49 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

Which was the first manuacturer to offer an automatic transmission on their vehicles and when?
At a guess pre WW2 and an American manufacturer. Am I right?

[Magoo]

I guess it depends on how you define automatic transmission, but in the modern sense of put the lever in D and go, 1940 Oldsmobile Hydra-Matic Drive.


The transmission did have a predecessor in the '38 MY, the Oldsmobile Automatic Safety Transmission -- it shifted automatically but required a clutch pedal for starting off.

[desmo]

I think of autos as essentially idiot proof so I got a chuckle out an article in Quattroruote magazine a couple of years back explaining over a full page of text the arcane techniques for driving an AT to the typical Italian who had never driven one. I suppose it's only a matter of time now until it will be as impossible to find a stick shift rental in EU as it is in the US.

[Magoo]

Since we are into facilities and buildings lately, the Hydra-Matic story is worth telling. Just after the war GM built a huge plant in Livonia for Hydra-Matic production -- state of art, million plus sq. ft. The layout was expansive enough that the local authorities were persuaded to close off one of the side roads for use as a drag strip, to get the local hot rodders off the streets. The first organized drag racing in the Detroit area was held here in 1953 -- commonly known today as the "Eckles Road drag races," which is slightly incorrect. The racing was actually done on Arnheim, the intersecting street.

However, that summer the plant burned down -- the largest industrial fire in history at the time, and still one of the biggest. It was said the entire building went up in minutes. This left GM with no Hydra-Matic production, so for part of the model year, Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles were built with Buick Dynaflow transmissions, while Pontiacs were equipped with Chevrolet Powerglides. Meanwhile, GM quickly purchased the Kaiser-Frazer Willow Run plant -- the factory originally built by Ford to manufacture the B-24 Liberator -- and moved Hydra-Matic production there. Willow Run is an interesting little village, east of Ypsilanti and west of Detroit, that had been built from scratch in a few months to provide housing, schooling, shopping, and churches for the bomber plant workers and their families. Willow Run's much-advertised goal was to turn out one four-engine bomber per hour, and it is claimed they achieved it. Though Rosie the Riveter is not an actual person but a composite or character, it was said that she worked here. A rather large airport was also built next to the plant to fly the bombers out (Connie Kalitta's private air force is now based there). GM later built the Corvair plant adjacent to the B-24 plant. However, in recent years production was slowly phased out of the complex and moved to other facilities, with most of the transmissions now built at the Toledo drivetrain plant (which was originally the American Propeller Company, another war effort deal). Willow Run finally closed for good last year.

[Catalina Park]

Since we are into facilities and buildings lately, the Hydra-Matic story is worth telling. Just after the war GM built a huge plant in Livonia for Hydra-Matic production -- state of art, million plus sq. ft. The layout was expansive enough that the local authorities were persuaded to close off one of the side roads for use as a drag strip, to get the local hot rodders off the streets. The first organized drag racing in the Detroit area was held here in 1953 -- commonly known today as the "Eckles Road drag races," which is slightly incorrect. The racing was actually done on Arnheim, the intersecting street.

However, that summer the plant burned down -- the largest industrial fire in history at the time, and still one of the biggest. It was said the entire building went up in minutes. This left GM with no Hydra-Matic production, so for part of the model year, Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles were built with Buick Dynaflow transmissions, while Pontiacs were equipped with Chevrolet Powerglides. Meanwhile, GM quickly purchased the Kaiser-Frazer Willow Run plant -- the factory originally built by Ford to manufacture the B-24 Liberator -- and moved Hydra-Matic production there. Willow Run is an interesting little village, east of Ypsilanti and west of Detroit, that had been built from scratch in a few months to provide housing, schooling, shopping, and churches for the bomber plant workers and their families. Willow Run's much-advertised goal was to turn out one four-engine bomber per hour, and it is claimed they achieved it. Though Rosie the Riveter is not an actual person but a composite or character, it was said that she worked here. A rather large airport was also built next to the plant to fly the bombers out (Connie Kalitta's private air force is now based there). GM later built the Corvair plant adjacent to the B-24 plant. However, in recent years production was slowly phased out of the complex and moved to other facilities, with most of the transmissions now built at the Toledo drivetrain plant (which was originally the American Propeller Company, another war effort deal). Willow Run finally closed for good last year.

Keep going...

[mariner]

I remember driving past the GM Hydra-matic plant in the 1970's the first time I went to Detroit. I could not believe how big it was, I guess I was looking at the Willow Run one which explains the size.

One thing that is interesting is that by the 1940's production engineers had developed two of the most precise parts of a modern car , the auto transmission in the US and direct fuel injection in Germany ( for aircraft) The aircraft volumes would have been less than auto transmissions but both items, requiring very precise and repeatable tolerances in volume, were actually developed much earlier than is perhaps realised.

The English Merlin engines suffered in combat versus the German DB ones because they lacked the ability of fuel injection to operate upside down. Apparently it wa sa woman engineer at the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK who, given the problem, came up with a simple carb. mod. which helped the Merlin engine operate upside down so I guess the history of smart female engineers also goes back further than modern legend would have it.

BTW I loved a 1950/60's saying " God gave you two feet, Borg Warner gave you automatic transmission"

[Magoo]

Keep going...

Here is a nice little slide-show history of Willow Run, including both the factory and the worker village:

http://www.ypsilanti...wrun/index.html

Virtually all the village is gone now -- the wooden buildings were erected on the quick and cheap. However, many of the streets are still there, though some of the street names have changed. The Willow Run school district is still in operation, and struggling mightily, I expect, with the final closing of the plant and the loss of the tax base. That's a shame -- they have a first-class high school. I've been there and I was impressed with both the facility and the kids. The area is now sort of rural-suburban, lower-middle-working class, and ethnically and culturally diverse -- as it was from the beginning, due to the influx of wartime workers from all over.

After the war, Kaiser-Frazer took over the plant, while the University of Michigan got the air field and the village for one dollar. The former worker housing was then used as married student housing for men on the GI bill. In the late '50s, the former worker housing was vacated and the land was eventually filled in with residential subdivisions. Here is a story of the Willow Run village from a student wife's perspective:

http://michigantoday...t94/mt8o94.html

[Lee Nicolle]

Very interesting. Thanks.
And my thoughts were close on re auto trans.
I wonder how much similarity those early ones had to what the 62 Holden used. They were quite dated by then. Replaced by alloy powerglides in 65 though a 3 litre engine with only 2 speeds was a bit average too in hindsight. And compared with Chryslers torqueflite very average

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 15 March 2011 - 13:01.

[Grumbles]

..The English Merlin engines suffered in combat versus the German DB ones because they lacked the ability of fuel injection to operate upside down. Apparently it wa sa woman engineer at the Royal Aircraft Establishment in the UK who, given the problem, came up with a simple carb. mod. which helped the Merlin engine operate upside down so I guess the history of smart female engineers also goes back further than modern legend would have it

I think you refer to Miss Shillings Orifice

[Magoo]

Very interesting. Thanks.
And my thoughts were close on re auto trans.
I wonder how much similarity those early ones had to what the 62 Holden used. They were quite dated by then. Replaced by alloy powerglides in 65 though a 3 litre engine with only 2 speeds was a bit average too in hindsight. And compared with Chryslers torqueflite very average

That would be the Roto Hydramatic (unofficial name Slim Jim), available in two versions, the (smaller) Model 5 aka 240 and the (larger) Model 10 aka 375. Used by Olds, Buick, and Pontiac 1961-64; also Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden. Compacts used the Model 5 while small-engined big cars got the Model 10. It was a totally different design than the original Hydra-Matic with three forward speeds rather than four, and torque multiplication rather than fluid coupling. However, some Roto Hydramatic models were claimed to operate in four "ranges" (as opposed to gears or speeds) by operating 2nd gear two ways, with and without torque multiplication. However, you can feel it shift only twice. Not the finest automatic transmission GM ever built but not bad really. IMO, people tend to dislike them mainly because they are oddballs only used for a few years, poor parts interchange and availability, etc.

Considerably smaller and lighter than the original Hydra-matic, which was all cast iron and weighed about as much as a Chevy V8, the Slim Jim was all aluminum, and a bit of a strange ranger in that when you pull it out of the car and look in yon bell housing hole, you won't see a torque converter but a thing called a damper plate staring back at you, with damper springs like a clutch disc. The torque converter business is further inside the case, incorporated with the front pump and so on.

Edited by Magoo, 15 March 2011 - 20:24.

[Lee Nicolle]

That would be the Roto Hydramatic (unofficial name Slim Jim), available in two versions, the (smaller) Model 5 aka 240 and the (larger) Model 10 aka 375. Used by Olds, Buick, and Pontiac 1961-64; also Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden. Compacts used the Model 5 while small-engined big cars got the Model 10. It was a totally different design than the original Hydra-Matic with three forward speeds rather than four, and torque multiplication rather than fluid coupling. However, some Roto Hydramatic models were claimed to operate in four "ranges" (as opposed to gears or speeds) by operating 2nd gear two ways, with and without torque multiplication. However, you can feel it shift only twice. Not the finest automatic transmission GM ever built but not bad really. IMO, people tend to dislike them mainly because they are oddballs only used for a few years, poor parts interchange and availability, etc.

Considerably smaller and lighter than the original Hydra-matic, which was all cast iron and weighed about as much as a Chevy V8, the Slim Jim was all aluminum, and a bit of a strange ranger in that when you pull it out of the car and look in yon bell housing hole, you won't see a torque converter but a thing called a damper plate staring back at you, with damper springs like a clutch disc. The torque converter business is further inside the case, incorporated with the front pump and so on.

And when you pulled the tranny out most of the springs were laying chewed up in the flywheel cover. And the spline had eventually stripped out leaving no drive. That is a job most repairers did regularly did in period. I had a EH Holden nut here the other day with a very rattly drive plate. I told him he better go find one soon!! If they are alloy they are still very large and heavy!! I never cleaned one to look and it is 20 years since I did one.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 15 March 2011 - 21:57.

[Magoo]

And when you pulled the tranny out most of the springs were laying chewed up in the flywheel cover. And the spline had eventually stripped out leaving no drive. That is a job most repairers did regularly did in period. I had a EH Holden nut here the other day with a very rattly drive plate. I told him he better go find one soon!! If they are alloy they are still very large and heavy!! I never cleaned one to look and it is 20 years since I did one.

Yes, that was one of the weak points of the Roto Hydramatic, especially in harder usage. I see there is a busy little cottage industry these days in reproduction damper plates. The aluminum Powerglide would have been a better choice for AU, which I believe was soon adopted.

The Roto was optimized for smooth, soft operation, which was a constant political struggle within GM among the various divisions. The original Hydra-Matic was a pretty firm shifter and with no torque multiplication, only a straight fluid coupling, required more gear changes. The Buick people didn't care for this, especially with their torque tube rear axle setup, which tended to transmit torque shocks up and down the drivetrain. Hence the Dynaflow, which in its original configuration did not shift at all (eventually it got an active first gear.) At the same time the Roto was introduced, Buick had its own transmission for its Skylark compact, a sort of mini-Dynaflow, even though the Skylark was Hotchkiss (open) driveline. For a while there in the early '60s, GM was up to around a half-dozen different automatic transmissions, depending how you count, which is fairly incredible (and expensive) in hindsight. This all changed when the Turbo-Hydramatics were introduced and standardized.

[Lee Nicolle]

Old Hydramatic in Holdens NEVER had a firm change, just a big flare into the next gear! And that was when new.
Powerglides changed ok and where far more modern but with a torqueless little 6 they were a bit average. I always called them fast and faster trans as the would do about 65mph in low on a standard car.
On the later V8 cars low was good for about 90mph with a 2.78 diff
GMH had a history of very average transmissions in general. The EJ on 3 speed manual was abysmal, hydramatic preistoric [even then]powerglide not suitable for the [6] engines. Trimatic while better is better known as the traumatic!. Early speeds were Opel boxes from a 4 cyl engine.
And then things like the L34 Torana with 380bhp in race trim with a 250 hp gearbox [Aussie] and a 200hp diff [7"ringgear banjo]

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 March 2011 - 22:20.

[Magoo]

Along with Earl Thompson, who was mentioned recently in the Nastiest IRS thread as the developer of Syncho-mesh, another key player in the original Hydra-Matic was Charles L. McCuen. He worked his way into the biz as a technical assistant to Col. Jesse Vincent at Packard, then went on to the Rickenbacker Motor Co. He arrived at GM in the late 20s where he worked on the L6, L8, and V8 Oldsmobile and Viking engines. (One of Marion's favorites.) In just a few years McCuen made General Manager at Oldsmobile, where he was the corporation's head cheerleader for the Hydra-Matic program. When Kettering retired he became the new head of the GM Research Laboratories, but in '55 or '56 he crashed the Firebird I turbine car at the Milford Proving Grounds. The car went through a guardrail at high speed, seriously injuring him. At that point he decided to retire, although he made a full recovery.

Edited by Magoo, 18 March 2011 - 03:39.

[Terry Walker]

I regularly drive cars with the 4-speed early Hydramatics - Silver Cloud RRs. While they were actually built by RR under licence they were, internally, identical. As I understand it, the design consist of two two-speed auto trains one of which provides 1-2, the other 3-4. If you don't get the clutch action between the front and rear sets very accurately synchonised, you get a notable thump, no doubt caused by one clutch picking up before the other lets go. I've driven examples which are wonderfully smooth on all shifts, but it's uncommon on cars that are now hitting 50 years old.

Of course I'm no trans engineer, but the explanation I've been given and rehashed above makes sense to me. Oh. and it's a bugger to adjust too. Special tools part No . . . you can fill in the rest.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Old Hydramatic in Holdens NEVER had a firm change, just a big flare into the next gear! And that was when new.
Powerglides changed ok and where far more modern but with a torqueless little 6 they were a bit average. I always called them fast and faster trans as the would do about 65mph in low on a standard car.
On the later V8 cars low was good for about 90mph with a 2.78 diff
GMH had a history of very average transmissions in general. The EJ on 3 speed manual was abysmal, hydramatic preistoric [even then]powerglide not suitable for the [6] engines. Trimatic while better is better known as the traumatic!. Early speeds were Opel boxes from a 4 cyl engine.
And then things like the L34 Torana with 380bhp in race trim with a 250 hp gearbox [Aussie] and a 200hp diff [7"ringgear banjo]

That Torana was a beast.

[venator]

To answer the original question, the first car with an automatic transmission was the Sturtevant, circa 1908.

[Grumbles]

Old Hydramatic in Holdens NEVER had a firm change, just a big flare into the next gear! And that was when new.
Powerglides changed ok and where far more modern but with a torqueless little 6 they were a bit average. I always called them fast and faster trans as the would do about 65mph in low on a standard car.
On the later V8 cars low was good for about 90mph with a 2.78 diff
GMH had a history of very average transmissions in general. The EJ on 3 speed manual was abysmal, hydramatic preistoric [even then]powerglide not suitable for the [6] engines. Trimatic while better is better known as the traumatic!. Early speeds were Opel boxes from a 4 cyl engine.
And then things like the L34 Torana with 380bhp in race trim with a 250 hp gearbox [Aussie] and a 200hp diff [7"ringgear banjo]

I don't think the old Trimatics (TH180 to the rest of the world) really deserve their poor reputation. The ones I've had have all performed well and I've seen them take some horrendous mistreatment without failing.

I kind of miss the old hydraulically controlled transmissions. My wife bought a new Suzuki Swift and it's a nice handling car with a sweet little engine. But in normal driving the transmission insists on keeping the engine about 1500rpm under its sweet spot. Applying more throttle doesn't seem to change it much until it finally kicks down a couple of gears and screams. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to fine tune it.
In the good old days of course (with TH400s etc.) you'd trim the vac. modulator and/or the governor and it'd be all sweet..

[Lee Nicolle]

I regularly drive cars with the 4-speed early Hydramatics - Silver Cloud RRs. While they were actually built by RR under licence they were, internally, identical. As I understand it, the design consist of two two-speed auto trains one of which provides 1-2, the other 3-4. If you don't get the clutch action between the front and rear sets very accurately synchonised, you get a notable thump, no doubt caused by one clutch picking up before the other lets go. I've driven examples which are wonderfully smooth on all shifts, but it's uncommon on cars that are now hitting 50 years old.

Of course I'm no trans engineer, but the explanation I've been given and rehashed above makes sense to me. Oh. and it's a bugger to adjust too. Special tools part No . . . you can fill in the rest.

I think you will find that GM produce Turbo 400s for RR who install them as recieved. Early on RR tried to reengineer them and causeD a lot of problems.

[Lee Nicolle]

[quote name='Grumbles' date='Mar 19 2011, 03:12' post='4900374']
I don't think the old Trimatics (TH180 to the rest of the world) really deserve their poor reputation. The ones I've had have all performed well and I've seen them take some horrendous mistreatment without failing.

I kind of miss the old hydraulically controlled transmissions. My wife bought a new Suzuki Swift and it's a nice handling car with a sweet little engine. But in normal driving the transmission insists on keeping the engine about 1500rpm under its sweet spot. Applying more throttle doesn't seem to change it much until it finally kicks down a couple of gears and screams. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to fine tune it.
In the good old days of course (with TH400s etc.) you'd trim the vac. modulator and/or the governor and it'd be all sweet..
[/quote.
Back in the days when modern cars had traumatics you used to time how long they took to go backwards. Anything under 5 sec was a good one!!
I used those Holdens with 253s and 308s for towing. What seemed a decent trans all turned to crap towing down the South East Freeway. Huge flares back to second and big slides into top. The T400s were basically trouble free.Then I discovered Fords and found that C4s did the job ok if treated carefully unlike the Traumatic. One is a trans and one a joke! Though by the time they got rid of them they were ok behind 6s and less bad behind the V8. Though you do not tow with a Commodore unless you are desperate.

[Grumbles]

Back in the days when modern cars had traumatics you used to time how long they took to go backwards. Anything under 5 sec was a good one!!
I used those Holdens with 253s and 308s for towing. What seemed a decent trans all turned to crap towing down the South East Freeway. Huge flares back to second and big slides into top. The T400s were basically trouble free.Then I discovered Fords and found that C4s did the job ok if treated carefully unlike the Traumatic. One is a trans and one a joke! Though by the time they got rid of them they were ok behind 6s and less bad behind the V8. Though you do not tow with a Commodore unless you are desperate.

Maybe I was just lucky Lee. But I never had any trouble at all with them, not even with the infamous reverse baulk. Mind you they were mainly behind sixes and I didn't tow anything really heavy. I loved the 400s though - a bit heavy maybe but bulletproof and perfectly behaved.

[gruntguru]

I kind of miss the old hydraulically controlled transmissions. My wife bought a new Suzuki Swift and it's a nice handling car with a sweet little engine. But in normal driving the transmission insists on keeping the engine about 1500rpm under its sweet spot. Applying more throttle doesn't seem to change it much until it finally kicks down a couple of gears and screams. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to fine tune it.
In the good old days of course (with TH400s etc.) you'd trim the vac. modulator and/or the governor and it'd be all sweet..

No fault of the electronic trans - simply the programming. Probably programmed for fuel economy - large throttle at low revs. Of course the fact that you can't fudge it can be blamed on it being electronic.

Does it have a seperate ECU for the trans and engine? If so you just need to fudge the TPS signal to the trans computer.

[Grumbles]

No fault of the electronic trans - simply the programming. Probably programmed for fuel economy - large throttle at low revs. Of course the fact that you can't fudge it can be blamed on it being electronic.

Does it have a seperate ECU for the trans and engine? If so you just need to fudge the TPS signal to the trans computer.

It does have a separate TCM but it gets TP data via the ECU. I'd thought about fudging the signals from the input and output shaft encoders (to make the TCM think the engine and vehicle was going slower than it really was) but then that would probably also make the TCM think the torque converter was stuffed and the speedo malfunction.
I shouldn't worry really - I rarely drive it and my wife couldn't care less how it shifts. It just bugs me that such a nice car with a nice little engine is needlessly handicapped by inappropriate programming.

[Wilyman]

No fault of the electronic trans - simply the programming. Probably programmed for fuel economy - large throttle at low revs. Of course the fact that you can't fudge it can be blamed on it being electronic.

Does it have a seperate ECU for the trans and engine? If so you just need to fudge the TPS signal to the trans computer.

Anyone for a BorgWarner 35? Cheap to overhaul [not very often]. Band adjustment only if you detect a delay or thump.
Every change can be felt, not like some of the electronic jobbies.
Variations were used in Valiants. Falcons. Volvo 140 and 164 [6cyl]. ....

[gruntguru]

It does have a separate TCM but it gets TP data via the ECU. I'd thought about fudging the signals from the input and output shaft encoders (to make the TCM think the engine and vehicle was going slower than it really was) but then that would probably also make the TCM think the torque converter was stuffed and the speedo malfunction.
I shouldn't worry really - I rarely drive it and my wife couldn't care less how it shifts. It just bugs me that such a nice car with a nice little engine is needlessly handicapped by inappropriate programming.

Yes. Many cars have a "power"/"economy" switch to let you have the best of both worlds.

It would really need the TPS fudged rather than vehicle or engine speed. It could probably be changed a fair bit before the engine control unit starts to get confused.

[gruntguru]

Variations were used in Valiants. Falcons. Volvo 140 and 164 [6cyl]. ....

Datsun 120Y?

[Kelpiecross]

Which was the first manuacturer to offer an automatic transmission on their vehicles and when?
At a guess pre WW2 and an American manufacturer. Am I right?

The first autos I became aware of in the fifties were the Borg Warner DG types - in Jags, Zephyrs, Humbers etc. I later owned one in a 3.8 Jag - it seemed pretty good to me. I don't remember any American car being sold in Oz (not Fords and Chevys anyhow) in the early fifties as an auto.

At least with these early autos you could feel a sensible progression through the gears. I find the modern 4 and 5-speed etc. autos annoying.

[Peter Leversedge]

Lee - Its a long time since I was involved with auto transmissions but was the DG fitted to early Studebakers?. Did you use the spline repair kits for the 05 tans

[Lee Nicolle]

The first autos I became aware of in the fifties were the Borg Warner DG types - in Jags, Zephyrs, Humbers etc. I later owned one in a 3.8 Jag - it seemed pretty good to me. I don't remember any American car being sold in Oz (not Fords and Chevys anyhow) in the early fifties as an auto.

At least with these early autos you could feel a sensible progression through the gears. I find the modern 4 and 5-speed etc. autos annoying.

Early 50s were thin on the ground in Oz but by mid 50s most of the American cars were advailable in auto. About 53 54 I think. But we were about 5+ years behind. The cars were advailable but not brought in from Canada. [Most US cars were sourced from Canada to keep the money in the Commonwealth. Still happens to an extent]

[Magoo]

Your Trimatic sounds an awful lot like the GM Strausbourg 3-speed automatic. I believe there was a fix for the reverse delay but I no longer remember what it was or how well it worked.

[24gerrard]

Nobody has mentioned the Wilson pre-selector gearbox fitted to the early racing ERAs of the 1930s.
The ERAs won a lot of races until they replaced the Wilson with a manual gearbox.
It was fitted to a number of British larger saloons like the Armstrong Siddeley. It had multi epicyclics with brake bands.(which has a lot to do with harsh shifts and the need for special adjustment spacers and torque settings with wind back turns on many autos).
I have converted the BW 35 to clutch flite operation in a mk 1 escort rally cross car, that worked well. Brass plates instead of fiber.
A laycock de normanville overdrive addition to the BW 45 4 speed. (Derek Gardener ex Tyrell helped me with that one when he was MD at BW UK)
A Junior dragster with a clutchflite British Leyland AP A 4 speed auto and A series cooper s unit, that won a championship at the strip.
A 5 speed AP A automotive products box in a cooper s 1/4 mile oval hot rod with electronic shift. Modified valve chest and governor allowed the extra gear ratio. The concept formed the basis for the first automatic moog operated F1 box used in the Ferrari of 89, Mansels car (took him a while to stop spinning the car under test). The mini still holds lap records.
Modified Jensen FF Ferguson four wheeled drive unit with clutch flite TF8 box. Ginger Baker of Cream had three of these cars and he drag raced my 351 Cleveland Mustang with both C4 high stall auto and C6 clutchflite. The FF was and probably still is the best super car ever built. Worked much better with the Hemi rather than the wedge engine though close to 1000 bhp on the road and drivable in 1976. UJs were a problem. Check out Ferguson 4WD.
Pre selector model T ford was nearly the first auto but I think there was one earlier in the States.

[Grumbles]

Your Trimatic sounds an awful lot like the GM Strausbourg 3-speed automatic...

That's exactly what it is.

[Grumbles]

Nobody has mentioned the Wilson pre-selector gearbox fitted to the early racing ERAs of the 1930s.
The ERAs won a lot of races until they replaced the Wilson with a manual gearbox.
It was fitted to a number of British larger saloons like the Armstrong Siddeley. It had multi epicyclics with brake bands.(which has a lot to do with harsh shifts and the need for special adjustment spacers and torque settings with wind back turns on many autos).
I have converted the BW 35 to clutch flite operation in a mk 1 escort rally cross car, that worked well. Brass plates instead of fiber.
A laycock de normanville overdrive addition to the BW 45 4 speed. (Derek Gardener ex Tyrell helped me with that one when he was MD at BW UK)
A Junior dragster with a clutchflite British Leyland AP A 4 speed auto and A series cooper s unit, that won a championship at the strip.
A 5 speed AP A automotive products box in a cooper s 1/4 mile oval hot rod with electronic shift. Modified valve chest and governor allowed the extra gear ratio. The concept formed the basis for the first automatic moog operated F1 box used in the Ferrari of 89, Mansels car (took him a while to stop spinning the car under test). The mini still holds lap records.
Modified Jensen FF Ferguson four wheeled drive unit with clutch flite TF8 box. Ginger Baker of Cream had three of these cars and he drag raced my 351 Cleveland Mustang with both C4 high stall auto and C6 clutchflite. The FF was and probably still is the best super car ever built. Worked much better with the Hemi rather than the wedge engine though close to 1000 bhp on the road and drivable in 1976. UJs were a problem. Check out Ferguson 4WD.
Pre selector model T ford was nearly the first auto but I think there was one earlier in the States.

Welcome. You've certainly been involved with some interesting transmission projects. I'd love to know more about any or all of them and I'm sure others here would too. I'm especially curious about the clutchflites; what was the reason for choosing this setup with the Escort? Very rarely see clutchflites in drag racing these days apart from the odd nostalgia car. Have they been made obsolete by todays better torque converters?

[24gerrard]

Torque converters, even lock up versions, are not an efficient method of transfering torque and are to heavy and pose a balance problem at high revs.
(Current layshaft gearboxes are also inefficient, whether single layshaft or so called but untrue 'seamless' gearboxes with twin shafts and or twin clutches. There is no such thing as a seamless stepped gearbox. Things like zeroshift can be beaten by a good driver using a stick shift with dog clutches, the rest is hype and marketing. Taking torque out onto a layshaft and back results in off center burst loads and high loss from gear drag and oil windage. Epicyclic geartrains have even burst loads and can be configured to have fewer if any gears rotating in engagement)
I replaced the converter with a conventional clutch in my experiments to eliminate the torque loss and to give a method of direct engagement.
This is a clutchflite modification. Drag cars use fly out weights and constantly variable friction direct engagement today, or as you say torque converters with internal lock up clutches. This is OK for pure acceleration on a strip but no good for controled shifting on a circuit or stage.
My work was on the improved control and increased speed of shifts, mainly in epicyclic transmissions, including bevel epicyclics using hydrolic, pneumatic and electronic systems.
F1 regulations went to seven speed layshaft with automatic control over the selector mechanism as a direct result of this work in the 70s.
The seven gears was a result of the ratchet gear selector limit I suggested for Jordan because of their low budget, it became the FIA maximum number of ratios regulation.
I have a design for a seven speed stepped gearbox that needs no clutch and is also a KERS or Hybrid application all in one unit. In top gear it has only one support bearing and non of the gears are rotating in mesh. It is awaiting development funding.

[Magoo]

That's exactly what it is.

In North America we saw the Strasbourg 3-spd auto transmission in Opels and also in some Chevrolet Vegas and (T-body) Chevettes. I seem to be picturing a vacuum modulator on that trans. Is that correct?

[Grumbles]

In North America we saw the Strasbourg 3-spd auto transmission in Opels and also in some Chevrolet Vegas and (T-body) Chevettes. I seem to be picturing a vacuum modulator on that trans. Is that correct?

Thats it. AKA TH180 or later 3L-30. Used a Ravigneaux (sp?) gearset rather than the Simpson of its bigger brothers.

[Terry Walker]

Lee -

Yeah, the 3-speed GM400s in the RRs are ex GM out of a box. The older 4-speeders were built by RR under licence and they made a few errors setting up the production in UK, but that was all fixed by the time they actually went into cars. RR and Bentley for USA market actually used fully imported GM-built 4-speed boxes rather than the UK built ones. For all practical purposes the boxes were identical, and at one stage RR rushed off to GM Eurpe HQ and bought a great load of clutch plates when their own production fell short.

Early Silver Shadows had the 4-speeds for the UK market and GM400s for export, and I guess when the old 4-speeds stock in UK ran circa 1968 out they standardised GM400 across all production. Later they used the GM4004. My 70 model is GM 400 equipped, a box which inspires great confidence and works beautifully and is dead reliable. I don't know where RR get their boxes from now - presumably Germany.

[Catalina Park]

Nobody has mentioned the Wilson pre-selector gearbox fitted to the early racing ERAs of the 1930s.
The ERAs won a lot of races until they replaced the Wilson with a manual gearbox.
It was fitted to a number of British larger saloons like the Armstrong Siddeley. It had multi epicyclics with brake bands.(which has a lot to do with harsh shifts and the need for special adjustment spacers and torque settings with wind back turns on many autos).
I have converted the BW 35 to clutch flite operation in a mk 1 escort rally cross car, that worked well. Brass plates instead of fiber.
A laycock de normanville overdrive addition to the BW 45 4 speed. (Derek Gardener ex Tyrell helped me with that one when he was MD at BW UK)
A Junior dragster with a clutchflite British Leyland AP A 4 speed auto and A series cooper s unit, that won a championship at the strip.
A 5 speed AP A automotive products box in a cooper s 1/4 mile oval hot rod with electronic shift. Modified valve chest and governor allowed the extra gear ratio. The concept formed the basis for the first automatic moog operated F1 box used in the Ferrari of 89, Mansels car (took him a while to stop spinning the car under test). The mini still holds lap records.
Modified Jensen FF Ferguson four wheeled drive unit with clutch flite TF8 box. Ginger Baker of Cream had three of these cars and he drag raced my 351 Cleveland Mustang with both C4 high stall auto and C6 clutchflite. The FF was and probably still is the best super car ever built. Worked much better with the Hemi rather than the wedge engine though close to 1000 bhp on the road and drivable in 1976. UJs were a problem. Check out Ferguson 4WD.
Pre selector model T ford was nearly the first auto but I think there was one earlier in the States.

Very interested in your work on the AP 4 and 5 speed. I have a soft spot for these boxes, I have a number of BMC cars including a Morris 1100 Auto and a Cooper S.

[24gerrard]

I designed an eight speed F1 box based on the AP bevel epicyclic gear train. Also a 25 speed version for project 425 a landspeed record motorbike that Lotus considered building for Geof Garside.
The Leyland mini auto was strong enough with minor modifications for high power use, the manual gearbox in the mini was not and I have broken a number of these.

[24gerrard]

Thats it. AKA TH180 or later 3L-30. Used a Ravigneaux (sp?) gearset rather than the Simpson of its bigger brothers.

Pressed steel clutch drums, three if I remember one inside the other like a Russian doll.
Vac modulater was the main cause of problems. The early ones were adjustable with a small screw to vary the diaphragm tension, the later ones were not.
They had different coloured bands painted on them.

[24gerrard]

The early hydramatic with fluid flywheel was fitted to the British Bren gun carrier during WW2.
The later light weight hydramatic version was fitted to the PA Cresta, best 4 speed auto I think I have driven, ruined with the later powerglide.
(My partner was the ex chief test driver from Vauxhalls. They had to recall the first Cresta's because the glove box was chrome and the driver got an eyefull of the passengers lower regions.)
The late Tony Rudd MD of Lotus used to drive the works ERA Remus up Goodwood Hill with the Wilson pre-selector box.
This box IMO would have far outstripped the GM products if there had been investment available for light weight casings and ongoing development.
Sadly like Britains superior airliners, fighters, rotary winged aircraft and many other things it ended up giving way to lesser technology.

[Lee Nicolle]

The early hydramatic with fluid flywheel was fitted to the British Bren gun carrier during WW2.
The later light weight hydramatic version was fitted to the PA Cresta, best 4 speed auto I think I have driven, ruined with the later powerglide.
(My partner was the ex chief test driver from Vauxhalls. They had to recall the first Cresta's because the glove box was chrome and the driver got an eyefull of the passengers lower regions.)
The late Tony Rudd MD of Lotus used to drive the works ERA Remus up Goodwood Hill with the Wilson pre-selector box.
This box IMO would have far outstripped the GM products if there had been investment available for light weight casings and ongoing development.
Sadly like Britains superior airliners, fighters, rotary winged aircraft and many other things it ended up giving way to lesser technology.

My memorys of hydramatics in PA PB Vauxhalls is the same as Holdens. slow flaring changes in a trans that sucked power.

[24gerrard]

My memorys of hydramatics in PA PB Vauxhalls is the same as Holdens. slow flaring changes in a trans that sucked power.

I can remember bad reports on the hydramatic in the Cresta.
Flared shift on early autos was usualy badly adjusted bands tv cable or modulator diaphragm.

I cannot understand why you report that they sucked power, properly set up the car accelerated faster than the manual version, my partner did comparisons tests on that.
It was a long time ago however and I cannot remember the technical figures.

[Grumbles]

A friend had one in an EK Holden. It flared badly and stripped the drive plate out so he took it to a guy who was recommended as an expert. This bloke appeared to be at least 110 years old but in truth he probably wasn't much more than 90.. anyhow when he got it back in it behaved perfectly with no flaring and the car accelerated noticeably quicker. I've never seen an old Hydramatic run so well.

[Lee Nicolle]

I can remember bad reports on the hydramatic in the Cresta.
Flared shift on early autos was usualy badly adjusted bands tv cable or modulator diaphragm.

I cannot understand why you report that they sucked power, properly set up the car accelerated faster than the manual version, my partner did comparisons tests on that.
It was a long time ago however and I cannot remember the technical figures.

One thing I can categorically say that no Holden 6 [Or a PA PB Vauxhall] will accelarate faster with an hydramatic over a manual. Because the old hydraslurp as they were known used plenty of power. Red motors and 2.6 Vauxhalls were no as bad as the older smaller engines.These are cars I grew up with an have owned several of.

[24gerrard]

One thing I can categorically say that no Holden 6 [Or a PA PB Vauxhall] will accelarate faster with an hydramatic over a manual. Because the old hydraslurp as they were known used plenty of power. Red motors and 2.6 Vauxhalls were no as bad as the older smaller engines.These are cars I grew up with an have owned several of.

I am sure this was your experience and it is backed up by many reports I have heard on the Hydramatics.
However, if set up correctly, I can assure you the Cresta Hydramatic was a fairly fast car and could be made to beat the manual.
I even raced one on two occasions, although it was much modified. It rolled a great deal.

[cheapracer]

The transmission did have a predecessor in the '38 MY, the Oldsmobile Automatic Safety Transmission -- it shifted automatically but required a clutch pedal for starting off.

Did I just read somewhere, and excuse me if it's in this very thread (It's late, can't sleep and I just got back out of bed), that that box was actually auto when you put it into "Drive" no need for the clutch but if you wanted to use a low gear then you had to use the clutch - almost like 2 boxes in one?

[cheapracer]

My memorys of hydramatics in PA PB Vauxhalls is the same as Holdens. slow flaring changes in a trans that sucked power.

One of our group as Teenagers came from South Australia and went to visit back home. A month or so later he arrives back with a car and licence at 16, the bastard! We had to wait till 18 (Victorians). Was a Grey motor'ed EK Holden with hydramatic and geeezus was it slooooooow

I don't agree the Trimatic was as bad as everyone makes out, plenty of modulators failed, so what, unscrew it, screw a new one in or replace the split vacuum line and away you go 5 minutes later. and even if they did have real problems they were dead easy and cheap to repair.

[Grumbles]

+1 on the Trimatic. An acquaintance runs one in a HT that runs high 10's. They don't last forever but he only modifies them lightly and because of their price (free, usually) they can be treated as just another consumable. I know they have their limitations but I've had great luck with them (with the later boxes particularly) behind quickish (13s) sixes.

[Lee Nicolle]

+1 on the Trimatic. An acquaintance runs one in a HT that runs high 10's. They don't last forever but he only modifies them lightly and because of their price (free, usually) they can be treated as just another consumable. I know they have their limitations but I've had great luck with them (with the later boxes particularly) behind quickish (13s) sixes.

Yeah, by VK they had got it almost a reliable trans. Then dropped it!! Actually I drove a VL 5L cop car the other day then got into an EB Falcon. One had a transmission!! And it was not a traumatic. I actually have 3 traumtic cars here at the moment and they all seem ok. But I bet if I put the trailer on anyone of them it would not be after 20 or 30 km!
For a 6 you will go faster with a manual anyway. And with the HT I bet the Turbo box would be a bit faster also.