49 replies to this topic

[Andre Acker]

Hi !

Having a look at F1 in the past, I remember the 1974 season as that with more different cars : 20 !

Amon, Brabham (2 teams, MRD and Hexagon), BRM, Ensign, Ferrari, Hesketh, Iso Rivolta (F. Williams), Lotus, Lyncar, Lola (Hill), March, Maki, McLaren (2 teams, Marlboro and Yardley), Penske, Parnelli, Surtees, Shadow, Trojan, Token, Tyrrell.

There were also other private tries as Lella Lombardi (Brabham) at the British GP etc.

Tecno gave up at the end of 1973 and Copersucar did not race until 1975.

Berta promised a car but it was never entered.

Matra abandonned F1 at the end of 1972 and Ligier entered the category in 1976.

Any others ?

André Acker.

[BRG]

Yes, it was disgraceful. It really needed Bernie Ecclestone to knock it all into shape, to get rid of all those aberrations and private entrants, with their non-matching liveries, and to make lots of money for himself in the process. Look at how much better F1 is today.

[Stephen W]

Yes, it was disgraceful. It really needed Bernie Ecclestone to knock it all into shape, to get rid of all those aberrations and private entrants, with their non-matching liveries, and to make lots of money for himself in the process. Look at how much better F1 is today.

Agreed!

[JacnGille]

Yep

[Risil]

How many different engines though? Sounds a bit 'Moto2' to me...

[jj2728]

How many different engines though? Sounds a bit 'Moto2' to me...

Uhmmm......perhaps you meant the current engines?

[Gabrci]

It always amazes me how many experienced F1 followers fail to recognize how much Ecclestone really did for F1. No sarcasm here.

[GD66]

Nowhere near as much as he did for Mr Ecclestone...

[Duc-Man]

How many different engines though? Sounds a bit 'Moto2' to me...

BRM and Ferrari build their own engines. Ford Cosworth sold to anybody else. I don't know about Matra and Alfa Romeo. The Shadow DN7 had a Matra engine in 1975.

[scags]

More no hope- ers driving kit cars doesn't make for a better series, at least for me.

[Tim Murray]

I haven't got time to do a comprehensive check right now, but certainly at least 20 different marques took part in 1989, if only in pre-qualifying.

Edited by Tim Murray, 10 January 2011 - 14:41.

[BRG]

More no hope- ers driving kit cars doesn't make for a better series, at least for me.

I don't see that Eppie Wietzes, Jorge de Bagration, Bertil Roos, Leo Kinnunen or Jose Dolhem were any more no-hopers than Buemi, B. Senna, Yamamoto, di Grassi or Chandok?

[Risil]

Uhmmm......perhaps you meant the current engines?

No, just that quoting 20 different kinds of chassis is slightly misleading when two teams run unique, works-built engines, and the rest of the field are running DFVs. Obviously this is because Cosworth developed a relatively low-cost, highly competitive engine, but 1974 embodied a certain kind of competition; in other areas the competition was decidedly minimal. Moto2 is the current intermediate Grand Prix class in bike racing in which teams are forced to run virtually-stock CBR600 engines, but are allowed near-total freedom in frame design. This has seen some oddities like a trellis-frame chassis from the great 'name' MZ (beaten by teams with much smaller budgets); a tiny Italian waterjet machining company finishing second at Estoril; and great economies of scale from established GP names like Suter and Moriwaki. These things make good stories and sound like great competition, but few hardened motorcycle fans would call it a 'real' Grand Prix class, especially compared with the 250 battles that raged in Grand Prix throughout the 1990s and early 2000s.

This is an extreme analogy (and differs crucially in that no teams were forced to run Cosworths (see F1 2010 ;) ); it was the best available engine after all) but I would suggest a year where only Cosworths and Ferraris were in a position to score points regularly does not rank as an especially glorious time for Grand Prix racing as an idea. It was a glorious time for British chassis manufacturers, aficionados of close and spectacular races, opportunities for up-and-coming drivers, and the Ford Motor Company, of course.

Edited by Risil, 10 January 2011 - 15:49.

[HistoryFan]

We have also many cars that could make points. In 1978 there were 14, in 1989 the record of 16 cars in points!

It's in German:
http://www.inside-ra...en-punkten.html

[scheivlak]

BRM and Ferrari build their own engines. Ford Cosworth sold to anybody else. I don't know about Matra and Alfa Romeo. The Shadow DN7 had a Matra engine in 1975.

Matra was gone in 1974, as was Alfa Romeo. And BRM dwindled away in 1975.
Have a look at the 1975 Constructors standings: http://forix.autospo...&...amp;s=0&b=0

[jj2728]

No, just that quoting 20 different kinds of chassis is slightly misleading when two teams run unique, works-built engines, and the rest of the field are running DFVs. Obviously this is because Cosworth developed a relatively low-cost, highly competitive engine, but 1974 embodied a certain kind of competition; in other areas the competition was decidedly minimal. Moto2 is the current intermediate Grand Prix class in bike racing in which teams are forced to run virtually-stock CBR600 engines, but are allowed near-total freedom in frame design. This has seen some oddities like a trellis-frame chassis from the great 'name' MZ (beaten by teams with much smaller budgets); a tiny Italian waterjet machining company finishing second at Estoril; and great economies of scale from established GP names like Suter and Moriwaki. These things make good stories and sound like great competition, but few hardened motorcycle fans would call it a 'real' Grand Prix class, especially compared with the 250 battles that raged in Grand Prix throughout the 1990s and early 2000s.

This is an extreme analogy (and differs crucially in that no teams were forced to run Cosworths (see F1 2010 ;) ); it was the best available engine after all) but I would suggest a year where only Cosworths and Ferraris were in a position to score points regularly does not rank as an especially glorious time for Grand Prix racing as an idea. It was a glorious time for British chassis manufacturers, aficionados of close and spectacular races, opportunities for up-and-coming drivers, and the Ford Motor Company, of course.

Thanks for the explanation and me regrets that I perfectly mis-understood your first post....I was equating sounds with actual sounds...lack of cafe' early in the morning....
and to think that at one time in a land far away I co-owned a motorbike shop and we gave serious consideration at trying our hand in 250cc competition, but that's a story for another day.

[Geezerrob]

Here are a few images of the cars you are talking about, that I recently found and scanned, taken at the 1974 Canadian Grand Prix held at Mosport Park.

[alansart]

Eppie Wietzes 2nd and last GP. 7 years after his debut.

A big welcome to TNF Geezerrob. Excellent photos. Have you got any more?

Edited by alansart, 10 January 2011 - 19:14.

[Geezerrob]

Eppie Wietzes 2nd and last GP. 7 years after his debut.

A big welcome to TNF Geezerrob. Excellent photos. Have you got any more?

Thanks for the welcome, and yes I do have more. If you would like to see them I would be happy to post them as well

Rob

[ensign14]

More no hope- ers driving kit cars doesn't make for a better series, at least for me.

But some of those kit car chaps went on to much better things. Frank Willams and Ron Dennis, for instance.

The emphasis on one make formulae and franchises has removed the ladder of talent for constructors. Minardi-Toro Rosso and Toleman-Benetton-Renault-Fauxtus moved up via their own F2 cars. You might have expected a Prodrive or an Epsilon to have been able to do the same.

[Risil]

Faustus? Surely that would be Ecclestone?

[jj2728]

Thanks for the welcome, and yes I do have more. If you would like to see them I would be happy to post them as well

Rob

Welcome! Excellent photos and yes, please do post more.

[DN5]

I liked the fact that you can tell cars apart by their look and not the colour scheme,

Geoff

[Allan Lupton]

I liked the fact that you can tell cars apart by their look and not the colour scheme,

Geoff

not to mention their clearly visible competition numbers which it would be a great help to reinstate.

[RA Historian]

Toleman-Benetton-Renault-Fauxtus

Faustus? Surely that would be Ecclestone?

I believe that our friend Ensign meant exactly what he printed. Faux=false, -tus for Lotus. Not Faustus. I take it Ensign is not enamored of all the goings-on regarding all the Lotus pretenders.
Tom

[Ray Bell]

And nobody has yet mentioned 'kit cars'...

Didn't you read your comments from DSJ?

[PCC]

Thanks for the welcome, and yes I do have more. If you would like to see them I would be happy to post them as well

Rob

Yes, please!

[ensign14]

I believe that our friend Ensign meant exactly what he printed. Faux=false, -tus for Lotus. Not Faustus. I take it Ensign is not enamored of all the goings-on regarding all the Lotus pretenders.
Tom

Indeed. If anyone has a right to claim to be the continuation of Team, it's the Fernandes group who bought the name off David Hunt. And even then it's fairly slight.

[Risil]

I believe that our friend Ensign meant exactly what he printed. Faux=false, -tus for Lotus. Not Faustus. I take it Ensign is not enamored of all the goings-on regarding all the Lotus pretenders.
Tom

Yeeees that was a misfiring joke as a matter of fact. Eye-puns vs. ear-puns.

[JacnGille]

I liked the fact that you can tell cars apart by their look and not the colour scheme,

Geoff

Sing it Brother!

[jj2728]

not to mention their clearly visible competition numbers which it would be a great help to reinstate.

and detract from all the pretty colours?.....

[raceannouncer2003]

not to mention their clearly visible competition numbers which it would be a great help to reinstate.

Hear, hear!

Vince H.

[Geezerrob]

Here are some more of the photos I took of the 1974 Canadian Grand Prix. These were so much fun to take, you could get a "Paddock Pass" that got you access to almost anywhere. I look back at these and see how I could go in the pits and get close ups of all that was happening. In 1976 I bought a Walter Wolf mechanic's shirt right off his back. I imagine that kind of access is no longer possible to do without a press pass today.

Edited by Geezerrob, 11 January 2011 - 18:23.

[jonnylayze]

what made this period special was that it encouraged innovation in design. I do accept the criticism of a formula in which only Ferrari and BRM built their own engines but how refreshing that a competitive F1 engine and gearbox could be bought off the shelf (some Cosworths were more equal than others) to power a chassis riveted together in a back street lock up. In fact, there aren't many engine manufacturers in modern F1 (4?) and any innovation in engine technology is strangled by the freeze on engine development. This stagnation in innovation is compounded by the contraints on the design of the car. I accept that some of these constraints are borne of safety and you can't turn the clock back but there is also a sense in which a formula based pruely around the size of the engine (without constraint on configuration) or overall weight (as per the pre-war 750kg formula) delivered some of the most exciting cars.

With some exceptions, if you took the paint off of a modern formula 1 car I would struggle to identify it. Most of the 50s cars and many of those from the 70s I could identify blind fold.

I realise I'm largely preaching to the converted on here but it is sooooo frustrating.

[JacnGille]

Thanks for all the great pics!

[philippe7]

Absolutely brilliant stuff, geezerrob Thank you very much .



Sadly, the first and last Grand Prix finish of a young up-and-coming driver


.....and the last Grand Prix of a very distinguished career
( Jean-Pierre didn't start at the Glen due to injury in practice )

[ensign14]

With some exceptions, if you took the paint off of a modern formula 1 car I would struggle to identify it. Most of the 50s cars and many of those from the 70s I could identify blind fold.

To the trained eye someone would not only be able to identify the make but might also identify the race - maybe even the driver - from the wing treatment alone.

Logically all cars SHOULD look the same, they should evolve to the most efficient shape. The way to make them different is if there are three or four identically fast solutions to the same problem. Nowadays teams can simulate things like a P34 or a Lotus 78 before making them and perhaps wasting their money. Less chance of an Arrows A2 or Lotus 80.

And how about sixties cars? They were all pretty similar...cigar tubes on suspensions. Didn't stop it being thrilling racing though.

[RA Historian]

Sadly, the first and last Grand Prix finish of a young up-and-coming driver

Actually, poor Koinigg did two GPs; it was the following week that he perished at the Glen.
Tom

[PCC]

Great photos, thank you! They bring back such memories. I was sitting on the outside of corner 3 for the race. Lauda took off into the lead and just disappeared - until he inexplicably slid off the track right in front of us. Apparently someone had spilled some oil, but it wasn't obvious and no flags had appeared. The spectators applauded as Lauda climbed out and said a quiet word to the marshal - I'm not sure what he said, but I don't think it was "thanks"!

[Tim Murray]

Actually, poor Koinigg did two GPs; it was the following week that he perished at the Glen.
Tom

... so didn't finish the race. As he'd failed to qualify the Scuderia Finotto Brabham in Austria, the Canadian GP was, as Philippe says, his only GP finish.

Edited by Tim Murray, 12 January 2011 - 01:25.

[Tim Murray]

Great photos, thank you! They bring back such memories. I was sitting on the outside of corner 3 for the race. Lauda took off into the lead and just disappeared - until he inexplicably slid off the track right in front of us. Apparently someone had spilled some oil, but it wasn't obvious and no flags had appeared. The spectators applauded as Lauda climbed out and said a quiet word to the marshal - I'm not sure what he said, but I don't think it was "thanks"!

The report by Pete Lyons in Autosport says that the problem was caused when Watson's Brabham came into turn 3 and his suspension collapsed. The ensuing moment put a lot of dirt across the apex of the racing line. A couple of cars made it through safely, but then Lauda arrived and had his accident.

[Geezerrob]

Great photos, thank you! They bring back such memories. I was sitting on the outside of corner 3 for the race. Lauda took off into the lead and just disappeared - until he inexplicably slid off the track right in front of us. Apparently someone had spilled some oil, but it wasn't obvious and no flags had appeared. The spectators applauded as Lauda climbed out and said a quiet word to the marshal - I'm not sure what he said, but I don't think it was "thanks"!

Thanks, I am very happy I found the negs getting the Christmas tree out of the attic this year. We used to camp right across from the pits. There is nothing like waking up to the roar of the engines as the mechanics fired them up. I know I have some photos of the 76 race somewhere, I am going to have to look for them

[PCC]

The report by Pete Lyons in Autosport says that the problem was caused when Watson's Brabham came into turn 3 and his suspension collapsed. The ensuing moment put a lot of dirt across the apex of the racing line. A couple of cars made it through safely, but then Lauda arrived and had his accident.

Was that it? It's funny, I have no recollection of the Watson incident, but I suppose at the time I didn't recognize it as pivotal to the race, whereras Lauda's sliding off clearly was. And of course, it was a long time ago, and I was only 13... could I really be that old?

I do remember being very disappointed, because I was a huge Lauda fan. I was a fan because the year before, I had come across him in the tower and asked for his autograph and took his picture; he was very kind, and that's all that's required to make a twelve-year-old boy a fan for life! And it didn't hurt that he really distinguished himself in the very chaotic race the next day.

[PCC]

Thanks, I am very happy I found the negs getting the Christmas tree out of the attic this year. We used to camp right across from the pits. There is nothing like waking up to the roar of the engines as the mechanics fired them up. I know I have some photos of the 76 race somewhere, I am going to have to look for them

Well, please take your time when you're returning the tree to the attic and have a good look around.... If you have pictures of the camping scene too it would be great fun to see those.

[jj2728]

Here are some more of the photos I took of the 1974 Canadian Grand Prix. These were so much fun to take, you could get a "Paddock Pass" that got you access to almost anywhere. I look back at these and see how I could go in the pits and get close ups of all that was happening. In 1976 I bought a Walter Wolf mechanic's shirt right off his back. I imagine that kind of access is no longer possible to do without a press pass today.

I had the paddock pass for the '73 GP and you are right, you COULD go almost anywhere. Alas, another case of 'lost negatives due to frequent moves syndrome'. And I bought a Marlboro Team Texaco McLaren exactly the same way at the 75 USGP.

[alansart]

I had the paddock pass for the '73 GP and you are right, you COULD go almost anywhere.

I first went to Mosport in 1985. OK the GP had gone by then, but this was for World Sports Cars and the debut of the Jags. I didn't have a Paddock Pass. I just paid my entry like any other punter, but found it quite easy to stroll into the pits on Practice day and take a few photos. Fabulous place!

It's probably changed a bit now

[RA Historian]

... so didn't finish the race. As he'd failed to qualify the Scuderia Finotto Brabham in Austria, the Canadian GP was, as Philippe says, his only GP finish.

You are absolutely right, Tim. The word "finish" did not register properly. My apologies to Philippe7, he was quite right.

Memo to self: read every word!

Tom

[RA Historian]

I first went to Mosport in 1985. OK the GP had gone by then, but this was for World Sports Cars and the debut of the Jags. I didn't have a Paddock Pass. I just paid my entry like any other punter, but found it quite easy to stroll into the pits on Practice day and take a few photos. Fabulous place!

It's probably changed a bit now

Indeed. In 1974 and 1976 we just walked into the paddock and the garages when the guard's back was turned. Very easy, no pass required, just time your moves right. In 1977 we bought paddock passes and did the same trick with the pits; just walked out of the garage, across pit lane when the guard was not looking, and there we were, right in the pit box itself. As you imply, security arrangements certainly were not of the level that they are today! (Lot more fun back then...)

Tom

[jj2728]

Pit security at the Glen 1967....

[philippe7]

You are absolutely right, Tim. The word "finish" did not register properly. My apologies to Philippe7, he was quite right.

No problem at all, Tom . But yes, I did try to choose the words carefully ( specially as a non-native speaker ) and specifically chose "Grand Prix finish" for poor Koïnigg, while on the other hand I mentioned JPB's last "Grand Prix" since he didn't finish the race...( or rather, finished "not classified" ...)

Edited by philippe7, 13 January 2011 - 00:15.