46 replies to this topic

[sainsburypeter]

In this weeks Autosport mag, Mark Hughes analyses Pirelli's performance from the recent tests and suggests that drivers who can handle a car that oversteers will do relatively well. I would have thought Hamilton fits into this category but who are the others?

[JackTorrance]

Mark Hughes is a plonker. Drivers that keep their tyres in one piece will cope the best. Drivers that ask too much from their rear tyres will need more pitstops.

[PretentiousBread]

The obvious candidates which would particularly excel are Hamilton, Vettel and Schumacher mainly. But I believe all the best drivers will cope with this, with the exception of Button.

That article was extremely interesting though. He made a similar article last year that was bang on the money about what was happening with the tyres at Canada. He put the huge tyre wear down to the track surface and not the tyres. Because of the problems they've had in the past with the track surface breaking up at Montreal, as of 2010 they used a different type of surface which is barely porous to stop moisture getting into the track, freezing over the winter and then breaking up the surface when it thaws. This makes the surface extremely smooth and harder to bed rubber into the track. Remember how for the first 30 or so laps last year everyone's tyres fell to pieces, using up 2 -3 sets of tyres but then for the rest of the race everyone was able to get to the end on one set of tyres? Mark Hughes' suggestion is that the same thing will basically happen at every track this year because the tyres are stiffer and breaking up into marbles and sheaths of rubber rather than chemically bonding with the track as the softer Bridgestones were last year.

In any case, I think he's right in saying that there will be very little the drivers can do to ease tyre wear, and that it will be more down to how their car treats the rubber. However Pirelli are trying to trial new tyres on FP1 each race weekend so their tyre development could change all of this.

[gricey1981]

Mark Hughes is a plonker. Drivers that keep their tyres in one piece will cope the best. Drivers that ask too much from their rear tyres will need more pitstops.

Yeah , its a wonder why Autosport do not employ you with your insightful facts and knowledge.

[Ferrari2183]

Now where are all the clowns who were moaning about Pirelli changing it's design objectives to suit Ferrari and in particular Alonso?

I thought I'd find them in here with something to say.

[FPV GTHO]

Pirelli at least have the scope to change their tyres through the year where they dont have to be such a stiff construction to be safe.

[undersquare]

Now where are all the clowns who were moaning about Pirelli changing it's design objectives to suit Ferrari and in particular Alonso?

I thought I'd find them in here with something to say.

Well did they take some grip out of the fronts or not? Just because there's still oversteer at the end of a stint...

[PretentiousBread]

Yeah , its a wonder why Autosport do not employ you with your insightful facts and knowledge.

[Ferrari2183]

Well did they take some grip out of the fronts or not? Just because there's still oversteer at the end of a stint...

The only thing I've heard is that they've adjusted the soft compounds, presumably front and rear. So I would imagine they have kept the grip ratio between front and rear constant.

I doubt tyres that promote oversteer will hamper a driver like Alonso much in any event.

[frp]

Yeah , its a wonder why Autosport do not employ you with your insightful facts and knowledge.

They're too shy to ask.

[Doughnut King]

Mark Hughes is a plonker. Drivers that keep their tyres in one piece will cope the best. Drivers that ask too much from their rear tyres will need more pitstops.

I've heard that the tyres are falling apart on the straights to a degree unheard of before.

How is a driver meant to preserve his tyres to a drivable degree if huge marbles are coming off on the straights?

[CSquared]

Mark Hughes' suggestion is that the same thing will basically happen at every track this year because the tyres are stiffer and breaking up into marbles and sheaths of rubber rather than chemically bonding with the track as the softer Bridgestones were last year.

If he's right and we're looking at a lot more marbles, that sounds like it's not going to help these various initiatives to improve overtaking, at least the exciting ones we like to see like going around the outside. It might actually provide more opportunities to take advantage of a driver going offline by mistake and messing up a corner, but I think that's the wrong way to go.

[JackTorrance]

Yeah , its a wonder why Autosport do not employ you with your insightful facts and knowledge.

Because when there is no news to share, Im not prepared to invent the nonsense he states about the tyres.

[Seanspeed]

If he's right and we're looking at a lot more marbles, that sounds like it's not going to help these various initiatives to improve overtaking, at least the exciting ones we like to see like going around the outside.

A driver defends to the inside, gets on the marbles - driver on the outside has big advantage.

Works both ways.

Edited by Seanspeed, 04 March 2011 - 22:51.

[PretentiousBread]

If he's right and we're looking at a lot more marbles, that sounds like it's not going to help these various initiatives to improve overtaking, at least the exciting ones we like to see like going around the outside. It might actually provide more opportunities to take advantage of a driver going offline by mistake and messing up a corner, but I think that's the wrong way to go.

That was actually his other main point in the article, that the build up of marbles off the racing line could render overtaking a car on track very tricky indeed, because even if you do pull off a manoeuvre up the inside, your tyres will be so covered in debris that you lose all grip in the ensuing corner. He argues that most overtaking will take place in the pit-stop windows, the opposite of what they're trying to achieve with the ARW.

A driver defends to the inside, gets on the marbles - driver on the outside has big advantage.;)

Works both ways.

Meh, then the intelligent driver will show the attacker the inside line much as you would do the same when there's only one dry line on track.

[undersquare]

The only thing I've heard is that they've adjusted the soft compounds, presumably front and rear. So I would imagine they have kept the grip ratio between front and rear constant.

I doubt tyres that promote oversteer will hamper a driver like Alonso much in any event.

ISTR Michael commenting that the tyres had changed in a way that didn't suit him. He was keen on them in November and then negative in early February.

[undersquare]

A driver defends to the inside, gets on the marbles - driver on the outside has big advantage.;)

Works both ways.

Marbles make offline unusable, nobody goes down the inside when it's full of marbles, they have to brake earlier than the car they're attacking and their tyres get pickup. The car in front doesn't need to defend at all.

But hopefully the marbles will drop to normal levels with warmer tracks, that's what Pirelli have said.

Edited by undersquare, 04 March 2011 - 23:45.

[pingu666]

the drivers can play with diff and engine mappings still, so theres some adjustment, bet they will want the adjustable front wing back though

[Seanspeed]

Meh, then the intelligent driver will show the attacker the inside line much as you would do the same when there's only one dry line on track.

If somebody had a good enough run on you, you'd still be very vulnerable to getting passed on the inside. Its not like the marbles will make it absolutely impossible to pass somebody on them, just a bit more tricky. Plus, if they're unstable and on the inside of you, they're possibly gonna be an annoying obstacle to getting through the corner in the ideal way.

You cant just go about hoping that the attacking driver will mess up their overtaking attempt all the time. You're bound to look like a fool on quite a few occasions if thats your strategy.

[P123]

I wonder if Hughes' observation comes from Barcelona, where Pirelli claimed the tyres there were never actually able to reach their optimal operating temperature due to the low track temperatures.

[P123]

In this weeks Autosport mag, Mark Hughes analyses Pirelli's performance from the recent tests and suggests that drivers who can handle a car that oversteers will do relatively well. I would have thought Hamilton fits into this category but who are the others?

The drivers who will cope best will be those who are in the cars which look after the tyres the best. At present Button would have little problem in a Ferrari (or Red Bull), but a much greater problem in the McLaren (or a BAR/Honda/Brawn/Merc).

[PretentiousBread]

Because when there is no news to share, Im not prepared to invent the nonsense he states about the tyres.

What 'nonsense' has he invented about the tyres? I distinctly remember an article he made last year after everyone was raving about Bridgestone's tyre allocation for the Canadian GP - at the time everyone was excited because Bridgestone had said they would use the same soft compounds at Valencia which were to induce a similar outcome - yet Hughes went against the grain and argued that it was only Montreal's track surface that created the huge tyre degradation, not the tyres. He was proven right given the snorefest that Valencia turned out to be. His reasoning about tyres is all completely logical and is backed up by the facts as well. I really don't see why he gets such a hard time from all the arm-chair experts on this forum.

[Supersleeper]

A driver defends to the inside, gets on the marbles - driver on the outside has big advantage.;)

Great point.

Drivers who stay on the line when being overtaken are certainly going to be be looking inside ...just to see if that car doesn't keep going straight ahead....

[VicR]

Mark Hughes is a plonker. Drivers that keep their tyres in one piece will cope the best. Drivers that ask too much from their rear tyres will need more pitstops.

That's why Alonso has been moaning and bitching about the tyres for months since that Abu Dhabi test.

[slideways]

I hereby second the plonkerness of Mark Hughes.

[DILLIGAF]

I wonder if Hughes' observation comes from Barcelona, where Pirelli claimed the tyres there were never actually able to reach their optimal operating temperature due to the low track temperatures.

Yep. All this speculation is based on the tyres being run on tracks where the temp has been very low.

Melbourne will give us all a much better idea of how good or bad the Pirellis are. The average temperature in Melbourne mid-March is 20-25C, very different from Barcelona where temps were often below 10C.

[undersquare]

Great point.

Drivers who stay on the line when being overtaken are certainly going to be be looking inside ...just to see if that car doesn't keep going straight ahead....

Nope, if there are a lot of marbles drivers who stay on the clean line are going to know the car behind is going to stay right behind them. Nobody's going to go offline for the pleasure of braking earlier and having pickup ruin their next lap.

Having overtaking under braking is going to depend on the tyres shedding less on the warmer surfaces in the race season. Hopefully that will be the case.

Mark Hughes is probably right though, all the drivers are going to have to drive a tail-happy car this year, whatever setup they start with.

[JackTorrance]

I really don't see why he gets such a hard time from all the arm-chair experts on this forum.

Even Pirelli has said we should wait (with predictions) till we get to run the tyres in hotter conditions.

[Ali_G]

What 'nonsense' has he invented about the tyres? I distinctly remember an article he made last year after everyone was raving about Bridgestone's tyre allocation for the Canadian GP - at the time everyone was excited because Bridgestone had said they would use the same soft compounds at Valencia which were to induce a similar outcome - yet Hughes went against the grain and argued that it was only Montreal's track surface that created the huge tyre degradation, not the tyres. He was proven right given the snorefest that Valencia turned out to be. His reasoning about tyres is all completely logical and is backed up by the facts as well. I really don't see why he gets such a hard time from all the arm-chair experts on this forum.

What on earth ?

We were fed this story for the entire weekend of the Canadian GP. It didn't take Hughes to come up with the suggestion after the GP had ended.

[krapmeister]

Yep. All this speculation is based on the tyres being run on tracks where the temp has been very low.

Melbourne will give us all a much better idea of how good or bad the Pirellis are. The average temperature in Melbourne mid-March is 20-25C, very different from Barcelona where temps were often below 10C.

Yeah but we had 17/18 dgrees here in Melbourne on friday, and the GP is still 3 weeks away - so temps could still be fairly low... and wet.

Having said that, today it is high twenties so we could easily see 30+ degrees for the GP - Melbourne weather tends to be a bit unpredictable...

[Talryyn]

The obvious candidates which would particularly excel are Hamilton, Vettel and Schumacher mainly. But I believe all the best drivers will cope with this, with the exception of Button.

That article was extremely interesting though. He made a similar article last year that was bang on the money about what was happening with the tyres at Canada. He put the huge tyre wear down to the track surface and not the tyres. Because of the problems they've had in the past with the track surface breaking up at Montreal, as of 2010 they used a different type of surface which is barely porous to stop moisture getting into the track, freezing over the winter and then breaking up the surface when it thaws. This makes the surface extremely smooth and harder to bed rubber into the track. Remember how for the first 30 or so laps last year everyone's tyres fell to pieces, using up 2 -3 sets of tyres but then for the rest of the race everyone was able to get to the end on one set of tyres? Mark Hughes' suggestion is that the same thing will basically happen at every track this year because the tyres are stiffer and breaking up into marbles and sheaths of rubber rather than chemically bonding with the track as the softer Bridgestones were last year.

In any case, I think he's right in saying that there will be very little the drivers can do to ease tyre wear, and that it will be more down to how their car treats the rubber. However Pirelli are trying to trial new tyres on FP1 each race weekend so their tyre development could change all of this.

FA used to not like this, remember the days of him using understeer into the corners to work to his advantage. Massa might get along with it well though, from having to get used to the MS style Ferrari of the day.

[Supersleeper]

Nope, if there are a lot of marbles drivers who stay on the clean line are going to know the car behind is going to stay right behind them. Nobody's going to go offline for the pleasure of braking earlier and having pickup ruin their next lap.

That's true - so overtaking into corners at the end of long straights,say, is going to consist of overtaking drivers pulling out very late....I didn't mean to imply they were going to go inside and be there for a couple of hundred metres.

Brings about another circumstance which is a little O/T - will teams be fuelling there cars 1/2 Kg lighter than their calculations - because they think they can pick up 1/2 Kg more rubber ...than they did last season on the cool down lap....well except Spa...

[DILLIGAF]

Yeah but we had 17/18 dgrees here in Melbourne on friday, and the GP is still 3 weeks away - so temps could still be fairly low... and wet.

Having said that, today it is high twenties so we could easily see 30+ degrees for the GP - Melbourne weather tends to be a bit unpredictable...

Very true. As they say about Melbourne, you can have 4 seasons in the one day.

[HopkinsonF1]

Why does nobody ever mention Glock when oversteer comes up? The man can cope with oversteer that'd put most people into the wall.

[David M. Kane]

F1 has always been about who takes the equipment handed to them and makes the best adjustments.

[ktsayshi]

Why does nobody ever mention Glock when oversteer comes up? The man can cope with oversteer that'd put most people into the wall.

I'm sure everyone's already seen this Timo-video, but it bears reposting every once in a while:

Edited by ktsayshi, 06 March 2011 - 17:35.

[Birelman]

Nope, if there are a lot of marbles drivers who stay on the clean line are going to know the car behind is going to stay right behind them. Nobody's going to go offline for the pleasure of braking earlier and having pickup ruin their next lap.

Having overtaking under braking is going to depend on the tyres shedding less on the warmer surfaces in the race season. Hopefully that will be the case.

Mark Hughes is probably right though, all the drivers are going to have to drive a tail-happy car this year, whatever setup they start with.

Which is hopefully a good thing. As tires wear out, there might be overtaking opportunities opening up, as in the unpredictability of a wet race. We'll see I guess, but I can hope

[cpaqf1]

Nope, if there are a lot of marbles drivers who stay on the clean line are going to know the car behind is going to stay right behind them. Nobody's going to go offline for the pleasure of braking earlier and having pickup ruin their next lap.

Having overtaking under braking is going to depend on the tyres shedding less on the warmer surfaces in the race season. Hopefully that will be the case.

Mark Hughes is probably right though, all the drivers are going to have to drive a tail-happy car this year, whatever setup they start with.

correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean compared to last year ? I'm asking because I thought that what made it understeer was the narrower front tires, and this year theyre still narrower then the rear ones, so wouldn't it just have less understeer instead of oversteering ?

[undersquare]

[/b]
Which is hopefully a good thing. As tires wear out, there might be overtaking opportunities opening up, as in the unpredictability of a wet race. We'll see I guess, but I can hope

Yep, we see a lot of passes that start with traction on the previous corner don't we, so hopefully some more of those coming up...

correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean compared to last year ? I'm asking because I thought that what made it understeer was the narrower front tires, and this year theyre still narrower then the rear ones, so wouldn't it just have less understeer instead of oversteering ?

This year it seems that Pirelli have weakened the rears, by rounding the profile to match the fronts. The rears are apparently wearing faster than the fronts, so during each stint the balance is going to change from understeer (assuming they set it up like that) to oversteer.

Should be fun. The only worry I have is whether they can lean on the tyres and drive on the limit, without immediately destroying the tyres. We don't need a grannyfest. Have to hope the track temperature is going to fix that, though it doesn't look like we're going to find out before Melb.

Edited by undersquare, 07 March 2011 - 19:45.

[cpaqf1]

Yep, we see a lot of passes that start with traction on the previous corner don't we, so hopefully some more of those coming up...



This year it seems that Pirelli have weakened the rears, by rounding the profile to match the fronts. The rears are apparently wearing faster than the fronts, so during each stint the balance is going to change from understeer (assuming they set it up like that) to oversteer.

Should be fun. The only worry I have is whether they can lean on the tyres and drive on the limit, without immediately destroying the tyres. We don't need a grannyfest. Have to hope the track temperature is going to fix that, though it doesn't look like we're going to find out before Melb.

Ok, and is the fact that they oversteer in part due to the fact that they're so new ? basically, as they develop them, would they become less oversteery ?

[FA and RK fan]

I'm sure everyone's already seen this Timo-video, but it bears reposting every once in a while:

WOW Alonso got pwned there.

[undersquare]

Ok, and is the fact that they oversteer in part due to the fact that they're so new ? basically, as they develop them, would they become less oversteery ?

Develop the tyres you mean? I don't think they're going to change much now. They've made a lot of the race tyres already, though by only using Softs and Hards in the first 4 races they've left themselves some time to fiddle with the Supersofts.

But with no more testing after the season starts I don't think the teams would welcome any more changes anyway. And it's not a fault, after all, everybody wanted a change from the everlasting Bridgestones. Lurid oversteer that the teams can't prevent is

[BigCHrome]

According to autosport print, the tires wear out regardless of who is driving and it will be roughly the same for everybody.

[midgrid]

But the tyre wear should vary from team to team, I should think.

[pingu666]

might get people/teams who set the car up for a certain stage of wear, and are there for better during certain periods. the tyres are like that in nascar, pretty much

[l8apex]

I'm sure everyone's already seen this Timo-video, but it bears reposting every once in a while:

The explanation at the end isn't very good. The driver sliding on exit while the other one is putting power down isn't actually any faster, the key is additional entry speed. The example against Trulli is also sort of silly because Trulli messed up the corner entry and got a slower exit all on his own.

The technique that is outlined is more speed is carried on entry and an oversteer/slide is used to scrub off a little of that additional speed, but not all of it while also getting the car pointed in the right direction faster for quicker application of full throttle.

I think that the current tire situation will suit the drivers that are most adaptable and hurt those that are only very fast when the car suits their particular style. I don't think this will hurt FA, but it may very well cause issues for Button as the car swings from understeer to oversteer based on what tire is mounted and how many laps are on them.

Which other drivers are best at adapting to a car regardless of understeer/oversteer is a better question?

[Skinnyguy]

The explanation at the end isn't very good. The driver sliding on exit while the other one is putting power down isn't actually any faster