53 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

I know the basic story of the XK 100. When Jaguar first showed the XK120 they also announced there would be a 2-litre 4-cylinder 100 mph version called the XK100. But demand for the XK120 was so high that Jaguar dropped the idea. Now for the intriguing part. In Powered by Jaguar Doug Nye writes:

Pressed Steel of Oxford were buttonholed to tool-up for volume production and ideas to produce a down-market XK100 model with the 2-litre four-cylinder engine were set aside, after a pilot batch of 50 such engines had been produced.

Does anybody know what happened to these engines? At 2 litres they would have been candidates to power a Formula 2 car but it never happened. I can't see Jaguar scrapping them if they could sell them somewhere. Did they end up in boats, or in some military application, or given Walter Hassan's later involvement with Coventry Climax in a fire pump??

[PJGD]

I remember seeing one of the 4-cylinder engines on display at Coombes of Guildford back in the mid 60's. I think that they had had it for a while.

PJGD

[ed holly]

There is one at the Jaguar Heritage Museum at Browns Lane Coventry ... website is ...

http://www.jaguarher...org/Museum.aspx

I took a photo of it and will pass on to anyone that can upload it here ... looks just like a short version of the 6 cylinder XK engine, funny that !!

my email is edholly@optusnet.com.au

Ed

[Terry Walker]

There was this one in the Fremantle Motor Museum, photographed in March 2007. The Museum has since closed and much sold off.

[Ralf Pickel]

What´s that Jag engine next to it ?
Dry sump / twinned SU´s ?

Ralf

[Terry Walker]

As modified for powerboat racing many years ago. Don't know where it is now. I was fascinated by those dual choke SUs when I took the pic.

[Ralf Pickel]

Ah - thank you.
I thought those SU´s were only used in GP cars .

[Allan Lupton]

Goldie Gardner took 2 litre class speed records with an XK100 engine in his MG record car of course, but otherwise weight would have been against racing use of that engine in (say) a Formula 2 car. Don't know how much more it weighed than an Alta engine, but Coventry cast iron was never quite as light as some of the better Detroit cast iron. Same goes for fire pump use.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 04 March 2011 - 09:19.

[RobertE]

Ken Gregory and Stirling Moss attempted to acquire one of these engines for their Cooper-derived 2 litre car in, I think, 1953. They were rebuffed, as Jaguar were not particularly impressed with their own concept. They ended up installing an Alta engine. It was a lemon.

[Nev]

Ah - thank you.
I thought those SU´s were only used in GP cars .

They were also used on some Coventry Climax 2.5 litre F1 engines as well as their 2 litre and 1.5 litre sports car and F2 engines.

I reckon the triple twin-choke SUs on the 6-cyl engine pictured would look impressive under the bonnet of an E-Type if they could be made to fit

[Nev]

There is one at the Jaguar Heritage Museum at Browns Lane Coventry ...

I understand their engine was rebuilt quite recently by Rob Beere. They had to make a new cam for it and chopped the middle out of a 6-cyl cam before welding the ends together - pretty nifty engineering in my book!

[Miles Fenton]

I understand their engine was rebuilt quite recently by Rob Beere. They had to make a new cam for it and chopped the middle out of a 6-cyl cam before welding the ends together - pretty nifty engineering in my book!

The Cunningham Museum in California used to have one on display.
I understand this may have become part of the Collier collection.

[D-Type]

Surely the initial batch of 50 engines can't all have ended up in museums. So, the question is: "What happened to them?"

Edited by D-Type, 05 March 2011 - 20:27.

[Allan Lupton]

I agree with Duncan that if there really were 50 engines they must be somewhere. It is possible that although the parts were made, assembly stopped after relatively few had been built - and I remember a few decades later the owners of Jaguar/Daimler were pretty ruthless at throwing things out. For example the Daimler SP250 register's man had to rather swiftly get himself to Gaydon (not then a museum) and intercept the skip before the scrap man exercised his craft. Oldham & Crowther's skip of XK parts included a good number of SP250 items which they sold on for what they'd fetch - some of which I bought at quite soothing prices.

Post edited to remove embarrassing mistake.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 06 March 2011 - 08:26.

[Milan Fistonic]

Late last year I did some research for Eoin Young on the XK100. At the time there was an engine being auctioned in France IIRC.

He was writing an article on the model and mentioned that he had bought not one but TWO of these 4-cyl twin-cam motors years ago from John Coombs!

[Nev]

Here is the picture of Jaguar Heritage's 4-cylinder XK engine - posted on behalf of Ed Holly.

[Sharman]

Niggling thought at the back of my mind, didn't the TRS have twin choke SUs?

[Mal9444]

I recall in the Sixties a racing powerboat called Jackie S powered by four Jaguar engines, I think 2-litre engines. It was owned by one Dr Emil Savundra, a businessman with a colourful career that came to an abrupt end when he was jailed for insurance fraud. It was a considerable beast, barely controllable: to such an extent than on one race it oversteered (oh yes - boats can do it too) so dramatically while rounding the Needles that it ended up going up the steps and ramming the door.

I'll have a trawl through my bound copies of Yachts and Yachting from that era and revert if anything comes up.

[Allan Lupton]

Niggling thought at the back of my mind, didn't the TRS have twin choke SUs?

Yes, it did.

[Nev]

Walter Hassan installed a special 146 hp tuned version of Jaguar's 4-cyl XK engine in ''Goldie'' Gardner's streamliner, MG EX 135. It apparently went 176 mph down the Jabbeke highway.

There's a picture of the engine on the National Motor Museum's website showing its twin (single-choke) SUs and presumably LOUD exhaust - 1948 MG EX 135

This seems to be its only real motoring application but it would be interesting to know if it was developed further in the boating world?

[Nev]

Yes, it did.

Nice

According to Peter Wilson (ex Jaguar), who worked for SU in the mid 70's, "there were a load of the things(twin-choke SUs) in our engineering stores which were thrown away for scrap just before I left there in '76."

Do you know if Webers are superior to twin-choke SUs or was it a cost thing?

[Tim Murray]

I recall in the Sixties a racing powerboat called Jackie S powered by four Jaguar engines, I think 2-litre engines. It was owned by one Dr Emil Savundra, a businessman with a colourful career that came to an abrupt end when he was jailed for insurance fraud. It was a considerable beast, barely controllable: to such an extent than on one race it oversteered (oh yes - boats can do it too) so dramatically while rounding the Needles that it ended up going up the steps and ramming the door.

I'll have a trawl through my bound copies of Yachts and Yachting from that era and revert if anything comes up.

If it helps you in your quest, Malcolm, according to this site the year Savundra used the Jaguar engines was 1963. There are photos, but I'm not sure which, if any, is the Jag-engined boat. Jackie S was named after Savundra's daughter.

Dr Emil Savundra...Boss of the Fire and Marine insurance company entered the Cowes Torquay in 1962 with Jackie S powered by three Chrysler inboards. This Cyril Hughes design was unusual in that there was no superstructure, the following year though he returned with a cabin and wheelhouse and the hull stuffed full with 4 Jaguar engines totalling 1000hp. Jackie had stability problems and the good Doctor’s boat first climbed on to the deck of Don Shead’s TRIDENT, then proceeded to hit a small converted ships lifeboat called the Skipjack amidships, Skipjack sank under the weight and all aboard scrambled onto Jackie. Once safely transferred Jackie set off again but luck was not on the Doctor’s side as this time the Needles lighthouse was the target of her amorous advances, luckily hitting the base at a mere 10mph and causing little damage to either party and retired.

Edit: Photo here: http://www.offshoreo...00-post567.html

Edited by Tim Murray, 06 March 2011 - 10:36.

[D-Type]

Walter Hassan installed a special 146 hp tuned version of Jaguar's 4-cyl XK engine in ''Goldie'' Gardner's streamliner, MG EX 135. It apparently went 176 mph down the Jabbeke highway.

There's a picture of the engine on the National Motor Museum's website showing its twin (single-choke) SUs and presumably LOUD exhaust - 1948 MG EX 135

This seems to be its only real motoring application but it would be interesting to know if it was developed further in the boating world?

This was a prototype engine, the XJ, rather than the production XK100 engine I think.

Incidentally it was finding this page on the web that prompted me to start this thread. It sounds like the same 50 engines but ...

[Allan Lupton]

Incidentally it was finding this page on the web that prompted me to start this thread. It sounds like the same 50 engines but ...

That page has some pretty strange speculation and discussion which, since it's on t'internet, someone, somewhere will quote part of to support some axe they are grinding.
e.g. Jaguar origins for the MGA twincam negine, HRG origins for the MGA-twincam 'head, Standard origins for the XK100/120. . .

Mind you we can be as bad here sometimes.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 06 March 2011 - 13:02.

[D-Type]

I thought the same, which is why I didn't post the link initially. But, in fairness some of the more outlandish claims were rebutted by others.

On the "No smoke without fire" principle I felt there must be something behind the rumour and started this thread.

Edited by D-Type, 06 March 2011 - 19:48.

[Sharman]

No Duncan, by putting it up here you lent credence to the rumours. They need firmly squashing

[Nev]

I thought the same, which is why I didn't post the link initially. But, in fairness some of the more outlandish claims were rebutted by others.

On the "No smoke without fire" principle I felt there must be something behind the rumour and started this thread.

It seems certainly the case that there are at least a few of these engines about - whether there were 50 originally is perhaps open to conjecture. Seems a lot to me.

It seems a 4-cyl block and head turned up on eBay last year. Would have made interesting paperweights if nothing else ....

[Nev]

If it helps you in your quest, Malcolm, according to this site the year Savundra used the Jaguar engines was 1963. There are photos, but I'm not sure which, if any, is the Jag-engined boat. Jackie S was named after Savundra's daughter.

Edit: Photo here: http://www.offshoreo...00-post567.html

I have it on good authority that Jackie S was powered by four SIX cylinder 3.8 litre Jaguar engines. I have spoken with the man who developed the carburation for the boat and he confirmed they used triple SUs on each engine. There was another boat around at the time, also powered by 3.8 litre 6-cyl Jaguar engines but fitted with triple webers.

[RCH]

The first (I think) Cowes-Torquay offshore powerboat race, about 1960/1, was won by Tramontana which had four 6-cylinder XK engines.

[Allan Lupton]

Going back to the original question that was the point of this thread, I have asked a man who should know. I'll see what he says and keep you posted.

[Nev]

The first (I think) Cowes-Torquay offshore powerboat race, about 1960/1, was won by Tramontana which had four 6-cylinder XK engines.

Yes - this is the boat that ran with webers AFAIK. I am pretty confident the 4-cyl engines were never fitted to these boats which helps answer the original question of "Does anybody know what happened to these engines?".

[Grantree]

I think a couple of heads ended up on a brace of mini engines - have a picture somewhere, though unsure whether they were a cut 6 cyl head - maybe something to do with Gordon Allen?

Edited by Grantree, 11 March 2011 - 12:10.

[Allan Lupton]

I asked a man who is in a position to know and got this:
The claim that 50 such engines were made comes from Paul Skilleter's book Jaguar Sports Cars published in 1975. I can not verify it.
I think it is hilarious that someone has now set a hare running on the jag-lovers.org web site which is generally pretty unreliable and ill-informed. Any speculation trying to link the Jaguar XK four-cylinder engine used in the Gardner record car in 1948 with BMC's MGA Twin-Cam engine ten years later simply demonstrates that Jaguar people know nothing about MG.
I checked Paul's book and he does not say much and what he does say is not that positive:
This underestimation of the XK120's success in the world market was actually quite costly, in one sense, for about 50 units of the smaller engine had already been built prior to the announcement date - they hung round for years . . . before being broken up for scrap . . .

[threespires]

Niggling thought at the back of my mind, didn't the TRS have twin choke SUs?

Correct.
This is a replica using an Alfa engine which was similar in looks to the Triumph 'Sabrina' engine.
I believe the Twin Choke SU' were used on some Climax racing engines.
I don't recall any road cars usng them.


Triumph TR Day - 11 - TR3S Le Mans by Rally Pix, on Flickr

[Allan Lupton]

See post no. 19 for the real one!

[Nev]

I think it is hilarious that someone has now set a hare running on the jag-lovers.org web site which is generally pretty unreliable and ill-informed. Any speculation trying to link the Jaguar XK four-cylinder engine used in the Gardner record car in 1948 with BMC's MGA Twin-Cam engine ten years later simply demonstrates that Jaguar people know nothing about MG.

I had a look back on the Jag-Lovers threads and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING suggesting a link between the XK and MG engines. No hares over there .... Seems your man himself may be "unreliable and ill-informed"?

Allan - mind telling us who is the man "in a position to know"?

[David McKinney]

I'm sure if he was willing (or able) to tell us before, he would have ;)

[Nev]

Correct.
This is a replica using an Alfa engine which was similar in looks to the Triumph 'Sabrina' engine.
I believe the Twin Choke SU' were used on some Climax racing engines.
I don't recall any road cars usng them.

Is it only me who wonders why the engine builder deemed the metal bra to be necessary?

[Allan Lupton]

I had a look back on the Jag-Lovers threads and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING suggesting a link between the XK and MG engines. No hares over there .... Seems your man himself may be "unreliable and ill-informed"?

Allan - mind telling us who is the man "in a position to know"?

Sorry if I upset a Jag-lover's sensibilities, Nev but the thread that D Type linked had some balderdash about that mythical link, so that was what was being referred to.
I believe a supply of MGA Twincam engines has just been found! I owned a basket case 1958 Twincam MGA many years ago. You are correct the 4 cylinder version was dropped and my research discovered Jaguar sold(?) the engine to Morris Garage. It was used with MG embossed cam covers for the production Twincam MGA's. I believe it would not be suitable for a Mark. - L J Haithcock, S830794DN, XK-150S OTS

Almost as ridiculous was the bit that followed it:
My recollection of stuff I read 20 years ago is that MG bought the twin cam head design from HRG who were more or less defunct. I would be surprised if it had any parts in common with the XK100, which was probably based on a Standard engine layout. - regards, Mike Morrin

I will just say that my informant works at JDHT and that's why I asked him and why I feel he is in a position to know.

[Nev]

Sorry if I upset a Jag-lover's sensibilities, Nev but the thread that D Type linked had some balderdash about that mythical link, so that was what was being referred to.

I will just say that my informant works at JDHT and that's why I asked him and why I feel he is in a position to know.

Hi Allan - I have retracted my spring and climbed back in my box now

Yes - I agree with you that any claims of links between the two engines is b

Spoiler

ollock

s. I asked about the identity of your informant because I was flattered a few days ago to receive an email from a certain senior member of the JDHT asking me what I knew about the 4-cyl engines. I presumed it was prompted by a question from someone on this forum. It is possible we are both talking about the same person ....

Edited by Nev, 12 March 2011 - 07:33.

[bradbury west]

... from HRG who were more or less defunct.

OT a bit, HRG showed and offered an OHC head conversion for the 105E Ford engine at the 1961 Racing Car Show, I recall, of which I have heard nothing since, which is surprising in view of the Harry Munday TC head for Lotus in 1962, I suppose.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 12 March 2011 - 14:04.

[RTH]

Now that is interesting Roger. I wonder if someone can come up with pictures, advertisng leaflet spec sheet etc, was it I wonder along the lines of the Cosworth SCA ?

[bradbury west]

Page 17 Autosport Jan 6 . 1961 has a small photo top left with no other narrative in the report. I will see if I can get a decent scan. The caption suggests it is a "startling overhead camshaft conversion for the 105E Ford by H.R.G.
RL

Edited by bradbury west, 12 March 2011 - 17:50.

[bradbury west]

see above

Photo source not known
Roger Lund

[elansprint72]

A most interesting thread... and I'm squeaking as a Lotus person. Go to it, guys...

[bradbury west]

Page 17 Autosport Jan 6 . 1961 has a small photo top left with no other narrative in the report. I will see if I can get a decent scan. The caption suggests it is a "startling overhead camshaft conversion for the 105E Ford by H.R.G. RL

It seems it might have existed in the metal
http://cgi.ebay.co.u...-...75839&ps=50
Does anyone have access the Motor magazine?
Roger Lund

[JockinSA]

I think a couple of heads ended up on a brace of mini engines - have a picture somewhere, though unsure whether they were a cut 6 cyl head - maybe something to do with Gordon Allen?

Having seen one of the Gordon Allen Twini engines, the head was definitely cut and welded together as the weld can seen. An amazing piece of engineering! The block was made by him to engage the mini gearbox and when looking at it, it all looks "right".

[Nev]

OT a bit
Roger Lund

OT a lot ... but interesting nonetheless ;)

Harry Munday TC head for Lotus in 1962, I suppose.
Roger Lund

I would like to learn a little more about the Lotus/Mundy connection - could anyone point me towards any useful links/info please?

[Terry Walker]

This isn't a bad starting point.

http://en.wikipedia....s-Ford_Twin_Cam

[terry mcgrath]

There was this one in the Fremantle Motor Museum, photographed in March 2007. The Museum has since closed and much sold off.

The 6 cyl XK motor is from an XK120 jaguar and the history of the car is covered in our new XK book see details below.
There have been quite a number of 6 cyl XK motors marinised for use in boats, speedboats and hydro planes and there is sufficient info to write a small book on the subject.
The efforts and conversions that were carried out are truly amazing even down to fitting a jaguar head to a ford or holden block!!!
I am always interested in getting reports details and photos of jaguar motos in boats of any sort
terry


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