2001 replies to this topic

[Sevach]

It's just testing and come the first race anything can happen...

But Mclaren doesn't look that hot in testing, they are looking rather average imo (which is better than the MP4-24 that looked like a pathetic effort), but people keep getting angry when they hear that.

[VicR]

Felipe looked good yesterday and he looked good today as well. Hopefully I'm wrong that RBR are toying with everyone else. It looks promising but then you have the intra battle...

[siblin]

It's just testing and come the first race anything can happen...

But Mclaren doesn't look that hot in testing, they are looking rather average imo (which is better than the MP4-24 that looked like a pathetic effort), but people keep getting angry when they hear that.

I think thats reasonable to say (as a mclaren fan). I also think its reasonable to say its to be expected given that they were always coming into this test on the back foot, and theres a good chance that they will be able to bridge the gap, especially if there is extra time before the first race.

There have been some good indications that there are some innovative ideas shown this test, and once they've got the best of all worlds figured out i have no worries that they will be competative.

Guess we'll see at the next testing phase!

[vsubravet]

I think thats reasonable to say (as a mclaren fan). I also think its reasonable to say its to be expected given that they were always coming into this test on the back foot, and theres a good chance that they will be able to bridge the gap, especially if there is extra time before the first race.

There have been some good indications that there are some innovative ideas shown this test, and once they've got the best of all worlds figured out i have no worries that they will be competative.

Guess we'll see at the next testing phase!

Eh??!! Innovative ideas shown in this test? Like what?

[Ferrari2183]

It's just testing and come the first race anything can happen...

But Mclaren doesn't look that hot in testing, they are looking rather average imo (which is better than the MP4-24 that looked like a pathetic effort), but people keep getting angry when they hear that.

I have no idea what is going on over at Mclaren but it has to be said that they seem to be struggling. They don't seem slow though which I suppose is a positive for them.

[siblin]

Eh??!! Innovative ideas shown in this test? Like what?

i'm not biting ;) go look at the exhaust solutions

[boldhakka]

It's going to be pretty close again this season:

Ferrari clearly look very solid.
I wouldn't be surprised if RBR turns out either slightly better or slightly worse than the Ferrari.
LRGP look pretty strong as well, their race sims compare very favorably with Massa's and Webber's.
McLaren's speed is looking alright but reliability may be an issue and it may not have a wide operating window.
Merc is a turkey.
Williams and Torro Ross may surprise; especially in qualifying.

[Schumeister]

***NEWS JUST IN*** F1 teams have agreed to test in Barcelona from 8-11 March instead of in Bahrain, Williams chairman Adam Parr has told Reuters.

[sosidge]

Although I am not going to read anything concrete into the testing times, there is an obvious theme developing on this board from the hordes of McLaren supporters.

McLaren's laps are slow because they are evaluating new parts, are on brimmed tanks, and are using harder compounds than the others.

EVERYONE ELSE is doing glory runs. Even the cars doing race sims with fast pace over long stints.



The teams that seem to have run consistently solid times are Red Bull and Ferrari. The teams that have shown a lot of promise are Toro Rosso and Renault - although there is the shadow of sponsor-baiting from these two. McLaren have not shown any serious pace - perhaps it is an elaborate smokescreen although trackside reports suggest otherwise, and there is a point where a smokescreen turns into a fog that even the team can't see through.

[Birelman]

Felipe looked good yesterday and he looked good today as well. Hopefully I'm wrong that RBR are toying with everyone else. It looks promising but then you have the intra battle...

Yeah, I think this year the intra battle at RBR won't be as much of a factor though. Last year Webber played a lot with Vettel's head, now, Vettel is a little bit wiser, know's Webber's tricks, and more importantly, is a World Champion.

I think Webber will keep him honest, but I think that'll be as close as it's going to be, cus, I think we're going to see a very progressed Vettel this year.

My opinion, of course.

[BRK]

***NEWS JUST IN*** F1 teams have agreed to test in Barcelona from 8-11 March instead of in Bahrain, Williams chairman Adam Parr has told Reuters.

Excellent!

[hotstickyslick]

***NEWS JUST IN*** F1 teams have agreed to test in Barcelona from 8-11 March instead of in Bahrain, Williams chairman Adam Parr has told Reuters.

Makes sense. Barcelona is a much better track to test a car's raw performance than Bahrain is if not the best.

[MaxisOne]

Oh God Mercedes why do you torture me so wickedly !!!

I dont want to hear about new car at end of test season .. I want new FAST car NOW !!

[WhiteBlue]

Makes sense. Barcelona is a much better track to test a car's raw performance than Bahrain is if not the best.

It lacks really hot weather in early March as 8-11 March.

[jee]

It lacks really hot weather in early March as 8-11 March.

What is rahter good for us as the teams will have to find out how the new cars handle under warm/hot conditions.

[VicR]

Yeah, I think this year the intra battle at RBR won't be as much of a factor though. Last year Webber played a lot with Vettel's head, now, Vettel is a little bit wiser, know's Webber's tricks, and more importantly, is a World Champion.

I think Webber will keep him honest, but I think that'll be as close as it's going to be, cus, I think we're going to see a very progressed Vettel this year.

My opinion, of course.

True. But then you also have the factor in what direction Pirelli are going with the tyre "development". Some drivers voiced their concerns after Jerez and some drivers did it this weekend. I'm sure Alonso and Webber want the same thing.

[Sevach]

I think thats reasonable to say (as a mclaren fan). I also think its reasonable to say its to be expected given that they were always coming into this test on the back foot, and theres a good chance that they will be able to bridge the gap, especially if there is extra time before the first race.

There have been some good indications that there are some innovative ideas shown this test, and once they've got the best of all worlds figured out i have no worries that they will be competative.

Guess we'll see at the next testing phase!

I agree, a big team like Mclaren can definitely turn it around, and the car doesn't look like a complete disaster, just not that good right now.

The big question is, will they be able to do it in time for a WC run?

[Sevach]

Yeah, I think this year the intra battle at RBR won't be as much of a factor though. Last year Webber played a lot with Vettel's head, now, Vettel is a little bit wiser, know's Webber's tricks, and more importantly, is a World Champion.

I think Webber will keep him honest, but I think that'll be as close as it's going to be, cus, I think we're going to see a very progressed Vettel this year.

My opinion, of course.

Vettel sure seemed to have his head in the right place for the final stretch of the 2010 season, he didn't put a foot wrong in the final races.

If he carries that into 2011, it will be tough for Webber.

[Birelman]

Weber played a lot with Vettel? I dont know about that. What i saw was Markos, Vettel's best buddy trying to mess with Webers, unfairly.

I don't rate Vettel that much at all. I think were going to see more clumsy passing and desperate moves when he is not leading. So not much different than last year.

Ok, when somebody says something like this, I know I'm talking to somebody with limited knowledge of what it takes to drive a car fast. Vettel is a fine racing driver, he's not the best at the moment, but definetly tons of talent and lots of potential for the future, whoever fails to see that, don't know what he's saying.

Anyway, yes, Webber did play a good mind game last year, all credit to him to get in Vettel's head as he did, it's the only way he can beat the kid. While you are expecting the Vettel of mid year where he made a few mistakes, I'm expecting the Vettel of the latter part of the year where he simply toyed with the field, and possibly in a more flattering fashion with the confidence boost he'll get from becoming WDC. Lets wait and see what happens, but, give credit where credit is due. And, BTW, Vettel is not the only one who made mistakes, for the most part, everybody else made more mistakes than him, hence, he's World Champion and the others aren't.

Edited by Birelman, 21 February 2011 - 17:49.

[Scotracer]

Martin Brundle via Twitter:

"Mercedes has poor traction, McLaren looks shocking as if on cold tyres, Red Bull+Ferrari+Renault Lotus Lada+Williams all pounding round"

[Birelman]

What a bunch of condescending crap, Birelman. Read it again, i dont rate Vettel that much as you, meaning he wont blow Webber away as you said. Your concluding that because i have the opinion that I think the battle within red bull will be close - as much as this year was - that I have a limited knowledge? WTF.

Haha, you said you didn't rate him much at all, that's completely different than what you're saying now Sorry if I miss understood what you meant, but really, what you wrote originally certainly lends itself to be interpreted as I did, sorry though

I find it irritating sometimes when people say things like, they don't think a driver like Vettel is good, or that Alonso is crap, or that Hamilton this and that, because, all these drivers are excellent, and to excell within the excellent, you just don't do that if you're crap. And it's not the same as just winning a WDC, I mean, the things some of these drivers pull off sometimes, it's really a joy to behold, so that I can come to a forum and read (not meaning you, of course) from an armchair expert that that driver stinks, is just ridiculous. Most of these forumers have never placed a foot inside a racecar and are telling me what a driver should be like! LOL

Anyway, sorry if I missunderstood, hey, lets just wait and see how it turns out, I'm hoping for a great championship!!

[BigCHrome]

Although I am not going to read anything concrete into the testing times, there is an obvious theme developing on this board from the hordes of McLaren supporters.

McLaren's laps are slow because they are evaluating new parts, are on brimmed tanks, and are using harder compounds than the others.

EVERYONE ELSE is doing glory runs. Even the cars doing race sims with fast pace over long stints.

Get over yourself.

[hunnylander]

Martin Brundle via Twitter:

"Mercedes has poor traction, McLaren looks shocking as if on cold tyres, Red Bull+Ferrari+Renault Lotus Lada+Williams all pounding round"

It seems Martin has changed his view after favoring Lotus Renault GP as the only real Lotus.

[Jamiednm]

Ok, when somebody says something like this, I know I'm talking to somebody with limited knowledge of what it takes to drive a car fast. Vettel is a fine racing driver, he's not the best at the moment, but definetly tons of talent and lots of potential for the future, whoever fails to see that, don't know what he's saying.

He isn't a 'fine racing driver' at all. He is a fast driver, but he is by no means a fine racer. His race craft is shocking for a WDC. It will probably improve in time but he is far from a fine racing driver.

[Italiano Tifoso]

Interesting Q&A with Paul Hembery during testing today on Autosport...

15:03 Simon Berry in Southampton asks: My concern is that drivers will be going round at 80 per cent of the car's capability, just so they don't ruin the tyres. How much more gentle will they have to be? Will we still see drivers pushing the boundaries and making mistakes?

PH: Drivers will always push the boundaries to the edge of the envelope. There are different elements. They'll be driving to the limits of the whole package and one part of that is tyres, so yes they will still have to manage that situation.

This goes to demonstrate (obviousy better than i put it) the new found importance of managing tyres and it dictating overall performance more than in 2010. Tyres are no longer just a part of the car that the drivers don't need to think about, like the hans device. It actually needs to be managed carefully, some call this race craft. I think expecting great race craft from racing drivers is acceptable in the pinnacle of motorsport, but i have been wrong in the past.

I meant no disrespect to Newton with my comments and I thank the great timing of Paul Hembery from Pirelli clearly stating the point i was trying to make no more than a few hours after my post. Anyone would think we had been talking or something... Maybe that's why the Pirelli's are favouring Ferrari now???

I wouldn't be fooled by the outright testing times and Massa's end of session flyer; RB have a fair amount in hand i think. Both Ferrari and Red Bull know that they have a good package and both are trying to put the lime light on the other team. The only comments you can really trust come from the teams that are currently not at the pointy end. Buttons comments are probably less skewed than the Ferrari or Red Bull drivers i think.

No disrespect to McLaren but i think it is fair to say their chassis is not where they expected it to be, but they knew adopting a radical design would have a binary effect, either they would succeed or fail miserably. No one cares who comes second, so they made the right choice as it is very difficult to beat Newey at his own game, best to change the conventional thinking a little.

Ferrari have taken a different approach and this too may fail although it looks a little better for them at the moment, the tables can quickly turn.

[Italiano Tifoso]

No harm done, I enjoy your posts agreeing with me or not either way.

I think the issue is that you also don't rate Webber as much as I do, perhaps. To me, Webber and Vettel about the same thing, different weakness and strengths, but so far, about the same. Vettel is not on the level of Hamilton, and Button, not to mention Alonso, yet. He had the luck Massa didn't have in 2008, that's all. Last years it was Alonso's championship to loose and he did, actually I think Massa did deserve better in 2008 (without such a dominant car to boot and with a better team mate also), so if it were not for a poor 2010, Massa, Vettel, nothing much between them. Vettel is good, but not THAT good: I predict another close fight with Webber where he might win again in the end of course.

Also, just because a driver matures doesn't mean he will necessarily cut down mistakes. As the time goes by, he might improve in other areas, not necessarily in the clumsy passing dept. (see Coulthard). for example. Actually, maturity can even sometimes lead to more confidence, risk taking and more mistakes, since the driver can see himself as mature enough to not have to prove something to others. Alonso, for instance, made less mistakes in his first two titles than last year, does not mean he is less mature. He just easily brushes it off as racing. Just my humble opinion.

Don't agree with your assessment of Vettel.

I am a Webber fan also, but i think it is clear Vettel is in a different league. He has that natural "x factor", Webber has to work at his.
Race consistency and maturity is missing from Vettels game, but that will come. Maturity means not racing lap by lap but reading a race and the championship in general.
This is also something Lewis needs to learn as he made far too many risky race moves last year costing him valuable points. Of course if you take this too far you lose the killer instinct. It is the balance that is important.

But raw pace cannot be learned at this late stage of a drivers career. It is either developed during karting or not acquired at all. As an entire racing package, including raw speed, consistency and tech development i would rate the drivers roughly as follows;

Alonso, Lewis, Vettel, Kubica, Michael (yes he is still up there imo), Webber, Rosberg, Massa, Button, Rubens.

Edited by Italiano Tifoso, 21 February 2011 - 21:32.

[Mick34]

I have made an comparison between 5 race simulations I found. I counted all the laptimes together and came to the conclusion that Renault could be the quickest car out there.

The stats:

1. HEI
2. WEB +12,2
3. MSC +40,9
4. MAL +47,2
5. ROS +76,6

I could not find the race simulation times of Alonso, Massa and Vettel. These race simulations are held on different days during testing, so circumstances could have a big effect on the times.

Edited by Mick34, 21 February 2011 - 21:35.

[Zava]

I have made an comparison between 5 race simulations I found. I counted all the laptimes together and came to the conclusion that Renault could be the quickest car out there.

The stats:

1. HEI
2. WEB +12,2
3. MSC +40,9
4. MAL +47,2
5. ROS +76,6

I could not find the race simulation times of Alonso, Massa and Vettel. These race simulations are held on different days during testing, so circumstances could have a big effect on the times.

dude, those 5 race sims were done on all four days! afaik Webber did it on sunday, while Heidfeld on monday, Schumi friday, Rosberg saturday, not sure about Maldonado.
(not sure about Alonso but probably friday, Vettel did his on satuday, Massa on sunday)

[Fondmetal]

Weber played a lot with Vettel? I dont know about that. What i saw was Markos, Vettel's best buddy trying to mess with Webers, unfairly.

I don't rate Vettel that much at all. I think were going to see more clumsy passing and desperate moves when he is not leading. So not much different than last year.

Vettel is only good when out in front, he is not as good as say Hamilton who can attack and overtake.

[Kubiccia]

I don't bye this Ferrari glory run. I'm confident Red Bull have a big advantadge over them.

Renault and Mclaren are sandbagging more than those 2 but still I don't see them fighting with RBR, but maybe with Ferrari.

[Birelman]

No harm done, I enjoy your posts agreeing with me or not either way.

I think the issue is that you also don't rate Webber as much as I do, perhaps. To me, Webber and Vettel about the same thing, different weakness and strengths, but so far, about the same. Vettel is not on the level of Hamilton, and Button, not to mention Alonso, yet. He had the luck Massa didn't have in 2008, that's all. Last years it was Alonso's championship to loose and he did, actually I think Massa did deserve better in 2008 (without such a dominant car to boot and with a better team mate also), so if it were not for a poor 2010, Massa, Vettel, nothing much between them. Vettel is good, but not THAT good: I predict another close fight with Webber where he might win again in the end of course.

Also, just because a driver matures doesn't mean he will necessarily cut down mistakes. As the time goes by, he might improve in other areas, not necessarily in the clumsy passing dept. (see Coulthard). for example. Actually, maturity can even sometimes lead to more confidence, risk taking and more mistakes, since the driver can see himself as mature enough to not have to prove something to others. Alonso, for instance, made less mistakes in his first two titles than last year, does not mean he is less mature. He just easily brushes it off as racing. Just my humble opinion.

Actually, I think Webber is excellent! I think he's extremely fast, specially in qualifying trim. I think Webber even has all the phisical tools, speed, killer instinct, mind games, mental strength, a solid driver who knows how to make a car go fast, the only thing I feel, sadly for him, is that, he lacks that "IT" factor. Like Massa, he also lacks that "IT" factor. Some have it, some don't, it's what I like to call, the mark of a Champion. Just my opinion though, but I'm sure many will agree.

I think Vettel is a special talent, I elieve he has talents along the lines of the Hamiltons and the Alonsos, he's still got a ways to go to catch up, but, with time he might, the jury is still out, he certainly has the potential. Clumsy moves keeps coming up, but I do believe Webber reigns supreme in that department. Not everybody can have Lewis Hamilton's racecraft who has set the bar pretty high in this modern Formula 1, Hamilton is fast, AND an amazing racer, Alonso might not be ultimately as fast as either, but he's 10 times smarter than both put toghether. We'll see how Formula 1 plays out in the next 5, to 10 years, they'll do all the work, and we get to watch!!

[BigCHrome]

I think Vettel is a special talent, I elieve he has talents along the lines of the Hamiltons and the Alonsos, he's still got a ways to go to catch up, but, with time he might, the jury is still out, he certainly has the potential. Clumsy moves keeps coming up, but I do believe Webber reigns supreme in that department. Not everybody can have Lewis Hamilton's racecraft who has set the bar pretty high in this modern Formula 1, Hamilton is fast, AND an amazing racer, Alonso might not be ultimately as fast as either, but he's 10 times smarter than both put toghether. We'll see how Formula 1 plays out in the next 5, to 10 years, they'll do all the work, and we get to watch!!

Maybe someone should've reminded Alonso that he is smart in Valencia? Or Monaco? How about China? Smart people shouldn't make stupid mistakes like those, especially in their 9th season in F1.

[JackTorrance]

Are there any sector times available? Or top speed trap figures?

[Birelman]

Maybe someone should've reminded Alonso that he is smart in Valencia? Or Monaco? How about China? Smart people shouldn't make stupid mistakes like those, especially in their 9th season in F1.

Geez, it's been 9 years already for Alonso? Man, I feel so old all the sudden LOL

So, his career now equal's that of Senna in total seasons?

[tghik]

Don't agree with your assessment of Vettel.

I am a Webber fan also, but i think it is clear Vettel is in a different league. He has that natural "x factor", Webber has to work at his.

As an entire racing package, including raw speed, consistency and tech development i would rate the drivers roughly as follows;

Alonso, Lewis, Vettel, Kubica, Michael (yes he is still up there imo), Webber, Rosberg, Massa, Button, Rubens.

And now I don't agree with your assessment of Vettel. "He has that natural "x factor" somehow I can't see much of it. I have trouble remembering Vettel's memorable races. Maybe some can remind me of those and I'm not talking about races where he starts from pole and ends first in race. He is not known for defending properly from someone overtaking him, he has trouble overtaking himself, strategy difficult to judge but can't remember anything special, development questionable. (BMW letting him go for all those reasons). The only way he stands out is his qualifying but I still want to see him with a different teammate and especially in a worse car. Newey's designed car is so strong in qualifying that it's also hard to judge. Vettel maybe the best driver, could be very well, but for now he was lucky to be in the fastest car on the grid. I just can't remember him standing out with something exceptional while he was with STR. Look at Alonso, Lewis, Kubica, they can qualify, race, overtake, not make many mistakes, develop the car, especially Alonso and Kubica look like complete packages, Hamilton only needs to put his head in cold water from time to time and he'll be there too. Just thinking about it, can't remember Hamilton praised that much for his development skills.

[Italiano Tifoso]

And now I don't agree with your assessment of Vettel. "He has that natural "x factor" somehow I can't see much of it. I have trouble remembering Vettel's memorable races. Maybe some can remind me of those and I'm not talking about races where he starts from pole and ends first in race. He is not known for defending properly from someone overtaking him, he has trouble overtaking himself, strategy difficult to judge but can't remember anything special, development questionable. (BMW letting him go for all those reasons). The only way he stands out is his qualifying but I still want to see him with a different teammate and especially in a worse car. Newey's designed car is so strong in qualifying that it's also hard to judge. Vettel maybe the best driver, could be very well, but for now he was lucky to be in the fastest car on the grid. I just can't remember him standing out with something exceptional while he was with STR. Look at Alonso, Lewis, Kubica, they can qualify, race, overtake, not make many mistakes, develop the car, especially Alonso and Kubica look like complete packages, Hamilton only needs to put his head in cold water from time to time and he'll be there too. Just thinking about it, can't remember Hamilton praised that much for his development skills.

I saw a number of special moments with Vettel during his early career, very early on actually. I'm only sorry that such fine displays were lost on you.
But perhaps the most noteable was his 2008 pole and win at Monza in very tricky conditions in... wait a minute... an STR.

There were numerous other displays of skill and speed and of course immaturity back in 2007... "damn kids" - Webber 2007.

Not your fault though, either you have only been following F1 for 5 minutes or you have no capacity to assess talent down the back half of the grid. One or the other clearly.

Ask any intelligent F1 pundit with access to the drivers, or engineers who have worked with Vettel and they will tell you one thing, the kid is blindingly fast. That is the x-factor as far as i am concerned. You can't teach speed, you either have it or you don't and this kid has got it in spades. He has been around for 4 short seasons, perhaps in a few years time he would have delivered some races you will find memorable, others here can already see the talent, we don't need special circumstances to define his speed.

Sure, he is no Alonso, but give him time and he may get close, he has all the right foundations to be a legend of the sport.

Alonso and Kubica, spot on they are the benchmark for me also, Lewis is great to watch a real talent (just in the wrong team ;) )
But don't underestimate Vettel. Unlike 2009 a top 3 driver did win the title in 2010. He wasn't the best in 2010, but he was deserving.

Edited by Italiano Tifoso, 22 February 2011 - 02:48.

[slideways]

I saw a number of special moments with Vettel during his early career, very early on actually. I'm only sorry that such fine displays were lost on you.
But perhaps the most noteable was his 2008 pole and win at Monza in very tricky conditions in... wait a minute... an STR.

There were numerous other displays of skill and speed and of course immaturity back in 2007... "damn kids" - Webber 2007.

Not your fault though, either you have only been following F1 for 5 minutes or you have no capacity to assess talent down the back half of the grid. One or the other clearly.

He asked you for examples of Vettel's best races, except for the pole and win races, and you could only offer Monza which was pole and win!

From my opinion he did an absolutely superb qualifying, but it gave him a large advantage in the race as he had no spray to deal with.

[Italiano Tifoso]

He asked you for examples of Vettel's best races, except for the pole and win races, and you could only offer Monza which was pole and win!

From my opinion he did an absolutely superb qualifying, but it gave him a large advantage in the race as he had no spray to deal with.

Fuji 2007 - On for a podium, SC incident due to eratic Lewis behaviour under SC restart lead to an embarrasing dnf - before that in horrible conditions he was remarkable - Reminded me of 1998 Spa. Schumi was superb but a error facilitated by an intentionally very slow DC on the racing line lead to a dnf. He didn't win but was head and shoulders above the rest.

China a few weeks after a horror Fuji 2007 incident he finished 4th i think. Not easy to bounce back after all the flack from the media. STR

What tghik was after was not information on 2009 or 2010 but rather moments when he showed what talent he had in an inferior car i believe.
Sorry but i think the STR was pretty inferior in 2007 and 2008, i think Monza 2008 qualifies as a memorable race; a pole in difficult conditions in an STR and then he backed it up with a win in a dominating way is an exceptional performance when so many other drivers were struggling in the conditions, he was not in the best car in 2008 but his star was clear for most.

Brazil 2008 was also an exceptional race for Vettel. When rain hits he does quite well which is usually a good barometer for talent.
Brazil 2009 - 16th to 4th in the race, i think that was an exceptional drive.

There are numerous other drives that most would call memorable also, but i think i have said enough on this matter given the thread.

Edited by Italiano Tifoso, 22 February 2011 - 04:11.

[Afterburner]

Although I am not going to read anything concrete into the testing times, there is an obvious theme developing on this board from the hordes of McLaren supporters.

McLaren's laps are slow because they are evaluating new parts, are on brimmed tanks, and are using harder compounds than the others.

EVERYONE ELSE is doing glory runs. Even the cars doing race sims with fast pace over long stints.

Haven't you heard? Having the fastest time in testing only matters if it's your team that's fastest.

Edited by Afterburner, 22 February 2011 - 04:21.

[skid solo]

Brazil 2009 - 16th to 4th in the race, i think that was an exceptional drive.

Brazil 2009 Hamilton's 18th to 3rd was even better especially in the dog that was the MP4 24

[HoldenRT]

Vettel is only good when out in front, he is not as good as say Hamilton who can attack and overtake.

That's the only thing that Hamilton fans can cling onto.

Vettel has driven a car that has great downforce in 2009 and 2010 and great qualifying pace. However it lacks in top speed. Especially in 2009 vs KERS (remember the magic button? ). Hamilton has driven what is said to be the greatest engine in the field at the moment but has always had a car with great top speed. Even in Melbourne 2009 with a car that had awful rear downforce, Hamilton was overtaking cars on the straight (before the braking zone) due to KERS.

I hope it's obvious to everyone why it's easier overtake when your car is fast in a straight line vs when your car is fast mid corner. Especially in F1 when it's so hard to follow other cars due to turbulance.

Did you see what happened to Hamilton in Brazil and Abu Dahbi 2010? How many overtakes? He couldn't overtake when the car infront had higher top speed. He had slower cars infront but where was this genius overtaker?

These are all generalisations though. Vettel HAS overtaken cars. Check his overtake on Rubens round the outside in Brazil 2009. He had some good overtakes in Silverstone 2010. And Hamilton has done lots of good overtakes where it was in the braking zone, not due to straight line speed. Hamilton has never driven a car like the Redbull though, and Vettel has never driven a car like the McLaren. Except for maybe some 2008 STR races where it lacked overall speed.

Hamilton has always either had a - a fast car, even in 2009, the worst car he's ever had it was still fast enough for a dominant win in Hungary or consistant purple sectors in Bahrain S1 or b - a car with great top speed.

Despite all that, I'm not saying Hamilton can't overtake. Saying Hamilton can't overtake would be as silly as saying Vettel can't overtake. But Hamilton wouldn't seem anywhere near as good if the car he had in Brazil and Abu Dahbi 2010 was the car he always has, and Vettel would seem alot better at overtaking if he always had a straight line speed advantage.

The other point is.. even if you have fastest car and fastest top speed it doesn't mean you will overtake. To be the fastest and to overtake means you are out of position. The whole point is to start from pole, if you don't start from pole it's usually because you made a mistake. If you make no mistakes you shouldn't be in a position to overtake. Unless you have some bad luck, like a puncture in Silverstone or a grid penalty.

[JackTorrance]

That's the only thing that Hamilton fans can cling onto.

Vettel has driven a car that has great downforce in 2009 and 2010 and great qualifying pace. However it lacks in top speed. Especially in 2009 vs KERS (remember the magic button? ). Hamilton has driven what is said to be the greatest engine in the field at the moment but has always had a car with great top speed. Even in Melbourne 2009 with a car that had awful rear downforce, Hamilton was overtaking cars on the straight (before the braking zone) due to KERS.

I hope it's obvious to everyone why it's easier overtake when your car is fast in a straight line vs when your car is fast mid corner. Especially in F1 when it's so hard to follow other cars due to turbulance.

Did you see what happened to Hamilton in Brazil and Abu Dahbi 2010? How many overtakes? He couldn't overtake when the car infront had higher top speed. He had slower cars infront but where was this genius overtaker?

These are all generalisations though. Vettel HAS overtaken cars. Check his overtake on Rubens round the outside in Brazil 2009. He had some good overtakes in Silverstone 2010. And Hamilton has done lots of good overtakes where it was in the braking zone, not due to straight line speed. Hamilton has never driven a car like the Redbull though, and Vettel has never driven a car like the McLaren. Except for maybe some 2008 STR races where it lacked overall speed.

Hamilton has always either had a - a fast car, even in 2009, the worst car he's ever had it was still fast enough for a dominant win in Hungary or consistant purple sectors in Bahrain S1 or b - a car with great top speed.

Despite all that, I'm not saying Hamilton can't overtake. Saying Hamilton can't overtake would be as silly as saying Vettel can't overtake. But Hamilton wouldn't seem anywhere near as good if the car he had in Brazil and Abu Dahbi 2010 was the car he always has, and Vettel would seem alot better at overtaking if he always had a straight line speed advantage.

The other point is.. even if you have fastest car and fastest top speed it doesn't mean you will overtake. To be the fastest and to overtake means you are out of position. The whole point is to start from pole, if you don't start from pole it's usually because you made a mistake. If you make no mistakes you shouldn't be in a position to overtake. Unless you have some bad luck, like a puncture in Silverstone or a grid penalty.

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Hold on man! Go easy on us! Thats an awfull lot of sense in one post on the racing comments board. Takes time to digest this.

[BigCHrome]

RBR damage control.

If Lewis had a car like the RB6 he would never have to overtake anyone

[HoldenRT]

I don't know who is better out of Hamilton vs Vettel, I just think there is not many big differences between them. Probably wouldn't know unless they were on the same team. And also get a kick out of Vettel fans saying they don't think Hamilton is special, and Hamilton fans saying they don't think Vettel is special.

[HoldenRT]

If Lewis had a car like the RB6 he would never have to overtake anyone

Like in Monaco 2009? He had virtually the same car that he had in Hungary. And he pulled an Alonso and binned it.

[JackTorrance]

If Lewis had a car like the RB6 he would never have to overtake anyone

No, just needs extra brain capacity to spot red lights and stationary cars.

Back on topic: does nobody have any info on the topspeeds and sector times of the test? Im very curious.

Edited by JackTorrance, 22 February 2011 - 07:57.

[ForzaGTR]

Vettel should have had the WDC in the bag way before the last race, the difference is, Hamilton would have! So would Alonso. Vettel had by far the best car over the course of the season, a luxury that Hamilton has never had.