90 replies to this topic

[Criceto]

Can anyone help a poor Pommy who has no access to primary archives on the Greatest Touring Car Race In The World? I am trying to find the dates on which the James Hardie/Ferodo/FAI 1000 was run during its history. I'm sorted for the last decade, but the period 1960-1990 was very poorly reported over here.

A link to an archive of runners, riders and results would be nice, but I'm not expecting miracles. If I can at least get the dates the race was held, that will help my database enormously.

Anyone able to help?

[Ray Bell]

From 1963 it has always been run on the first Sunday in October, no variation in that during that period.
Actually, that's wrong... it can be on September 30. It's the holiday weekend that comes with the first Monday in October, so it is always the Sunday that's September 30 to October 6.
If nobody comes back with the dates for 60 to 62 I'll dig out the book, it's in a box somewhere.
Actually, I think there is a site somewhere, PM Falcadore, he's into that stuff...[p][Edited by Ray Bell on 01-05-2001]

[Criceto]

Thanks Ray, that's a great help to start me off.

You mention "the book". Is there a definitive title I ought to start lobbying Chaters/Chris Knapman/Simon Lewis for?

[Ray Bell]

'The Great Race'... Chevron Publishing (Sydney), Bill Tuckey etc, covers thirty years I think.
I have several books that cover it for one year at a time, all from the eighties.

[Milan Fistonic]

Criceto

As Ray has said there has been a book published every year on the Great Race since 1981. As well there have been two books that have covered the complete history of the race. The first by Bill Tuckey was published in 1981 and covers the races up till 1980. It is titled Australia's Greatest Motor Race - The Complete History. In 1990 there was a second book that covered the first 30 years of the race - that's up to 1989.
Recently Chevron have released a third book that takes in the first 40 years of the race. It is a limited edition numbered book that has 496 pages and costs AUS$165 plus AUS$33 postage. Chevron's e-mail address is sales@chevron.com.au or you could check out Pit Stop Bookshop's web site at www.pitstop.net.au.

[Ray Bell]

And I've had a look for the Tuckey book and I can't find it... things are a bit disorderly here because I haven't been able to unpack, especially because I don't have sufficient shelf space for all the books.

[Barry Lake]

Criceto

If you buy one of these books you should buy the latest, 40 Year, version. This is not only because it has the extra 10 years of information, but because a lot of the mistakes in the results of the earlier ones have been corrected (thanks to researcher Scott McKay and researcher/writer David Greenhalgh).

Unfortunately no-one has yet been willing to tackle the eradication of errors, misinformation etc in the earlier race stories. They are reprinted as they were in the earlier editions.

In the early days there were no official lap charts released and very few of the competing teams ever knew for sure where they were running. I have seen the charts of even the top teams, often totally inaccurate after the team scorers had missed cars.

It would be a nightmare to try to sort out. Scott McKay would be the man to do it. He has devoted decades now to tracking down the drivers and speaking to them. Unfortunately, Scott doesn't seem to have a bent for writing. His main thrust was to correct mistakes in the results, find out who REALLY drove a particular car (rather than who was entered) and that sort of thing.

Whether or not he has recorded anything more than information relevant to the final result I do not know.

But the true history of those early races, especially the ones at Phillip Island, sorely needs doing before it is lost forever.

Doug Stewart and Barry Lloyd, both of whom drove there, have told me the actual drivers were very different from the published drivers.

[Ray Bell]

Magazine reports are wanting too, then Barry?
I guess you'd have some of them...

[Falcadore]

How did I possibly miss this thread?

Here's a starting point.

http://www.ecn.net.a...b/bath-stat.htm

There's you'll find top ten results (and class winners) for as much of the endurance saloon races at Bathurst as I can. Included are the Bathurst 1000 and associated races (1960-1999), the Bathurst Classic (1997-2000), the Bathurst 12 Hour and associated race (1991-1995) and Bathurst 3 Hour (1997-2000)

What data I have is by no means complete, I have very little information on the 1962 Bathurst 6 Hour and not enough for my liking on the 1991 Bathurst 12 Hour.

If you require more information than this let me know. BTW - Barry Lake - do you require updates of material sent to you previously including information from this years Bathurst events?

Another website of interest is this, the complete history of the Australian V8Supercar class,
http://conrod.com.au/stats/
[p][Edited by Falcadore on 02-18-2001]

[Ray Bell]

Mark, do you have the Tuckey book and can you thus give Criceto the answer to the question he asked?
That was: What were the dates of the races?
I've given him the Bathurst dates, but I don't have anything on the Phillip Island races.
I'd reckon you have them... but your website doesn't.

just trying to help the guy get his question answered...

[Falcadore]

Dates are as follows

20/11/60 1960 Armstrong 500 (Phillip Island)
19/11/61 1961 Armstrong 500 (Phillip Island)
22/10/62 1962 Armstrong 500 (Phillip Island)
06/10/63 1963 Armstrong 500
04/10/64 1964 Armstrong 500
03/10/65 1965 Armstrong 500
02/10/66 1966 Gallaher 500
01/10/67 1967 Gallaher 500
06/10/68 1968 Hardie-Ferodo 500
05/10/69 1969 Hardie-Ferodo 500
04/10/70 1970 Hardie-Ferodo 500
03/10/71 1971 Hardie-Ferodo 500
01/10/72 1972 Hardie-Ferodo 500
30/09/73 1973 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
06/10/74 1974 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
05/10/75 1975 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
03/10/76 1976 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
02/10/77 1977 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
01/10/78 1978 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
30/09/79 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
05/10/80 1980 Hardie-Ferodo 1000
04/10/81 1981 James Hardie 1000
03/10/82 1982 James Hardie 1000
02/10/83 1983 James Hardie 1000
30/09/84 1984 James Hardie 1000
06/10/85 1985 James Hardie 1000
05/10/86 1986 James Hardie 1000
04/10/87 1987 James Hardie 1000
02/10/88 1988 Tooheys 1000
01/10/89 1989 Tooheys 1000
30/09/90 1990 Tooheys 1000
06/10/91 1991 Tooheys 1000
04/10/92 1992 Tooheys 1000
03/10/93 1993 Tooheys 1000
02/10/94 1994 Tooheys 1000
01/10/95 1995 Tooheys 1000
06/10/96 1996 AMP Bathurst 1000
05/10/97 1997 AMP Bathurst 1000
04/10/98 1998 AMP Bathurst 1000
03/10/99 1999 Bob Jane T-Marts Bathurst 500

Other Races
30/09/62 1962 Bathurst 6 Hour (??)
31/03/91 1991 James Hardie 12 Hour
19/04/92 1992 James Hardie 12 Hour
11/04/93 1993 James Hardie 12 Hour
03/04/94 1994 James Hardie 12 Hour
18/10/97 1997 Eagle Boys Bathurst 3 Hour
19/10/97 1997 Primus 1000 Classic
14/11/98 1998 OAMPS Insurance Bathurst 3 Hour
15/11/98 1998 FAI Bathurst 1000
02/10/99 1999 Bob Jane T-Marts Bathurst 100
03/10/99 1999 Bob Jane T-Marts Bathurst V8 300
13/11/99 1999 Bathurst 3 Hour
14/11/99 1999 FAI Bathurst 1000
18/11/00 2000 Super Cheap Auto Bathurst 3 Hour
19/11/00 2000 FAI Bathurst 1000

[Criceto]

Falcadore, you are an absolute star!

Thank you! And that link to the top-tens was a glorious bonus. Actually helped me tidy up several glitches I had in my own records.

Even better, your site had dates I needed for the V8 Supercar series as well. Fantastic!

[Falcadore]

Criceto,
Pleased to be of service sir! Just remember to enter the V8SP10 next year!

VESRIX & V8SP10 are sister sites, both are shortly to be relaunched for the 2001 season under a new label, details on Jan 26. We've got a image library built up for starters - some of which has been on the V8SP10 this year, and I've seen the new graphics - sweet. Leaves the old AMIB looking very dated indeed.
http://v8sp10.nectar.com.au/

Additionally - I just updated a few bits and pieces on the old AMIB page - including the page I referred to you earlier, the primary addition was the one-off 1999 Bathurst V8 300.

Also currently redeveloping the old Australian Touring Car Championship page on AMIB to include complete championship scores and top three places at each round. I run into a couple of problems in the mid 80's here though, but I'll press on best I can.
http://www.ecn.net.a.../satcc-stat.htm

Ray - give me a chance lotta dates to be typed - probly had it half typed when you responded. Plus had a visitor arrive part way through! Keyboard will only take so much in the way of punishment.

Criceto - get the Greenhalgh/Tuckey book if you can, if there are copies still available, the standard of photography is fantastic and worth it for the price alone. To see the evolution of the Mountain in pictures since 1963, and to observe the camera angles used, especially for myself when I've compared my own photographic efforts at the Mountain.
http://www.ecn.net.a...ib/ph-index.htm

Plus the narrative written by Bill Tuckey & David Greenhalgh is evocative and helps capture the feel of the Mountain, I confess to be a fan of Tuckey's, and that he's influenced my own meagre efforts.

[Barry Lake]

Mark (Falcadore)

I don't know why I didn't think of you immediately when Criceto asked for the dates. Can you believe I actually was going to sit down and go through all the books for them?

Much easier to have asked you!

Yes, thank you, any and all updates, lists of dates etc are always welcome. I will be glad to see them.

You need to have contact with Scott McKay about missing results. I am due to call him (overdue), so will see what he has to say when I do contact him.

[cooper997]

Well this topic/thread has been sleeping for nearly a decade, but with its appropriate title I've cranked it up again.

On Sunday, November 20th 1960, fifty years ago today, an event that would go on to change the face of motor racing in Australia held its inaugural event. The Armstrong 500 (mile) was run at Phillip Island circuit and conducted by the Light Car Club of Australia, as the "World's Richest Production Saloon Car Race!" with backing from Armstrong York Engineering Pty Ltd (the Australian arm of the shock absorber/damper people). All from advertising man, Ron Thoneman's idea. With both conditional & unconditional prize monies on offer of £5855 in total. A huge prize pool in 1960 terms.

To begin with, the basic criteria for gaining an entry being 100 examples of a car had to have been produced or assembled in Australia and then sold to the general public. Getting car manufacturers/assemblers on board was the early plan, BMC Australia sent 6 cars and took it seriously enough to have hired the circuit the month before for practice. Chrysler Australia entered 3 Simca Arondes & Australian Motor Industries sent along 2 Triumph Herald & 1 Vanguard entries. Plus others sent their cars too.

Five car classes took part.
Class A - up to 750cc. NSU Prinz, Fiat 600, Renault 750s & Lloyd Alexanders.
Class B - 751cc to 1300cc. Ford Anglia, Triumph Herald, Renault Dauphine, Simca Aronde.
Class C - 1301cc to 2000cc. Standard Vanguard, Peugeot 403, Austin Lancer/Morris Major, Hillman Minx/Singer Gazelle.
Class D - 2001cc to 3500cc. Ford Falcon, M-Benz 220SE, Humber Super Snipe, Vauxhall Cresta.
Class E - 3501cc and over. Ford Customline

History tells that controversy has reigned in regards whether there was officially a classified outright winner for the Phillip Island era Armstrongs, just class winners usually. There was certainly an Outright Winner's prize offered for 1960 - Beachcombers Estate offered £150 prize money. That should have gone to the lone SA Cheney entered Class D Vauxhall Cresta of Frank Coad & John Roxburgh. They took their class honours having covered the 167 laps in the least time - 8 hours, 20 mins & 45 secs. Coad & Roxburgh received the winners laurel from Sir Herbert Opperman. It was enough for Vauxhall Motors Ltd advertising dept back in Luton to spruik the word with full page adverts appearing in the UK weeklies, such as Autocar & Autosport in early 1961 issues.

From that point on controversy began and special editions or massaged standard cars would start appearing. It would run at Phillip Island for just 3 years and then move to Bathurst's famous Mt Panorama circuit in 1963 where it has run annually in various guises ever since.

If Ray Bell doesn't mind I might scan & email the programme cover for him to add it to this topic.

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

Ray Bell certainly doesn't mind...

Add whatever relevant information you might like!

[Lee Nicolle]

Well this topic/thread has been sleeping for nearly a decade, but with its appropriate title I've cranked it up again.

On Sunday, November 20th 1960, fifty years ago today, an event that would go on to change the face of motor racing in Australia held its inaugural event. The Armstrong 500 (mile) was run at Phillip Island circuit and conducted by the Light Car Club of Australia, as the "World's Richest Production Saloon Car Race!" with backing from Armstrong York Engineering Pty Ltd (the Australian arm of the shock absorber/damper people). All from advertising man, Ron Thoneman's idea. With both conditional & unconditional prize monies on offer of £5855 in total. A huge prize pool in 1960 terms.

To begin with, the basic criteria for gaining an entry being 100 examples of a car had to have been produced or assembled in Australia and then sold to the general public. Getting car manufacturers/assemblers on board was the early plan, BMC Australia sent 6 cars and took it seriously enough to have hired the circuit the month before for practice. Chrysler Australia entered 3 Simca Arondes & Australian Motor Industries sent along 2 Triumph Herald & 1 Vanguard entries. Plus others sent their cars too.

Five car classes took part.
Class A - up to 750cc. NSU Prinz, Fiat 600, Renault 750s & Lloyd Alexanders.
Class B - 751cc to 1300cc. Ford Anglia, Triumph Herald, Renault Dauphine, Simca Aronde.
Class C - 1301cc to 2000cc. Standard Vanguard, Peugeot 403, Austin Lancer/Morris Major, Hillman Minx/Singer Gazelle.
Class D - 2001cc to 3500cc. Ford Falcon, M-Benz 220SE, Humber Super Snipe, Vauxhall Cresta.
Class E - 3501cc and over. Ford Customline

History tells that controversy has reigned in regards whether there was officially a classified outright winner for the Phillip Island era Armstrongs, just class winners usually. There was certainly an Outright Winner's prize offered for 1960 - Beachcombers Estate offered £150 prize money. That should have gone to the lone SA Cheney entered Class D Vauxhall Cresta of Frank Coad & John Roxburgh. They took their class honours having covered the 167 laps in the least time - 8 hours, 20 mins & 45 secs. Coad & Roxburgh received the winners laurel from Sir Herbert Opperman. It was enough for Vauxhall Motors Ltd advertising dept back in Luton to spruik the word with full page adverts appearing in the UK weeklies, such as Autocar & Autosport in early 1961 issues.

From that point on controversy began and special editions or massaged standard cars would start appearing. It would run at Phillip Island for just 3 years and then move to Bathurst's famous Mt Panorama circuit in 1963 where it has run annually in various guises ever since.

If Ray Bell doesn't mind I might scan & email the programme cover for him to add it to this topic.

Stephen

This is an anniversary of some importance that i would have missed through apathy!!
Though one thing of interest is a Vanguard being entered in under 2 litre. They were about 2200 cc!

[cooper997]

This is an anniversary of some importance that i would have missed through apathy!!
Though one thing of interest is a Vanguard being entered in under 2 litre. They were about 2200 cc!

Lee,

You've just unearthed a 50 year old c*ck-up! I probably should have studied a bit harder when I was putting together my earlier post. I rattled off the cars as they appear in the official programme and the Vanguard is (incorrectly) listed in Class C. Referring back to the programme and its capacity is listed as 2088cc.

Then referring back to the Light Car Club of Australia magazine gives a result for the John French/Norm Beechey/Jim McKeown AMI Vanguard in its correct Class D - it was second in class to the Cresta.

Stephen

[brucemoxon]

Lee,

You've just unearthed a 50 year old c*ck-up! I probably should have studied a bit harder when I was putting together my earlier post. I rattled off the cars as they appear in the official programme and the Vanguard is (incorrectly) listed in Class C. Referring back to the programme and its capacity is listed as 2088cc.

Then referring back to the Light Car Club of Australia magazine gives a result for the John French/Norm Beechey/Jim McKeown AMI Vanguard in its correct Class D - it was second in class to the Cresta.

Stephen

Hmm - so when did they change to classes based on price?

The V8 Cookie-cutters a 'celebrating 50 years of the ATCC' today at Sandown - but wasn't the Gnoo Blas race in February? They're calling it the 'Heritage Round' and announcing the 50 best ATCC / V8 drivers of all time. Groan.

And Phillip Island might still have had the race if they could have got heavy equipment over the bridge to lay hotmix on the track, according to Chevron Publishing's Steve Normoyle. As they could only get smaller plant and trucks over the old wood bridge, they could only put down a cold tarmac mix at Phillip Island. When the heavy sedans broke up the surface, they moved the race to Bathurst.


Bruce Moxon

[cooper997]

Bruce,

1962 was the first year that the classes were based on prices, not engine capacity.

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

From Stephen:

[cooper997]

Thanks for adding the programme and magazine images Ray.

Stephen

[smeetsie]

Hi all

The early "Massey Fergusson" 4 cylinder Vanguard/Triumph motor was a long stroking 2.2 litre. The later Vanguard engines were the Triumph 2000 under 2 litre 6 cylinder....which was also used at reduced capacity in the Herald Vitesse in UK.

Regards
Pete S

[Ray Bell]

'Ferguson', not 'Massey-Ferguson' to my knowledge...

And in the cars they came in a variety of size up to, IIRC, 2088cc. Early Vanguards were under 1800, again, IIRC.

[smeetsie]

It is a standing joke with mates in the TR2, 3 and 4 Triumph brigade that they have Massey Ferguson tractor engines....you know.... the Grey ones that used to tow rubbish trailers.....

Pete S

[Ray Bell]

T20 or something, I think they were designated...

There are clubs all over Australia where fanciers of these machines gather and polish up their grey paint. Having original implements is of prime concern to them, too.

[Lee Nicolle]

Ghansvard 4 cyl engine is 134ci which is about 2200 or so where 2080 came from I do not know. Someone took a guess I suggest.They were all the same capacity from 48 through to 60/61 but the later ones had a bit more compression etc and went a bit harder. They were quicker than an early Holden and a damn sight heavier. Though you could make a Holden go harder far cheaper.
TR4s are quite quic with the same basic engine.The TR6/ Vanguard 6 is an entirely different engine, smaller cube and revs far harder.
The original grey Fergie use the tractor version [entirely different block] but the later red Massey Fergusens were still using it until I guess around 1970. We had one which was a good little tractor in the late 70s. They were a[standard] petrol only engine, would not run on kero. That was the province of Fordsons.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 22 November 2010 - 19:55.

[Ellis French]

Adding a bit of Colour from the 70's...

[Lee Nicolle]

The Hardly Feroscious 1000 ! How brakes have changed. Todays roadcar brakes bite harder and last longer. The pads they used in those GpC cars only slowed down, same callipers now they stop wiyh modern materal.
I have a set of brand new mid 70s pads. They make a good paperweight!!

[275 GTB-4]

Searched TNF...(hee hee...like trying to find a needle in a haystack)

Reading a recent Uneek Cars...I was fascinated by the letter of the month from Jack DeVries in John Wrights column
...recounting the controversy with the Frank Coad Cresta..and the CAMS apology following an investigation by Graham Hoinville in 1992. Chevron followed with a letter of apology in 2002.

Interesting also to read that the Cresta did a 500 mile rehearsal at the track a few weeks before....

[GMACKIE]

What did they apologise for, Mick?

Next year [October, 2013] will be 50 years since the first 'big' race at Bathurst. Perhaps there could be a 'parade' of cars and drivers from 1963?

Not sure how many drivers are still around, but it wouldn't be too hard for me to get hold of an Alabaster Beetle, like the one I drove in '63........if I'm still on the 'right side of the turf'.

Any other starters?

[wagons46]

Next year (October,2013) will be 50 years since the first 'big' race at Bathurst. Perhaps there could be a 'parade' of cars and drivers from 1963?

In fact THIS year is the 50th race at Bathurst, and I think there are some plans to celebrate the fact. Next year will be 12 mths after the 50th race.

Edited by wagons46, 03 July 2012 - 22:48.

[brucemoxon]

In fact THIS year is the 50th race at Bathurst, and I think there are some plans to celebrate the fact. Next year will be 12 mths after the 50th race.

Indeed. There are plans for a celebration of the 50th race - owners of 'significant' cars are invited to bring them for display and maybe a parade. Greg, you should contact the folks at Southport and tell them you're still around - don't be surprised if they've never heard of you though! Maybe you and Barry Ferguson should just arrive in a pair of those stripped-down 1200s with the grey bumper bars...




Bruce Moxon

[GMACKIE]

How'd you work that out? Wouldn't next year [2013] be the 50th anniversary of the 1963 race?........or am I older than I thought?

[wagons46]

You just have to add them up. Unlike birthdays you don't have to wait 12 months to have one. If you Google 'Bathurst Great Race 50 years" there are a number of sites referring to it.

[GMACKIE]

Oh, so it's the 50th race, not the 50th anniversary.

[275 GTB-4]

What did they apologise for, Mick?

Still reading it/investigating it Greg...but I gather it was over the number of laps completed....the Cresta finished (finally acknowledged by CAMS) about 3 laps in front of the Pug in Class C (which I assume had been credited with the outright win....)

PS fixed my oil leak!
PPS Dubbers would need to take two vehicles each to the "50th celebration" to achieve the correct number of cylinders required ;)

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 04 July 2012 - 09:40.

[racer69]

Oh, so it's the 50th race, not the 50th anniversary.

Its the 52nd race, given that both races from 1997 and 1998 are recognised in the 'history' of the event.

[Ray Bell]

50th Anniversary relates to the number of years, nothing else...

So 2013 is Bathurst's 500/1000 50th Anniversary.

[GMACKIE]

If you Google 'Bathurst Great Race 50 years" there are a number of sites referring to it.

Did that. They're saying that 2012 is the 50th anniversary.

Looks like Ray Bell and I are the only ones who have got it right [so far]. 2013 is the 50th anniversary.

[john medley]

.... or
1938 to 2013 = 75 years of Mt Panorama

[GMACKIE]

Next year could be - and SHOULD be - a big year for Bathurst.

[Lee Nicolle]

Its the 52nd race, given that both races from 1997 and 1998 are recognised in the 'history' of the event.

There has been a lot more races than that. The Easter meeting for bikes, the various Production Car events.
The history for Touring Car Events really follows the 'accepted' events. So just because of a date change the 2 litre race is not accepted as such. History yes but not part of the ever changing continuity of events.

[Ray Bell]

2012 is the 50th anniversary of the 6-hour race, however...

And that was the first endurance race at Bathurst. A race, I feel, that has had very little recognition.

[wagons46]

2013 will be the running of the 51st 'Great Race' at Bathurst, which is the only race we are discussing, and as the V8 Supercar have controll of the race now and can really be the only body big and strong enough to have any influence in promoting a celebration , they have chosen to celebrate 50 races, correctly, this year 2012, whether we like it or not.
What the race has become over the last 20 years saddens many of the purists.

Edited by wagons46, 05 July 2012 - 05:25.

[Ray Bell]

On the other hand, the title of the thread mentions Phillip Island also...

The strand of the race certainly includes the Phillip Island events, it moved to Bathurst at a time when the ARDC were searching for something different for their October meeting (in my opinion, the ARDC had begun their loss of direction by this time) and hence it carried on from there.

Let's not also forget that it was probably someone like Mike Raymond who gave the event the 'Great Race' title, it's totally meaningless but enables one to escape the ever-increasing number of sponsors' names that have been applied to it over the years.

The 2-litre events cannot, in my opinion, be counted. They were an aberration in the lineage of races and the cause of the 'traditional' event losing its 'traditional' date.*

So what do we have? The 52nd Anniversary of the race this year, the 53rd running of the event this year.



* I wonder, in fact, whether the NRL Grand Final would be held on the October long weekend if the Bathurst date hadn't changed.

[wagons46]

I agree with all of that Ray.

[Lee Nicolle]

I agree with all of that Ray.

Seconded.

[wenoopy]

Did that. They're saying that 2012 is the 50th anniversary.

Looks like Ray Bell and I are the only ones who have got it right [so far]. 2013 is the 50th anniversary.

It's not the first time people have had problems of this kind!



(Quote from David Hodges' French Grand Prix book.)

Stu

[johnny yuma]

.... or
1938 to 2013 = 75 years of Mt Panorama

...........except the track lay dormant during 6 years of "hostilities" of a more dangerous nature....
and "proper racing" ceased in 1973 !

..add to that,the real charm of the Great Race disappeared in 1973 when post-factory modifying
became legal,and the drift away from your car racing your neighbour's car began,and was complete
when V8 Supercars arrived. Sad.

Edited by johnny yuma, 05 July 2012 - 05:32.