448 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

For a friend of mine I am enquiring if anyone has a picture of the car Harry Smith drove in the 1951 Grand Prix at Narrogin.

[Ray Bell]

He survived 14 laps, so maybe there's one out there somewhere...

Have you any idea what type of car it is/was?

Terry Walker will be along some time, I'm sure, he might be able to help.

[Barry Boor]

Only that it was a 'Special'.

We live in hope (and Anglesey)

[David Shaw]

The West Australian on February 8th 1951 has entries for the W.A. Hillclimb Championship at Mundaring on February 24th 1951.

Among the entries is H. Smith (Ford Mercury).

[nivola]

Terry will have all the information for this one.

Roll on the 60th anniversary of this epic event.

[john medley]

Was this later the V8 driven by Glendenning?

[Ray Bell]

As you well know, John, there were many Ford V8s in that race...

More engines than cars, in fact. Though, to be fair, the suspension of the Ranford car was Ford V8 and the power unit wasn't, so that would even things up just a little.

Just browsing (as you do...) the very tattered copy of Around the Houses that forms part of the junk on my desk, I see that a Ross Smith is credited with entering a Mercury Special at Narrogin in 1948, coming third in the race, in fact. Ross Smith entered the '51 AGP in an MG-Vauxhall, so it is possible the Mercury Special went to a relative.

Other names attached to V8 Specials include:

John Motteran - 1952 Narrogin
Norm Buckingham - Goomalling 1953
Roy Posselt - 1939 Dowerin and Applecross
Claude LaMotte - 1947 Beverly (Mercury Spl) etc
Lionel Seeligson - 1936 Albany ('32 Ford Roadster)
Ray Hall - 1937 Albany
Wally LaMotte - 1947 Toodyay ('35 Ford cut down)
Harley Hammond - Marquette Special (I'm sure this wore a V8) Pingelly, Applecross

And these are exclusive of the cars we know so well:

Ballot V8 (Jack Nelson, Syd Barker, Rod Denney, Vin Smith, Bunny Court, Mick Geneve)
Ossie Cranston's car/s
Double V8 (Syd Anderson after purchase from Eldred Norman)
Ranford Chrysler, from the '51 AGP, which later went to V8 with Morrie Maurice, then George Wakelin

There were no doubt others, but clearly the Ford V8 didn't capture the hearts of the WA racers to the extent it did those in the East. And in all of this I found nothing on Glendenning except the photo of him at Narrogin chasing Negus - no idea what year that was. I suspect, however, that is one of the LaMotte cars.

Edited by Ray Bell, 10 January 2011 - 08:28.

[Terry Walker]

Harry Smith, a Narrogin identity and the powerhouse behind the Narrogin Car Club in the 50s, drove what is described as the Smith Spl, No 19, in the West Australian pre-race report:

START OF STORY

Maseratis On Scratch For Grand Prix
Handicaps have been issued for the Commonwealth Jubilee Grand Prix which will be held at Narrogin on March 5.
Some well-known Continental and Australian cars will be seen in action.

D. Murray, who is coming from England to compete in the race, will drive a six-cylinder super-charged Maserati. He is on scratch, together with G. Vennermark (Victoria), who also will drive a Maserati - a specially imported four-cylinder super-charged model formerly owned and driven by the late Raymond Sommer, the famous French driver. T. V. Hawkes, in a Talbot Lago. is handicapped on 1 min. and J. Crouch, who won the 1949 Australian Grand Prix at Leyburn Airfield, Queensland, is on 5min. in a Cooper 1100c.c., the fastest Cooper racing car in Australia. The Delahaye, in which Crouch won, is to be driven by R. Bland, a Bathurst bee farmer. His handicap is 7 1/2min. Lex Davison, the wealthy Victorian, who won the South Australian 1,500c.c. championship at the Australian Grand Prix meeting at Nuriootpa last year, has been handicapped on 5 1/2 min. in a supercharged Alfa Romeo. The West Australian entrants on the tightest marks are A. Mackintosh (Bartlett Special), W. Gibson (M.G. s/c) and D. Ranford (Chrysler special) on 14min.

The race will be over a distance of about 102 miles, consisting of 24 laps of the Narrogin road circuit. It will be conducted by the W.A. Sporting Car Club in co-operation with the Narrogin Jubilee Sports Council. Prize money will be £1,000 in addition to trophies

Handicaps

Number 1, D. Murray (England), Maserati 6CL s/c, 2. P. Vennermark (V.). Maserati 4CL s/c., scr:
3 T. V. Hawkes (V.). Talbot Lago, 1/2 min.
4. J. Crouch (N.S.W.). Cooper 1100, 5. J. P. Nind (N.S.W. ). Cooper 1100, 5 min
6. A. N. Davison (V.). Alfa Romeo s/c ; 7. K. Martin (V.), Cooper 1000, 8, "M. Nathan" (N.S.W.), Cooper 1000, 5 1/2 min
9 R. Bland (N.S.W.), Delahaye, 7 1/2 min
10, E. D. Norman (S.A.). Ford Special, 8 min;
11: A. Mackintosh (W.A.), Bartlett Special, 12: V. A. Maloney (V.), MG (TC) s/c, 14. W. Gibson (W.A.). MG (TD) s/c. 15. B. Ranford (W.A.), Chrysler Special, 16. G. R. Reed (N.S.W.), G. Reed special, 14 min
17, S Negus (W.A.). Plymouth special. 18, F. W. Pratley (N.S.W.). G. Reed Special, 19, H. Smith (W.A.). Smith special, 15 min;
20, D. E. Curran (V.). Ford V8 special, 21. N C Staple? (V.), MG (TC) s/c, 22, A. O. Watson (V.), HRG, 16 min
23, S. Anderson (W.A.), Chrysler Speedcar, 24. S. Barker (W.A.), Ford V8 Ballot, 25, R. S. Brown (S.A.), Alfa-V8. 26. D. Page (W.A.). Ranford special, 27, A. O. Watson (V.). Ballot Oldsmobile, 16 1/2 min;
28. C. F. Coxon (W.A.), Ford A special, 29, D G. Harvey (S.A.), M.G.. 17 min;
30, R. McKenna (V.), B.M.W., 31. W. Richards (W.A.). Morgan Plus 4. 17 1/2 min
32, J. A. Nelson (W.A.). Ford 10 special, 33. 5. A. Taylor (W.A.), T.S. special. 20 min
34, W. H. Hayes (S.A.), M.G. (1360c.c.), 21 min
35. R. Smith (W.A.), M.G. Vaux. s/c, 22 min
36, R. S. Brown (S.A. , MG.); 37. W. H. Hayes (S.A.). M.G.; 24 min
38, N. Aldous (W.A.), M.G. (indecipherable)?. 39, A. Collett (W.A.), M.G. (TC). 40, A. Dry (W.A.), M.G. (TC), 41. R. J. Kennedy (S.A.); M.G. (TC), 42, C. La Motte (W.A.), Fidget. 25 min;
43. A. Melrose (W.A. . M.G. (TD). 44, C. Uphill (W.A.). Morgan 4/4. 25 1/2 min

Handicaps for numbers 1, 14. 15. 19 and 43 are provisional. Number 29 will go back 3min. and number 32 2½mn. If engines are super charged.

END OF STORY

I don't have pics of every car in the race, although I think the Battyle Library Photo Collection might have. I don't have any pic of No 19. In order to fin d out if it was an existing car, or built specially for the GP, you'd have to fluke on a passing reference in a Narrogin or other paper commenting on the drivers. I just don't know.

[ken devine]

The Smith V8 Special




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[Ray Bell]

Hey Ken, you just rewrote WA racing history!

That is so unlike anything I'd ever expect to see, so unlike all the other cars in the race, amazing.

And aren't those front wheels interesting? We've got to find out more about this car...

[ken devine]

This is the Glendinning Ford V8 that was mentioned,the body of the car is in the hands of Jim Krajancich who owns the Duncan Ord
Bugatti it may be restored sometime.






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[john medley]

Perhaps this can be done by a process of elimination, and identification

I have perhaps scratched my candidate after looking at P74 Australian Motor Racing yearbook #1... says the pictured car ( quite a good looking if large thing)built 1947 by Ross Smith who ran it in 4 events including Narrogin 1948 , then later by John Glendenning( yes, Ray, the car chasing Negus at Narrogin, year unknown). Then again, as you say Ray, Harry may have been one of Ross' relations....

And on the other hand, the Harry Smith car must have been perceived to be quick, according to the handicaps above. Just note that Ross Smith placed twice with his V8 at various events, including ftd at a sprint meeting late 40s

I have a Battye Library pic of John Cummins in #27 Alan Watson's Ballot Oldsmobile leading the 16 1/2 minute markers away(numbers 26, 25, 24 listed above). Like Terry, I would back the Battye Library to have a pic -- and I believe I found the pic I have by searching the internet.

Dangerous to guess on the basis of what we think we have, but maybe if Harry was a mover and shaker and wanted a good and perhaps proven car -- which appears to otherwise not entered in the AGP( and WA Ford V8s were thin on the ground or very agricultural), The Harry and Ross Show might be a right guess -- AND Harry could easily defend the Smith Special title he bestowed even if he wasnt related to Ross

I feel a need to check the Battye Library pics on line -- or would it be easier for our Perth colleagues to hot foot it in there tomorrow?

[john medley]

TNF, you've done it again -- in conjunction with the speed and quality of my typing!

Yes, that's the Ross Smith/ Glendenning car

Yes, like Ray I am stunned about Harry: I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD MENTION OF HARRY'S NUMBER 19. WHAT IS IT? ( and I was sent all copies of The Visor from early 1950s...)

Barry Boor, you started all this trouble : why did you ask?

And thank you Ken Devine: odd, obscure, to many unimportant all this may be but for TNF True Believers this is our meat and drink. Great Stuff

But I still want to know more about Harry and his beast

[Ray Bell]

Damn you, John!

I was hoping that the least you would do when seeing that pic was identify the front wheels!

[ken devine]

How many Smiths were there racing? there was a W.Smith racing at Albany and Pinjelly in 1938 and drove in the patriotic Grand Prix
in 1940 in the stock car race as they were called then. The Albany car was different to the 51 GP car which to my knowledge never
raced again,i was told recently that it was kept at a service station in West Perth in the early 50s.

[john medley]

Not good enough , Ray

The FRONT wheels and the BACK wheels, the visible cooling details ( for Henry's Mobile Hot Water Service!!), the mirrors so distant from nearly everything they need to be close to, and that strangely familiar bonnet ornament

Just before that meeting Gavin Sanford Morgan and John Snow helped Warwick Pratley insert the no expense spared Snow imported Nuttbug engine into the George Reed Special Skate 2 so to the surprise of many Skate 2 won the 1951 Australian Grand Prix. HARRY SMITH WAS OFF THE SAME HANDICAP MARK.......

[Terry Walker]

Front wheels look model A to me, possibly cut to accept smaller diameter rims.

The car obviously made so few appearances that it didn't get much lens time. Many thanks Ken - I know you told me about that car, but I must have had a senior moment and forgot every word of it as fast as I was told.

[Ray Bell]

You're right, Terry, A-Model Ford...

So it's likely built on an A-Model chassis, or B-Model or '32 V8. I was thinking the wheels might be a clue to an independent front end, but that's clearly not so.

[cammo77]

hey I've seen this car recently, there was a guy at the ballarat swap meet with a photo of it taken in the last 12 months wanting some information about it, it's definitely the same car!

[Ray Bell]

I've had a phone call and e.mails from someone who has recent photos...

But there are never any photos attached to the e.mails.

[KarlLeFong]

The Smith V8 Special




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Looks like an XK120 out of TR2...

Pity Jaguar engjnes werent cheaper

[Terry Walker]

I've had an email too, but it was unclear. Sender wanted to confirm an email addres, I assume Barry Boor's, which I don't know and wouldn't give out anyway. I suggested a PM through here. Haven't heard anything since.

[Barry Boor]

Ray told me all about this chap. He had my e-mail address with one letter wrong. Ray has corrected it but I've heard nothing.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Looks like an XK120 out of TR2...

Pity Jaguar engjnes werent cheaper

Yes, the body style is right up to date for early 1951 (the race was in March)...

And to put it into perspective, Jaguar XK engines at the time were simply unobtainable. Remember that Colin Murray's purpose(s) in coming to the Narrogin race were to sell his tired old Maser to some colonial on the one hand and to buy any XK120s he could find to ship back to England, where they were difficult to purchase.

[ken devine]

The car was powered by a Ford V8.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Ken, we're well aware of that...

It's just that Stan has a prediliction for ensuring that the world knows that Australian motor racing went wrong many years ago when it diverged from all things Briddish.

[Wilyman]

Yes, Ken, we're well aware of that...

It's just that Stan has a prediliction for ensuring that the world knows that Australian motor racing went wrong many years ago when it diverged from all things Briddish.

Ken and Terry may recall the correspondence I submitted to the "SpeedWest" forum re the Smith V8. ["The Mystery Car"]
In past years it appeared in Tasmania, described as an Allard. The then owner has since passed away.
A friend visiting Phillip Island three or four years back saw the car, he said it featured in an Allard display?

The same friend along with myself remember seeing in 1960 the same car in a Kalgoorlie/Boulder garage. The owner had plans for it that came to nought.
The body as I recall looked a scaled up XK120 being larger and wider. The wheels were wire Ford type, "A" model or later.
The engine was a side valve Ford V8, '30's -'40's with original 3 speed box. The rear axle was a De Dion type. The front axle was a split beam Ford a la Allard?
Later pictures of the car showed it with Ford disc wheels, 16" ? from a '40's Ford. The same bolt pattern would make this a simple swap.
It wasn't hard to see how it had been claimed as an Allard with the running gear described. All this later disproved by an Allard Club person.

On reading of the cars history it amazed me that its body style and mechanicals seemed years ahead of its time as it was a "home built" special, built in a time of mostly "square rigged" and "cigar" bodied specials.

[cammo77]

Ken,

That Badge on the front of the car bonnet is really interesting, what car would it be from? and why doesn't the car have headlights and a grill? what a great photo... I wonder if anyone has another photo of it? Maybe the car might not exist anymore and was wrecked for parts or rapped around a tree.

[ken devine]

The bonnet mascot is similiar to the one that was an extra on the 48/125 Holden. The reason it had no lights or grille is because it
was entered as a racing car. In a motorbike racing photo i got last year taken around 1954 there is a very similiar looking car.in
the background parked sideon to the Caversham straight.

[ken devine]

It looks like the same car.





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[Wilyman]

It looks like the same car.





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Ken,
I have a cutting taken from Auto Action [year unknown] of the subject car. It shows a picture by Morey Photographics of the car now complete with two piece vertical bar grille. Headlights. Disc wheels with hubcaps. Aeroscreens for driver and passenger. Bumpers front and rear.
It was taken at the Baskerville 40th birthday event. Titled "One of the cars to feature at Baskerville recently was this 1947 V8 Allard".
It would seem that there was still some doubt of its provenance, now sorted.

[Ray Bell]

Baskerville's 40th anniversary was about 1999... can anyone contact Andrew Lamont and get possible pics from him from that event?

These pics have been sent by Rodney Williams. The first is, he understands, from soon after the car was dragged out of a swamp in Perth. The second when it had some work done on it, I guess.





Definitely the same car.

Note, also, the spots around the left hand door in the pic Ken posted. I wonder if they made him weld the door shut for the AGP?

In fact, was the AGP purely open to Racing Cars? It wasn't earlier, it wasn't later...

[Terry Walker]

Fantastic discovery - yes, that's it. Ford A wheels and all. There were a lot of MGs, doors and all, in the 51 AGP, so there was no rule about that. I suspect that a few quick welds was the only way the hold the bloody door shut for the race. Incredible that it survived so long, and that it may even still exist. Possibly the lights were taken out for the race because lights were still expensive in '51 so why not whip 'em out for the day?

TWO fillers behind the driver, and you an see the steel tube substructure for the body. Somebody went to an amazing lot of trouble to build that car.

Fascinating saga, this one. An unknown car with a long, unknown history, emerging frfom the fog. Love it.

Edited by Terry Walker, 31 January 2011 - 11:17.

[ken devine]

This is certainly getting somewhere.

[Terry Walker]

What's more - an unknown Australian Grand Prix contestant!

[Ray Bell]

And the very fact that it's travelled so many thousands of miles...

I wonder if the fact that it was thought to be an Allard led to such long trips across the country?

[cammo77]

For a friend of mine I am enquiring if anyone has a picture of the car Harry Smith drove in the 1951 Grand Prix at Narrogin.

Hi Barry this email turned up to me last night and this is a copy

Hope this emails gets to you Cammo

Cammo the car has not been been turned into parts and is still complete
I have been trying for some timeto collect the history imformation on this car, re locactions and owners
I have no history pre 1951 and from 1951 to late 1960s
From 1970 I have a nearly complete list I think up till now of owners and photographs of this car
For some time it was thought it may be an Allard but after talking to Allard people in Australia and over the world this proved not to be the case
Andrew Lamont in Tasmania knows of the car

I am curious as to now why the sudden interest in this car as up till now imformation about its history has been hard to obtain
I am the one who had the photo at the Ballart Swap Meet looking for imformation in Australia and other parts of the World
As I have been told this car has some interesting history to it and some will provide the imformation if I keep looking

Rodney Williams

[Barry Boor]

Cammo, I am in touch with Rodney now, too.

[Ray Bell]

The fact is, Barry, this Special is one of the most interesting to turn up out of oblivion for many years...

It's a unique car, I would have to say. The trouble (and apparent expense) that's gone into making such a body would only have been matched by a couple of cars built in Australia in the '30s, '40s or '50s. I'm thinking of the cars of Augustus Macintyre, Dick Cobden's MG, a Head brothers car or two and the Prads, there may be one or two others.

But this one really does stand out, especially for its native environment in WA.

If it has a split beam front end, as it appears to have, and if it's had that since first built, it would be unique in that regard too for a V8 car I'm quite sure. No, not unique, the Monoskate has that... so it's one of two in all probability.

Just from appearances it would seem to have the '40 to '48 Ford style of brakes, hydraulics, which means it was up to date in that department when built too. It must have had some speed to have garnered that handicap in the AGP as well, though the time it took for its first lap of the race (does anyone have the lap times for this event?) was no sensation and several cars overtook or drove away from it.

A tremendous find, and Rodney will hopefully give us more details as we find more for him. Current photos would be nice, too, and from that Baskerville event eleven years ago.

And we still want to know, Barry... who asked about this car and why?

[ken devine]

Keep digging you guya i have been asked to do a story on it. The swamp Ray mentioned it coming from may have been Lake Monger
which was a rubbish tip in the 50s and close to where it was once seen.

[cammo77]

Keep digging you guya i have been asked to do a story on it. The swamp Ray mentioned it coming from may have been Lake Monger
which was a rubbish tip in the 50s and close to where it was once seen.

Ken you need to talk to Rodney Williams he has photos of the swamp sight and the name of it taken back in 1970 by be person who rcovered the car them

Rodney is trying to get on to the Forum sight and has re regist but will take about a day for it to happen

Just been told he is the owner of the car and is in the shed with his collection of Fords and will be running at the old Longford G P Race Track in Tasmania 1-2-3 April this year for the Longford Revival

[ken devine]

I spoke to the instigator last night he is a well known ex WA racedriver and historian who is a distant relation of the Smith family,
He has applied to join TNF.

[Wilyman]

I spoke to the instigator last night he is a well known ex WA racedriver and historian who is a distant relation of the Smith family,
He has applied to join TNF.

Ken,
It will be quite something for the "Harry Smith Special" story to reveal the mystery years between it racing in the AGP at Narrogin, its location in a swamp in Perth and not forgetting its siting "in the flesh" by myself and friends in Kalgoorlie in the early '60's.
Another part of the story is its appearance in Norseman prior to it turning up in Kalgoorlie?
There are still a few gaps prior to its Tasmanian appearance. Although most of this period and up to current may soon be revealed?

I'm thinking Harry would've been well pleased to be reading of the interest shown in his "Special" on these pages.

[Ray Bell]

Seems the car may have at one time lived in Brisbane...

And it spent a lot of time in Victoria before moving to Tasmania. Rodney has had it for about three years, and even when he bought it most people thought it was an Allard.

His plans are to restore it completely. Learning that it was an AGP car has added the incentive he needed to go to the 'last nut and bolt' with it.

[ken devine]

I just looked up Terrys race results it shows it shows H.Smith in a stock car race at Mooliabeenie April 1950, called a Ford V8.
Again at Mooliabeenie pre AGP Feb 51 again entered as a sportscar as a Ford V8, then in o/1500 racing car Championship as the
Smith Special each time carrying number19.He competed in a stockcar race at Northam in 1952 driving a Peugeot.
There is a photo of it in a Morgan book alongside Colin Uphills Morgan and Syd Taylors TS.and it is refered to as a Jaguar XK120
based special,i have not seen the photo.

[Ray Bell]

Now there's an interesting one, Ken...

Today I was checking back to find a photo of the Ranford car, among the posts that came up was mention of a picture of it in a Morgan book, the thread was entitled "TNF Gazette: errata, corrections & clarifications":

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Morgan Sports Cars - The early years... John Alderson.

I caught sight of this book at a stall at Murwillumbah's Speed On Tweed event and was immediately transfixed by the sight of the Ranford Chrysler hastening in the wake of the Dave van Dal Morgan on the dustjacket.

Well, of course, the trained eye might have missed it, but for me it wasn't hard, I've admired that car for years, so I saw the Special, not the highly modified Moggie.

So, in pursuit of more information, I searched the dustjacket looking for a caption. None there.

So I opened the book, and I soon found the same picture inside with a caption that said it was Maurie Maurice in his Chrysler Special, and that the picture was probably taken in 1953.

Armed with this bit of information, I looked more closely at the photo and realised that there were two aluminium pieces on the bonnet of the car, one each side, which indicated that the picture was taken after a Ford V8 engine had been fitted.

This places the photo more likely in 1954... and the 'Chrysler' has to be deleted from the name of the car.

Can anyone copy and send me the photo, please? We surely have some Moggie people here...

[ken devine]

The Morgan book i was reffering to was written recently by Morgan Specialist Craig Aitkin. Do you know if there are still copies of
the other book available Ray.

[Ray Bell]

I've no doubt you could find one somewhere...

I only ever saw it the once, the only reason I looked at it was because the Ranford car was on the cover. You can understand that.

[ken devine]

This photo of a 1947 Allard has just been sent to me, It seems the Smith Special was built in 1950 or thereabout to resemble it.
The same Allard competed in the 1994 Dutton Rally and the covering story says it came to Australia in 1952.





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[ken devine]

The Dutton rally story.






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