37 replies to this topic

[RedFever]

with all the criticism about Mazza being signed by Prost, the question comes.....have there been good pay drivers, people who got a seat because of their wealth, but still managed to deliver?

[vroom-vroom]

Niki Lauda

[jimmy mike]

Well, i don't know about his personal wealth, but at 1991 and 1992 Mika Hakkinen paid quite considerable amount of money to the Lotus team to get the racing seat. In fact MH's manager Keke Rosberg invested lot of his own money just to get Mika to F1. So even thought MH was British F3 champion he had to buy his place in F1. And later Hakkinen has delivered ...

[ZZMS]

So what?

First race of MS was bought by Mercedes...

[RedFever]

ZZMS, get a grip. Jimmy wasn't criticising Mika, in fact, he finished his post by saying Mika DELIVERED. May I suggest some valerian???

[Todd]

I think the key lies in the phrase "people who got a seat because of their wealth." Michael and Mika did not get their breaks because of their wealth. They got to F1 by impressing people who could provide the funding needed. I suppose Niki Lauda is the one. He was a great driver, but he paid for his break with money that he didn't get because of his driving talent. You could also say that he did it because he believed he was good enough, not because he was a wealthy playboy.

[Todd]

What is valerian? Do you have any samples?

[John B]

Surely De Cesaris has the longetivity record

[RedFever]

it's an herb, calms you down.......I used to take it before skydiving at first. It comes also in convenient pills

Lauda was kind of paying driver. I mean, he did pay but his wealthy dad didn't give him a penny because he didn't want him to race. So he went to a bank and convinced them to give him a loan. Basically, as Todd said, he was convinced of his own talent and bet on himself

DeCesaris was already a paid driver as soon as he raced for Alfa Romeo and contrary to Mazza, had good success in F2

[danut]

Funny, I wanted to post the same question!
I think this would be better answered by the people in the Nostalgia Forum...
Anyway, what do we understand by a pay driver? For me this is the guy that has to pay for his F1 ride season after season, and his - or his father's or his sponsor's - money are the only reason he is driving in F1.
Even though MS and other great drivers as Lauda had to pay or to have someone pay for their first F1 races, they cannot be included in this category.
The best example of a pay driver I can think of is Diniz, who brings Parmalat money because his father is the biggest Parmalat distributor in Brazil.
Dan

[RedFever]

Even though MS and other great drivers as Lauda had to pay or to have someone pay for their first F1 races, they cannot be included in this category.

I agree. These drivers (add Mika and many other top guns) were sponsored by someone to get a seat, but the sponsorship didn't come because of dad but because they had impressed someone willing to invest on their talent. That is not a pay driver, that's someone who got already his break. Besides, Mika and Schumi are the two best paid drivers in the world, hard to accuse them of being pay drivers......

[hyper!! james]

Pedro de la Rosa.

Repsol get their moneys worth in him.

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by RedFever
ZZMS, get a grip. Jimmy wasn't criticising Mika, in fact, he finished his post by saying Mika DELIVERED. May I suggest some valerian???

Red, you do not get it, don't you?

I was merely pointing out that the fact that MS had to pay for the first drive didn't make him pay driver. The same applies to Mika. They do not belong to the category.

Now may I suggest some valerian?

[Indian Chief]

Pedro de la Rosa in recent times is the best pay driver. He pays 8 Million USD for a crappy Arrows drive and those idiots can't even make the car reliable!

Niki Lauda is probably the best (and the first) pay driver of all time.

[westendorf]

yep, ONE NIKI LAUDA

[Ray Bell]

Yet another world champion paid for his first F1 drive. He already had a seat in a Sports Car team, but wanted to graduate.
It's not exactly a full-season thing, I know, and if he'd just waited one more race...
Phil Hill was the one, and he hired a Maserati 250F for the French GP of 1958, the race in which his team mate, Luigi Musso was killed. He was going to graduate anyway, it would seem...

[MattFoster]

Being biased I would have to say de Cesaris

[RedFever]

pointing out? you made no other comment than saying also Schumi was a pay driver because Mercedes paid for the Jordan seat.

it is very hard to read into your mind, if you don't type entirely what you want to say........

[Gruff]

I heard Barrichello paid EJ for his first year (and second?) year at Jordan (93/94). Although the magazine where I read it may have been bullshXtting.

Recently:
Diniz has scored a about 10 pts while paying.
Gene looked good in his 1st year, but his BMW-Wills times are quite dissapointing.
Tuero, Trulli (did he pay?) & Fisichella were worth their drives at Minardi too.

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by RedFever
pointing out? you made no other comment than saying also Schumi was a pay driver because Mercedes paid for the Jordan seat.

it is very hard to read into your mind, if you don't type entirely what you want to say........

Red,

I didn't say he was a pay driver. Re-read my initial post pls. You implied that.

I do not see any reason why you got hard-on. You were the one in a rush.

I'm neither interested in the war of words no have a desire to continue this thread of this thread. Have a nice day.

[John]

Marlboro pays for MS now right? It doesn't make him a pay driver. When a driver starts out with sponsorship money, he isn't a pay driver? I am getting a bit confused on this debate. Aren't the pay drivers now using sponsorship money? I think so. Didn't Ayrton Senna start in F1 with his family's money?

Nikki Lauda used his own money. That sounds like a pay driver too. He didn't have to stay a pay driver for long.

[hyper!! james]

Marlboro don't come with Schumi. Marlboro give Ferrari enough money to afford him.

My understanding of a pay driver is someone who puts more money into a team than he gets out. So anyone who isn't being paid by a team is a pay driver. I understand that de la Rosa is paid by Repsol who also give Arrows money and fuel to take him.

[senninha]

Originally posted by John
Didn't Ayrton Senna start in F1 with his family's money?

No, of course. Where did tou heard it ????


Piquet not paied, but run for free in 79 and 80 season due a nice contract did by ... Bernie Ecclestone.

[argos]

Originally posted by John
Didn't Ayrton Senna start in F1 with his family's money?

I think what you are referring to is very early in his career. Senna actually moved up slower than a number of other drivers whose names are now F1 footnotes because his family was not wealthy enough to buy him a F1 ride.

[senninha]

Originally posted by argos

Originally posted by John
Didn't Ayrton Senna start in F1 with his family's money?

I think what you are referring to is very early in his career. Senna actually moved up slower than a number of other drivers whose names are now F1 footnotes because his family was not wealthy enough to buy him a F1 ride.

As Senna's dad is a farmer and I never saw a cow pictured in all Senna's cars I doubt. Excpeted in go-karts, as everybody.

Senna, when went to England had good sponsorships as : Pool (jeans factory), Banerj (bank of Rio de Janeiro State), Gallery and others...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Senna did FFord, F2000, F3, F1

I dont see where he went up slower than other guys because of money

[argos]

As I recall the first time Senna went to Europe he became frustrated because he felt lack of financing was allowing other better financed but lesser talented drivers to move up and so he returned home.

[senninha]

Originally posted by argos
As I recall the first time Senna went to Europe he became frustrated because he felt lack of financing was allowing other better financed but lesser talented drivers to move up and so he returned home.

No, Senna came back to Brazil due an agreement with his father. To take care of dad's business and study.

But Senna coulnd't resist and came back to England. But he went too late to find a seat at brit F3. So, he "lost" one year in FF2000.

[argos]

From: http://www.ddavid.co...la1/sen_bio.htm

"He came to England in 1981 to race Formula Ford 1600 for Ralph Firman and his Van Diemen team. Now married to Liliane Vasconcelos and living in a rented bungalow near Snetterton he quickly adapted to the 1600 cc cars. Races were held almost every weekend and at Brands Hatch, Ayrton debuted in eighth place. A week later at Thruxton he was third. That year there were three series running concurrently, two of which he contested, and he soon found himself back at Brands Hatch. Van Diemen seeing the potential in their young driver assigned him their newest car, which he promptly put on the pole. The race was run under wet conditions and few could match his skill under these conditions. That first year in England saw him win both of the series that he contested. Ayrton was now at a crossroad in his life and to continue his racing career he would need sponsorship. With several other Brazilian drivers ahead of him in higher formulas the sponsorship money required was not available. Frustrated, Ayrton announced his retirement stating that a bad driver with money could always get the best car but a good driver without the same was left out. He returned to Brazil and worked in his father’s building supplies business. After four months the fire that had not been extinguished continued to burn inside him and he made the decision to return to motor racing, his wife would not. Having grown up in a life of luxury Liliane knew that life with Ayrton would be difficult and that many sacrifices would be necessary as he struggled to move up the ranks. They mutually decided to separate and his father would provide partial sponsorship in addition to a Brazilian bank for another year of racing. In 1982 he won 22 races and the championship for that year.

[senninha]

"Ayrton Senna - the hard edge of the genius" - by Christopher Hilton has the reality (chapter 4).

Senna's father was initially against his dream of beeing full time driver.

[John]

argos,
Thanks very much for maintaining my sanity. I wasn't sure about his money situation in F1 at the begining, which is why I posted the question. I remember reading that excerpt, and to answer senniha's question, I couln't recall which formula he needed family money for, but I thought it was much higher than the FF. I recall the pictures of Senna in his racing uniform, almost blank, due to the lack of sponsorship for a drive, and that he had to use family money to start. It just wasn't for F1. Good enough, he wasn't a pay driver for F1. He was for 1600cc then.

[magic]

ap claimed never to have paid a franc to race.

[Ronan]

Wasn't Ayrtons conflict with his father over his auto racing career responsible for him dropping Da Silva from his name....distancing himself essentially from a factor that was keeping him back from what he wanted.

But i digress, i'd say Diniz, for all the Parmalat bucks he brought in was a good driver, as far as i could see, he's a far more effective driver in the rain than Jacques, and failed in overtaking Irvine on the run up to Les Combes at Spa in 97, shading Damon easily...mentioned in another thread was his 6th place in the sopping wet 96 Spanish GP, he was no Ayrton, but strangely, he showed more to me than Jacques ever has. Jacques has used other cars as brake points eg: Canada 2000, poor Ralf didn't know what hit him, then he complains about his collision with Zonta at Hockenheim....shame shame.

[argos]

John,

I think most drivers need money either from their families or from sponsorships they can develop to get started in the lower levels. IMHO generating money for racing is just as important as skill when moving up the ladder. Some drivers will then have their skills recognized and not have to pay to reach the upper levels (Senna) while others need financing one way or another to get that break (Lauda). Both examples are 3 time world champions and before his accident at N-ring Lauda was as dominant a driver as anyone ever in F1. I don't think it really matters how someone manages to get the opportunity to race F1, but it's how well they capitolize on that opportunity. IMHO, of course.

Aside: It takes a tremendous amount of money to run a competitive FF campaign. In the US, for every FF National Champion that moves on to greater glory (Jimmy Vasser in CART) there are dozens that are never even get close to the upper levels of the sport.

Another aside: After a number seasons with mixed results in SCCA club racing, I was able to put together 2 fairly successful seasons in FV. My mechanic and I put together a budget to race in F/SV, a popular pro series in the US in the mid to late 70's and stepping stone to CART (eg Arie Luyendyke among others). Our budget would have required ~$100,000US for a one car/2 motor effort that essentially would allow us to run each race in the series. To have a chance at being competitive would have required a budget in the $200,000-300,000US range. As I wasn't wealthy I decided to go to college instead. My racing was and still is in club racing and I've never second guessed that decision.

[argos]

Originally posted by Ronan
Wasn't Ayrtons conflict with his father over his auto racing career responsible for him dropping Da Silva from his name....distancing himself essentially from a factor that was keeping him back from what he wanted.

I think initially this was the case. When Ayrton made his second venture to Europe I believe he did so with his father's support. I think his father also helped in securing sponsorship from Banerj, a bank in Rio de Janeiro.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by Gruff
I heard Barrichello paid EJ for his first year (and second?) year at Jordan (93/94). Although the magazine where I read it may have been bullshXtting.

Recently:
Diniz has scored a about 10 pts while paying.
Gene looked good in his 1st year, but his BMW-Wills times are quite dissapointing.
Tuero, Trulli (did he pay?) & Fisichella were worth their drives at Minardi too.

I beleive Rubens paid right up until he went to Stewart. Corona Beer and Davene cosmetics I beleive paid his way, as well as a deal with Pepsi. However these deals were personal deals with Rubens, not the team. So the company paid Rubens personally, and he them took money out of his account to fund his ride, so he made alot of profit. I had heard in 96 his income was something like $8-million pounds, while his Jordan ride cost $4.5-million. But when you are on the most followed Brazlian athletes, that sort of money comes easy.

I dont think Gene's times are that bad...he has beaten Juan a few times...and certainly Gene is no Indy/CART Champion.

As for Minardi drivers, they all pay. If Im not mistaken, Martini was one of the few paid Minardi drivers. Trulli didnt pay directly, he was under contract with Briatore (and still is I think) and I beleive at the time Flav owned a piece of the Minardi pie...along with Ligier. From recent times I know Gene and Mazzacane paid, Katayam paid ($3-million UK) Nakano paid, Tuero paid, Lavaggi etc.

Diniz I think has the record for the single most paid in a season. In 1997 when he teamed with Hill, reportatly he forked over $8-million pounds UK, or roughly $13-million-US. That sum was paid by Parmalat (makers of milk products), Kibon (a ice cream maker) and Arisco (a food sauce maker). Im not sure if all 3 are owned by the same company though...[p][Edited by Nathan on 01-13-2001]

[senninha]

Originally posted by argos

Originally posted by Ronan
Wasn't Ayrtons conflict with his father over his auto racing career responsible for him dropping Da Silva from his name....distancing himself essentially from a factor that was keeping him back from what he wanted.

I think initially this was the case. When Ayrton made his second venture to Europe I believe he did so with his father's support. I think his father also helped in securing sponsorship from Banerj, a bank in Rio de Janeiro.

I'm glad you read the Hilton's book. BTW: is a very good book. What about remember Senna had a offer to recieve a salary to run in brit F3. But he refused in order to find a better team.
Senna's back in FF2000 was supported entirely by Banerj. BTW: i worked there.

In fact, i know a lot about Senna's career pre-F1. Any more question ?

[argos]

Hmmm.....I'm not really sure what to ask but would be interested in any information you would like to share.