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2011 - MotoGP, WSB, Moto2, WSP, AMA, BSB


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#7601 Risil

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 18:27

Are the crashes the fault of the tyre? Or the fault of the rider?


Both really. The rider's the one who's in control and has to adapt to his machinery, but equally if the tyre is unpredictable and lets go without warning, there's not much a rider can do except not ride fast. The Bridgestones might not be so bad at this, if it weren't for the fact that they're so effective and grippy that any losses of adhesion that do happen occur at very high speeds. And anyway, these cold-tyre accidents seem to happen to the best riders indiscriminately. So perhaps saying that Stoner, Lorenzo, Spies aren't riding well enough is moot.

As I said though, the fault may lie elsewhere, it could be that teams have adapted their chassis and suspensions to get the most out of the Bridgestones, and as a consequence turned a quite safe tyre into a quite dangerous one. It's always been the way that riders and teams will take unpalatable risks, rather than be left behind.

I don't think using a control tyre that's so finicky about operating temperatures and riding styles is particularly beneficial to the other elements of the competition. Anyhow, Bridgestone say they're going to go away and rethink their constructions for next year, so perhaps Something Is Being Done.

Edited by Risil, 30 November 2011 - 20:34.


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#7602 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 19:39

Didn't the teams (and Honda comes to mind for some reason) lobby for a durable tire after Michelin's exit? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

#7603 Option1

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 20:30

Well said Risil. :up:

CD, I'm not sure that is true in this day and age. I would think with advances in technology in the modern world the gap between durability and performance can be made increasingly narrow. Or could be should there be a will to do so.

Neil

#7604 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 20:45

It's always going to be a compromise. If it weren't then Pirellis would hold up better while maintaining their soft carcass and fast warm up. It's less of one than it used to be but there's no 'perfect tire'.

#7605 Option1

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 21:03

I agree it's always going to be something of a compromise, but how much of one is something I think can be reduced if there is a will. If you're referring to the F1 Pirellis, then my understanding is that the soft options are designed to go off quickly intentionally as part of the requirements for the tyre Pirelli was asked to produce. Or so one version of the story goes.

Neil

#7606 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 21:48

I meant their motorcycle tire lineup. Compared the Dunlop they have a very narrow window in terms of operating temps and tear themselves to bits if you miss on pressures because of a change in weather. The tradeoff is that they give great feedback and come up to temperature quickly.

My understanding is that the Bridgestones are built more like the Dunlops with a very stiff carcass. This is a great trait to build into a tire for durability but it means that the carcass doesn't flex and heat up like a Pirelli would.

Maybe Ben can poke his head in here and explain a bit better.

#7607 Hippo

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 22:06

Bridgestone's MotoGP tires do degrade. We have seen this several times this season. If you don't remember watch a replay of the Indianapolis race. The difference is, that Bridgestone found a way to build their tires to deliver incredible levels of grip all the way. And the price is, that only a few riders have the skills to find out how to get them to work properly.

Thinking about it I believe Assen and Valencia are telling in a way. It must be especially difficult to get that tire working on a cold, almost moist track. I feel it's quite interesting, that Ben Spies performed extremely well under those conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if he stepped up big time next year.

#7608 PhilG

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 22:54

I meant their motorcycle tire lineup. Compared the Dunlop they have a very narrow window in terms of operating temps and tear themselves to bits if you miss on pressures because of a change in weather. The tradeoff is that they give great feedback and come up to temperature quickly.

My understanding is that the Bridgestones are built more like the Dunlops with a very stiff carcass. This is a great trait to build into a tire for durability but it means that the carcass doesn't flex and heat up like a Pirelli would.

Maybe Ben can poke his head in here and explain a bit better.


The Carcass flexing doesnt generate the heat, the rubber moving cos the carcass doesnt is what gets the heat going, at least that is how it was explained to me. Its why underinflated tyres cold tear easier. Once they get warm, then the carcass will become softer, and give more feel. I think its a common misconception that they tear cos they are too warm , which once they are warm, they can, but cold tearing in the early laps is down to being too soft, and not generating surface heat. I know that supermoto doesnt generate the same loads, but the theory and tyres are the same, you never improve tyre wear by going softer on pressure.


#7609 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:40

Then why the emphasis on upright braking and acceleration for warming a tire? It's the same as if you're to bend a piece of metal back and forth, the spot that is bending heats up. It's friction not between two objects but instead between the molecules of solid object.

As far as cold tearing goes the story I've got from the Pirelli guy is that a cold track simply doesn't get a tire hot enough to bring the pressures up high enough to keep the carcass' shape. The increased deformation is what then causes the tearing. The solution then is to increase air pressures to compensate.

Edited by Chubby_Deuce, 01 December 2011 - 01:41.


#7610 Tarzaan

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 21:18

Sykes on lap record pace at Valencia

The Briton posted a new lap best of 1min 33.1secs on race rubber, quicker than the top WSBK Superpole around Valencia.

http://www.crash.net...t_valencia.html


1:33.1--> could be 4th in the Valencia Race grid
--> could be 5th in the 1000ccm GP test

#7611 kosmic33

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 23:38

Steve Martin seems to think they are running a full WSBK spec motor that's only built to last one race meeting.

Does anyone else see the irony in this?
"the bikes only quick vs the moto gp bikes because it's got a wsb engine"
Surely this shows just how far production based racing has gone off track........

#7612 Ninjastar

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:00

Sykes on lap record pace at Valencia

The Briton posted a new lap best of 1min 33.1secs on race rubber, quicker than the top WSBK Superpole around Valencia.

http://www.crash.net...t_valencia.html


1:33.1--> could be 4th in the Valencia Race grid
--> could be 5th in the 1000ccm GP test


Go the Ninja!
I hope this form carries on next year, and it doesnt take them long to get up to speed during race weekends.

Interesting comparison too.
CRT < SBK ?? (apples to oranges).




#7613 Tarzaan

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 07:59

Go the Ninja!
I hope this form carries on next year, and it doesnt take them long to get up to speed during race weekends.

Interesting comparison too.
CRT < SBK ?? (apples to oranges).


+ for WSB bikes:
Most of the CRT-s are private developed machines (except the Aprilia which seems a modificated WSB bike), while the top WSB machines has a huge factory backup/support.


+ for CRT-s:
CRT-s has less weight & carbon brakes


Some interesting fact:

In 2010 Suzuki GP bike was a little bit slower in some track (Valencia) than Haslam's Suzuki. I also read this year that Chaca can run faster laps somewhere then the GP Ducs. So there are a very little margin between the top WSB bikes and the Top GP bikes (1-3 sec/lap depends of the track lenght & type). The margin between proto GP bikes & CRT looks the same with "similar qualited" riders.

Edited by Tarzaan, 02 December 2011 - 08:01.


#7614 SteF1an

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:19

German MotoGP round to be confirmed at the Sachsenring today. :up:

#7615 Tarzaan

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:47


http://www.superbiketv.com/?cat=5

DUCATI
Althea Racing: Carlos Checa, Davide Giugliano
Team Effenbert: Sylvain Guintoli, Jacub Smrz, Maxime Berger
Team PATA: Noriyuki Haga***
Team Ducati Roma: Niccolò Canepa

APRILIA
Aprilia Racing Team: Max Biaggi, Eugene Laverty
Team ParkinGO: Chaz Davies

BMW
BMW Motorrad Motorsport: Marco Melandri, Leon Haslam
BMW Motorrad Italia SBK Team: Ayrton Badovini, Michel Fabrizio

HONDA
Castrol Honda: Jonathan Rea, Hiroshi Aoyama

KAWASAKI
Kawasaki Provec Team: Joan Lascorz, Tom Sykes
Team Pedercini: Mark Aitchison (?), Leandro Mercado (?)

SUZUKI
Samsung Crescent Racing: John Hopkins, Leon Camier


***
Il Team Pata lascia la casa di Noale preferendole Ducati. In sella alla 1098R il confermato Norijuki Haga. Dopo un anno sabbatico, il 2012 potrebbe vedere il rientro di Davide Tardozzi. I posti di team manager vacanti nel team ufficiale Aprilia e nello stesso Team Pata rappresentano una ghiotta occasione.

#7616 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:51

Gresini has confirmed that Bautista will not have a full factory RC213V

Edit: and has confirmed Pirro on a FTR Honda CRT

#7617 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 13:04

Casey Stoner: All the riders hate each other and they think they need to hate each other to beat each other.

#7618 Tarzaan

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 14:39

Gresini has confirmed that Bautista will not have a full factory RC213V

Edit: and has confirmed Pirro on a FTR Honda CRT



Hmm. HRC Boss(?) told something else earlier...

#7619 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 14:59

Hmm. HRC Boss(?) told something else earlier...

Yeah, I was under the impression all satellite RC213Vs started the season as full factory and those that did best kept them but now that its only 2 factory and 2 satellite it may be different and that both satellite bikes will start at the same non-factory spec and first factory hand me downs go the best performing bike.

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#7620 beanoid

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:38

Casey Stoner: All the riders hate each other and they think they need to hate each other to beat each other.


I think he's mistaking that for all the riders hate *him*. :lol:

#7621 TFLB

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:48

Yeah, I was under the impression all satellite RC213Vs started the season as full factory and those that did best kept them but now that its only 2 factory and 2 satellite it may be different and that both satellite bikes will start at the same non-factory spec and first factory hand me downs go the best performing bike.

So is Bautista contracted to Gresini, not HRC like Simoncelli was? Would that be the reason for him not having the factory bike?

#7622 primer

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 16:20

So is Bautista contracted to Gresini, not HRC like Simoncelli was? Would that be the reason for him not having the factory bike?

Yes, I think so. HRC watch everything though, so if he is special he will get factory spec, eventually.

#7623 Reinmuster

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 18:07

I thought Simoncelli was contracted to Gresini and that the team get a deal to run a factory spec bike for him...




#7624 hotstickyslick

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 02:10

I think he's mistaking that for all the riders hate *him*. :lol:

If Stoner's such a terrible person, you have to wonder how he's friends with Chaz Davies. :well:

#7625 beanoid

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 04:10

It was a *joke*.

And anyway, Chaz doesn't race in GP. :D

#7626 piszkosfred

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:36

Yeah, I was under the impression all satellite RC213Vs started the season as full factory and those that did best kept them but now that its only 2 factory and 2 satellite it may be different and that both satellite bikes will start at the same non-factory spec and first factory hand me downs go the best performing bike.

I don't think San Carlo will pay the same amount of money for Bautista as for Simoncelli. (italian sponsor needs italian rider) So the bike is factory spec maybe, but Gresini can't afford that pricey gearbox now I suppose. Also the Repsol bikes are always more factory supported than the others.

#7627 Tarzaan

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 10:29

2012 - MotoGP, WSB, Moto2, WSP, AMA, BSB :wave:

#7628 primer

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 12:44

lol @ this FIM Gala picture. So awkward. Does anyone know who the kid is?

#7629 Arn

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 17:52

lol @ this FIM Gala picture. So awkward. Does anyone know who the kid is?

So Stoner didnt even bother to show up? :lol:

#7630 Rob

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 18:30

Is that Foggy grinning over the shoulder of a pensive Nico Terol? :D

#7631 carbuff

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 03:15

Is that Foggy grinning over the shoulder of a pensive Nico Terol? :D


Good spot, yes it looks like Foggy.


#7632 primer

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:36


Spain has so many races, wouldn't mind if they lost one when US or India are part of the motoGP racing calendar.

#7633 Risil

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:19

Spain has so many races, wouldn't mind if they lost one when US or India are part of the motoGP racing calendar.


Wouldn't want to swap a Spanish race for an unattended one in India. We've heard a slightly nauseating amount about The Love of Formula One™ Among The Largest Middle Class In The World, but MotoGP? Jerez is one of those events that makes MotoGP stand out. Wonder what the corporate hospitality sales are like for the Spanish circuits. If MotoGP's anything like Premier League football, that's where the serious money gets made.

#7634 GSiebert

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:32

Guys use the 2012 thread now.;)

#7635 Risil

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:48

Guys use the 2012 thread now. ;)


Check the date. ;) ;)

Edited by Risil, 09 December 2011 - 12:48.


#7636 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 13:27

Jokes and emoticons aside. Seeing that the 2011 season is officially over and they have had all the prize givings and stuff do a really have to be petty and post in this thread until midnight on the 31st?

Everything that happens now is about 2012.