35 replies to this topic

[andy_bee]

This would be a crying shame, http://www.atlasf1.c...?threadid=14155

[Don Capps]

First, the GLTL scheme was introduced in New Zealand for the Tasman races that year, not at Jarama -- however, I keep forgetting that there is no god but F1 and its form on earth as the WDC....

Second, Life will go on in the Thoroughbred series. I do admit to shuddering every time I see a sponsor decal on a 250F or a 158/159 or a similar car. What will probably happen is the scheme itself will be retained without the product adverts to the maximum extent possible.

Also, weaning itself from tobacco might be truly more beneficial in the overall scheme of things for F1. That was a path that was taken years ago and like that teenager who is now an adult and coughing & wheezing every day from smoking several packs a day, perhaps it time to find an out while there is time. Short term expediency often carries a long-term price that is greater than expected.

Personally, I am a non-smoker and always have been. I am one of the anti-smoking nazis because I have seen & buried the results of what smoking does. Anyone who doubts that are indeed a few real cabals that are not the products of over-ripe imaginations or urban legend need look no further than tobacco industry.

[Gil Bouffard]

Way back in 79-81, I used to pull a trick on many "F-1 enthusiasts," by showing them a picture of a McLaren or a Ligier racing at Hockenheim and ask them what it said on the side of the car. The answer usually was, "Marlboro," or "Gitanes." Show them a picture of a Lotus and the answer was "JPS," or "John Player Special."

I could also do this with pictures from the GP of England. There was no Marlboro, Gitanes or John Player Special logo on those cars. The Marlboro they saw was actually vertical black stripes. The Gitanes Woman logo was on the side of the Ligier and Olympus graced the side pods of the Lotus.

I doubt many people have taken up the habit of smoking because of a logo on the side of a car. I smoked because everybody around me smoked. I certainly didn't smoke because my favorite drivers smoked. Because to my knowledge neither Harry Schell or Stirling Moss smoked. At least I had never seen a picture of them smoking. And if they did, I still would not have used such a lame excuse as that to start.

BTW Don, I think they were using the first F-1 race as the start of the cigarette advertising campaign.

Also the late DSJ never called a McLaren a Marlboro McLaren or a Lotus a John Player Lotus. He expressed his horror many times about traveling advertising hoardings.

Gil

[andy_bee]

I don't particualy like the huge amount of tobacco sponsorship in F1, but I would hate for cars like the M23 or the Lotus JPS' to have to be reliveried.

I remember years ago on Blockbusters (a UK quiz show for clever kids!) that the compare asked what car did Niki lauda drive to the championship last year (so it was 85!) and the kid said a Malboro and then to my surprise the presenter said correct!!! He must have automatically agreed with the answer without checking it himself

[Barry Boor]

If we are going to ban tobacco advertising on racing cars, we have to ban ALL tobacco advertising on racing cars.

HOWEVER, nobody seemed to object to East instead of West, so surely, any Historic Car could get away with a minor spelling modification: Harlboro; JRS; Giranes, etc etc etc. It should appease the anti lobby, without drastically changing the overall authentic look of the cars, which I think is the most important factor.

[Ross Stonefeld]

my favorite are the "Marlboro F1" billboards at Silverstone

to me advertising is about increasing your share of the market, not increasing the size of the market. Car commercials mean nothing to me unless im looking to buy

then again, im probably smarter than some consumers

[Eric McLoughlin]

Whilst I am a dedicated non-smoker, I would surely hate to see classic F1 car have to wear a "bastardised" version of the schemes they wore in their hey-day. What about defunct brands (like Player's Gold Leaf), would they be banned too?

It's a bit like the problems plastic kit builders have today when making wartime Luftwaffe models. Very few kit manufacturer's provide Swastikas on their decal sheets, although all German aircraft between 1933 and 1945 carried them. Just because something may not be politically correct today does not mean than history has to be sanitised.

By the way, I would love to see ciggy sponsorship go from modern F1 - with a corresponding cut in teams' budgets too.

[fines]

What about 'Joan Player Special', 'Millboro', 'Guitars', 'Wild Seven', 'Bold Leave' or 'Wonfield'...

[Barry Boor]

Exactly what I had in mind, Michael.

Who is going to notice one letter here or there?

[Dennis David]

I say good riddance. What’s so appealing about a McLaren looking like a rolling cigarette package? I think it would be kind of neat seeing a Lotus 79 in British Racing Green. These tobacco companies have been a cancer on Grand Prix racing.

[Ray Bell]

Here I am a little torn between the thoughts expressed by Eric and the purity and reality of Dennis' comment.
I think the weight is with Dennis, though, and I would also like to see an M26 in plain orange, a Ligier in plain blue, but that's not to say I'd order the Yardley colours painted over on a BRM.

[Todd]

I'm really disgusted by this revisionist drivel. If the point of historics is to see things as they were, that means the markings of the sponsors that made Lotus' achievements possible. Wishing cars of the seventies, '80s and '90s were 'national' colors doesn't change history. Unless you think Orwell was a master of the happy ending.

[Ray Bell]

No, Todd, this isn't my point of view. I was against smoking from the beginning, against tobacco advertising from the beginning, and even more so now.
Whether the cars take on national colours or some other colours is not relevant, really, but I am saying I'd like them to lose the tobacco livery.
Having seen D-D's 49 without the script on it, by the way, I wouldn't favour that option either.
It is unfortunately true that the tobacco people had the money and the people to make the cars look good as well, which is a shame, as it detracts from changing them.

[Dennis David]

The fact of the matter is I did not nor do I now see any positive effect upon F1 brought on by the likes of Marlboro and their ilk.

[Ray Bell]

Did any GP driver ever have the guts to say "No!" when offered their money?
Moss admits to have been influenced by them, and so far back, well before signage...

[Todd]

Originally posted by Dennis David
The fact of the matter is I did not nor do I now see any positive effect upon F1 brought on by the likes of Marlboro and their ilk.

Who paid for the grids full of competitive cars in the mid '70s? Who paid for Colin Chapman's innovations and experiments? Before he started ripping off Irish tax payers, that is. You can say that you don't like the professionalism that tobacco money brought to F1, but you can't honestly revisit the past 33 years of F1 without recognizing the part tobacco money played.

From the Lotus 49 through the Senna Prost battles to the resurgence of Ferrari today, tobacco money made it all possible, and defined the level of competition between the constructors. I don't understand the point of being a historian that denies history.

[Don Capps]

Todd,

As someone once pointed out, often soldiers fight just as hard in the service of a "bad" cause as those who do so for a "good" cause.

Tobacco did not fill the grids in the 70s: BRM & McLaren, Lotus, Ligier, and the odd sprinking of a few other entrants here and there. It did, however, begin to become more prevalent after that decade as far as direct advertising on the cars goes.

The tobacco assault was really launched when TV advertising in the US was banned and suddenly there were bags of money sitting around in the advertising accounts. Initially RJ Reynolds went after the American market and Philip Morris went after the European market. L&M and others hopped on the bandwagon as well.

Lou Stanley convinced PM that he was their man and got their money for a few seasons before they realized thay had been had. PM also did lots of other promotions such as the "Rouge et Blanc" man-of-the-race award, doing PR flack work for the organizers of races, and then even sponsoring the events.

Your cry against revisionism is noted. You credit tobacco as the saviors of F1. But at what cost? That is what many of us are questioning. When you literally sell your soul, some day there will be an accounting. NASCAR is in the same pickle as F1. Tobacco helped F1, but Hitler built the autobahns and Mussolini made the trains run on time -- so nothing is ever simple. However, keep in mind that any "help" was first and foremost tied to the proprietary interests of the company and any benefits to racing were both incidental and only to protect their investment.

Like the people who are adicted to their products, tobacco companies have addicted F1 racing (and several other forms) to their money. Just because we have to live with it doesn't mean we have to like it. All that money comes from somewhere and it is from the people that these companies have callously addicted to their products.

Racing made a pact with the devil and is discovering that expediency has its price.

Last word: perhaps the role that the tobacco companies have played in racing needs to be examined more closely than it has been. I seriously doubt that Ecclestone got to where he is without PM and others making "suggestions" as to how things should be. After all, PM & BAT & RJR didn't pay out all those dollars for nothing.... It has less to do with "revisionistic history" and more to do with the "real history" of the situation.

[AyePirate]

Still, I don't see what butchering the livery
of an old racing car would accomplish.

If lawmakers want to treat tobacco as
if it were illegal, they should go ahead
and make it illegal..and add yet one
more substance to the list that they
can't stop people from using:lol:

[Gary C]

It's bluddy outrageous! I watch the TGPs all the time & to think that they want to interfere with the McLaren/Lotus/Ligier/Shadow liveries beggars belief!!
I can see half the cars disappearing overnight!
It's not going to happen.

[Don Capps]

Everyone is probably their panties in wad over nothing since money wills out in the end: the liveries will become "protected" and therefore continue to be used in Formula Thoroughbred and Life will go on. Simple as that.

[Barry Boor]

If we are talking about the effect fag-money (sorry America!) has had on F1, I think maybe we should consider what might have happened had tobacco sponsorship not caught on at all.

For heaven's sake, lads, development would have been slowed down terribly! I mean, we might still have cars that slide around, overtake one-another and look like real racing cars should!!!!

Then where would we be...................?

[Ray Bell]

Really?
Do you think Chapman might not have dreamed up ground effect without this money?
After all, he got Ford money for the Cosworth engine, it seems he prided himself on fumbling Honda about before that as he wielded influence over Jaguar and Coventry Climax.
Do you really think he couldn't have found a Yardley or another multinational who might have parted with some dollars?
Maybe there wouldn't have been so many dollars, but what would that do - cut down the wind tunnel time?
The level of exotic materials might not have been so high, they would have retained Hewland's gearbox housings longer rather than cast their own (or got Hewland to make up a new 'industry standard' model for them with built in oil tanks), maybe they wouldn't have tried so many different types of wheels.
But they would have been there. Again, there are maybes... maybe Williams would not have gone with the Iso crowd for so long, so history would have changed. But consider this:
Williams never had cigarette sponsorship from that time until his post-Canon years. In that time his cars were often dominant against the cars funded by the addicts.
I believe it would have all worked out. Differently to what it has, but worked out, all the same.

[Dennis David]

Yet maybe it would have been a little bit slower, a little less mean. Maybe we could have kept it civil for a few more years. The tobacco companies had so much money to spend I don't think it would have been matched by other businesses at that time...maybe now but not then.

[Ray Bell]

The racing scene is just a part of their play area. As mentioned, they had all that money they'd been spending, so they threw it around and bought food companies and other genuine businesses, now they can operate through them.
We recently had a commercial on our television from Dick Smith for the first of his food lines that are all made locally by locally owned businesses.
He hit at Kraft, telling all and sundry that they are owned by a company that wants to sell cigarettes to their kids!
It was off in a couple of days...

[Gil Bouffard]

Wait a minute, guys!...Hang on!

I have never read that the advertisers/sponsors of the Classic GP cars have carried over their payments from the "Grand Old Days of Formula One."

In other words, I doubt that Phillip Morris and the other cigarette manufacturers are paying Martin Stretten and company for their services.

This means that the liveries on the "historic," are for historical significance rather than advertising.

I would say that as long as no money has been paid by the tobacco companies to the competitors then there is no foul. Not even a yellow card.

Gil

[Ray Bell]

Dead right, but it's still advertising, paid or unpaid.
And there would still be a perceived gain for the addict leeches. No matter how remote.

[dbw]

as an owner and driver of historic racing cars i can assure you that i do all that is within my power to make the car as it was at the "point in time " that i have chosen to restore it to.for my bug,it's obviously monaco,1930...i am now studying photos minutely so as to get even the numbers brush painted in the exact location just as uneven as it was on that day.the clubs that i race with here on the west coast are pretty good about keeping period configurations...i for one will pass up an event that requires "their" numbering system,huge yellow arrows for [in my case] a non existant external ignition cut off switch..etc.i hate to say it, but i was disappointed at the crap that seemed to required on the cars at the monaco historic meeting last year...i won't do it...as long as there are events that respect the orginality of old racing cars, i'll be happy..even if the lawyers and big money guys close all those doors..i can still fire the old nail up and drive it up my street and into the local foothills,feel the wind in my face and the hot oil splattering on my feet..just as ettore intended.

[Ray Bell]

That's a long way removed from tobacco advertising, dbw, but your point is well made.
But conscience should also come into it, and we're talking about a time when cars were coloured according to economic convenience... they could go any way, depending on whether or not the money was there.

On your subject, our meetings are usually denied the presence of Graeme Snape's Eclipse Zephyr, one of the most interesting race cars ever built, because the CAMS insists on a big 'A' on the bodywork to denote alcohol fuel, and it didn't have it when it was new, so it won't have it now.
He gets to run it at events where CAMS have no jurisdiction, however, and he has other cars to run at CAMS events.

[dbw]

i don't quite get the point...when the national air and space museum restores and displays a vintage warbird, it is marked with painstaking accuracy..i see no difference between a mitsubishi manufactured zero,a stuka divebomber and a jps lotus...they are historic artifacts of their time and place..and should be presented exactly as they were when current,both mechanically and esthetically....if this was a hollywood film or a tv show, using replicas or the such,fine..but i can find no reason to deface the actual cars.i use the word deface seriously.

[Todd]

Historic racing shouldn't be effected by how things should or could have been. Historic racing only has worth when it shows how things really were. Otherwise it is just a bunch of no talent wealthy old farts putting valuable artifacts at risk. They might as well race last year's F3000s instead. They can paint them whatever pretty colors they want and call themselves Nuvolari for all it matters.

[Gil Bouffard]

The historical significance of a Lotus 72 painted green rather than the Gold Leaf Team Lotus or John Player Special livery is that a Lotus 72 never raced as a green car!

It is like watching a movie or a TV show where the bad guy is supposed to be flying a MiG-17 and they use an F-22 or worse F/A-18 as a stand in. The authenticity goes right in the pooper.

Gil

[fines]

Or a b&w movie with computer added colours! Aaarrrrgh...

[Gil Bouffard]

Todd's comments; "Historic racing shouldn't be effected by how things should or could have been. Historic racing only has worth when it shows how things really were. Otherwise it is just a bunch of no talent wealthy old farts putting valuable artifacts at risk. They might as well race last year's F3000s instead. They can paint them whatever pretty colors they want and call themselves Nuvolari for all it matters." Is exactly correct.

Now then, I have a problem looking at a "Historical/Classic," race car with a giant chromium rollover bar attached to it, when it was not required equipment when the car originally raced. The same holds for a Bugatti driven by a guy in a full face helmet and wrapped in Nomex!

I can tell you that I was disappointed that Juan Manuel Fangio did not wear his familiar brown Herbert Johnson helmet when he did the demonstration runs in the M-B W196, back in 1991. The disappointment was tempered by watching the Maestro tool that great racing car through Laguna Seca with a great big smile on his face.

That was enough for me.

Gil

[dbw]

well..i don't mind the nomex if it's on me...however, quite a few of us who race real early cars,have been known to stuff the loose ends of our 3" "required" seatbelts under the bolster so as to look in compliance but still have the freedom to be thrown clear....[we're talking cars with no bodywork that you mostly sit on rather than in]

[Ray Bell]

Do I have to mention Niel Allen's crash again?

What about John Ward's... he was a Kiwi racing at Catalina Park in NSW, refused to do up his belts, didn't live to regret it.

[dbw]

were either running a 1908 one cylinder cadillac perchance? i wear belts in the bugattis as there is a place to dive into....the cad has a single bucket perched 18" above the chassis with no surrounding structure....not unlike putting a dining room chair in the middle of the table with a steering wheel in your hand[actually about the same distance from the ground]....actually one would be better off wearing leathers...