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Plans for a revived South African Grand Prix from 2013 (merged)


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#1 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 00:22

So, with countries like the Ukraine and Vietnam lobbying (or considering lobbying) for Grands Prix, a new contender has emerged: South Africa. According to Reuters, officials from Cape Town will meet with Bernie Ecclestone over the coming months with a view to reviving the South African Grand Prix in 2013, 21 years after Formula 1 last visited the country (and the continent). The circuit, allegeldy to be built near Green Point Stadium on the Atlandtic coast, would be modelled on the Monaco Grand Prix.

I have to say, I'm keen on the idea. I've long maintained that Formula 1 needs to visit every continent (except Antarctica, obviously) in order to be a true World Championship. But please let me beat Tilke to the punch and suggest this as the layout:

Posted Image

I should get into the circuit design game.

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 26 January 2011 - 00:22.


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#2 Atreiu

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 00:36

World Championship status is irrelevant.

As for a new race in SA, Tilke already did this drawing some years ago, IIRC, it loked fantastic.
http://farm1.static...._078f69e654.jpg

#3 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 00:40

Yeah, but they want this one to be a street circuit. Or at least a circuit that can fit around the stadium on the Atlantic coast.

#4 r4mses

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 00:50

Yeah, another street circuit. Bring it on!

not.

Guess ppl down there got other issues to care about rather then hosting a F1 GP... just like in the Ukraine and Vietnam, btw.



#5 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 00:53

What would you say to a genuine street circuit, one that was a) actually like Monaco, without the acres of run-off, and b) properly fast?

And judging by the plans for the circuit outside Kiev, a Ukrainian Grand Prix could actually be a good thing. It certainly looked challenging enough.

#6 JockinSA

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 06:18

Hell not Capetown again! We have had here in the country comments of this type over and over again.
First off ,who is going to pay for it? Unless there is a change of provincial government,ie from the DA back to the ANC, I cannot see it full stop. Cape Town, never mind the whole country still has to pay for the World Cup, and there still aren,t very good ideas about that IMO.

The country cannot afford this, certainly current local motorsport cannot. The drain on available funds due to the World Cup are going to take some time to go away. And as for the persistent BLAH BLAH that the event will bring in all sorts of foreign funds this is also just nonsense, as we have seen with the World Cup. And the effect on the Centre of Cape Town with that proposal for the circuit will NOT be popular with the residents I think. Getting into that part of the city in the morning is bad enough as it is currently, and no, the place is not set out to expand other roads.

If these people who want to promote this event are serious, then let them pay for a new circuit to be built, give it over to the Western Province Motor Club to replace Killarney, which now has big problems due to encroached redevelopment of land, and lets see what they have to say. It will be a big fat NO ,I would think. They want the Provincial Government to pay for this nonsense, just as what happened here in Gauteng with the infamous GO_GP.org saga and the millions of Rands that cost with not one red cent back in the coffers.

If outside people are so keen to have a GP here, "because it would be great to have one on every continent" then by all means empty your pockets to pay for it yourselves.

Oh and by the way, I hold a position in motorsport here, so I am not some kind of killjoy.

#7 WhiteBlue

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 07:24

Irrespective of the question who pays it would be good to have at least one round of the championship in Africa. One can hope that somehow Bernie will fall on his sword over the Griebkowsky affair. Or we could see FiA and FOTA combine their political power to stop him and the FOM to rob the promoters and race goers of $660m this year and $m716m next year.

To charge an average of $33m for a race is obscene. It means the average ticket price for a race with 100,000 spectators will be $330 or that the tax payer will pay the difference which cannot be collected by ticket prices. Italy pays $5m for their race in Monza and Montezemolo complained that young people can buy an air ticket around the globe for the price of one F1 ticket. Somebody must make a lot of money if this is true. Other countries would love to have a GP for $5m. Actually they really should. An entry ticket should not cost more than $50. We would have a lot more interest at that price level.

Instead of an endless number of Asian races we should have at least one in North Africa and one in South Africa at a time when it is too cold for races in most of the northern hemisphere.

#8 JockinSA

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 07:34

Irrespective of the question who pays it would be good to have at least one round of the championship in Africa. One can hope that somehow Bernie will fall on his sword over the Griebkowsky affair. Or we could see FiA and FOTA combine their political power to stop him and the FOM to rob the promoters and race goers of $660m this year and $m716m next year.

To charge an average of $33m for a race is obscene. It means the average ticket price for a race with 100,000 spectators will be $330 or that the tax payer will pay the difference which cannot be collected by ticket prices. Italy pays $5m for their race in Monza and Montezemolo complained that young people can buy an air ticket around the globe for the price of one F1 ticket. Somebody must make a lot of money if this is true. Other countries would love to have a GP for $5m. Actually they really should. An entry ticket should not cost more than $50. We would have a lot more interest at that price level.

Instead of an endless number of Asian races we should have at least one in North Africa and one in South Africa at a time when it is too cold for races in most of the northern hemisphere.


Converting your 50 dollars to Rands makes a ticket at around 400 Rands here. If that was for the weekend yeh maybe. But we have enough problems getting people through the gates at 80 Rands. The masses here earn on average 3000 a month so that 400 would be a very large chunk of their earnings believe me.

#9 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 07:40

we should have at least one in North Africa and one in South Africa at a time when it is too cold for races in most of the northern hemisphere.

But there's not really anywhere in North Afria that could afford it.

#10 WhiteBlue

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 07:57

But there's not really anywhere in North Afria that could afford it.

This is why the cost must come down. Morokko (and Tunisia after some political stability returns) would be good places for F1.


#11 lustigson

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:02

But there's not really anywhere in North Afria that could afford it.

Why not Morocco, Tunesia, indeed, and Egypt? Those aren't poor countries.

#12 Clatter

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:05

What would you say to a genuine street circuit, one that was a) actually like Monaco, without the acres of run-off, and b) properly fast?

And judging by the plans for the circuit outside Kiev, a Ukrainian Grand Prix could actually be a good thing. It certainly looked challenging enough.


We don't need another circuit that is virtually impossible to overtake on.

#13 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:12

Saw the story as well and almost started a thread on it.

Being a south african myself, I would have liked it to happen. But under the circumstances the country has got a enough problems to deal with first. The money would be better spent on solutions for unemployment/crime etc.

Hahaha, and good luck with getting it to work in the cape. You know why it's called the mother city? Because everything takes 9 months to happen. Nice mountains though.

#14 Fastcake

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:16

Why not Morocco, Tunesia, indeed, and Egypt? Those aren't poor countries.

North Africa is not the most politically stable.

#15 JockinSA

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:23

Saw the story as well and almost started a thread on it.

Being a south african myself, I would have liked it to happen. But under the circumstances the country has got a enough problems to deal with first. The money would be better spent on solutions for unemployment/crime etc.

Hahaha, and good luck with getting it to work in the cape. You know why it's called the mother city? Because everything takes 9 months to happen. Nice mountains though.



You are soooo right. At least one other person sees the problems here the same as I do. Yes it would be wonderful to have a race here, but we have to be realistic about things and the same for North Africa. The only place that could possibly afford it there IMO would be Libya, though knowing BE that would not bother him at all. Get rid of the greedy Ba...... and we could all probably have a lottery as to where a GP went. Unfortunately it attracts the thieves to graze like sumo vultures after lent.

#16 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 08:55

You are soooo right. At least one other person sees the problems here the same as I do. Yes it would be wonderful to have a race here, but we have to be realistic about things and the same for North Africa. The only place that could possibly afford it there IMO would be Libya, though knowing BE that would not bother him at all. Get rid of the greedy Ba...... and we could all probably have a lottery as to where a GP went. Unfortunately it attracts the thieves to graze like sumo vultures after lent.


It really is an unfortunate state of events, as I think that the country can be an excellent host if the country can sort itself out. The additional investment from the soccer didn't really materialise. I doubt an F1 race will be any more beneficial. At least the soccer was here for a month, an F1 race will only be here for a week.

#17 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:07

Why not Morocco, Tunesia, indeed, and Egypt? Those aren't poor countries.

Go to Google News. Type in Tunisia and Egypt (separately). Tell me what you find. Then convince me that they can still host a race in their current condition.

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 26 January 2011 - 09:07.


#18 JockinSA

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:27

Everyone can say they want a GP, but in reality where does the money come from for these new GP's? it comes from government intervention with the intention of either making that particular government look good to the people by apparently indulging in job creation through infrastructure, or to supposedly put the country forward as a what ever they want to project.

Building a race track and hosting is all very well, but the whole thing becomes an economic nightmare to then keep going. Who is ultimately going to pay for it? The country's coffers are. A big eg is the Beijing Olympic Stadium. I am told by friends of mine from Athens that it will take 30 years to pay off their Olympic games and that was before their credit crunch.

All these countries that want a GP have government officials who want a hand in the pie somewhere along the line, and don't give a damn what the poor sucker in the street feels about it.

#19 BRK

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:29

What about the Durban street circuit layout that was used for A1 GP?

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#20 JockinSA

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:42

What about the Durban street circuit layout that was used for A1 GP?


A totally ANC local goverment backed event in conjunction with South Africa"s seat holder, who is an exremely senior ANC official. Not that well attended even though people say otherwise, and eventually got too much even for them. Hence the move to Kyalami for the last race, and again not earth shattering attendance. Remember that the area that Kyalami is in contributes about 60 per cent of the nations wealth and has the highest population density in the country. Even now Kyalami is in a serious financial situation and could disappear at any time for redevelopment, though we all hope that this will not occur. To the best of my knowledge it really did nott do a lot for the economy of Kwa Zulu Natal to have that race there. I reckon thats why we did not have the Indy cars come as well, as that was being projected to occur after the Australia race.

#21 Felix

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 14:01

. I reckon thats why we did not have the Indy cars come as well, as that was being projected to occur after the Australia race.


Plus the 'mover and shaker' behind the Indy Car race was one S Watson, who then to become GM of A1GP before being 'appointed' to run Go-GP etc which cost local taxpayers billions to stage 1 A1GP event, 2 SBK (poorly attended) races and 2 (disastrously attended) Superstars V8 races at Kyalami.

Before the wannabe promoters in CT crow too loudly they would do well to remember what Motorsport SA said last July when Ecclestone spoke of a GP in SA:

MOTORSPORT SA’s POSITION ON F1
In the wake of the very successful 2010 FIFA World Cup and SASCOC’s announcement to oversee a bid for the 2020 Olympic Games, the
controlling body of motorsport in the country, Motorsport South Africa (MSA) has positioned itself early towards the hosting of a
F1 Grand Prix in the country.

MSA through its Managing Director, Francois Pretorius and re-iterated by the Chairman of the Board of Directors, Dr George
Nyabadza, confirmed that it would support the hosting of a F1 event in the country with very clear provisions.

Dr George Nyabadza
Dr Nyabadza shared the sentiment of millions of F1-fans that it would be wonderful to have F1 back in South Africa. He however made
it clear that one of the conditions should be around the number of South Africans on the grid or at least with the opportunity,
based on skill, to get there. “F1 enjoys very little support in countries where there is no representation. Only when we can wave
our rainbow flag will there be public interest and national unity.” Another condition he would like to see included would be very
clear provisions of how much money would be generated for motorsport development, particularly in the female segment and the black
youth segments of South Africa. It would be irresponsible, he said, to host an F1 race and not have the stakeholders invest a
portion of the proceeds in these segments. ”There would be no legacy for the sport.”
He said a very realistic economic impact study needed to be done to weigh up the tangible benefits against the substantial costs,
especially considering the maximum stay by foreign visitors is now on average three nights for a F1 event. This would however, be
the domain of national government and sponsors.

Francois Pretorius
Francois Pretorius said any F1 event in South Africa would need to be inscribed onto the FIA calendar by MSA. The MSA Board’s
current position is that it would only support the hosting of such an event in South Africa if it provided concrete benefits to the
grassroots development of motorsport, which would happen under the auspices of MSA. He added that the immediate socio-economic
priorities in the country outweighed the possible long-term benefits of hosting the event unless a cogent and sustainable plan of
sport development was provided for.
Both Dr. Nyabadza and Francois Pretorius agree that the MSA Board would seriously consider support for any bidders prepared to
factor these provisions into their proposal.

Fri 16/07/2010

I polite way of saying NO?





#22 RC127

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 20:05

So, with countries like the Ukraine and Vietnam lobbying (or considering lobbying) for Grands Prix, a new contender has emerged: South Africa. According to Reuters, officials from Cape Town will meet with Bernie Ecclestone over the coming months with a view to reviving the South African Grand Prix in 2013, 21 years after Formula 1 last visited the country (and the continent). The circuit, allegeldy to be built near Green Point Stadium on the Atlandtic coast, would be modelled on the Monaco Grand Prix.

I have to say, I'm keen on the idea. I've long maintained that Formula 1 needs to visit every continent (except Antarctica, obviously) in order to be a true World Championship. But please let me beat Tilke to the punch and suggest this as the layout:

Posted Image

I should get into the circuit design game.


Nice design [seriously], but please - no more straights that aren't, um, straight!

#23 JockinSA

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 20:57

Felix thank you so much for your comment. Just got in from doing work for this weekend for the Zwartkops historic weekend. I did not want to say too much but you have hit the nail right on the head with what you said.

Please, everyone out there, remember that a lot of people in a lot of countries have no idea what a GP is and when the sums of money being spent on these type of events are revealed they have a lot of discontent. When I revealed tonight to serious amateur motor sport people the sums that have been talked about, they just lookrd at me as though I was from Mars. I actually asked point blank how much woould they be prepared to spend on a ticket to watch an event in Cape Town and the general concensus was about 300 Rands. When I told them what the converted current average price was they just fell about laughing and said "you got to be F....... jocking. Do they want a thousand people to watch. And if that's the track, then we suggest they take it over the unended flyover(a sight in CT of a motorway flyover that stops in mid air)

I again will say to you all; WE CANNOT AFFORD THE WORLD WANTING TO SEE A RACE HERE FOR THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE.

#24 phil1993

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:46

Posted Image

South Africa is set to make a proposal to Bernie Ecclestone for the country to return to the Formula One calendar in 2013.

It is hoped that the first race will be held in September 2013 around the streets of Cape Town.

The proposed 5,3-kilometre circuit starts and ends in Cape Town Stadium and winds its way along the major roads in Sea Point, Green Point and Mouille Point and, according to the Argus, the pitlane would be situated along Beach Road in Green Point.

Although the government of the Western Cape has not yet officially endorsed the bid, the submission to Ecclestone was compiled with inputs from the City of Cape Town, Motorsport SA, Cape Town Tourism and Wesgro.


I think the circuit looks great, going through a stadium would be awesome!

#25 Tarzaan

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:52

Please, no more street circuit...

#26 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:20

But the circuit looks different than the original one in the other thread.

That's because it's not an actual proposal. I invented it. It looks better than the above though, even if I do say so myself. The section through and around the stadium and n Jetty Street in that proposal look excruciating.

#27 HighwaytoHell

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:22

Running through the stadium is corny. Cut that whole section out and it doesnt look too bad.

Edited by HighwaytoHell, 21 February 2011 - 10:22.


#28 Baddoer

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:23

Valencia #2

#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:49

If they do decide to run through the stadium I hope they don't use a series of hairpins (like Indy T9-10) as depicted. Makes sense to use it as a grandstand though.

I can see the appeal of a steet circuit, but I think we have enough at the moment. I liked the look of that permanent track proposal from a few years ago. The one that was roughly triangular with long straights and fast corners. This would probably be better than Valencia though.

#30 phil1993

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:54

It should only be allowed if its going to be really bumpy, because that would rock. I should imagine that they have to go slowly through the stadium for safety reasons maybe. I'm also hoping there's no run off either.

#31 onemoresolo

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:13

I like the stadium idea. It would give it something unique from every other track. It may be "corny" but it would give the circuit something to seperate it and give it some identity.

However, the constant cutting back seems a bit rubbish, they could make more of it than that.

#32 Frans

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:56

Bahrain ... South Afrika .... what's next? The Grand Prix of Baghdad? ...


:down:

#33 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:24

What the hell is wrong with South Africa?

#34 HighwaytoHell

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:28

What the hell is wrong with South Africa?


it hosted an uninspired world cup. Zimbabwe would have a few good GP street circuits.

#35 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:33

Yes, because a series of exciting football matches is a major prerequisite for hosting a Formula 1 race. What are you afraid of? Vuvuzelas? I'm pretty sure that a Formula 1 car is the only thing on the planet that can drown out the noise they make.

#36 phil1993

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:35

it hosted an uninspired world cup. Zimbabwe would have a few good GP street circuits.


That was because the football was awful :rotfl:

#37 Gyan

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 13:08

it hosted an uninspired world cup. Zimbabwe would have a few good GP street circuits.


No South Africa, but yes Zimbabwe ?

#38 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 13:10

The problem with this circuit proposal is that it has clearly been designed in such a way that spectators will be able to see the cars for as long as possible. The downside is that it needlessly slows the cars down. Fans don't pay to see racing cars travel at low speeds.

#39 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 13:23

Not really sure how they are planning to drive into an out of the stadium, it will need a lot of modifications to make that happen.

Posted Image

And:

The proposed 5,3-kilometre circuit starts and ends in Cape Town Stadium

How is the race going to start on those stupid twisty hairpin bends in the stadium?

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#40 highdownforce

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 14:54

Not really sure how they are planning to drive into an out of the stadium, it will need a lot of modifications to make that happen.

Posted Image

Not really, remember that trucks are able to enter the stadium, a F1 car would follow the same path.

How is the race going to start on those stupid twisty hairpin bends in the stadium?

It won't, I guess. At least I've understood that the pit-lane would be located north (lower part of that picture) on the Beach Road, a wide flat coastal two way road.
http://maps.google.c...p=12,90.51,,0,5

#41 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 15:05

The previous pic didn't illustrate my point very well.

As you can see in this pic, the section where the track enters the stadium is blocked by the entrance gates, 4 flight of stairs and a concrete wall. There is no place for the cars to enter.

Posted Image

You cant just drive straight in and out of the stadium like they have it on the proposed circuit layout. You have to drive though the tiny access door that is half open near the bottom of the image.

Edited by johnmhinds, 21 February 2011 - 15:17.


#42 Risil

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 15:08

Jeez, and there I was thinking the London Olympic stadium 'legacy' dispute looked silly. :rolleyes:

#43 highdownforce

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 15:30

The previous pic didn't illustrate my point very well.

As you can see in this pic, the section where the track enters the stadium is blocked by the entrance gates, 4 flight of stairs and a concrete wall. There is no place for the cars to enter.

http://in4ict.com/wo...m-Cape-Town.jpg

You cant just drive straight in and out of the stadium like they have it on the proposed circuit layout.

Sorry, my bad. I haven't understood you at first.
Even so, I suggest you to look again at the picture (below) and at the map, specially the google maps link that I've provided.

Posted Image

The track doesn't cross those specific entrance gates, but I can't confirm if there are no other gates on the opposite side. I've checked with StreetView, no entrance gates, it's possible.

This link shows the possible southwest passage: http://maps.google.c...p=12,63.79,,0,5
Not much better.

Edited by highdownforce, 21 February 2011 - 15:41.


#44 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 15:46

AFAIK this is the only access along that side of the building. Which is why I said they'll probably have to modify the building to even make the idea work.
Posted Image

The other side where they exit has much better access.

Posted Image

#45 highdownforce

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 16:02

AFAIK this is the only access along that side of the building. Which is why I said they'll probably have to modify the building to even make the idea work.
http://f.cl.ly/items...wn-stadium1.jpg

The other side where they exit has much better access.

http://gadgetynews.c...own-stadium.jpg

You're absolutely right about needed modifications. by looking at pictures and streetview I can see that there's another access to the left of the one one you've pointed out, but in similar conditions.
Those two access coincide with the track layout but I don't think that this is enough. A lot of things would have to change, for instance outside of the stadium, those streets would have to be completely reprofiled. Those Fritz Sonnenberg and Vlei Road were not designed to support traffic and are not wide enough too. The complex of the stadium would be dramatically destroyed in a way that I don't see benefits.

Edited by highdownforce, 21 February 2011 - 16:03.


#46 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 16:21

They are seriously thinking of turning this into an F1 track?

http://maps.google.c...u...013733&z=17

#47 highdownforce

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 16:46

Good find!
Thinking? Yes, they are. Seriously? I don't have an idea.

Edit: I 've another one for you, that Granger St (southeast straight) has four roundabouts. And they look like this: http://maps.google.c...u...009602&z=17

Edit2: Btw, have you seen THE roundabout? http://maps.google.c...u...009602&z=17

Edit3: I guess this could be something like A1GP Durban round...
http://www.youtube.c...feature=channel


Edited by highdownforce, 21 February 2011 - 17:36.


#48 midgrid

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 17:28

Part of me thinks "This is ridiculous, how can this possibly work, too many slow corners".

The other part thinks "This is INSANE, I love it! And it's got some long straights, even if the fiddly bits don't work." :D

#49 johnmhinds

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 17:31

I've walked around the whole track on google streetview and a good 50% of the track is little more than backstreets or road hump happy pedestrianised areas that are totally unsuitable for an F1 track.

Maybe they can use the fact that the area seems like such a cluster **** of town planning to their advantage and maybe re-profile all the streets in the area, but that detracts from the plans of making it Monaco of South Africa.

Edited by johnmhinds, 21 February 2011 - 17:40.


#50 highdownforce

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 17:47

I've walked around the whole track on google streetview and a good 50% of the track is little more than backstreets or road hump happy pedestrianised areas that are totally unsuitable for an F1 track.

Maybe they can use the fact that the area seems like such a cluster **** to their advantage and maybe re-profile all the streets in the area, but that detracts from the plans of making it Monaco of South Africa.

You're right, only the Beach Rd (main straight) is immediately suitable, the back straight is too narrow and is essentially an back access to those buildings.

It's too insane to be true.
The beach side would be really beautiful if accomplished but the stadium complex would required a tremendous hack on the complex. That point you've showed us near The Grand Cafe is unconceivable to me.

But off course, this all could be just a fake plan or something decided without any specialist involvement.

Edited by highdownforce, 21 February 2011 - 19:44.