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#1 Wuzak

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 21:14

Apparently some car companies are developing new petrol engines that are spark ignition at part load and compression ignition at high load. A concept that has been dubbed Diesotto.

John Carey, in his, column in Wheels magazine quotes Dr Herbert Kohler as claimingan efficiency gain of 20-25% for a Diesotto (named for Rudolph Diesel and Nikolaus Otto, obviously), matching Diesel engine efficiency, without the particulate and NOx problems.

Carey also quotes Dr Kohler saying "I have some doubt that the Diesel will survive, let's say, the next five to ten years". This opinion referring to the ever tightening emissions legislation worldwide.

Dr Kohler is "executive in charge of future mobility and environmental officer" at Daimler-Benz.


So, is the Diesel's days numbered?
Does compression ignition give such a great advantage?
Will Diesottos bee relatively slow speed (for petrol) engines?
How hard is it to have controlled compression ignition in a petrol engine?
How do the compression ratios compare to a Diesel's?
Will it allow much higher air to fuel ratios?
How near is the technology?

Edited by Wuzak, 25 December 2010 - 21:15.


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#2 Magoo

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 21:48

No. Depends. Relatively. Damned hard. Roughly comparable (geometrically variable). That's the hope. We'll see.

If I am not mistaken, it's other way around: CI at low speeds, SI for starting and max speed/load.

The problem with predicting the death of anything in 5-10 years is that time flies. The diesotto was first unveiled three years ago. Tick-tock, Dr. Kohler.

#3 Wuzak

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 22:52

If I am not mistaken, it's other way around: CI at low speeds, SI for starting and max speed/load.


The magazine column says it CI for high load, SI for low load, but Wiki agrees with you. Not that either magazines or articles on the web have ever been wrong.

Anyone know definitively?


The problem with predicting the death of anything in 5-10 years is that time flies. The diesotto was first unveiled three years ago. Tick-tock, Dr. Kohler.


True!

#4 Wuzak

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 22:52

No. Depends. Relatively. Damned hard. Roughly comparable (geometrically variable). That's the hope. We'll see.


Thanks for those answers.


#5 Greg Locock

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 02:23

Are you not discussing HCCI? http://green.autoblo...idle-to-60-mph/ Lotus also have one running.

#6 Wuzak

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 03:51

Are you not discussing HCCI? http://green.autoblo...idle-to-60-mph/ Lotus also have one running.



Does that one always run as compression ignition?

The ones I have heard have operating modes as spark ignition and compression ignition. And different companies have different names for it. I think Diesotto is D-B's name for it.

#7 Grumbles

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:08

How do they control the speed of combustion and avoid detonation? Some sort of charge stratification?

#8 gruntguru

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 07:49

How do they control the speed of combustion and avoid detonation? Some sort of charge stratification?

Detonation can be considered as combustion with a flame front velocity close to the speed of sound. This results in a pressure wave travelling (at Mach 1) along with the flame front. The pressure gradient in this pressure wave increases dramatically as it proceeds since the accompanying flame front is adding to the pressure.

HCCI involves multiple ignition sites throughout the mixture with very short flame propagations. There is no opportunity for detonation to occur across a large, unburnt region (like the end-gas in a SI engine).

Controlling HCCI can be done by controlling any of a number of variables including
- Charge temperature
- Charge pressure
- Mixture strength
- EGR

HCCR is usually "Homogeneous Charge" ie no stratification, so ignition conditions will occur uniformly and almost simultaneously throughout the charge.

#9 cheapracer

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 08:22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto

I expect even Benz is capable of a "Investors" link :lol:

#10 Grumbles

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:04

HCCI involves multiple ignition sites throughout the mixture with very short flame propagations. There is no opportunity for detonation to occur across a large, unburnt region (like the end-gas in a SI engine).

Controlling HCCI can be done by controlling any of a number of variables including
- Charge temperature
- Charge pressure
- Mixture strength
- EGR

HCCR is usually "Homogeneous Charge" ie no stratification, so ignition conditions will occur uniformly and almost simultaneously throughout the charge.


So the pressure rise would likely be much sharper than with a conventional SI engine? I guess that means it would also then have the noise and structural strength issues of a diesel..


#11 malbear

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 19:25

So the pressure rise would likely be much sharper than with a conventional SI engine? I guess that means it would also then have the noise and structural strength issues of a diesel..

all that I have read suggests that the attempts so far have more shock knock problems than diesel and it is very hard to keep the running in the sweet spot where it might actually work.
It seems to be an accademic ,engineering fassion trend.

"Introduction
HCCI has characteristics of the two most popular forms of combustion used in IC engines: homogeneous charge spark ignition (gasoline engines) and stratified charge compression ignition (diesel engines). As in homogeneous charge spark ignition, the fuel and oxidizer are mixed together. However, rather than using an electric discharge to ignite a portion of the mixture, the density and temperature of the mixture are raised by compression until the entire mixture reacts spontaneously. Stratified charge compression ignition also relies on temperature and density increase resulting from compression, but combustion occurs at the boundary of fuel-air mixing, caused by an injection event, to initiate combustion.
The defining characteristic of HCCI is that the ignition occurs at several places at a time which makes the fuel/air mixture burn nearly simultaneously. There is no direct initiator of combustion. This makes the process inherently challenging to control. However, with advances in microprocessors and a physical understanding of the ignition process, HCCI can be controlled to achieve gasoline engine-like emissions along with diesel engine-like efficiency. In fact, HCCI engines have been shown to achieve extremely low levels of Nitrogen oxide emissions (NOx) without aftertreatment catalytic converter. The unburned hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions are still high (due to lower peak temperatures), as in gasoline engines, and must still be treated to meet automotive emission regulations.
[edit] History
HCCI engines have a long history, even though HCCI has not been as widely implemented as spark ignition or diesel injection. It is essentially an Otto combustion cycle. In fact, HCCI was popular before electronic spark ignition was used. One example is the hot-bulb engine which used a hot vaporization chamber to help mix fuel with air. The extra heat combined with compression induced the conditions for combustion to occur. Another example is the "diesel" model aircraft engine.
[edit] Operation
[edit] Methods
A mixture of fuel and air will ignite when the concentration and temperature of reactants is sufficiently high. The concentration and/or temperature can be increased several different ways:
• High compression ratio
• Pre-heat induction gases
• Forced induction
• Retain or reinduct exhaust
Once ignited, combustion occurs very quickly. When auto-ignition occurs too early or with too much chemical energy, combustion is too fast and high in-cylinder pressures can destroy an engine. For this reason, HCCI is typically operated at lean overall fuel mixtures.
[edit] Advantages
• HCCI is closer to the ideal Otto cycle than spark-ignited combustion.
• Lean operation leads to higher efficiency than in spark-ignited gasoline engines
• Homogeneous mixing of fuel and air leads to cleaner combustion and lower emissions. In fact, due to the fact that peak temperatures are significantly lower than in typical spark ignited engines, NOx levels are almost negligible.
• Since HCCI runs throttleless, it eliminates throttling losses
[edit] Disadvantages
• High peak pressures
• High heat release rates
• Difficulty of control
• Limited power range
• High carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon pre-catalyst emissions
[edit] Control
Controlling HCCI is a major hurdle to more widespread commercialization. HCCI is more difficult to control than other popular modern combustion methods.
In a typical gasoline engine, a spark is used to ignite the pre-mixed fuel and air. In diesel engines, combustion begins when the fuel is injected into compressed air. In both cases, the timing of combustion is explicitly controlled. In an HCCI engine, however, the homogeneous mixture of fuel and air is compressed, and combustion begins whenever the appropriate conditions are reached. This means that there is no well-defined combustion initiator that can be directly controlled. An engine can be designed so that the ignition conditions occur at a desirable timing. However, this would only happen at one operating point. The engine could not change the amount of work it produces. This could work in a hybrid vehicle, but most engines must modulate their output to meet user demands dynamically.
To achieve dynamic operation in an HCCI engine, the control system must change the conditions that induce combustion. Thus, the engine must control either the compression ratio, inducted gas temperature, inducted gas pressure, fuel-air ratio, or quantity of retained or reinducted exhaust.
Several approaches have been suggested for control:
[edit] Variable compression ratio
There are several methods of modulating both the geometric and effective compression ratio. The geometric compression ratio can be changed with a movable plunger at the top of the cylinder head. This is the system used in "diesel" model aircraft engines.
The effective compression ratio can be reduced from the geometric ratio by closing the intake valve either very late or very early with some form of variable valve actuation (i.e. variable valve timing permitting Miller cycle).
Both of the approaches mentioned above require some amounts of energy to achieve fast responses and are expensive (no more true for the 2nd solution, the variable valve timing having been mastered). A 3rd proposed solution is being developed by the MCE-5 company (new rod).
[edit] Variable induction temperature
This technique is also known as fast thermal management. It is accomplished by rapidly varying the cycle to cycle intake charge temperature. It is also expensive to implement and has limited bandwidth associated with actuator energy.
[edit] Variable exhaust gas percentage
Exhaust gas can be very hot if retained or reinducted from the previous combustion cycle or cool if recirculated through the intake as in conventional EGR systems. The exhaust has dual effects on HCCI combustion. It dilutes the fresh charge, delaying ignition and reducing the chemical energy and engine work. Hot combustion products conversely will increase the temperature of the gases in the cylinder and advance ignition.
[edit] Variable valve actuation
Variable valve actuation (VVA) has been proven to extend the HCCI operating region by giving finer control over the temperature-pressure-time history within the combustion chamber. VVA can achieve this via two distinct methods:
1. Controlling the effective compression ratio: A variable duration VVA system on intake can control the point at which the intake valve closes. If this is ******** past bottom dead center (BDC), then the compression ratio will change, altering the in-cylinder pressure-time history prior to combustion.
2. Controlling the amount of hot exhaust gas retained in the combustion chamber: A VVA system can be used to control the amount of hot internal exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) within the combustion chamber. This can be achieved with several methods, including valve re-opening and changes in valve overlap. By balancing the percentage of cooled external EGR with the hot internal EGR generated by a VVA system, it may be possible to control the in-cylinder temperature.
Whilst electro-hydraulic and camless VVA systems can be used to give a great deal of control over the valve event, the componentry for such systems is currently complicated and expensive.
Mechanical variable lift and duration systems, however, whilst still being more complex than a standard valvetrain, are far cheaper and less complicated. If the desired VVA characteristic is known, then it is relatively simple to configure such systems to achieve the necessary control over the valve lift curve.
Also see variable valve timing.
[edit] High peak pressures and heat release rates
In a typical gasoline or diesel engine, combustion occurs via a flame. Hence at any point in time, only a fraction of the total fuel is burning. This results in low peak pressures and low energy release. In HCCI, however, the entire fuel/air mixture ignites and burns nearly simultaneously resulting in high peak pressures and high energy release rates. To withstand the higher pressures, the engine has to be structurally stronger and therefore heavier.
Several strategies have been proposed to lower the rate of combustion. Two different blends of fuel can be used, that will ignite at different times, resulting in lower combustion speed. The problem with this is the requirement to set up an infrastructure to supply the blended fuel. Alternatively, dilution, for example with exhaust, reduces the pressure and combustion rate at the cost of work production.
[edit] Power
In a gasoline engine, power can be increased by increasing the fuel/air charge. In a diesel engine, power can be increased by increasing the amount of fuel injected. The engines can withstand a boost in power because the heat release rate in these engines is slow. In HCCI however, the entire mixture burns nearly simultaneously. Increasing the fuel/air ratio will result in even higher peak pressures and heat release rates. Also, increasing the fuel/air ratio (also called the equivalence ratio) increases the danger of knock. In addition, many of the viable control strategies for HCCI require thermal preheating of the charge which reduces the density and hence the mass of the air/fuel charge in the combustion chamber, reducing power. These factors makes increasing the power in HCCI inherently challenging.
One way to increase power is to use different blends of fuel. This will lower the heat release rate and peak pressures and will make it possible to increase the equivalence ratio. Another way is to thermally stratify the charge so that different points in the compressed charge will have different temperatures and will burn at different times lowering the heat release rate making it possible to increase power. A third way is to run the engine in HCCI mode only at part load conditions and run it as a diesel or spark ignition engine at full or near full load conditions. Since much more research is required to successfully implement thermal stratification in the compressed charge, the last approach is being studied more intensively.
[edit] Carbon Monoxide and Hydrocarbon emissions
Since HCCI operates on lean mixtures, the peak temperatures are lower in comparison to spark ignition and diesel engines. The low peak temperatures prevent the formation of NOx. However they also lead to incomplete burning of fuel especially near the walls of the combustion chamber. This leads to high carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions. An oxidizing catalyst would be effective at removing the regulated species since the exhaust is still oxygen rich.
[edit] Difference from Knock
Engine knock or pinging occurs when some of the unburnt gases ahead of the flame in a spark ignited engine spontaneously ignite. The unburnt gas ahead of the flame is compressed as the flame propagates and the pressure in the combustion chamber rises. The high pressure and corresponding high temperature of unburnt reactants can cause them to spontaneously ignite. This causes a shock wave to traverse from the end gas region and an expansion wave to traverse into the end gas region. The two waves reflect off the boundaries of the combustion chamber and interact to produce high amplitude standing waves.
A similar ignition process occurs in HCCI. However, rather than part of the reactant mixture being ignited by compression ahead of a flame front, ignition in HCCI engines occurs due to piston compression. In HCCI, the entire reactant mixture ignites (nearly) simultaneaously. Since there are very little or no pressure differences between the different regions of the gas, there is no shock wave propagation and hence no knocking. However at high loads (i.e. high fuel/air ratios), knocking is a possibility even in HCCI.
Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition (HCCI)
UC Berkeley
Project Funded by

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL)
U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) "


Edited by malbear, 26 December 2010 - 20:17.


#12 gruntguru

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 04:54

So the pressure rise would likely be much sharper than with a conventional SI engine? I guess that means it would also then have the noise and structural strength issues of a diesel..

Yep. On the other hand most successful demonstrations of HCCI have been restricted to the part load region - probably for that reason.

#13 mariner

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 16:36

Speaking of novel engine concepts does anybody know of any more progress on the Ilmor five stroke engine?

http://www.ilmor.co...._5-stroke_1.php

#14 malbear

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 20:14

Speaking of novel engine concepts does anybody know of any more progress on the Ilmor five stroke engine?

http://www.ilmor.co...._5-stroke_1.php


Posted Image

looks to me like the two outside power 4 stroke pistons alternatly empty their exhaust into a two stroke expanding piston. I am not sure at what crank angle they do this and therefore how much expansion takes place in the 4 stroke outside pistons . there would have to be some transfer losses and heat rejection to the valves as both the exhaust valve and transfer valve have to be open at the same time. the exhaust valves for the twostroke piston are operated at crank speed putting a cap on engine speed
thats all that I can gleen from looking at the website

#15 mariner

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 09:53

That is pretty much how the Ilmor engine works. It has two cams, the one for the middle cylinder runs at full engine speed not half speed as the middle cylinder is taking in two sets of exhaust gases.

It is a bit like a marine triple expansion engine in that it is extracting extra energy from the combustion process. Interestingly I beleive Ilmor plan to use a turbo so there must still be some residual energy after the second cylinder.


BTW the Livermoor lab are involved in HCCI ( see above) partially because the HCCI proces is so complex that Livermoore uses its nuclear fission modelling computers to try to model HCCI.

#16 J. Edlund

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 21:35

There are several possebilities of using other combustion modes for both otto and diesel engines.

The otto engine typically operates with a homogeneous charge using spark ignition. But it can also operate with a stratified charge using spark ignition, as many direct injection engines do at part load. But at high load and high speeds they still operate with a homogeneous charge, like regular otto engines. The problem with a stratified charge is exhaust emissions; a catalyst can't reduce NOx when there is an excess of oxygen. One solution to this problem, like in the link Greg posted, is to operate with a homogeneous charge and compression ignition (HCCI) instead of a stratified charge with spark ignition at part load. Just like with a stratified charge, HCCI will be done with air excess (it reduces the combustion speed), but the HCCI combustion produce very little NOx since the fuel burns with a low temperature. Basically, this offers a higher efficiency at part load, similar efficiency as a regular otto engine at high load and low emissions which simplify exhaust aftertreatment. At high load a HCCI engine will have a problem similar to knock in an ordinary gasoline engine, so HCCI mode is limited to low engine loads.

Another possebility is to start with a diesel engine, but then use a homogeneous charge (HCCI) at low loads instead of the for a diesel engine typical diffusion flame combustion during fuel injection. Again the advantage is lower emissions at part load. Efficiency comparable with a diesel engine at low and high load. Regular diesel combustion at high loads.

A third possebility is to use partially premixed combustion. Here we start with a diesel engine, fit it with spark plugs and run it on gasoline or another low cetane fuel like alcohol. The low cetane number will increase the ignition delay, this gives the fuel time to partially premix before combustion. At low loads the spark plugs help ignite the fuel. High efficiency is possible (above 50%), heat losses are smaller than with HCCI, and emissions are low.

#17 John Brundage

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 02:09

It sounds like a variation of a hot head diesel. Below is from http://www.cottongin...rg/bessemer.htm
According to the operating manual, “the Bessemer Oil Engine is guaranteed to use successfully crude oil, fuel oil, or distillate … including all Eastern crudes, fuel and gas oils, most Southern and Southwestern crudes…, as well as “California fuel oils of the kinds sold in that state for Diesel Engine fuel. Kerosene, distillates, alcohol and even gasoline, are of course included.”
specs:
Engine weight – 31,738 pounds
Two pistons, weighing 323 pounds each, stroking at 180° intervals
Two 78” diameter flywheels, weighing 3,285 pounds each
Centrifugal flywheel governor, which controls fuel injection pump to maintain proper engine speed
125 horsepower at 250 RPM
Piston displacement – 5,541.6 cubic inches (roughly 91liters)
14 inch bore, 18 inch stroke
10:1 compression ratio (approximate, can be adjusted by screwing piston in or out depending on type of fuel being used)
Designed to run on heavy fuel oil (Diesel #6), currently being run on Diesel #2 (with added oil)
Semi hemispherical cylinder heads
Hot tube ignition – copper hot tubes, heated by burners prior to starting, injectors have one hole indexed to the hollow hot tube to ensure fuel ignition
Starting time – cold days, 45 minutes to 1 hour preheat time, warm days or recently run, 15-25 minutes
Water injection – to maintain proper temperature, efficient ignition of fuel and reduce detonation
Started by compressed air, which is injected into the cylinders as they pass top dead center

I have a smaller hot head diesel, maybe 1.5 hp. It can be started on gasoline and switched to diesel. One day I'll finish restoring it.


#18 Grumbles

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:57

That is pretty much how the Ilmor engine works. It has two cams, the one for the middle cylinder runs at full engine speed not half speed as the middle cylinder is taking in two sets of exhaust gases.

It is a bit like a marine triple expansion engine in that it is extracting extra energy from the combustion process. Interestingly I beleive Ilmor plan to use a turbo so there must still be some residual energy after the second cylinder...


There's something that I've never really understood about compound engines such as the old triple expansion marine engines. Why is it not possible to achieve the same result by using a bigger capacity cylinder along with an inlet valve that closes early enough to allow complete expansion of the working fluid in a single stroke?
Wouldn't that extract the same amount of work from a given charge weight as expanding it in two or three steps? I'm obviously missing that factor that justifies the added complexity of the extra cylinders and valving..

Edited by Grumbles, 08 January 2011 - 04:59.


#19 gruntguru

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 06:47

It sounds like a variation of a hot head diesel. Below is from http://www.cottongin...rg/bessemer.htm
According to the operating manual, "the Bessemer Oil Engine is guaranteed to use successfully crude oil, fuel oil, or distillate … including all Eastern crudes, fuel and gas oils, most Southern and Southwestern crudes…, as well as "California fuel oils of the kinds sold in that state for Diesel Engine fuel. Kerosene, distillates, alcohol and even gasoline, are of course included."

Getting a bit off topic but I know a guy who restores old stationary engines and has at least one fully restored hot head. I haven't witnessed this yet but he has asked me a number of times to explain an interesting phenomenon.

When starting this engine, he rotates the flywheel backwards (by hand) against compression. It bounces off compression, reverses, fires and continues to run in the correct direction. The interesting thing is that it happens in that order, ie it doesn't fire untill the piston starts to descend. To demonstrate this, he can push the flywheel backwards against compression and hold it there and it does not fire. As soon as he moves the flywheel forwards (piston away from TDC) the engine fires (he can feel a kick through the flywheel). I can only presume there is some chemical reaction that is intitiated by expansion/reduction in pressure/reduction in temperature or combination.

Any chemists out there that can explain this phenomenon?

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#20 gruntguru

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:16

There's something that I've never really understood about compound engines such as the old triple expansion marine engines. Why is it not possible to achieve the same result by using a bigger capacity cylinder along with an inlet valve that closes early enough to allow complete expansion of the working fluid in a single stroke?

It is done of course in the Miller cycle and expansion ratios of up to 15:1 are used. Of course expansion ratio is a primary determinant of thermal efficiency - not compression ratio as usually stated. Beyond 15:1 and using LIVC (the usual strategy for Miller cycle) the efficiency gains diminish because the combustion chamber is substantially cooled by the intake process and heat loss to the cool walls during combustion increases, aggravated by the high surface area to volume ratio of the chamber at high expansion ratios. So to increase expansion ratio significantly higher, a secondary expansion cylinder becomes more efficient.

The effect in triple expansion steam engines is similar. If the steam was expanded entirely in one cylinder, the hot cylinder would lose a lot of heat to the cool, expanded steam (bad) and the hotter, high pressure steam entering the cool cylinder would lose a lot of heat to the cylinder (also bad). It is more correct to think of the three pressure stages in the triple expansion engine as three temperature stages with each cylinder temp similar to the steam being handled.

Edited by gruntguru, 08 January 2011 - 07:17.


#21 Grumbles

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:11

Thanks GG, I'd overlooked the heat losses.

Getting back to the Ilmor compound engine and similar designs - we know that with conventional engines, where the exhaust opens somewhere around 70deg or so BBDC, we can jack the valve opening point around quite a bit without drastically changing the output. Delaying the opening point adds nothing to the output and often reduces it - any gains from extending the power stroke are lost due to the negative effect on blowdown and scavenging, even though the pressure is still quite high when the valve opens. You would expect an engine such as that Ilmor to behave similarly? Though I guess the heat loss issues mentioned above would work in its favour..

#22 gruntguru

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:16

Getting back to the Ilmor compound engine and similar designs - we know that with conventional engines, where the exhaust opens somewhere around 70deg or so BBDC, we can jack the valve opening point around quite a bit without drastically changing the output. Delaying the opening point adds nothing to the output and often reduces it - any gains from extending the power stroke are lost due to the negative effect on blowdown and scavenging, even though the pressure is still quite high when the valve opens. You would expect an engine such as that Ilmor to behave similarly? Though I guess the heat loss issues mentioned above would work in its favour..

I gues EVO is mainly about getting pressure out of the cylinder - open it too late and the piston has to do extra pumping work at the start of the exhaust stroke. At first glance you would assume the Ilmor 5 stroke wouldn't suffer much from advancing EVO - any work lost in the power cylinder would probably be recovered as extra work in the expansion cylinder.

I did toy with the idea of converting an IL 4 cylinder to 5 stroke, using the middle two cylinders combined as an expansion cylinder. It would only require some special cams (double lobed on the expansion cylinders) and reworked plumbing (exhaust manifold replaced by a transfer manifold and #2 and #3 intake ports converted to exhaust. The biggest problem was the volume of the transfer pipes which needs to be minimised to get any benefit. I eventually decided it would need a permanent (internal) passage connecting #2 and #3 cylinders and two seperate transfer pipes - one connecting #1 and #2 exhaust ports and another for #3 and #4 (along with appropriate opening of #2 and #3 transfer valves and single-lobed transfer cam)

#23 cheapracer

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 09:25

I did toy with the idea of converting an IL 4 cylinder to 5 stroke, using the middle two cylinders combined as an expansion cylinder.


I toy'ed doing it to a 6 many years ago however in reverse, 2 cylinders to supercharge the other 4.


#24 gruntguru

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 11:15

I toy'ed doing it to a 6 many years ago however in reverse, 2 cylinders to supercharge the other 4.

Since 2 cylinders as a compressor only displace as much air as the 4 cylinders operating on a 4 stroke cycle, you must have had a scheme to add the compressed air late in the intake stroke - care to elaborate?

#25 Kelpiecross

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 03:12

Getting a bit off topic but I know a guy who restores old stationary engines and has at least one fully restored hot head. I haven't witnessed this yet but he has asked me a number of times to explain an interesting phenomenon.

When starting this engine, he rotates the flywheel backwards (by hand) against compression. It bounces off compression, reverses, fires and continues to run in the correct direction. The interesting thing is that it happens in that order, ie it doesn't fire untill the piston starts to descend. To demonstrate this, he can push the flywheel backwards against compression and hold it there and it does not fire. As soon as he moves the flywheel forwards (piston away from TDC) the engine fires (he can feel a kick through the flywheel). I can only presume there is some chemical reaction that is intitiated by expansion/reduction in pressure/reduction in temperature or combination.

Any chemists out there that can explain this phenomenon?


I think some awkward-to-start model plane engines are also started by this "reverse-flick" method. It doesn't make sense to me either but it seems to work.

#26 Kelpiecross

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 04:01

Since 2 cylinders as a compressor only displace as much air as the 4 cylinders operating on a 4 stroke cycle, you must have had a scheme to add the compressed air late in the intake stroke - care to elaborate?


Grunt/Grumbles - These suggestions of increased thermal efficiency by HCCI, Diesotto, compound engines etc. all seem a bit frightening and not really necessary to me.
An Atkinson Cycle engine running on a very high compression/expansion ratio of 18:1 (or so) to give a high TE and load control by fully variable LIVC to keep the TE up at part load (EIVC is not good in this application) would seem to me to give probably about the best overall economy of fuel usage by a SI engine. It is also very simple - the 18:1 part of the idea is basically just an normal engine with a high CR.
The usual argument is that an increased capacity engine (with increased weight and size etc.) is needed. But with an 18:1 CR you would consume about half the fuel but get about two-thirds the power of the equivalent engine. The engine would need to be (for example) 1300cc instead of 1000cc - it may even be exactly the same size and weight as a normal engine.
I have seen (and driven - this was quite a few years ago) the Helical Cam company's 18:1 BMC A-Series 1300cc engine fitted to a Morris 1100 body. The engine had a "rudimentary" form of manifold pressure restriction (to about 14 inches Hg if I remember correctly). Although a real bastard to get it to turn over initially to start (they finally used 24 volts on a 12 volt starter motor) it ran very well. It got about 40mpg in normal suburban traffic. The idle quality (eveness) was much improved over the normal slightly lumpy A-Series idle.
There were plans to put the engine in the much lighter Mini body where it probably would have been quite lively and returned maybe 50mpg but the starting problems and problems with the reliabilty of the manifold pressure restriction system (when it failed the detonation was something to behold) it wasn't proceded with.
LIVC either by the helical cam or one of the seemingly-endless variety of Pattakon systems would tame the problems and make it quite useable.

So I really don't think extreme ideas like HCCI, compound engines etc. are necessary at all. My reaction to HCCI is "Are they serious"?


#27 gruntguru

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:35

So I really don't think extreme ideas like HCCI, compound engines etc. are necessary at all. My reaction to HCCI is "Are they serious"?

You overlook a couple of things in your post.
1. Atkinson/Miller cycle engines do not obtain the efficiency levels of Diesel or HCCI.
2. Diesels do not achieve the low emission levels of HCCI.

#28 cheapracer

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 08:19

Since 2 cylinders as a compressor only displace as much air as the 4 cylinders operating on a 4 stroke cycle, you must have had a scheme to add the compressed air late in the intake stroke - care to elaborate?


Yeah the elaboration is I was a teenager at the time and had many a scheme going without much broader thought :lol:

I built a VDub head with a roller bearing OHC camshaft just cause I could back then, did all sorts of crazy time wasting things, fun days.


#29 gruntguru

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 08:30

I built a VDub head with a roller bearing OHC camshaft just cause I could

Pushrods on the other side?

#30 mariner

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 13:39

Whilst people are mentioning oddball engines I will add the Kitson Still railway locomotive of the 1920's It was an effort by a steam engine company to get into the nascent Diesel market without all the electric transmission know how and cost. However the idea was quite interesting as it use both external and internal combustion and exhaust heat recovery. As train engines do not ( usually) have multiple mechanical gears it aimed to eleiminate the characteristic IC torque curve by using steam.

http://www.lner.info...IC/kitson.shtml.

I suppose you could sketch up a car or truck equivalent with a flash steam boiler switching to heat recovery in full diesel mode.

I doubt the 40% T.E. claim as locomotive steam engine thermal efficencies were pretty low so even 255 would have been an improvement.

#31 cheapracer

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 16:40

Pushrods on the other side?


Nah, I was going to make a full roller bearing DOHC cam VDub engine (including crank) - I have no idea why :lol:

#32 Kelpiecross

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 04:38

You overlook a couple of things in your post.
1. Atkinson/Miller cycle engines do not obtain the efficiency levels of Diesel or HCCI.
2. Diesels do not achieve the low emission levels of HCCI.


Grunt - An 18:1 Atkinson engine may not have quite the possible TE of HCCI or diesel but it would not be greatly different - prpbably around 40%. My main point was that a normal SI engine converted to an 18:1 CR is very simple (relatively speaking) - you could make one at home. Can you imagine a home-made HCCI engine? (Even Manny and his entire clan couldn't do this).
Control by LIVC would be best but the cylinder pressure could be limited by a normal camshaft with the LIVC ground-in. And such an engine could happily run on half-the-price-of-petrol LPG.
My suggestion was meant as a practical idea rather than what I consider to be the less-than-practical HCCI.
Even when compared to a diesel engine the 18:1 SI has some advantages - such as being about half the weight in truck-size engines. If you have ever driven a big-engined diesel truck of some kind one thing you notice immediately is that the engine operating range seems to start at about 1300RPM and top RPM is governed to about 2000 -an really narrow band. An engine as suggested would not have this problem.