1385 replies to this topic

[ch103]

Mods - if this thread already exists please merge, i searched and could not locate a thread devoted solely to the test.

For the upcoming preseason test a few teams, McLaren, Force India, and Virgin have decided to use old cars instead of the new 2011 versions....

In my opinion, this is the better strategy than taking the new machine out for a shake down.

With the 2010 car you already have loads of data and you also know how to tweek the car to get more performance. By using that machine with a single new variable, Pirelli Tires, the engineers can analyze the impact of tires on the overall cars performance.

Teams running the 2011 cars are running the risk of having too many new variables to sort through when conducting their evaluations of their car.

I am beginning to get the feeling that no one is going to be in McLaren's league this year and it could very well be starting here......

Edited by ch103, 09 January 2011 - 12:09.

[iotar]

Obvious counter argument is:
How tyres behave in 2010 car is less important, what counts is how they work with completely new design - 2011 car.

Decision to run interim car in Valencia is based more on specific team/design development schedule (pros and cons) than on some advantage related to better understanding of the tyres. (IMVUO - very uneducated opinion).
Let's face it, it's only interesting because of McLaren (surprising move).

[ch103]

Obvious counter argument is:
How tyres behave in 2010 car is less important, what counts is how they work with completely new design - 2011 car.

Decision to run interim car in Valencia is based more on specific team/design development schedule (pros and cons) than on some advantage related to better understanding of the tyres. (IMVUO - very uneducated opinion).
Let's face it, it's only interesting because of McLaren (surprising move).

You're right, McLaren doing this does gives it credibility, imo, but this isnt the first time McLaren have been ahead when it comes to out engineering the other teams.

ex. flo vis, delta wing, f-duct.....

my feeling is that by isolating just the change in performance, due to tire changes, they can deduce what effect the tires have on a car that has alot of data.....

[AlanWake]

Fernando Alonso will debut the new F2011 that day in Valencia. I really can't wait...!

[ch103]

Fernando Alonso will debut the new F2011 that day in Valencia. I really can't wait...!

do you know if Ferrari are going to hold their "launch" of the car prior to the test or will this be the first time the car is seen?

[DracoN]

after 1 week see posts like this: " ferrari is 2 sec faster than others" or whatever car

[AvranaKern]

do you know if Ferrari are going to hold their "launch" of the car prior to the test or will this be the first time the car is seen?

Yeah, they said new car will be launced at the last week of January.

On the other hand Red Bull won't prepare a formal launch on the eve of tests, but still insisted that they use RRB7 right from the begining in Valencia.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88842

[ch103]

after 1 week see posts like this: " ferrari is 2 sec faster than others" or whatever car

or we can see them already!! just kidding....

[ch103]

Yeah, they said new car will be launced at the last week of January.

On the other hand Red Bull won't prepare a formal launch on the eve of tests, but still insisted that they use RRB7 right from the begining in Valencia.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88842

I get the feeling that the RB7 will be the third best car this year.....

I have nothing to base it on, but last season, it seems, they would not produce the car until they felt that the design was "perfect" and now this season, the RB7 will be built and on track from day 1.

The preseason tests will show very "interim" cars from each team and no car will look anything like the ones raced at Bahrain, there is so much data analysis and evolution to come from the engineers that I feel McLaren is doing the right thing by bringing in the 2010 car. Merely because they know what to expect with it and deduce what changes on the car the tires have.

[Seanspeed]

I get the feeling that the RB7 will be the third best car this year.....

I have nothing to base it on, but last season, it seems, they would not produce the car until they felt that the design was "perfect" and now this season, the RB7 will be built and on track from day 1.

The preseason tests will show very "interim" cars from each team and no car will look anything like the ones raced at Bahrain, there is so much data analysis and evolution to come from the engineers that I feel McLaren is doing the right thing by bringing in the 2010 car. Merely because they know what to expect with it and deduce what changes on the car the tires have.

Teams have already had a chance to directly test what effect the new tires have. Yes, the tires weren't in their final specification, but it wont have changed much.

And for me, the fact that Red Bull will have their car ready for the first test is a bit scary. I really dont see any inherent advantage in what Mclaren are doing. Especially since there's not just the new tires, but also KERS and the rear-wing adjuster to start getting down.

[ch103]

Teams have already had a chance to directly test what effect the new tires have. Yes, the tires weren't in their final specification, but it wont have changed much.

And for me, the fact that Red Bull will have their car ready for the first test is a bit scary. I really dont see any inherent advantage in what Mclaren are doing. Especially since there's not just the new tires, but also KERS and the rear-wing adjuster to start getting down.

ok, point taken, i overlooked the KERS and rear wing adjuster in my opening post...

I think that McLaren already have KERS understood better than anyone else, so I think they've got that covered.

As far as the rear wing adjuster is concerned, McLaren pioneered the F-Duct, which other teams shamelessly copied after its inseption.

This brings me back to thinking that McLaren are on to something here that no one else is.....

[goldenboy]

I get the feeling that the RB7 will be the third best car this year.....

I have nothing to base it on, but last season, it seems, they would not produce the car until they felt that the design was "perfect" and now this season, the RB7 will be built and on track from day 1.

The preseason tests will show very "interim" cars from each team and no car will look anything like the ones raced at Bahrain, there is so much data analysis and evolution to come from the engineers that I feel McLaren is doing the right thing by bringing in the 2010 car. Merely because they know what to expect with it and deduce what changes on the car the tires have.

well you get a for optimism!

Personally I think it's a not very good sign from mclaren, and a confident one for red bull, since, as you also say (and I agree), they are reluctant to do anything untill it's perfect.

[ch103]

well you get a for optimism!

Personally I think it's a not very good sign from mclaren, and a confident one for red bull, since, as you also say (and I agree), they are reluctant to do anything untill it's perfect.

You do have a point as far as RB7's confidence is concerned, the fact that they already built the car can be interpreted as they feel is perfect, however, they just went into a long championship battle with Ferrari, and to a lesser extent, McLaren, which (to me) has to have taken a toll on the teams reasources.

How can Newey focus a majority of his time designing a new car when the team needed his input into the final, vital, updates of 2010, which ended up winning the title with?

And it also can interpreted that McLaren are not confident since they "need" to see additional data in order to put the new car into production.... Based on the three reasons I've mentioned, I think McLaren has a wildcard up their sleeve... its happened time and time before.

[Seanspeed]

ok, point taken, i overlooked the KERS and rear wing adjuster in my opening post...

I think that McLaren already have KERS understood better than anyone else, so I think they've got that covered.

As far as the rear wing adjuster is concerned, McLaren pioneered the F-Duct, which other teams shamelessly copied after its inseption.

This brings me back to thinking that McLaren are on to something here that no one else is.....

Mclaren are possibly using an all-new KERS unit this year.

And the f-duct has nothing to do with the rear-wing adjuster, so I'm not sure how thats supposed to be any sort of advantage?

I mean, you seem to be going on gut instict here with your conclusion more than anything. I have those gut instincts, too, but I'm also well aware that they are very often wrong when it comes to trying to judge how good a car is going to be based on nothing but a few scant comments from the teams themselves.

There's nothing wrong with making predictions, sure, but I feel its a bit of a gamble. You're just shots in the dark here, so you're either gonna hit something and look like a genius, or you're gonna end up looking a little silly for even trying in the first place, ya know? I'll wait til somebody turns on the lights.

[goldenboy]

How can Newey focus a majority of his time designing a new car when the team needed his input into the final, vital, updates of 2010, which ended up winning the title with?

because he's newey

[ch103]

Mclaren are possibly using an all-new KERS unit this year.

And the f-duct has nothing to do with the rear-wing adjuster, so I'm not sure how thats supposed to be any sort of advantage?

I mean, you seem to be going on gut instict here with your conclusion more than anything. I have those gut instincts, too, but I'm also well aware that they are very often wrong when it comes to trying to judge how good a car is going to be based on nothing but a few scant comments from the teams themselves.

There's nothing wrong with making predictions, sure, but I feel its a bit of a gamble. You're just shots in the dark here, so you're either gonna hit something and look like a genius, or you're gonna end up looking a little silly for even trying in the first place, ya know? I'll wait til somebody turns on the lights.

lol, point taken, but this is what being a race "fan" is all about. Pulling for your sport and tossing around opinions and thought.

i have nothing but the historical examples of recent McLaren innovation, and judging from the article on the opening page of autosport, felt like a thread was needed for the test ( it would be nice if it was on T.V. but im not holding my breath) so i went ahead and started it.

if kers is new then you are correct, its a level playing field.

the rear wing adjuster, i thought, was introduced to eliminate the F-Duct but still give an overtaking advantage - mimicking the effect of the F-Duct.

[ch103]

because he's newey ;)

i give Newey his due credit, but F1 is a team sport. He may be capable of the workload but thats not to assume his staff is.

[midgrid]

Obvious counter argument is:
How tyres behave in 2010 car is less important, what counts is how they work with completely new design - 2011 car.

And the teams already ran with Pirellis on their 2010 cars at the Abu Dhabi test. Funny how neither Hamilton or Button did that, though...

[TURU]

And the teams already ran with Pirellis on their 2010 cars at the Abu Dhabi test. Funny how neither Hamilton or Button did that, though...

Maybe this is why they'll bring an old car to Valencia, to make up what they lost in Abu Dhabi test

[BRK]

Maybe McLaren are going down the Red Bull route and won't reveal what they're up to until the last test..

In which case we'll have two of the big teams sandbagging like hell this testing season.

[Seanspeed]

the rear wing adjuster, i thought, was introduced to eliminate the F-Duct but still give an overtaking advantage - mimicking the effect of the F-Duct.

While both systems have a goal of reducing drag, the way its acheived is quite different. The problem with the f-duct was to get air channeled to the rear wing through the bodywork in a way that would stall the rear wing effectively and predictably. The new rear wing adjuster isn't about stalling the rear wing through complicated engine cover channels or whatever, but the more conventional method of reducing drag by reducing wing angle.

[Disgrace]

How much testing will the third drivers get this winter season? I think in Paffetts case, he deputised the 2010 McLaren and that was it. With new tyres, it's going to be even more important that the race drivers get 100% of testing mileage.

And this is a shame.

Edited by Disgrace, 09 January 2011 - 15:06.

[Muz Bee]

How can anyone be taken seriously making bold claims for one team or another, especially his year?
We have Pirelli tyres which will roll the dice.
We have the re-entry of KERS after the top teams will have been developing them in private for 12 months or so.
The smart way to start testing would be to take the 2010 car with the 2011 or the "interim" car so a baseline is established. You can't trust comparing laptimes at these sessions as there's so much sandbagging that goes on.
That McLaren choose to only take the 2010 car is curious, maybe they have a lot of interim parts to try on a chassis they feel they understand quite well.
The Mercedes team chose to direct more of their energies to 2011 earlier and this could advantageous along with the fact they won't have to downsize their operation, job done.
Red Bull, well their wings come from a guy called Newey so they will still be near the front.
Ferrari didn't as I suspected a year ago, lose their mojo and have a great leader in their No 1 driver to pull all the factors together.
Could be 2011 will be as good as 2010, but still lacking overtaking at most tracks.

[mlsnoopy]

James Aleen thoughts on the first test

The Pirellis work fine on a 2010 car so by having well sorted reliable 2010 cars out there pounding around, Force India and McLaren will get through almost thousand kilometres and learn a lot.

All the other teams will hope to do likewise in Valencia, but with a brand new car there is always the risk of lots of time spent in the garage.

The other factor for McLaren is that race drivers Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton didn’t do the Abu Dhabi test as part of a deliberate ploy. So they will want the maximum time on the tyres to get a feel for them. When I spoke to Button about this at the final race he was adamant that the tyres will have changed a lot from the November test to February 1, so he wanted to maximise his mileage in February when the data would be more relevant.

These is probably the most important part.

[jjcale]

Late tyre test by the Macca race drivers??

[FigJam]

And for me, the fact that Red Bull will have their car ready for the first test is a bit scary. I really dont see any inherent advantage in what Mclaren are doing. Especially since there's not just the new tires, but also KERS and the rear-wing adjuster to start getting down.

My thoughts also. Going to be interesting to see where McLaren end up...

[Seanspeed]

My thoughts also. Going to be interesting to see where McLaren end up...

I doubt it will make much of a difference. The design is either good or it isn't. Mclaren obviously have a reason why they're doing what they're doing. I just dont think there's some advantage to what they're doing compared to the other teams.

[goldenboy]

I doubt it will make much of a difference. The design is either good or it isn't. Mclaren obviously have a reason why they're doing what they're doing. I just dont think there's some advantage to what they're doing compared to the other teams.

But isn't what they are doing similar to what RB did last year? (which seemed to work out ok for them!)

Apologies if it's not, I didn't follow the testing last year.

[ch103]

James Aleen thoughts on the first test



These is probably the most important part.

exactly what im talking about

[Captain Tightpants]

These is probably the most important part.

Gambling on the final build of the tyres having changed so much that they make the November data obsolete is a huge risk - but if McLaren are right and they pull it off, it could be a tactical masterstroke.

[FigJam]

I doubt it will make much of a difference. The design is either good or it isn't. Mclaren obviously have a reason why they're doing what they're doing. I just dont think there's some advantage to what they're doing compared to the other teams.

That's true...but Red Bull is the benchmark and their new car will be ready to fire immediately.

I find that ominous. Especially with Neweys record.

[seahawk]

Would there be a problem to bring one new and one old car to the tests?

Edited by seahawk, 10 January 2011 - 09:33.

[Seanspeed]

But isn't what they are doing similar to what RB did last year? (which seemed to work out ok for them!)

Apologies if it's not, I didn't follow the testing last year.

I never said its a bad thing, I just dont think its somehow a superior way to do it. Obviously, Red Bull aren't doing it this year.

[Desdirodeabike]

Great. I love winter testing threads. The reason I became a member of this forum in the first place.
My new years resolution is to make even more ludicrous assumptions on the cars performance than usual. And spice it up with ridiculous and baseless statements on how the year will progress based on a few timed laps. Bring it on

[Kraken]

I would think one of the major reasons for going with an interim car for the first test is to guarantee a level of reliability. McLaren will probably cover more miles than anyone else during that test and given that tyre warmup was one of their weaknesses last year I think getting as many miles as possible on the final specification tyres is a very sensible idea.

[Scotracer]

1st crazy predictions:

- RB7 isn't as good as the RB6 relative to the field
- Mclaren & Ferrari pretty much even
- Mercedes don't improve
- Renault keep on the heels of Mclaren and Ferrari
- BMW Sauber as fast as Renault

Okay, so they aren't so crazy.

[undersquare]

Well this first test is going to be a bit frustrating for us Mac fans, all those long-awaited test times and now the Mac times won't be comparable even in the normal "it's only testing" sort of way.

I guess we might get an idea if the Red Bull is another rocket ship, compared to the Ferrari.

Are the Merc and Renault going to be the 2011 cars, do we know?

[Clatter]

after 1 week see posts like this: " ferrari is 2 sec faster than others" or whatever car

Swiftly followed by "We don't know what the program was", "how much fuel they are running", "They are desperate for sponsors and are show boating"

[Ferrari2183]

I really don't see any advantage in what Mclaren are doing. Teams would want as much track time as possible with their new challengers. The data collected will also be invaluable even if it means spending a bit more time in the garage.
Mclaren may also find themselves in the situation where the Pirelli's suit their old car and not so much the new one. In that case it would have been better to test the new car from the get-go in order to iron out potential issues.

As for those who think that Mclaren are hiding something I would be willing to bet that if any team has a golden bullet it will only make it's way on to the car at a later test. Hell, I've read reports that say Ferrari have recovered much of the lost downforce related to the ban on the DDD.

[apoka]

With the 2010 car you already have loads of data and you also know how to tweek the car to get more performance. By using that machine with a single new variable, Pirelli Tires, the engineers can analyze the impact of tires on the overall cars performance.

Teams running the 2011 cars are running the risk of having too many new variables to sort through when conducting their evaluations of their car.

I am beginning to get the feeling that no one is going to be in McLaren's league this year and it could very well be starting here......

Maybe Red Bull just has a better base to build on from their previous 2009 and 2010 cars. If they perform less drastic changes, then they still get useful input even with all the new variables. They also tested Pirelli tires last year, which McLaren didn't do.

[BRK]

Actually people will be squabbling before any of the cars has done a single lap, judging chances of success by estimable size/shape of nosecone, sidepod undercut clearance etc before the cover is taken off of the beasts.

[Andy865]

How long is it till we see someone say 'wow, that front wing looks really fast and aggressive' haha, it happens without fail every year.

And yes Ferrari2183 I imagine most of the big teams will. Renault were saying a few months back the R31 has more downforce than the R30 ever produced.

[Don_Humpador]

Actually people will be squabbling before any of the cars has done a single lap, judging chances of success by estimable size/shape of nosecone, sidepod undercut clearance etc before the cover is taken off of the beasts.

"My nosecone's bigger than your nosecone."

[BRK]

"My nosecone's bigger than your nosecone."

"But then yours is droopy and sags while mine is nice and sharp!"

[ivand911]

"My nosecone's bigger than your nosecone."

"My nosecone's faster than your nosecone." Will be great times.

Edited by ivand911, 10 January 2011 - 12:15.

[Owen]

"My nosecone's faster than your nosecone." Will be great times.

Golden rule is; if your team/driver are slow then it's simply due to sand bagging of course. I think I remember using that one in 2009.

[Crafty]

I really don't see any advantage in what Mclaren are doing. Teams would want as much track time as possible with their new challengers. The data collected will also be invaluable even if it means spending a bit more time in the garage.
Mclaren may also find themselves in the situation where the Pirelli's suit their old car and not so much the new one. In that case it would have been better to test the new car from the get-go in order to iron out potential issues.

As for those who think that Mclaren are hiding something I would be willing to bet that if any team has a golden bullet it will only make it's way on to the car at a later test. Hell, I've read reports that say Ferrari have recovered much of the lost downforce related to the ban on the DDD.

The thing is they aren't running an "old car", its an interim car, so its not a 2010 car and it isn't the 2011 car that will start in Bahrain either.
Whenever you test something (could be anything, not necessarily a car or even motorsport related) and you have a bunch of variables you only really want to change one thing at a time, because if you change two things and see an improvement you don't know which change caused the improvement, it could be that the two things fought each other and you'd see a bigger improvement with just one of the changes, or that one had no effect or they both worked together..
So as others have said it could be that using a 2010 chassis they can get a baseline on where the tyres car, compared to the bridgestones. That could be useful to tell them how the chassis setup needs to differ for the pirellis.

Personally, I think they've already done this at the tail end of last year and will now run 2011 aero parts on a 2010 chassis, again using knowledge/data of the 2010 chassis as a baseline to test the 2011 aero. Lets not forget that the last two years (at least) the McLaren has been a bit of a turkey at the beginning of the season - they aren't stupid and must of had good wind tunnel figures on the aero that was devised, yet when mated with the chassis the two didn't work together very well, and I think they struggled to understand how or where the problems were - at that point they had to ask do we change aero or chassis ? or both ? if we make an aero change how will it affect the chassis and any potential changes we make there ?
They know the characteristics of the 2010 chassis now, so they can quantify the 2011 aero more accurately and not go down "blind alleys" with changes that are wrong, particularly to the chassis.
When the second test comes around they'll have some aero data to work on, so will be able to quantify the chassis performance with more accuracy.

I think its all a move to improve efficiency in the development cycle.

[Captain Tightpants]

And of course, over at Renault they'll be saying "My driver's nose is bigger than your nosecone" ...

[hankalis]

I would think one of the major reasons for going with an interim car for the first test is to guarantee a level of reliability. McLaren will probably cover more miles than anyone else during that test and given that tyre warmup was one of their weaknesses last year I think getting as many miles as possible on the final specification tyres is a very sensible idea.

the higher reliability argument only makes sense if you consider the 1st test in isolation: even if they enjoy better reliability at the first test, they will potentially loose track time during the second test when they introduce the new car.

[goldenboy]

Would there be a problem to bring one new and one old car to the tests?

no, one car only per team