225 replies to this topic

[DarthWillie]

I would not at all be surprised if Vettel arrived at Ferrari together with Newey

[weareracing]

For Ferrari I choose Scheckter-Villeneuve because they put the TEAM 1st, not their ego's.

Sorry but Alonso-Hamilton seems a little short of Senna-Prost for McLaren, and the latter were not STEALING data from their rivals.

[George Costanza]

I would not at all be surprised if Vettel arrived at Ferrari together with Newey

Newey at Ferrari? hmm...

[flyer121]

I think you have no idea how strong Alonso's position really is: http://i45.tinypic.com/vh5nyw.png

He accepted Vettel and blocked Hamilton - he is probaly absolutely sure that he can easily dominate Vettel. And don't forget that Alonso and Webber are mates, they probably talked about Vettel, his strenghts and weaknesses. Webber surely knows about Vettel something more.

Another thing is car characteristic, Ferrari very often create a car that is difficult to drive. If they built again this sort of car in 2014...then Vettel is done.

I would have no problem with Alonso/Vettel pairing. Actually I can't wait (however, stable car = Vettel occasionally faster than Alonso in qualy, that is my bet )

I kinda agree that his position looks strong ... but I ve to give credit to Nando for creating that illusion !! He acts like he is the TP and SD his towel boy

Nando should have been in business or politics - he would go very far ... I actually mean that in a positive way and give credit where its due...

But the fact remains that Ferrari s last title was 5 years back with the driver they booted unceremoniously .... something doesnt add up here .... either Ferrari have changed their policies or have lowered their sights. Otherwise Nando would have been a goner by now !!

Anyway coming back to Vettel - No one knows who will come on top and there s a chance that Nando can finish higher over a season if Vettel suffers reliability etc but it would be exciting anyhow... I dont expect Vettel to runaway in points even if he handily beats Nando in Qualis.

[Watkins74]

^
You poor kids...you will never get over the ********.

Edited by Watkins74, 21 June 2012 - 00:41.

[Pamphlet]

Vettel will replace Massa at Ferrari and a lot of Alonso fans will have their needed dose of reality.

My two cents.

That's pretty much the only difference.

I'd love to see Vettel at Ferrari, following in his mentor's footsteps.

For Ferrari I choose Scheckter-Villeneuve because they put the TEAM 1st, not their ego's.

Sorry but Alonso-Hamilton seems a little short of Senna-Prost for McLaren, and the latter were not STEALING data from their rivals.

You're not really trying to defend McLaren for Spygate, are you? Alonso did the right thing.

Edited by Pamphlet, 21 June 2012 - 01:13.

[V8 Fireworks]

Can't see Ferrari wanting vettel since they already have a number 1 driver

Yes, Ferrari should save money and sign Perez, getting a good driver who might even make some surprises against Alonso and win a WDC one day.

But this is Ferrari!

They make crazy decisions! Like bringing in Raikkonen early, instead of letting Schumi go 'round for a few more seasons. [why was it so important to promote Massa - who was far less impressive than Perez - to a race drive? they could have sent Massa to Toro Rosso-Ferrari or Force India-Ferrari perhaps and had a barn storming Schumacher/Raikkonen pairing] [McLaren also make some crazy decisions - it was they who put huge efforts into signing Montoya no less, then flunked out twice when they signed Kovalainen on the pretense of finding the next Raikkonen)

Ferrari see Vettel with Schumacher like success, so they want to sign Vettel, even at great cost. Always signing the form driver of 2-3 seasons ago. Not a bad ploy and it will give them a strong line up. But they should have more confidence in Perez's rapid learning and ability.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 June 2012 - 02:05.

[V8 Fireworks]

But the fact remains that Ferrari s last title was 5 years back with the driver they booted unceremoniously .... something doesnt add up here .... either Ferrari have changed their policies or have lowered their sights. Otherwise Nando would have been a goner by now !!

Fernando may win the wdc this year?

[CatharticF1]

What if their first driver is not able to get the job done again this year? Do Ferrari go and risk being losers again for the 5th year in a row by retaining Alonso in 2012? Particularly if they aren't even runners up with Hamilton or someone bumping them down further in the order this year.

Vettel seems to be willing to move to Ferrari. Ferrari has a tradition of firing people every year that they do not win the championship.

When I peak into Ferrari F150th thread I get the impression that it is common among Ferrari fans to be somewhat negative about Ferrari's chances ..

If you dislike Fernando then be more direct about it. Don't present a thread like this where you write it between the lines.

Fernando is considered (even here in an Anglicised forum) to be doing better than any other driver this season.
Fernando was voted the best driver in F1 by his peers a year or two ago.
Recent statements by Ferrari hint at Vettel co-existing with Alonso - not replacing him.

I would prefer Alonso to Vettel, though Ferrari like any other team are capable of supporting two drivers equally where there is little to nothing between them.

Edited by CatharticF1, 21 June 2012 - 02:59.

[V8 Fireworks]

Independent of what has gone down in terms of 2014, I don't foresee Vettel heading over to Ferrari like a lost sheep and subjecting himself to whatever may come.

http://en.wikipedia....#Career_results ... Champ to chump, constantly beaten by new team-mate and from fighting for 1st to fighting for somewhere between 11th to 21st...

I know touring cars are stupid in a sense (so it's more expensive and has more hand made aluminium/carbon parts than a Ferrari 458, yet it laps anywhere from slower to much slower and has no intrinsic on-going resale value since it's a "home made" special with a worthless sedan body from some mundane brand.. what a silly idea for a race car), but if the technical department have lost the plot, then that's that. This is not the case at Ferrari though, but it is quite possible that fundamental problems go unfixed for 3-4 seasons.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 June 2012 - 03:37.

[velgajski1]

There's no driver currently in F1 who won the WDC without a dominant car. Certainly at least an arguably dominant and usually a quite cut and dried dominant.

Schumacher's countless WDCs -- Rory Byrne machines no one could touch. Alonso's WDCs -- mass-dampered and bulletproof Renault V10 monsters of R25 & R26 no one could touch. Hamilton -- the most competitive McL of the last decade (excluding possibly the year prior's MP4-22 but nonetheless clearly averaged out best car for any single driver across 2008). Button in the absurdly advantageous DDD Brawn.

The biggest thing in common among these drivers is that their results outside of dominant machines have been positively mediocre (except, remarkably enough, Vettel who was winning races and outscoring Red Bull team in an STR). These are the explanations for Schumacher last year. These are the explanations for Alonso the years other than 05 and 06. These are the explanations for Button only achieving success so late in his career. Take Hamilton out of a top 3 car and I'm quite confident the results would not be altogether different.

Hamilton 2008. He basically won that season on wet races, in dry it was 3rd best car for most of the season (with BMW being 2nd car for first third of season, then McLaren 2nd best, then Renault 2nd best). Ferrari was by far most dominant car of that season.

[Nobody]

Best Ferrari pairing since Villeneuve-Pironi would be Alonso-Vettel.

Reckon we're underestimating the Schumi-Rubens pairing at Ferrari.

If only Rubens hadn't signed a contract with 'that clause', then again Ferrari offered no other option.

[v@sh]

There's no driver currently in F1 who won the WDC without a dominant car. Certainly at least an arguably dominant and usually a quite cut and dried dominant.

Schumacher's countless WDCs -- Rory Byrne machines no one could touch. Alonso's WDCs -- mass-dampered and bulletproof Renault V10 monsters of R25 & R26 no one could touch. Hamilton -- the most competitive McL of the last decade (excluding possibly the year prior's MP4-22 but nonetheless clearly averaged out best car for any single driver across 2008). Button in the absurdly advantageous DDD Brawn.

The biggest thing in common among these drivers is that their results outside of dominant machines have been positively mediocre (except, remarkably enough, Vettel who was winning races and outscoring Red Bull team in an STR). These are the explanations for Schumacher last year. These are the explanations for Alonso the years other than 05 and 06. These are the explanations for Button only achieving success so late in his career. Take Hamilton out of a top 3 car and I'm quite confident the results would not be altogether different.

While I agree with the rest of your post to a large degree, I can't believe the rubbish that is sprouted about Vettel's win in the TR (where fans keep thinking in won in a Minardi which a load of rubbish as well - a Minardi is one that Marques or Yoong or Alonso or Webber drove not a Newey designed car with Ferrari power).

- He won one race with TR (I didn't see him winning any other races)
- That race was perfect conditions for TR, Newey's chassis that year was brilliant in the wet and the Ferrari had greater horsepower than the Renault of the RB (look at them at the bottom of the speed traps)
- BOTH TRs would have outqualified BOTH RBs had Webber not pipped Bourdais late on in qualifying

Taking away nothing from Vettel did what he does best which was lead from the front and stay there but him being a great driver in the TR when the car + weather suited the track at the right time is often overlooked by fans.

I don't see him with Alonso/Hamilton which IMO Alonso is the same so he would have no problems with Vettel coming over. Vettel doesn't also have Dr. Marko pulling strings for him like he had at TR and now RB. If he does go over to Ferrari and he beats Alonso then he would be considered a great to me. Out of the younger drivers, Hamilton/Vettel are the natural successors to Alonso which you can see why Ferrari have gone that direction.

[rmhorton]

I would not at all be surprised if Vettel arrived at Ferrari together with Newey

The way this story has developed in the past 24 hrs would suggest that there is, indeed, something to the Vettel to Ferrari story.

But if somehow Newey was included in the deal then it would be a masterstroke by Ferrari. In one deal they greatly boost their own team whilst at the same time gutting your main (recent) opposition. Because surely moving just Vettel alongside Alonso is a recipe for disaster especially given Ferrari’s two decade preferred model of running one car teams.

RH

Edited by rmhorton, 21 June 2012 - 05:49.

[bourbon]

While I agree with the rest of your post to a large degree, I can't believe the rubbish that is sprouted about Vettel's win in the TR (where fans keep thinking in won in a Minardi which a load of rubbish as well - a Minardi is one that Marques or Yoong or Alonso or Webber drove not a Newey designed car with Ferrari power).

- He won one race with TR (I didn't see him winning any other races)
- That race was perfect conditions for TR, Newey's chassis that year was brilliant in the wet and the Ferrari had greater horsepower than the Renault of the RB (look at them at the bottom of the speed traps)
- BOTH TRs would have outqualified BOTH RBs had Webber not pipped Bourdais late on in qualifying

Taking away nothing from Vettel did what he does best which was lead from the front and stay there but him being a great driver in the TR when the car + weather suited the track at the right time is often overlooked by fans.

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.

I don't see him with Alonso/Hamilton which IMO Alonso is the same so he would have no problems with Vettel coming over. Vettel doesn't also have Dr. Marko pulling strings for him like he had at TR and now RB. If he does go over to Ferrari and he beats Alonso then he would be considered a great to me. Out of the younger drivers, Hamilton/Vettel are the natural successors to Alonso which you can see why Ferrari have gone that direction.

What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

Edited by bourbon, 21 June 2012 - 06:44.

[aditya-now]

Reckon we're underestimating the Schumi-Rubens pairing at Ferrari.

If only Rubens hadn't signed a contract with 'that clause', then again Ferrari offered no other option.

Villeneuve-Pironi as a comparison to Alonso-Vettel because all 4 have the killer instinct.

Prost-Mansell come close (Prost being to pensive - being ready to whine when things were not going his way as 1991 proved), Schumacher-Barrichello wasn't really there, because Rubinho's killer instinct was strongly hampered by the contractual situation. Even Scheckter-Villeneuve doesn't come close as Scheckter wasn't that intense at that stage of his career.....as 1980 well proved.

Reutemann-Villeneuve was quite a pairing, but still nowhere in terms of ultimate will that Vettel, Alonso, Pironi and Villeneuve possess/possessed.

[Sakae]

Which contractual condition we are speaking off? Evil tongue such as mine could make a claim, that there was no a such contract in existence, other than a clause in both driver’s contract, that a driver who leads the championship and have best chance to win the championship, at discretion of management, will receive any and all support from the team, including his teammate for so long, until the championship title is secured. Unfortunately for Mr. Rubena, he never was in that positions to have Schumacher play domestic, and his crocodile tears are nothing but sad testimony of a defeated man.

Edited by Sakae, 21 June 2012 - 11:21.

[Coops3]

That's for Ferrari to decide. Their opinion of Alonso may be subject to change if they endure two or three more years without a championship.

To be honest I don't think Alonso's ability has ever been in question the whole time he's been at Ferrari, regardless of the lack of championships (and rightly so). I don't see any reason for that not to continue.

[v@sh]

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.



What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

If you read my post properly I was referring to that win and that win alone. Not the season as a whole as I never mentioned anything else about the season because clearly seb was talented, that was obvious to see and he earned his chance and has grasped it. I have nothing against that so you don't need to be so defensive in your seb love mate.

Bourdais said Marko was like poison in that garage, not to mention Jamie getting an earful from Marko in Korea which lead would have contributed to his sacking and you really think what they say and don't say behind closed doors is going to someone leaked out to the public? There is a whole load of politics behind closed doors whether it be RBR or any other teams just as there is in any organization. Seb has been protected by Marko since the start of the RBDYP, he is less likely to be the golden child if he heads to ferrari and Fernando handily beats him initially.

Sakae, from what I've read the conditions are loosely based where Ferrari are in the constructors championships at a point in time in the 2013 championship as to ensure for Vettel that he will has a decent car underneath him for 2014. Who knows the exact condition. On the other hand if RB do not say for example manage top 3 constructors for next season then Vettel has a get out clause and hence free to speak to Ferrari. However, if RB do hit those targets then I would imagine the option is exercised and Vettel would then have to see out 2014. Much the same IMO a similar scenario to Webber hitting a particular target for him to retain the RB seat for next season.

Edited by v@sh, 21 June 2012 - 14:29.

[CF22]

The Alonso article on the main page says: "he has a say over who his future team-mate is". I think what is meant by this is that in the meeting with Luca Di Montezemolo and Stefano Domenicali he has some input as to who would be a good choice, not a rule written in his contract though this might still be the case.

[Theturkeyprize]

If people sneer and criticise at Vettel's win at Monza we should start to sneer and criticise Senna's first win with Lotus at Portugal in the wet.

Both got pole, both had a huge gap to teammate that were both starting in 4th, both Vettel and Senna ran away with the win in the wet, major rivals were having problems with the wet and were more or less out of the way.

So what's so different between Vettel's win that people try to find every loophole to deminish it, yet nobody would dare say a bad word with Senna's first win when the situation was more or less identical...

Please go in more detail in why Senna should be worshiped for Portugal in a race winning Lotus yet Vettel's should be ignored with a points scoring Toro Rosso...

Please! Enlighten me!

[Seanspeed]

^
You poor kids...you will never get over the ********.

For real. Embarrassing.

[bourbon]

Bourdais said Marko was like poison in that garage, not to mention Jamie getting an earful from Marko in Korea which lead would have contributed to his sacking and you really think what they say and don't say behind closed doors is going to someone leaked out to the public? There is a whole load of politics behind closed doors whether it be RBR or any other teams just as there is in any organization. Seb has been protected by Marko since the start of the RBDYP, he is less likely to be the golden child if he heads to ferrari and Fernando handily beats him initially.

But you didn't answer my question. Precisely how is Marko pulling strings for Seb at Red Bull? And for what reason does Sebastian need any strings pulled? What did Seb need to be protected from?

[Tauhid]

what a photo! would love to see these two paired up rather!

[joshb]

The Alonso article on the main page says: "he has a say over who his future team-mate is". I think what is meant by this is that in the meeting with Luca Di Montezemolo and Stefano Domenicali he has some input as to who would be a good choice, not a rule written in his contract though this might still be the case.

Is Ferrari's management so weak or does Santander's money talk so loud that the TEAM can't make the decision of who drives for them?
No driver is bigger than the team, why should Alonso have the call on the other driver?

Before anyone suspects bias, I'd want RB to do the same as the other teams if Webber was to leave; they decide the driver to replace him, not Seb.

[RealRacing]

See Vetel thread. NEXT!

[bourbon]

Vettel's response:

Sebastian Vettel says he is flattered by Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali's suggestion that he and Fernando Alonso could work well together.

Comments from Domenicali saying that the two world champions could "coexist" at Ferrari were published on the team's website after they appeared in German publications Sport Bild and Auto Bild.

That added fuel to rumours about Vettel moving to Ferrari in the future, and Alonso said he would have no problem with the German joining him at the team when he was quizzed about it in the Valencia paddock on Thursday.

When asked what he thought of the talk coming from Ferrari, Vettel told reporters: "It's very nice to hear that. I respect Ferrari a lot, I respect Fernando a lot. I see it as a compliment.

"I'm flattered, obviously. I've always said that Ferrari is a great team with a great history, a great tradition, in Formula 1 in particular. But as I've said before, I'm very happy with where I am at the moment."

Vettel added that he was not unsettled by rumours about the driver market, and he believes that none of his championship rivals can afford to get distracted by talk of the future.

"Does it unsettle me? No," he said. "If you want to have a word in this year's championship, you are much better off having all the focus on this year.

"As we have seen, it is extremely tight, a lot of races, a lot of winners. So I think I need all the focus on this year.

"Generally there is always something going round in the paddock. Just before Monaco, Mark [Webber] was linked to Ferrari. You [the media] will always find something to talk about."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100539

[jeze]

I think Alonso would rather have Vettel in the same team than risking getting beaten by him when he has a Newey-designed car every year. Should Vettel go to Ferrari, either Red Bull or McLaren (if Hamilton goes to Red Bull) would be weakened. That would mean that it'd be more in Alonso's own hands to win the title - given that he knows one of the other top-liners won't have a car that can drive away from Ferrari (i.e. Vettel or Hamilton joining him).

[Seanspeed]

No driver is bigger than the team

Especially at Ferrari.

[RealRacing]

Ferrari are experts at trying to distract their closest competitors. It´s no coincidence that SD says Vettel would work well with FA, but, at the same time, says FA is the best (i.e., better than Vettel, one of his current WDC contenders).
Vettel answered with class, "I respect Ferrari because of their history and Alonso as a driver and feel complimented that they think of me", but NO THANKS.

The reasons why Vettel won´t go to Ferrari before FA´s contract runs out have been discussed in detail. The truth is Vettel would not want to be there and SD and FA don´t really want him there, the first because the team could implode and the second because he can´t stand to be beaten. Who´s the next driver going to Ferrari?

[Dunc]

I think I'm in the minority as I think Vettel should head to Ferrari to partner Alonso. People still doubt his ability despite him being a double WDC. Going to possibly the toughest team to drive for in F1 and beating the driver eveyone wants to beat would prove all his critics wrong once and for all. On the other hand, getting trounced would prove them right but that's the risk he'd have to take.

[SirRacer]

I think I'm in the minority as I think Vettel should head to Ferrari to partner Alonso. People still doubt his ability despite him being a double WDC. Going to possibly the toughest team to drive for in F1 and beating the driver eveyone wants to beat would prove all his critics wrong once and for all. On the other hand, getting trounced would prove them right but that's the risk he'd have to take.

Yes it would.

But if Alonso would beat Vettel (which is the most likely thing in my opinion), it could also prove that Vettel is not a "top dog" like Alonso or Hamilton, but the "best of the rest"

Edited by SirRacer, 21 June 2012 - 22:31.

[CF22]

I think I'm in the minority as I think Vettel should head to Ferrari to partner Alonso. People still doubt his ability despite him being a double WDC. Going to possibly the toughest team to drive for in F1 and beating the driver eveyone wants to beat would prove all his critics wrong once and for all. On the other hand, getting trounced would prove them right but that's the risk he'd have to take.

At the moment, as a Ferrari fan I think Vettel should partner Fernando and make a stronger team, something Massa is not accomplishing at the moment. Like many I am skeptic of Vettel's status as "best of the field" though I rate him as third best after Alonso and Hamilton (until I see more). He's proven to be quick, awesome in qualifying (Alonso's weakness) and has beaten his team-mates fair and square. If he does move to Ferrari at some point in his career it would definitely be an asset for the team, two top drivers scoring points is excellent for the WCC and most often than not one of those get the WDC, at this point the team is a one driver team. Two top, extremely competitive drivers sharing a garage is also an explosive situation which I'm sure Luca Di Montezemolo can handle better than Ron Dennis.

[Theturkeyprize]

I think I'm in the minority as I think Vettel should head to Ferrari to partner Alonso. People still doubt his ability despite him being a double WDC. Going to possibly the toughest team to drive for in F1 and beating the driver eveyone wants to beat would prove all his critics wrong once and for all. On the other hand, getting trounced would prove them right but that's the risk he'd have to take.

Personally I dont think Vettel really cares what the haters say, if he did beat Alonso Lewis would be the next target, after Lewis it would be Di Resta etc... So either way Vettel wont win everybody over because there will always be another goal to aim at set by the haters that make this rubbish up.

Who did Alonso actually beat that was top tier to make him number one? he got 1 year with somebody close to his ability and he cracked under the pressure. Lewis was always being run close by Jenson even before the blip in 2011, yet everybody said Lewis was going to destroy him yet it didn't happen, so is Lewis overrated or is Jenson underrated? why is he in the top tier when Jenson beat him?

Vettel might not be in the same league as Alonso and Lewis........what league that is I'll never know since Vettel is the only world champion on the grid that hasn't been beaten by his teammate yet. Webber is hardly a pushover and could be regarded better than Massa and Jenson overall if given equal cars, yet that view could be seen as biased on my side.

I doubt he really cares for that stat unlike Lewis and Alonso did so they can keep it, Vettel wants to win plain and simple and has no intrest in these petty ego fights that Lewis and Alonso like to have. They can have the media glory, we'll have all the world titles thanks! Vettel would be better of it when he retires with 5+ world titles if he sticks to what he is doing now, Oh! but Alonso and Lewis was always a tier above, so was the proof of their lesser WDC's tally between them

*Sarcasm* I'm sure Vettel and his fans are having sleepless nights, wondering if Vettel could ever hit the heights of losing to his teammate to be in the same breath to the "top 2".

[Coops3]

Personally I dont think Vettel really cares what the haters say, if he did beat Alonso Lewis would be the next target, after Lewis it would be Di Resta etc... So either way Vettel wont win everybody over because there will always be another goal to aim at set by the haters that make this rubbish up.

Who did Alonso actually beat that was top tier to make him number one? he got 1 year with somebody close to his ability and he cracked under the pressure. Lewis was always being run close by Jenson even before the blip in 2011, yet everybody said Lewis was going to destroy him yet it didn't happen, so is Lewis overrated or is Jenson underrated? why is he in the top tier when Jenson beat him?

Vettel might not be in the same league as Alonso and Lewis........what league that is I'll never know since Vettel is the only world champion on the grid that hasn't been beaten by his teammate yet. Webber is hardly a pushover and could be regarded better than Massa and Jenson overall if given equal cars, yet that view could be seen as biased on my side.

I doubt he really cares for that stat unlike Lewis and Alonso did so they can keep it, Vettel wants to win plain and simple and has no intrest in these petty ego fights that Lewis and Alonso like to have. They can have the media glory, we'll have all the world titles thanks! Vettel would be better of it when he retires with 5+ world titles if he sticks to what he is doing now, Oh! but Alonso and Lewis was always a tier above, so was the proof of their lesser WDC's tally between them

*Sarcasm* I'm sure Vettel and his fans are having sleepless nights, wondering if Vettel could ever hit the heights of losing to his teammate to be in the same breath to the "top 2".

I don't think you can simply dismiss people who doubt Vettel's ability compared to Alonso as "haters".

[gillesthegenius]

Yes it would.

But if Alonso would beat Vettel (which is the most likely thing in my opinion), it could also prove that Vettel is not a "top dog" like Alonso or Hamilton, but the "best of the rest"

By the same token, if Vettel would, god willing, beat Alonso, would it prove that Alonso (and Hamilton) are not 'top dogs' and are only the 'best of the rest'?

[bourbon]

Personally I dont think Vettel really cares what the haters say, if he did beat Alonso Lewis would be the next target, after Lewis it would be Di Resta etc... So either way Vettel wont win everybody over because there will always be another goal to aim at set by the haters that make this rubbish up.

Who did Alonso actually beat that was top tier to make him number one? he got 1 year with somebody close to his ability and he cracked under the pressure. Lewis was always being run close by Jenson even before the blip in 2011, yet everybody said Lewis was going to destroy him yet it didn't happen, so is Lewis overrated or is Jenson underrated? why is he in the top tier when Jenson beat him?

Vettel might not be in the same league as Alonso and Lewis........what league that is I'll never know since Vettel is the only world champion on the grid that hasn't been beaten by his teammate yet. Webber is hardly a pushover and could be regarded better than Massa and Jenson overall if given equal cars, yet that view could be seen as biased on my side.

I doubt he really cares for that stat unlike Lewis and Alonso did so they can keep it, Vettel wants to win plain and simple and has no intrest in these petty ego fights that Lewis and Alonso like to have. They can have the media glory, we'll have all the world titles thanks! Vettel would be better of it when he retires with 5+ world titles if he sticks to what he is doing now, Oh! but Alonso and Lewis was always a tier above, so was the proof of their lesser WDC's tally between them

*Sarcasm* I'm sure Vettel and his fans are having sleepless nights, wondering if Vettel could ever hit the heights of losing to his teammate to be in the same breath to the "top 2".

This is true. All of it. You can never satisfy everyone, so no point in trying. The point is to win and no matter what they label you or how they compare you, or how they rate you, they can't take away those titles...

[V8 Fireworks]

The truth is Vettel would not want to be there and SD and FA don´t really want him there, the first because the team could implode and the second because he can´t stand to be beaten.

What nonsense. They sign the best available drivers that they can afford. For Ferrari this is Vettel, on the caution note that Perez might become better than Vettel and would be cheaper to initially sign.

Prost had very specific reasons for the Senna clause. None of the current drivers can demand such clauses.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 June 2012 - 04:41.

[SirRacer]

By the same token, if Vettel would, god willing, beat Alonso, would it prove that Alonso (and Hamilton) are not 'top dogs' and are only the 'best of the rest'?

Of course it would!

But that's very unlikely IMHO, he is struggling to beat Webber, so did he in 2010.

[velgajski1]

Of course it would!

But that's very unlikely IMHO, he is struggling to beat Webber, so did he in 2010.

In 2010. Vettel had 50+ points lost due to reliability, how much did Webber have? If you look 2010., I mean, if you actually watch races you'd see Vettel was much better than Webber in 2010. And beat him quite thouroghly in 2009 and 2011. And in 2012. is better than Webber so far. Seriously, what does this guy have to do to get acknowledged?

OTOH, you could apply following simplistic logic like you did... Hamilton beat Alonso in same team, and yet Button beat him in that same team, and we all know that Button is not as good as Vettel, which means Alonso is not as good as Vettel.

Disclaimer: This is not my opinion, it is just applying simplistic logic like SirRacer did in his ditch-Vettel post.

My logic is following. Vettel is current 2xWDC driver, he packed Bourdais out of F1 in his first full F1 season, and is beating Webber (who is midfield driver at worst, and probably more closer to a top driver) for seasons now. There is nothing to suggest that he would not be at least on same level as Alonso.

Edited by velgajski1, 22 June 2012 - 07:55.

[RealRacing]

At the end of the day, these discussions turn into "who's the best driver" nonsense. As there is no objective way of proving this, it becomes, basically, a fan fight and, therefore, pointless. What we CAN argue more or less intelligently about is that no top driver like Vettel, even less a 2 X WDC, is willing to sign a contract where he is a No. 2., when he's at a better team and no team wants to risk having a bitter fight between their drivers, especially given FA's history in this regard. So no, no driver of caliber is going to drive for Ferrari until Alonso leaves after 2016.

[Theturkeyprize]

So people cant doubt Alonso's ability when he was being beaten by Jarno Trulli, Lewis Hamilton and Tarso Marques through his career? That's what defines the "best on the grid?"

Lewis gets beaten by Jenson and suddenly it's an easy excuse to say "He had an off year." and it doesn't count? Hang on a second! if that was Vettel he would be chucked down to the pits of mediocre, yet somehow the other two can get away with it.......eh?

Sorry but thats just picking at straws as I could say the same thing in 2010 for Vettel, he had a "very bad year" and he still beat Webber on his best performance to date and he still took the world title. Yet people try to point out that's where his ability is limited at (barely coping with webber). So they ignore Alonso 01,04,07 and Lewis 11. Is that their limit as well? being beaten by lesser teammates?

Wish I had that option being called the best all the time if I worked like that, living would be so much easier then because it wouldn't matter if I lost!

I remember reading this forum last year and it's true what the Vettel fans say, you lot move the goalposts every time and think of some new objective that Alonso and Lewis themselves never actually did themselves.

[flyer121]

Of course it would!

But that's very unlikely IMHO, he is struggling to beat Webber, so did he in 2010.

What makes you think Webber couldnt beat Nando as well ....

Edited by flyer121, 22 June 2012 - 16:07.

[Cavani]

my predcition for 2014 which is a big year for the sport : redbull will leave the sport and another buyer will jump in and the team will fade away . vettel knew that already and has a contrat already with ferrari. this team then (previously redbull) will have webber + safe driver (read : hulkenberg , kovalinen , sutil)

[Kingshark]

Like not being able to pass 2s lap slower cars when WDC was at stake.

1 - Petrov was only 6 - 8 tenths slower than the leaders. Otherwise it wouldn't explain to why he was only 43 seconds behind Vettel at the end, in a 55 lap race, would it?

2 - How many passes did you see at Abu Dhabi? Did Hamilton manage to pass Kubica? Uh, no.

3 - That Renault was some 3-5 kph quicker on the straight that the Ferrari.

Edited by Kingshark, 22 June 2012 - 17:02.

[Flamini]

So people cant doubt Alonso's ability when he was being beaten by Jarno Trulli, Lewis Hamilton and Tarso Marques through his career? "

Alonso was soundly beaten especially by Marques:

(0. They both had 0 points)
1. Alonso lapped Marques in every race they finished together.
2. Alonso won qualy battle 12-2 (lost second qualy by DNF - something illegal in his car).
3. Alonso won opening qualy by 2.6 seconds and won a lot by more than one second.
4. Marques was ahead in the standings because he finished high in a race where Alonso couldn't finish.

[gillesthegenius]

What makes you think Webber couldnt beat Nando as well ....

+1

[gillesthegenius]

Alonso was soundly beaten especially by Marques:

(0. They both had 0 points)
1. Alonso lapped Marques in every race they finished together.
2. Alonso won qualy battle 12-2 (lost second qualy by DNF - something illegal in his car).
3. Alonso won opening qualy by 2.6 seconds and won a lot by more than one second.
4. Marques was ahead in the standings because he finished high in a race where Alonso couldn't finish.

But he still lost to Marquez.;)

[SirRacer]

+1

Webber was nowhere near being a top driver before having a dominant car in 2010, 2011, and he has been in F1 long enough.

[Seanspeed]

At the end of the day, these discussions turn into "who's the best driver" nonsense. As there is no objective way of proving this, it becomes, basically, a fan fight and, therefore, pointless. What we CAN argue more or less intelligently about is that no top driver like Vettel, even less a 2 X WDC, is willing to sign a contract where he is a No. 2., when he's at a better team and no team wants to risk having a bitter fight between their drivers, especially given FA's history in this regard. So no, no driver of caliber is going to drive for Ferrari until Alonso leaves after 2016.

Nobody will be forced to sign a contract saying they are no.2 at Ferrari.

Please stop saying this nonsense.