probably.

I can't imagine that Sauber, Toro Rosso or Force India for instance are paying their drivers that much.

Indeed. Most of the lower drivers are meant to be "only" on a million or two, with the backmarkers on less paid by their sponsors. There are far more company executives and the like on higher incomes than that.

Edited by Fastcake, 11 December 2010 - 19:01.