301 replies to this topic

[Bloggsworth]

Windscreens are the latest proposal to raise its head. This will of course mean no racing in the rain.... unless the cars have wipers, and presumably a team of itinerants by the lights at the end of the pit lane, ready to leap out and clear the bugs off after a tyre change....

[Andy865]

Any sort of source? And they already have (very) small windscreens

[undersquare]

Windscreens are the latest proposal to raise its head. This will of course mean no racing in the rain.... unless the cars have wipers, and presumably a team of itinerants by the lights at the end of the pit lane, ready to leap out and clear the bugs off after a tyre change....

But seriously, we saw another tyre bouncing across the track in Germany, from Liuzzi's car, and Glock just missing it. On top of Massa of course and Henry Surtees.

So I don't think these ideas should be dismissed out of hand.

[MasterM]

Autosprint`s photoshopped image of windscreen
http://www.auto.it/i...agine_fullw.jpg

[biercemountain]

Autosprint`s photoshopped image of windscreen
http://www.auto.it/i...agine_fullw.jpg

Might have deflected the spring that hit Massa, but dubious in its stopping power against a stay wheel.

[Amphicar]

Been done before - albeit in Formula 2. This is the Protos designed by Mike Costin (the Cos bit in Cosworth) in 1967

[Greem]

Anything which is designed to withstand the air pressure generated by driving at 200mph without shattering into tiny bits is going to have to have some inherent strength, especially when you combine that with small pieces of debris like gravel pinging off it. It would probably break if a wheel hit it, but that would take some energy from the impact and simultaneously prolong the impact, which lessens the physical shock.

That said, something which partially covers the cockpit is going to be a serious impediment to extraction (in the case of an unconscious driver) or them getting out in a rush (in the case of a fire, or stoppage in dangerous territory). That's not too good.

Hrm... thinking aloud, have we just seen Audi design an F1 car by stealth?

[undersquare]

Schumi's collision with Liuzzi in Abu Dhabi, is another one.

[Amphicar]

Been done before - albeit in Formula 2. This is the Protos designed by Mike Costin (the Cos bit in Cosworth) in 1967

Here's another shot of the Protos, which took part in the 1967 German Grand Prix, driven by Kurt Ahrens and Brian Hart.
The Protos was also unusual in having a monocoque constructed from plywood!

[EdwardCullen]

A windscreen like this will be so awesome

[Bloggsworth]

Notice that in the Protos they had to cut a slot in the screen so that the driver would have an undistorted view. IIRC Jack Brabham tried it at Rheims on his Cooper, it didn't work then either.

If it was a practical proposition, it would be in use already.

[Mauseri]

Windscreens are the latest proposal to raise its head. This will of course mean no racing in the rain.... unless the cars have wipers, and presumably a team of itinerants by the lights at the end of the pit lane, ready to leap out and clear the bugs off after a tyre change....

Why would they need wipers, if they dont need it in visor either

[Clatter]

Anything which is designed to withstand the air pressure generated by driving at 200mph without shattering into tiny bits is going to have to have some inherent strength, especially when you combine that with small pieces of debris like gravel pinging off it. It would probably break if a wheel hit it, but that would take some energy from the impact and simultaneously prolong the impact, which lessens the physical shock.

That said, something which partially covers the cockpit is going to be a serious impediment to extraction (in the case of an unconscious driver) or them getting out in a rush (in the case of a fire, or stoppage in dangerous territory). That's not too good.

Hrm... thinking aloud, have we just seen Audi design an F1 car by stealth?

The screen would be streamlined and the pressure not that great. A thin piece of plexiglass could easily do the job. Wouldn't be much use as protection though.

[Clatter]

Why would they need wipers, if they dont need it in visor either

Because a windscreen would be in the airflow where as the airflow is directed over the driver.

[undersquare]

If it was a practical proposition, it would be in use already.

More like if they had to, they would, I'd say.

Sportscars solve all the problems, no reason why F1 couldn't.

F1 wipers? Why not? Let's see those F1 washers too

[Amphicar]

Notice that in the Protos they had to cut a slot in the screen so that the driver would have an undistorted view. IIRC Jack Brabham tried it at Rheims on his Cooper, it didn't work then either.

If it was a practical proposition, it would be in use already.

The Protos windscreen was there to improve the streamlining of the car rather than for protection but I don't think the slot was to give an undistorted view (well not directly anyway). As I recall it was to increase ventilation to stop the screen "fogging up". If you look at photos of the Protos in action the drivers' eyeline is above the slot.

[Tsarwash]

windscreens would be removable in the wet. but it would play havoc with the aero so most teams might leave it on.

[Mauseri]

Because a windscreen would be in the airflow where as the airflow is directed over the driver.

You think the drop effect would be worse in intense airflow than in mild airflow? Maybe, who knows. There are also chemicals which can be used to clean the screen from water. I once tried it in my car, did not need wipers in highway speeds, but the effect of drops sliding rapidly on the screen is a little annoying.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

It's completely impossible, that's why F/A 18 Hornets have to fly with open canopies in rainy weather.

Geez.

The Redbull concept car looks killer, why anybody wouldn't want that for both looks and safety reasons is beyond me. The last remaining neanderthal danger left in
F1, after all of these years of making safety upgrades, is COCKPIT INTRUSION.

Wouldn't it be cool to see the cars, when they pull into the pits, to have the canopy come open ala Star Wars?

Extraction: if something is on top of the car in such a way that a canopy can't be removed - then WTF would have happened to the driver in such a circumstance if the canopy WASN'T there???

[Risil]

It's completely impossible, that's why F/A 18 Hornets have to fly with open canopies in rainy weather.

I thought you were being serious there for a second, and was just ready to file it away in 'surprising things I've learned recently'...

[midgrid]

Wouldn't it be cool to see the cars, when they pull into the pits, to have the canopy come open ala Star Wars?

I think it's cooler to see the driver's helmet when he is racing, but there you go.

[chuffbiscuits]

If they enclose the cockpits, even with partial windscreens, I've had it. This is open wheel, open cockpit racing and if we carry on down the safety-first route then they'll soon just have R/C cars controlled by drivers sitting in the pit lane or at home.

[Bloggsworth]

More like if they had to, they would, I'd say.

Sportscars solve all the problems, no reason why F1 couldn't.

F1 wipers? Why not? Let's see those F1 washers too

Sportscar windscreens would be som 10 times the area and made in laminated glass.

[undersquare]

Sportscar windscreens would be som 10 times the area and made in laminated glass.

When we've gone over this in the past all the objections have tended to be ones that sportscars have dealt with. Rain, rescue, vision.

It's quite doable, and safer. It's a question of tradition really.

[Clatter]

You think the drop effect would be worse in intense airflow than in mild airflow? Maybe, who knows. There are also chemicals which can be used to clean the screen from water. I once tried it in my car, did not need wipers in highway speeds, but the effect of drops sliding rapidly on the screen is a little annoying.

I've used the same sort of stuff and it's very effective, but that's at motorway speeds, no idea what it's like at racing speeds, and as other series that have windscreens still use wipers I assume it's from necessity.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Is there a missing thread or news report somewhere? Why are you arguing about windscreens in F1?

[d246]

I've used the same sort of stuff and it's very effective, but that's at motorway speeds, no idea what it's like at racing speeds, and as other series that have windscreens still use wipers I assume it's from necessity.

Aircraft use them too.

Agree with previous poster re seeing head moving etc. I would like to see more of arms / hands but realise that there is no chance due to safety / aero.

[arknor]

Why would they need wipers, if they dont need it in visor either

visors have pull off strips for when they get dirty/bugs on them

[Risil]

Is there a missing thread or news report somewhere? Why are you arguing about windscreens in F1?

SpeedTV dot com ran the story this morning. It's a bit light on detail, but the names behind it -- Ecclestone and Professor Watkins -- suggest this will be a serious proposal. Compared to just about every safety modification inflicted on the sport, this one will be relatively harmless aesthetically, I suspect.

http://formula-one.s...rotect-drivers/

[Birelman]

A windscreen like this will be so awesome

LOL is that Anakin Skywalker dressed as Vettel?

[dau]

visors have pull off strips for when they get dirty/bugs on them

They could use tear-off windscreens for that matter.

Edited by dau, 23 December 2010 - 17:09.

[Birelman]

It's completely impossible, that's why F/A 18 Hornets have to fly with open canopies in rainy weather.

Geez.

The Redbull concept car looks killer, why anybody wouldn't want that for both looks and safety reasons is beyond me. The last remaining neanderthal danger left in
F1, after all of these years of making safety upgrades, is COCKPIT INTRUSION.

Wouldn't it be cool to see the cars, when they pull into the pits, to have the canopy come open ala Star Wars?

Extraction: if something is on top of the car in such a way that a canopy can't be removed - then WTF would have happened to the driver in such a circumstance if the canopy WASN'T there???

When in rain, you fly by instruments.....

[Birelman]

They could use tear-off windscreens for that matter.

LOL I'd love to see the driver open the cockpit midrace pull his hand out, reach forwad and peal one side, then, use the other hand, peal the other side! Then, close the cockpit and all this within the time it takes them between corner and corner in a straight!!!!

[Birelman]

If they enclose the cockpits, even with partial windscreens, I've had it. This is open wheel, open cockpit racing and if we carry on down the safety-first route then they'll soon just have R/C cars controlled by drivers sitting in the pit lane or at home.

Then we can all be world champions from our playstations!!!!

[Alburaq]

Lola proposed this concept in the past:

http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola-m10.jpg
http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola_m10.jpg

But I think this solution could be a good compromise

http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola_m12.jpg

Edited by Alburaq, 23 December 2010 - 17:18.

[Birelman]

I've used the same sort of stuff and it's very effective, but that's at motorway speeds, no idea what it's like at racing speeds, and as other series that have windscreens still use wipers I assume it's from necessity.

When racing, the vision impediment is mostly from rooster tale spray and stuff, as well as dirt flying around from those same rooster tales. It would be very different from motorway, as you said. In open cockpit they can just wipe off some of that dirt with their gloves, then pull a tear off when it gets unbearable, can't pull a windscreen tear off, I don't think. I think wipers are a necessity.

I really have no position either for, or against a proposal of windscreens, I always thought that in the future, open cockpit cars were going to become bubble cockpit cars, so, maybe it will happen one day, I don't know. I would rather see the driver's helmets sticking out, but, really, the way the cockpits surround the drivers now we can't see the helmets so much anymore, not like pre-94 anyway, when we could even see their shoulders sticking out and working the steering wheel!! So, I don't know, maybe it's time to go with it, who knows?

Edited by Birelman, 23 December 2010 - 17:23.

[Birelman]

Lola proposed this concept in the past:

http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola-m10.jpg
http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola_m10.jpg

But I think this solution could be a good compromise

http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola_m12.jpg

LOL I don't like that last one!

How does the driver get out with the first 2? is that roll bar attached to the foamie thingies they have around the driver that come out? I would think, but I dunno

[Alburaq]

It's obvious the top protection is attached to the removable side protections...

[Rob G]

Rain-X has been around for at least 25 years. Racing in the rain wouldn't be a problem.

[ExFlagMan]

The Protos was also unusual in having a monocoque constructed from plywood!

Is that the earliest use of composites at that level?

[Enkei]

A windscreen like this will be so awesome

That's more of a jet fighter canopy than a windscreen

[One]

Lola proposed this concept in the past:

http://i69.servimg.c...26/lola_m10.jpg

Do this without the transparent front shield ? Perhaps then bigger head protection?

[Burai]

The Protos was also unusual in having a monocoque constructed from plywood!

Those drivers truly were gods among men weren't they? "Sit in this bathtub constructed from steel and wood and drive it around at 150mph between these trees. Without a seatbelt."

[Alburaq]

Do this without the transparent front shield ? Perhaps then bigger head protection?

What do you mean ??

[Amphicar]

Is that the earliest use of composites at that level?

No - the first McLaren F1 car to race, the 1966 M2B had a Robin Herd designed chassis constructed from Mallite - a composite of aluminium and balsa wood.

[CSquared]

Those drivers truly were gods among men weren't they? "Sit in this bathtub [full of fuel] constructed from steel and wood and drive it around at 150mph between these trees. Without a seatbelt."

Edit.

[Risil]

Those drivers truly were gods among men weren't they? "Sit in this bathtub constructed from steel and wood and drive it around at 150mph between these trees. Without a seatbelt."

Nothing your modern TT or Ulster GP rider doesn't do faster and more precariously.

[One]

What do you mean ??

...

Sorry difficult to explain with no sketch.

there are tow elements, one in front of driver, that is transparent shield.
Two that is above and around driver's helm, that is a part of the car.

I say to remove the first element in front of the driver, and to rationalize the second element as it can function in a optimal manner. Possibly connected with the removable protection around the driver suited currently in the car.

[One]

Those drivers truly were gods among men weren't they? "Sit in this bathtub constructed from steel and wood and drive it around at 150mph between these trees. Without a seatbelt."

AY

[johnmhinds]

I would have thought a windscreen on a modern F1 car like the Lola mockups would just kill all the visibility for the driver.
Driving into the sun would be a complete nightmare.

You'd be asking the drivers to drive blind, or at most use peripheral vision only while driving with a low angled windscreen like this.

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 December 2010 - 22:13.