27 replies to this topic

[magic]

why?

[Accipiter]

Indy 500 fixation.

He had an offer to drive for BRM at one point but turned it down.

[Dave Ware]

You're talking about a guy who went to France for Le Mans, ordered fish in a restuarant, and sent it back to the kitchen because it still had the head on it.

A.J. was and is 1000% American.

How many Le Mans winners have wanted to win Indy as much as they've wanted to win Le Mans. Not that many, I expect. If you're a European, Le Mans is the big race. If you're American, it's Indy.

Dave

[Joe Fan]

In A.J.'s own words from Tim Considine's outstanding book, American Grand Prix Racing, "I never cared about goin' Formula One racin' cause I was runnin' the sprints and the midgets and stock cars and everything here. And I always felt that the American people is what made A.J. Foyt, and I just wanted to race here. I was approached by a good team and offered big money, but I just blowed 'em off. Just forgot about it. Over there, you're like number one, two, three. So, say the number one driver is off a little bit, the number two driver, well, the way it used to be, you'd run second, regardless. And that to me isn't racin.' That's kind of barnstorm racin.' And I don't believe in it. And like I said, my name was made here and the American people is what made A.J. Foyt.

[AyePirate]

He was 3 sec. a lap slower than co-driver
Dan Gurney at LeMans.

1000% American? nah, just too damn slow
I'm a Texan, but AJ's b.s. never worked
for me.

Viva Dan Gurney!

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by AyePirate
He was 3 sec. a lap slower than co-driver
Dan Gurney at LeMans.

1000% American? nah, just too damn slow
I'm a Texan, but AJ's b.s. never worked
for me.

Viva Dan Gurney!

Actually, from what I have heard, A.J. was as fast as Gurney and Carroll Shelby wanted it to stay that way. Carroll wasn't very happy to land A.J. at that point in his career. He thought it was a mistake because A.J. was a big star and he felt that he wanted to prove himself to the world. However, that is who Ford gave him. Carroll commended Dan for his patience by not getting into a "who is fastest battle?" with A.J. Because in order to finish first, one must first finish especially in a 24 hour race. Shelby felt that was one of Dan's better driving efforts by displaying self-control.

[Accipiter]

This is getting into a completely different topic now, but the reason Foyt ran the same pace as Gurney is because of a philosophy Gurney had decided to use after killing his cars going flat out every year. He planned to run a set pace throughout the race and convinced A.J. to go along with it. There is a great article by Dan in the June '97 Road & Track in which he describes the race.

Maybe I'll post some quotes later if I can find it.

[Accipiter]

What do you knw. I posted the quotes on another forum last year and they were still in the archives.

This was my 10th appearance at Le Mans; I had been on pole at Le Mans in 1966, and I had led the race many times, but never won. It dawned on me that on several occasions Briggs Cuningham was among the people I had competed against. Briggs, whose tenacity I always admired, was past his prime and yet his measured approach to that race was such that he finished ahead of me most of the time. Eventually you say to yourself, "What's this trying to tell me?" So I was bound and determined to treat Le Mans more like Briggs would, not a sprint race, but an endurance contest.

It's very difficult for race drivers, particularly two who are actively involved in Formula 1 and Indy-car racing, to modify driving styles and dial back. Don't Forget, A.J. had won the Indy 500 just 10 days before Le Mans, and I would have my All-American Racers Eagle victory at Spa the weekend after Le Mans. There are those who would have argued that A.J. and I were the least likely pair to do so, and it has often been speculated that we were matched up because they thought there was no way we could keep the car together for the full 24 hours. They didn't know about the Briggs Cunningham factor.

Brakes are a good example of how I changed my driving style for Le Mans in 1967. If you thought about the Mark IV and determined that you weren't going to overrev the engine or go off the road, what might let the car down? The brakes. This was a reletivly heavy car -- Some 2600 lb. in race trim, while the Ferrari 330P4 was just under 2000 lb. The Ford went over 210 mph on the Mulsanne straightaway and then had to slow down to 55 for the Mulsanne turn. The straight has a kink and then a rise before you drive down to the cornor. I figured, all right, I'm going to back off 300 yards early on the straight, before the rise, and not touch the brakes until the aero drag knocks about 40-50 mph off the top speed. I just let the car float over the rise and on down toward the turn, and then put on the brakes and downshifted later. It was a very smooth way of getting into and around that slow corner, and although it didn't give you a particulary good lap time, it was how I did it.

I don't mean to imply that we were loafing around the track, as there were many sections on which you could very quickly with minimal strain on the car. But the point was to preserve the Mk IV, and the Mulsanne turn was the best example of our conservation efforts.

I had already begun explaingin to A.J. that "this isn't a race." I told him about Briggs beating me and all that sort of thing. All of this would have been hollow if he had gotten in the car and found I was pulling his leg, that I'd been driving the wheels off it, and he was going to have to work at driving that fast. That would have been curtains for the car. When A.J. finally got in and drove the car, he found his lap times were right there with mine, and he got enthusiastic. I think he figured, hey, Dan's being honest.

Very simply, back then you couldn't race the cars all-out in long-distance event or you'd destroy them...brakes, gearbox, engine. The first drivers I saw race hard for 24 hours were Pedro Rodriguez and Jo Siffert at Daytona in Porsche 917s, and they drove for the entire race as though they were qualifying. That was a revelation.

[Dave Ware]

>>I always felt that the American people is what made A.J. Foyt,

This is vintage A.J. I read, I think in his biography, that after winning the National Championship he continuted to run every little midget race he could fit into his schedule because the fans deserved to see the Champion.

Rick Mears turned down a Brabham offer simply because he didn't want to leave the States. I'm sure such a thing was the case w/ Foyt, at least in part.

D.

[Don Capps]

While it might come as a shock to many on this Forum -- and would definitely create a firestorm on another forum (I will refrain from mentioning the Readers' Comments Forum by name) -- not everyone considers Formula 1/FEM (formerly known as Grand Prix) racing as the sole purpose for driving race cars. Foyt did a masterful job at Le Mans with Gurney because Gurney was straight with him.

Keep in mind that Foyt considered the National Championship as his focus. His also drove sprints, midgets, and sports cars. Like Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Petty, Stewart, Earnhardt and others at that end of the spectrum, he also knew his worth.

Keep in mind that Foyt was an excellent road racer. His performances in sports cars is pretty impressive. His performance in the Mecom-entered Scarab in the Fall Pro Series of 1963 and his performances on the road circuits later shows he definitely had what it took to be successful had he decided to do to Europe and enter the GP fray in earnest. Besides, the prospect of Foyt living in Europe in those days is just too mind-boggling to comprehend.

Off Topic, Slightly: I have always rated Foyt very highly. I also think that he shows just how much we miss the mark when we restrict the consideration of "best" or "greatest" or whatever to just F1 or GP drivers. I will not mention that that restriction also tends to make the list very Euro-centric and often excludes those from the earlier decades of the last century. Naturally, this forum is one of the few to be more open-minded about such things.;)

[Joe Fan]

Don, well said. In my book, A.J. is one of top five drivers of all-time. At times, he may have been a jerk and at one time, his ego may have been as big as Texas but his balls, heart and right foot were bigger. He could drive the wheels off anything.

[Ray Bell]

I would think that the lure of winning another Indy would be a pretty big one. After all, in F1 he would be just another top-line (perhaps) driver, but at Indy he could get the best cars and might take another win, might be the all-time multiple winner.

[Eric Sauerwein]

Technically actually,he did compete in F1 (from FORIX):

Seq. Year G. Prix Nº Car / Engine Grid Race F.Lap
1 1958 Indianapolis 29 Kuzma/Offenhauser 12 Spun off -
2 1959 Indianapolis 10 Kuzma/Offenhauser 17 10 -
3 1960 Indianapolis 5 Kurtis Kraft/Offenhauser 16 Clutch -

no points, but hey, he got credit for racing in F1 though !

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Eric Sauerwein
Technically actually,he did compete in F1 (from FORIX):

World championship races, but not Formula 1.

[Don Capps]

Roger,

Yes, but that also makes Bill Vukovich a legitimate GP/F1 winner then since (barring the odd Novi or Diesel) Indy was run to the 4.5-litre formula. Okay, its a stretch, but not much of one. IIRC there was an Autosport article on the possiblility of Kurtis modifying at least several of their cars for customers who wanted to campaign in Europe.

However, Foyt did compete in WDC events even if they weren't F1. It is a wonder that racing ever survived the CSI! I think Ecclestone was just a few decades too late at times!

BTW, Roger, that is what sprang into my mind as well!;)

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Roger,

Yes, but that also makes Bill Vukovich a legitimate GP/F1 winner then

F1 but not GP?

can you remember roughly when the Autosport speculation appeared?

[Joe Fan]

What about Foyt's participation in the 1958 "Race of Two Worlds" at Monza? He jumped into a car (which wasn't top line) that Maurice Trintingant had driven in the first heat and performed quite well in it, epsecially Heat 3 where he was in the top four for awhile. This was before A.J. became famous and early on in his career.

[fines]

I am quite possibly the biggest AJ fan he ever had in Germany and would have loved to see him race in GPs! Sadly, however, it went the way most AAA/USAC/CART stars experienced when confronted with opportunities in Europe: Like Johnnie Parsons said in 1952, he was expected to be Nr. 2 driver to Alberto Ascari and could not envisage that. What did he expect?

In truth, it makes me all the more attracted to drivers like Mario and Michael Andretti, Alex Zanardi and Juan Montoya. Even if I can understand the objections Parsons, Sachs, Bettenhausen and Foyt harboured, they should've given it a try!

[Don Capps]

Roger, I am thinking it was early 1951 that it appeared.

As for the "GP" and/or/versus "F1" question, I have to fall back to when I was growing up: I am a "Grand Prix" guy, even when the events aren't for the European -- oops! -- World Championship.

[Barry Boor]

Why didn't A.J. try F1?

Too many right turns!

He may well have been as quick as Dan at Le Mans, but he wouldn't have got near Dan, or any other top line Grand Prix driver on European road circuits.

A.J. will always be one of the greats of oval racing. I think he would have devalued his position had he tried his luck in Europe, and I suspect he probably knew it.

Some guy called Michael tried it a while back........

[Joe Fan]

Right turns weren't A.J.'s problem it is just that the left turns paid so much more in the U.S. during his prime years. During the 60's, it was reported that an Indy 500 win would pay a driver more than a full season of F1 racing. When A.J. was coming up, road racing in the U.S. was more or less an amateur type of racing. A.J. had the talent to adapt and be competitive in anything. It is just that it wouldn't have made economical sense for him to do what Mario did and A.J. didn't grow up in Europe dreaming about being a Grand Prix driver either.

In addition to his 1967 Le Mans win, he also won the Daytona 24 Hours twice (1983 and 1985) as well as the Sebring 12 Hours in 1985, Mosport Park and Silverstone in IndyCars in the late 70's.

I view A.J. as being the best oval track driver of all-time and one of the top five drivers of all-time. He proved more on road circuits than Fangio did on ovals so why should he be downgraded in light of everything mentioned above just because he didn't prove it in F1. Some of the top F1 drivers weren't great oval track racers so world class talent is subjective.[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 01-07-2001]

[C F Eick]

Although I don't agree 100%(but probably 95%) with your opinions Joe Fan/Michael, I find your post very nice indeed. Good job!

[David M. Kane]

The only guy who has been to Europe fewer times than is GW Bush!

AJ is very, very provincal even by American standards. He
would have adapted to Europe even less well than Michael
Andretti. He is an extremely blue collar guy who likes the simple life. Besides, he couldn't even get along with the
"uppity" CART guys, he certainly wasn't about to hang with
Euros. He also lacks "dipomatic" skills.

[Don Capps]

That's our A.J.! I can't imagine 'Your Nige' taking after Patrick Head with a hammer as A.J. did with George Bignotti a few times -- much less Head doing like Bignotti did and duking it out. With A.J. around Life was never boring -- more exciting than you wanted perhaps, but never dull.

Besides, what is wrong with A.J. being what he is -- A.J. Foyt, All-American? Perhaps a much more narrow view of the world than I subscribe to, but one I think I can understand in the context of his Life & TImes.

[Barry Boor]

Nothing whatsoever, Don. And that's exactly the point! We wouldn't want all our heroes to be the same, would we?

[Don Capps]

BINGO! Full points to Barry!

[Joe Fan]

David, I think you hit one of the reasons why A.J. never desired to race extensively in Europe--because he was a blue collar type that liked things simple. Not only was A.J. blue collar but he was really just a big old country boy at that. A.J. raced part-time in NASCAR for quite a few years and redneck Nascar fans claim him as one of their own. I really that A.J. could have adapted and excelled in any type of racing because he was that good but I agree that he probably wouldn't have adapted well to the European lifestyle.

I am not sure that I wouldn't have done the same thing as A.J. if I were in his shoes. I don't think there were too many things that made Formula One racing more attractive to him at that time. There were certainly politics in the sport that didn't necessarily bode well for making IndyCar stars look good. Racing over in Europe also took you off radar map in the grand scheme of things and why lose or make the same amount of money racing abroad where you would suffer the mushroom syndrome. Like I said, I don't think I would have done anything differently than what A.J. did and this is one of the reasons why I admired the career of my hometown hero Masten Gregory. He would have made a great IndyCar driver I am sure but he chose to be a road racer for the love of road racing, obviously not for the paychecks. BTW, thanks for the email about my site.

[SteveB2]

Autoweek had an article in July on the GT40 that Gurney/Foyt used to win the race and they quote Foyt as saying, "I would put winning at Lemans with any of my Indy 500s". I thought it was out of character given his Indy-above-all-else attitude. He goes on to say he was doing it so Mr. Ford could beat Mr. Ferrari and speaks very glowingly of Dan.


It seems I mentioned this before during the infamous GT40 thread. It's embarrassing that I post so rarely here and then I go and repeat myself.