85 replies to this topic

[fines]

As a spin-off of the Temporada thread, here's an inquiry about the Buenos Aires GP which continued right up until 1960. The 1956 and 1957 races are covered by Paul Sheldon, but I know little about the other races. Can anyone improve on my information which is as follows:

1954-01-31
65 laps (4.7 km), 305.8 km

1st Trintignant (Ferrari 2500), 2:38'35", 115.13 kph
2nd Mieres (Maserati 2500), 2:39'05.4"
3rd González/Farina (Ferrari 2500), 2:39'13.6"
4th Schell (Maserati 2500), 2:40'20.5"
5th Behra (Gordini 2500), 2:40'21.4"
6th Hawthorn (Ferrari 2500), 64 laps, accident (?)

? Bira (Maserati 2500)

R Farina (Ferrari 2500)
R Fangio (Maserati 2500)
R Landi (Maserati 2500)
R Marimón (Maserati 2500)
R Graffenried (Maserati 2500)
R Daponte (Maserati 2500), accident

FL Farina, 2'22.6", 118.80 kph

Crazy ways to lose a race, Part 17: Hawthorn led for virtually the whole race but spun at the last corner on the last lap!

1955-01-30
2 heats of 30 laps (4,706 km) each

Heat 1
1st Farina (#10 Ferrari 3000), 1:11'35.8", 118.33 kph
2nd Fangio (#2 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 1:11'46.3"
3rd Moss (#6 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 1:12'01.2"
4th Kling (#4 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 1:12'01.7"
5th González (#12 Ferrari 2500), 1:12'19.6"
6th Mieres (Maserati 2500)

? Trintignant (#14 Ferrari 2500)
? Bucci (Ferrari 2500)
? Behra (Maserati 2500)
? Schell (#20 Maserati)
? Maglioli (Ferrari 3750)
? Mantovani (Maserati)
? Musso (Maserati)
? Menditéguy (Maserati)
? Fava (Maserati)
? Pian (Maserati)
? Uria (Maserati)
? Bayol (#38 Gordini)
? Iglesias (Gordini)
? Birger (Gordini)

R Herrmann (Mercedes-Benz 2500), oil pump

FL Farina (lap 5), 2'19.5", 121.46 kph

Heat 2
1st Moss (#6 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 1:11'29.6", 118.50 kph
2nd Fangio (#2 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 1:11'32.6"
3rd Trintignant (#12 Ferrari 2500), 1:11'33.5"
4th Schell (#20 Maserati), 1:12'03"

? Kling (#4 Mercedes-Nenz 3000)
? Farina/González (#10 Ferrari 3000)
? Birger (Gordini)
? Menditéguy (Maserati)
? Behra (Maserati 2500)

R Mieres (Maserati 2500), differential, lap 13

FL Moss, 121.46 kph

Aggregate
1st Fangio (#2 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 2:23'18.9", 118.23 kph
2nd Moss (#6 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 2:23'30.8"
3rd González/Trintignant (#12 Ferrari 2500), 2:23'53.1"
4th Kling (#4 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 2:24'17.5"
5th Behra (Maserati 2500), 2:24'41.2"

1958-02-02
2 heats, 282.31 km

Heat 1
1st Hawthorn (Ferrari)
2nd Fangio (Maserati)

? Moss (Cooper_Climax)

R Kavanagh (Maserati)

Heat 2
1st Fangio (Maserati)

R Hawthorn (Ferrari), engine
R Collins (Ferrari), engine
R Trips (Ferrari), accident

Aggregate
1st Fangio (Maserati), 2:38'47.3", 106.71 kph
2nd Musso (Ferrari), 2:39'56.7"
3rd Menditéguy (Maserati), 1 lap down
4th Scarlatti/Behra (Maserati), 1 lap down
5th Bonnier (Maserati), 3 laps down
6th González (Ferrari_Chevrolet), 3 laps down

1960-02-14
Cordóba
75 laps (3.2 km)

1st Trintignant (Cooper_Climax), 76.12 mph
2nd Gurney (BRM)
3rd Munaron (Maserati), 70 laps
4th Chimeri (Maserati)
5th Bonnier (BRM), 53 laps

R 10 Cars

[Roger Clark]

In the 1954 race, bira was seventh (64 laps), Maglioli was 8th, Pian (Ford-Pian) ws ninth, Bayol/Loyer (Gordini) tenth. Hawthorn's spin was caused by a broken connecting rod which locked the rear wheels.

This was, of course, the race in which Enrico Plate was killed.

[Roger Clark]

1955 final classification, with heat positions in brackets


1st Fangio (#2 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 2:23'18.9", 118.23 kph (2,2)

2nd Moss (#6 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 2:23'30.8" (5,1)

3rd González/Trintignant (#12 Ferrari 2500), 2:23'53.1" (5,3)

4th Kling (#4 Mercedes-Benz 3000), 2:24'17.5" (4,6)

5th Behra (Maserati 2500), 2:24'41.2" (7,5)

6th Menditeguy (Maserati) 2. 25'39.6" (10,7)

7th Montovani/Schell (maserati) 2.25' 50.9" (11,-)

8th Musso/Montovani (Maserati) 2 25' 51.8"

9th Bucci (Ferrasri) 2.27' 28.2" (12,9)

10th Farina/Gonzales (Ferrari) 2.25' 35.5" (1,10)

11th Trintingnant/Maglioli (2.26'00.2") (8,12)

12th Pablo Birger (gordini)

13th Elie Bayol (Gordini)

14th Alberto Uria (Maserati)

15th Alfredo Pian/Jose Faraoni/Adolfo Schweim Cruz (Maserati)

16th Jesus Iglesias (Maserati)

17th Mieres (Maserati)


A complicated race!

[sat]

14.2.1960 17:00
XVI GP de la Ciudad Buenos Aires
Cordóba
75 lapsx x 3,400 km = 255 km
16 started, 5 finished
Grid 3_2_3
FL - McLaren 1:27,2
1. - 38 - Cooper -Climax - Maurice Trintignant F - R.R.C. Walker Racing team - (75) - 1:53:50,9 = 122,53 km/h //Pr. 2.
2. - 42 - BRM - Dan Gurney USA - Owen Racing Organisation - (75) - 1:54:38,5 // Pr. 4.
3. - 14 - Maserati 250F - Gino Munaron RA - Scuderia Madunina - (70) - 1:54:52,8
4. - Maserati 250F - Ettore Chimeri YV - Scuderia Madunina - (63) - 1:55:13,8
5. - BRM - Jo Bonnier S - Owen Racing Organisation - (53) - 1:54:03,0 // Pr. 3 retired
18 - Cooper-Climax - Jack Brabham AUS - Cooper Car Co. - water pump (when leading) // Pr. 1. - 1:27,3
16 - Cooper T -Climax - Bruce McLaren NZ - Cooper Car Co. - (from 3.) spun, cracked oil cooler
Lotus 18-Climax - Innes Ireland GB - Team Lotus - 0 laps half shaft
22 - Lotus 16-Climax - Alan Stacey / Innes Ireland - Team Lotus - 68 laps out of fuel
Cooper-Climax - Harry Schell USA - ?
Cooper-Maserati - Carlos Menditéguy RA - Scuderia Centro Sud - 30 laps (from 5.) gearbox // Pr. 5.
Maserati 250F - António Creus RA - António Creus - ?
Cooper-Maserati - Roberto Bonomi / Carlos Menditeguy - Scuderia Centro Sud - 63 laps (from 3.)gearbox
2 - Porsche-Behra - Masten Gregory USA - Camoradi - ?
Ferrari-Chevrolet Corvette V8 - José Froilán González RA - 13 laps engine
In entry list
DNS - Lotus 16-Climax - A. Rodriguez Laretta RA - half shaft in warm-up
DNA - Ferrari - José Froilán González RA - Scuderia Ferrari
DNA - Ferrari - X - Scuderia Ferrari (possibly more cars)
DNA - Cooper T -Maserati - Roy Salvadori GB - Cooper Car Co.
DNA - Cooper T -Climax - Stirling Moss GB - R.R.C. Walker Racing Team
DNA - Cooper T -Climax - Roberto Miéres RA - R.R.C. Walker Racing Team
DNA - Maserati 250F - X - Scuderia Centro Sud
DNA - Maserati 250F - X - Scuderia Centro Sud
In practice only
Porsche-Behra - Juan Manuel Fangio RA - Camoradi - 1:34,0
Maserati 250F - Juan Manuel Fangio RA - Scuderia Madunina (car of Chimeri) - accident saturday evening

[Boniver]

1954

Trintignant – Ferrari – Team Rosier
Maglioli – Ferrari
Daponte – accident – crass in pits kill Enrico Platé


1955
6. Menditeguy
7. Schell
8 Montivani

Lancia – Forfet

02-02-58 BA City
2 heats, 282.31 km

Heat 1
1st Hawthorn (Ferrari)
2nd Fangio (Maserati)

? Moss (Cooper_Climax)

R Kavanagh (Maserati
Mieres - Maserati Centro Sud
Iglesias - Chevrolet Sp

Heat 2
1st Fangio (Maserati)

R Hawthorn (Ferrari), engine
R Collins (Ferrari), engine
R Trips (Ferrari), accident
P.Hill - Ferrari

Aggregate
1st Fangio (Maserati), 2:38'47.3", 106.71 kph
2nd Musso (Ferrari), 2:39'56.7"
3rd Menditéguy / Godia (Maserati), 1 lap down
4th Scarlatti/Behra (Maserati Centro Sud , 1 lap
5th Bonnier / Godia (Maserati Centro Sud, 3 laps
6th González (Ferrari_Chevrolet), 3 laps down

14-02-60
Cordóba
75 laps (3.2 km)

1st Trintignant (Cooper_Climax Walker ), 76.12 mph
2nd Gurney (BRM)
3rd Munaron (Maserati), 70 laps
4th Chimeri (Maserati)
5th Bonnier (BRM), 53 laps

R 10 Cars

Brabham - Cooper
Gonzalez - Ferrari Chevrolet

Ferrari - Forfet

[Boniver]

? ?. ? ?.1958

Boa Vista – Brazilie – FL
68 miles

1. Fangio – Maserati
2. Munaron – Maserati
3. Machado – Maserati

[fines]

Thanks guys, you make my day!

[fines]

Originally posted by Boniver
? ?. ? ?.1958

Boa Vista – Brazilie – FL
68 miles

1. Fangio – Maserati
2. Munaron – Maserati
3. Machado – Maserati

I think this race was actually on Dec 8, 1957, and a sports car race at that.

[Roger Clark]

some more on the 1958 race:

The race was run on a slower track than the Argentine Grand Prix. In practice Phil Hill had his first experience of a Grnad Prix Ferrari.

Heat 1
1 Hawthorn 119'7.7" (66.535mph)
2 Fangio 1.19' 39.5"
3 Musso 1.19' 52.2"
4 Scarlatti/Behra 29 laps
5 godia/Menditeguy 29 laps
6 Gonzalez 29 laps.

Collins retired at the start with transmission (not engine) failure. moss retired on the first corner having been run into by Iglesias' Chevrolet special. Behra took over from Scarlatti after four laps, Menditeguy from godia after three. The stars arrived late for te start.

Heat 2
1 Fangio 1.19' 7.8" (66.533 mph0
2 Menditeguy 119'24.2"
3 Musso 1. 20' 4.5"
4 Behra 1 20' 54.92
5 bonnier 29 laps

Hawthorn retired at the start with broken drive shafts, the same as Collins in heat 1. Collins had sufferred the same problem at tte Grand Prix a couple of weeks earlier. Ferrari were using compponents designed for formula 2 cars from which the dinos had developed.

Overall
1 Fangio 2 38' 47.3"
2 Musso (Ferrari) 2 59' 56.7"
3 Menditeguy (Maserati) 59 laps
4 Scarlatti/Behra (Maserati) 57 laps
5 Bonnier (Maserati) 57 laps
6 Gonzalez (Ferrai-Chevrolet) 57 laps

Fastest lap Fangio (17th lap 2nd heat, 2' 34"

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by sat
14.2.1960 17:00
XVI GP de la Ciudad Buenos Aires
Cordóba
75 lapsx x 3,400 km = 255 km
16 started, 5 finished

Sat,

to start off, thank you very much. The results of this particular race have been quite a headache for me, and I appreciate very much seeing them printed ;)

Now, as it usually happens, there´s an element in this that has not been solved. Regarding his (due soon) biography of Mario Araujo de Cabral (see http://www.atlasf1.c...?threadid=7738) Adelino wrote last july : "About the Cordoba race, this is what I know:
Cabral went to Argentina to race in both Argentinian GP and the non-championship race at Cordoba. At the last minute Harry Shell took the Cooper-Climax (FII/17/59) that was destined to be driven by Cabral - «Mimo» Dei was always looking for the best deal and Cabral - son of a very wealthy but not race-friendly father - didn't have a penny to his name, so had to see the race from the paddock.
I too think the Cordoba race must have been a week after the GP, but if the GP race (7 February 1960) was at Sunday, then, if the cordoba race was a week after, I think the probable date is 14 February 1960 and not 13.
The race is (very) briefly discribed in Doug Nye's «Cooper Cars». Cabral remembers tooking place in the race, but not what happened (grid and results). So I still don't have complete confirmation"

So sat, can you please:
a) Tell me the source that you have used so that I can send the missing info to Adelino? and
b) Tell me if you think that the entry quoted in your list as Harry Schell-? might actually be Mr Cabral?

Not that I want to make an issue with Mr Cabral (if he says he remembers taking part on the race, I see no special reason -yet- to challenge that) but I will very much like to be able to confirm that...

Thanks a lot, anyway!

Felix

[sat]

Here's rest from final 1958:

7. - Chevrolet Special - Ramón Requejo - RA - 56 laps
8. - Ford Special - Marcos Galván - 55 laps
9. - Chevrolet Special - Danton Bazet - 54 laps
10. - Maserati-Chevrolet - Asdrúbal Fontes-Bayardo - 51 laps
11. - Maserati 250F - Horace Gould - GB - 40 laps
NC
#24 - Ferrari - Mike Hawtorn - GB - driveshaft
Ferrari - Peter Collins - GB - driveshaft
#26 - Ferrari - Wolfgang von Trips - D - accident
Maserati 250F - Roberto Bonomi - RA - gearbox
Maserati 250F - Ken Kavanagh - AUS - water pump
#18 - Cooper-Climax 2000 cc- Stirling Moss - GB - collision
Chevrolet Special - Jesús Iglesias - collision
In entry list
Maserati 250F - Roberto Miéres - RA - Scuderia Centro Sud

For F. Muellas:
my mainly sources are The Autocar and The Motor (in 50's and 60's are very good about motorsport, often have special correspondent in South America), probably also Automobil Revue (all it in Prague technical library). In last time also Internet (Q. Cloud, D.Galpin, TNF...). Sorry I can't help you with M.A. Cabral. I personally take the story as little doubtful as Schell car was Cooper-Climax and not Maserati (Dei's Centro Sud entry). Only start in 1960 I can find for Cabral in Cooper-Climax is in F2 race Prix de Paris (15.5.1960), in Portugal (Centro Sud) it was Cooper-Maserati.

[Roger Clark]

Felix, Autosport has a full report with starting grid. no mentionof Cabral

[Marcor]

In "Cooper cars" (Doug Nye) we can read it about the 1960 Buenos-Aires City GP:

Meanwhile they were contracted for a second race, the Buenos-Aires City GP, which to John (Cooper)'s horror they found was to be run in Cordoba, 500-miles up-country. Mike Barney: "when we saw the circuit we just couldn't believe it, round the city boulevards with trees at the kerbside and a huge statue slap in the middle of the road at one point. We asked the guide which side the cars were meant to go round it, and he just grinned and said, "Either side, ees up to da driver." John said, "Right boys, one race lap, collect the start money ad home." He didn't like it at all..."

Still Jack (Brabham) started from pole beside Trintignant, who was really at home on such a good old-fashioned road circuit, and in the race the works Cooper ran 1-2 until Bruce (McLaren) pressed too hard and clouted a hay bale, splitting the oil cooler. He stopped after 29 laps with temperatures sky-high, and on lap 40 Jack was out with vapour locks in the 100-degree ambient heat. Gurney's BRM led until its gearbox faltered and Trintignant won confortably for Rob Walker, despite an ailing clutch. In the pits - wooden benches set up between the kerbside trees - all eyes had been riveted on a local Maserati 250F, which careered past lap after lap with its dampers obviously totally shot. "It kept going by bouncing like a rubber ball at well over 100 mph," Mike Barney remembers", with the crowd packed five deep on either kerb with their toes in the gutter. We were all wound up tight waiting for the accident to happen... but it never did...".

[Rob29]

Cordoba race (1960) was 3 weeks after F1 GP. 1,000k/m Sports car race was held the middle week of Temporada.
I remember the Harry Schell Cooper was a blue & white one he bought himself,nothing to do with Sig.Dei's Scuderia Cento Sud which had Red Cooper Maseratis.

[Felix Muelas]

OK gentlemen, thanks a lot for all the info. If what you wanted was to leave me in a state of serious desorientation you are doing it perfectly

So we have the following scenario now :

a) Mr Araujo de Cabral remembers having taken part on the race (let me guess that, at least, he was physically present) but all his recollections seem to be schetchy. To start off, we don't even agree on a date (Sat, 14th Rob29 21st/28th?)

b) Whilst Cabral "recreates" a theory to explain how his "presence" in Argentina was frustrated as far as the first race is concerned, and involves Mimo Dei and Harry Schell in the story, Rob29 seems to imply that such story might be a figment of Mr Cabral's imagination. I do not have access right now to Cooper info and (apart of the decoration that I appreciate that kind of first-eye information) I wonder if the reference given by Cabral (FII-17-59) will clarify something...

As far as Cabral including Mimo Dei in his recollection, I think, with all due care, that we should give some credit to his words. What I mean is that his relation with the Scuderia was a long-lasting one, so no question of him simply to blame a one-time employer. Not that I imply with this that we must believe him against evidence (Autocar, as Roger mentions, Rob29's own recollection, the sources quoted by SAt) but you will all agree that if the man makes such a statement something might have happened...

So, as this particular moment, do you think I should approach Mr Cabral and tell him : Listen, Mario, all that story about the Cordoba race in 1960, are you sure you haven't dreamt it? Because it doesn't look like you raced there...;)

Thanks guys

Felix

[Barry Lake]

Felix
If you have the opportunity to speak to Mario Cabral about this, you should do so.
Remember the infamous International Trophy race at Silverstone in 1951? Tony Gaze had told me a number of times he raced in the final, how terrible the rain was, the lack of vision etc. Every magazine report, the Sheldon books, everything I had seen, said he was not in the race.
I always thought that perhaps he was thinking of something else. I didn't know how to approach him to suggest that perhaps his memory was incorrect.
Then, last time I visited him, in December, he showed me a photograph of the start. There he was, sure enough, starting in the race.
So you can't believe everything you see in print (as we all well know).
Sometimes people do invent things in their memory, but this one sounds like it needs investigating. If you have the opportunity, don't miss it.

[Felix Muelas]

Barry,

Thanks for the suggestion!;)
Now that I read your note -and how good the example of Tony Gaze is, tks- I see that it is the obvious thing to do, although I think what Adelino Dinis wanted me to do was to find confirmation of the fact "outside" Mario Cabral himself.
Could we, meanwhile, approach the Schell experts (Gil, for instance) in order to check on the accuracy of Harry's chances of being there with "a blue and white one (Cooper) he bought himself" -in Rob29's words?

Thanks
Felix

[sat]

So when I think about, I could imagine this scenario:
Mr. Dei had entered (as obvious with drivers TBA) for GP 3 cars - 2 Maseratis and 1 Cooper-Maserati, and promised poor Mr. Cabral and maybe someone else a start, then when found local paying drivers , make some story for non starters (BTW started 2? Cooper-Maseratis).

[fines]

Originally posted by Rob29
Cordoba race (1960) was 3 weeks after F1 GP. 1,000k/m Sports car race was held the middle week of Temporada.
I remember the Harry Schell Cooper was a blue & white one he bought himself,nothing to do with Sig.Dei's Scuderia Cento Sud which had Red Cooper Maseratis.

Usually the 1000 kms were in between the GP races, but not in 1960! Sports Car race on Jan 31, Argentinian GP on Feb 7 and Buenos Aires GP on Feb 14 (?). The reports of the latter two races appeared in (the bi-weekly) "Das Auto" from Feb 27, the usual lag for extra-European races!

[Rob29]

ooops,sorry fines your right.I should check my records before relying on memory.Autocourse 1960 confims your dates-Cordoba Feb 14.

[Felix Muelas]

Rob

Before I make a fool of myself, can you please confirm that your comment about H Schell's presence in the Cordoba race and the decoration of the Cooper is actually a duoble-checked information?

Because if it's not, and you are talking from memory alone, or from the 1960 season in general, part of my worries concerning the accuracy of the information given my Mr Cabral will vanish...as they have with the date!

Thanks

Felix Muelas

[Rob29]

Felix,you could be right. The blue,with white stripe,Cooper that first appeared at US GP Sebring and then at Argentine GP race#34.Entered by Ecurie Bleue ,which was the name Harry Schell's mother,Lucy O'Reilly Schell,used when she raced pre-war.D'ont know whether she or Harry or anyone else actually owned the Cooper. Also no longer have the Autosport report of the Cordoba race so ca'nt confirm it ,or Harry was there.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Rob29
Felix,you could be right. The blue,with white stripe,Cooper that first appeared at US GP Sebring and then at Argentine GP race#34.Entered by Ecurie Bleue ,which was the name Harry Schell's mother,Lucy O'Reilly Schell,used when she raced pre-war.D'ont know whether she or Harry or anyone else actually owned the Cooper. Also no longer have the Autosport report of the Cordoba race so ca'nt confirm it ,or Harry was there.

Autosport did have Schell as a starter, eigth fastest in practice, retired on 34th lap with engine trouble. No picture though

[David McKinney]

I have an entry-list for the 1955 BA GP which has Bucci in Ferrari No.32 and Faraoni in Maserati 48. Whilst some reports say Bucci drove a Ferrari in the race, others, which I believe are more accurate, say he raced works Maserati No.48. This would have left Faraoni to share a different Maserati, presumably an older car, with Pían and Schwelm Cruz. Can anyone confirm my supposition? Fines?
Also, until this thread I had never seen Scuderia Madunina mentioned as entrant for two Maseratis in the 1960 race. My information is that Chimeri was entered by Scuderia Sorocaima and I have seen (relatively recent) correspondence with Munaron saying his entry was in his own name. Scuderia Madunina was very active in Formula Junior at this time, but it is surprising to see their name at this level. The famous angelfire/krejcimar website does however note entries in the 1957 BA 1000km sportscar race in the name of Scuderia Madunina Brasil. Can ‘sat’ give a source for the Madunina name in the 1960 BA GP entry? And does anyone know what connection, if any, there was between the Italian and Brazilian teams?
And, BTW, Munaron was (and I believe still is) Italian, not Argentinian

[Roger Clark]

This is from Autocourse June 1955. The caption says that Iglesias is in the first car, Bucci in the second. Autosport also says that Bucci drove a Ferrari.

[quintin cloud]

hi guys

I have the following result for the 1957 event , can
somebody fill in the missing data ?

1957 Buenos Aires City GP
27 January - B.A. Autodrome: 137.087 km 2(4.570 km x 30 Laps)


Fastest Lap: Peter Collins (Lancia-Ferrari D50A), 2:19.6, 75.43mph
Pole Position: Juan Manuel Fangio (Maserati 250F)

Results:

Heat 1
1 Juan Manuel Fangio Maserati 250F '2529' 1h10m59.0, 74.31mph
2 Jean Behra Maserati 250F '2528' 1h11m24.6
3 Eugenio Castellotti Lancia-Ferrari D50A '0005' 1h11m39.2
4 Mike Hawthorn Lancia-Ferrari D50A '0010' 1h12m18.8
5 Luigi Musso Lancia-Ferrari D50A '0008' 1h12m36.6
6 Carlos Menditéguy Maserati 250F '2524' 1h13m02.4

Fastest Lap: Juan Manuel Fangio (Maserati 250F), 2:19.6, 75.43mph
Pole Position: Juan Manuel Fangio, 2:17.9


Heat 2
1 Peter Collins Lancia-Ferrari D50A '0009' 1h11m10.6, 73.79mph
2 Jean Behra Maserati 250F '2528' 1h11m30.2
3 Juan Manuel Fangio Maserati 250F '2529' 1h11m31.3
4 Mike Hawthorn Lancia-Ferrari D50A '0010' 1h12m17.0
5 Cesare Perdisa Lancia-Ferrari D50A '0001' 1h12m52.3
6 Carlos Menditéguy/Stirling Moss Maserati 250F '2524' 1h12m58.4

[Roger Clark]

Heat 1

7 collins/Gregory (Ferrari)
8 Perdisa (Ferrari)
9 Von Trips/Collins (Ferrari)
10 De tomaso/Piotti (Maserati)
11 Sticoni (Ferrari)
12 Moss (Maserati)
13 Schell (Maserati0
14 gonzalez (Ferrari)
15 Scarlatti (Maserati)

Heat 2

7 Castellotti/Musso (Ferrari)
8 Von Trips (Ferrari)
9 Schell (Maserati)
10 De tomaso/Piotti (Maserati)

Overall

1 Fangio (Maserati)
2 Behra (Maserati)
3 Collins/Gregory (Ferrari)
4 Hawthorn (Ferrari)
5 Castellotti/musso (Ferrari)
6 Menditeguy/moss (Maserati)
7 Perdisa (Ferrari)
8 von Trips/collins (Ferrari)
9 deTomaso/Piotti (Maserati)
10 Schell (Maserati)

fangio set fastest lap jointly with collins

[quintin cloud]

thanks roger

I've been looking in some old records and I see that there
was some there races that happened at the Buesnos Aires
track ,

8 Jan 1950 Eva Poren Cup
15 Jan 1950 Grand Prix Mar del Plata (might not be Buesnos Aires)
22 Jan 1950 Grand Prix Rosario (might not be Buesnos Aires)

18 Feb 1951 General Peron GP
25 Feb 1951 Eva Peron Cup

9 Mar 1952 Buesnos Aires Grand Prix 1
16 Mar 1952 Buesnos Aires Grand Prix 2

1 Feb 1953 Buesnos Aires Grand Prix

Can anybody tell me something about the races (results??)

[Felix Muelas]

I just thought that it might be a good idea to more or less "group" the Temporada-related threads...

Felix

[Vitesse2]

Okay - here's one to puzzle over. As I've posted elsewhere, Motor Sport called the 1941 BA GP the second race. Tabulated below are all the BA races I've found - in Motor Sport, Tony Kaye's listings, Sheldon and here. I have only two other sources for numbers of the races - Sheldon and sat. Sat has 1960 as the sixteenth race - this only works if you ignore 1941 and include all the races which Tony records purely as Eva Peron GPs. Sheldon lists 1957-8 as eleven and twelve but his numbers only work if you include 1941 but not the Eva Peron races. Have I missed any races? The list includes the circuit and winner for each year. And was Motor Sport right? Was there an earlier race, or were they merely confused as they thought they were reporting a race in January 1942 rather than November 1941?

23/11/41 Retiro Jose Canziano
9/2/47 Retiro Luigi Villoresi
16/2/47 Retiro Luigi Villoresi
17-18/2/48 Palermo Luigi Villoresi
30/1/49 Palermo Alberto Ascari
(6/2/49 Palermo Oscar Galvez) GP Eva Peron
18/12/49 Palermo Alberto Ascari
(8/1/50 Palermo Luigi Villoresi) GP Eva Peron
18/2/51 Costanera Froilan Gonzalez
(25/2/51 Costanera Froilan Gonzalez) GP Eva Peron
9/3/52 Autodrome Juan Fangio
(16/3/52 Autodrome Juan Fangio) GP Eva Peron
30/1/54 Autodrome Maurice Trintignant
31/1/55 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XI 27/1/57 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XII 2/2/58 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XVI 14/2/60 Cordoba Maurice Trintignant

[David McKinney]

The Peron Cup races were often called BA GPs in the European press, Richard - whether that was laziness or a reflection of the official name I do not know.
There was definitely a 1956 BA GP, albeit held at Mendoza.
IIRC there was also a 1959 race, though not of international status, and a 1953 edition too.
And there was at least one BA GP in the 1930s, and I think another or others before that.
Haven't got time to check an any of this now, but will post again within the next 24hrs or so.

[Rob29]

'Peron Cup' also seems to be a lazy translation of the local title. A better one might be 'Evita GP' The 1956 Mendoza race I have also seen referred to as Buenos Aires GP. One story was that the title had been registered with the FIA having originally been intended to be run at the autodrome and could not be changed. Which raises the question what is the proper name of a race? The one listed on the international racing calendar,or that used by organizers on posters ,programmes,etc.

[Barry Boor]

I know this is marginally O.T, but does anyone have a track map of Cordoba?

I sense another slot-race in the offing!

Darren Galpin's site doesn't - so I don't know where else to look.....

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Rob29
Which raises the question what is the proper name of a race? The one listed on the international racing calendar,or that used by organizers on posters ,programmes,etc.

My guess would be that the 1956 Mendoza race, like the 1960 Cordoba one, was called the Buenos Aires GP by the FIA and by the organisers. Or the Gran Premio Cuidad de Buenos Aires if you like

[Vitesse2]

I was trying to avoid the confusion over the Peron Cups but to no avail. The races on 17-18/1/48, 30/1/49, 18/12/49, 18/2/51, 9/2/52 are titled the Gran Premio del General Juan Peron y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires. I thought I'd already highlighted all the Eva Peron GPs, but on checking Monkhouse, I found what may or may not be another - see below for additions from Monkhouse and a corrected typo in red. Just to add to the confusion he lists the 18/12/49 race as 1950

However, the list below now makes more sense if the Eva Peron races are omitted - providing there was a 1959 race sat's number 16 now ties in with Motor Sport's 1942 statement that the race on 23/11/41 was the second BA GP

I 19??
II 23/11/41 Retiro Jose Canziano
III 9/2/47 Retiro Luigi Villoresi
IV 16/2/47 Retiro Luigi Villoresi
V 17-18/1/48 Palermo Luigi Villoresi
1948 Palermo Luigi Villoresi GP Eva Peron? TK lists this as the GP Dalmiro Varela Castex on 14/2/48
VI 30/1/49 Palermo Alberto Ascari
(6/2/49 Palermo Oscar Galvez) GP Eva Peron
VII 18/12/49 Palermo Alberto Ascari
(8/1/50 Palermo Luigi Villoresi) GP Eva Peron
VIII 18/2/51 Costanera Froilan Gonzalez
(25/2/51 Costanera Froilan Gonzalez) GP Eva Peron
IX 9/3/52 Autodrome Juan Fangio
(16/3/52 Autodrome Juan Fangio) GP Eva Peron
X 30/1/54 Autodrome Maurice Trintignant
XI 31/1/55 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XII 1956 Mendoza Juan Fangio
XIII 27/1/57 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XIV 2/2/58 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XV 1959 ?
XVI 14/2/60 Cordoba Maurice Trintignant

[David McKinney]

1956 Mendoza (not Cordoba)

[David McKinney]

Additional claimants:
15/12/29 Chivilcoy (GP Província de BA) : Raúl Riganti
12/1/30 unknown venue: Juan Malcolm
5/6/32 Avenida Costanera (Premio Ciudad de BA) : Domingo Bucci
17/10/36 Costanera Sur (1st GP Ciudad BA) : Carlos Arzani
1/2/53 Autodromo: Giuseppe Farina
5/2/56 Mendoza: J M Fangio
1/3/59 Autodromo: Jésus Iglésias
Taking everything into consideration, it seems the series started with the 1936 race, then the 1941, then the postwar series

[Vitesse2]

Okay, we seem to have three groups here - firstly the GP Ciudad BA, which was also known as the Juan Peron Cup from 1948 to 1952 inclusive. I had overlooked the 1953 race (thanks David!), so I've removed 1959 to the national list below.

I 17/10/36 Costanera Sur Carlos Arzani
II 23/11/41 Retiro Jose Canziano
III 9/2/47 Retiro Luigi Villoresi
IV 16/2/47 Retiro Luigi Villoresi
V 17-18/1/48 Palermo Luigi Villoresi
VI 30/1/49 Palermo Alberto Ascari
VII 18/12/49 Palermo Alberto Ascari
VIII 18/2/51 Costanera Froilan Gonzalez
IX 9/3/52 Autodrome Juan Fangio
X 1/2/53 Aurodrome Giuseppe Farina
XI 30/1/54 Autodrome Maurice Trintignant
XII 31/1/55 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XIII 5/2/56 Mendoza Juan Fangio
XIV 27/1/57 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XV 2/2/58 Autodrome Juan Fangio
XVI 14/2/60 Cordoba Maurice Trintignant

Secondly the Eva Peron GPs, the first of which may be "dubious":
11/2/48 Palermo Luigi Villoresi GP - TK lists this as the GP Dalmiro Varela Castex
6/2/49 Palermo Oscar Galvez
8/1/50 Palermo Luigi Villoresi
25/2/51 Costanera Froilan Gonzalez
16/3/52 Autodrome Juan Fangio

Thirdly an assortment of probably national races with Buenos Aires in the name:
15/12/29 Chivilcoy (GP Província de BA) : Raúl Riganti
12/1/30 unknown venue: Juan Malcolm
5/6/32 Avenida Costanera (Premio Ciudad de BA) : Domingo Bucci
1/3/59 Autodromo: Jésus Iglésias

[David McKinney]

I'm sure the 1959 race should be included in the main list
If not you can't really pretend it was a national, as many non-Argentine drivers took part

[Vitesse2]

Motor Sport March 1960 p 151:

In 1959 the series of Argentine races that normally open the racing season were missed ...

Okay, Motor Sport isn't necessarilythe best source for this, but they don't include the 59 race in their International Results roundup either. You say there was foreign participation David - are we talking just Brazilians and Uruguayans here, or were there European drivers as well?

[David McKinney]

Motor Sport was right to say the 1959 races were missed - as in missed by the European circus.
There were no European participants in the BA GP that year, but several from Uruguay and Brazil. So the race was international in the strict sense that it was contested 'between nations', but not perhaps in the sense we usually take the word to mean in the motor racing context.

[Rob29]

This is from memory as I no longer have the evidence,but I seem to remember that the 1959 Temporada was covered briefly by Autocourse/Sporting Motorist magazine. There were pictures of Maserati 250Fs fitted with big American V8s.

[David McKinney]

Yes and no, Rob
The magazine report with the V8 250Fs was later - 1961 or 1962
There were no 250Fs in the 1959 series, unless you count a Chevy-powered A6GCM which had previously raced with a 250F engine.

[Milan Fistonic]

The December 1959 Sporting Motorist has an article on the sport in the Argentine by Pierre Vilebrequin. It covers two race meetings, the Pan-American Highway race and the Rafaela 500 mile race. Gonzalez had the 4.6-litre Corvette powered Ferrari and Luis Brosutti drove a Maserati 4CLT fitted with a V8 Studebaker engine. Brosutti had won the Rafaela event twice in 1938 and 1948.

The February 1960 edition has a report on the XXX Gan premio Argentino de Carretera won by R. Alzaga driving a Ford.

The July 1960 edition has a report headed Campeonata Triangular which covers the last two of three races to decide the South American Championship. The first race had been held in Interlagos, Sao Paulo, Brazil and was won by Brazilian Ciro Cayres driving a 250F Maserati powered by a Corvette engine.
Gonzalez won the final two races to take the title. There are photos of Gonzalez's Ferrari, the 12-cylinder Maserati 250F now powred by a Corvette V8 engine and two other V8-engined 250Fs driven by Ciro Cayres and Luis Margarido. There is also a picture of another Ferrari-Corvette driven by Alberico Passadore.

[RDV]

Slightly OT ,any info on the Interlagos 7th dec 57 race which Fangio won in the 250F?

[David McKinney]

Milan,
Thanks for straightening me out on that

RDV
I think this one has cropped up before. I know at least one English mag had it as an open-wheeler event, but it was in fact a sportscar race, and Fangio won in a 300S.

[TonyKaye]

Felix,
Whatever became of your meeting with Mr. Cabral?

In common with everyone else on this thread I don't believe that he took part in the 1960 race. He may have been there as a spectator or even scrounging for a ride, but there is no record of him either in the race or in timed practice. For what it's worth, here is the complete list of practice times:

1. Brabham 1 27.3
2. Trintignant 1 27.9
3. Bonnier 1 28.2
4. Van Curnier (!) 1 28.6
5. Menditeguy 1 29.1
6. Ireland 1 29.2
7. Mclaren 1 29.3
8. Enrique (!) Rodriguez 1 29.7
9. Schell 1 30.7
10. Stacey 1 33.6
11. Scarlatti 1 34.3
12. Munaron 1 34.5
13. Gregory 1 34.6
14. Bonomi 1 36.1
15 Gonzalez 1 36.1
16 Cabalen 1 36.3
17 Chimeri 1 36.6
18 Esteffano 1 42.2

I am not familiar with a couple ofl the backmarkers, but there is no reason to believe that Cabalen is a typo for Cabral as his first name was Oscar. Nor is it likely that he made fourth best time disguised as Dan Gurney.

[dretceterini]

I thought that there were more races in BA pre-war....maybe I'm mistaken, but weren't there also some sports car races?

Stu

[David McKinney]

There were sportscar races at Buenos Aires in the late 1920s, but I haven't heard of any after that. Just because a Mercedes SSK won races doesn't mean they were sportscar events! There were also Turismo Carretera races and events for the local equivalent of a voiturette class which IIRC meant cars with four-cylinder engines (usually Model T or Model A Ford)

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by TonyKaye
Felix,
Whatever became of your meeting with Mr. Cabral?

Tony

a) No meeting with Mr Cabral, I'm afraid. I have been punished, I guess, and not even a copy of his biography has reached me!

b) Recently I have been in direct contact with Córdoba-resident aficionados in relation to that 1960 race. No mention of Cabral, let's assume he went there as a spectator.

c) As a result of the direct inspection of the local newspapers, your (somehow scary) list of times can be substituted by these ones:

Friday times:
1_I.Ireland (Lotus) 1´29´´ 7/10
2_M.Trigtignant(Cooper Climax) 1´29´´ 9/10
3_Jorge R Larreta (Lotus) 1´32´´ 0/10
4_Alan Stacey (Lotus) 1´34´´ 3/10
5_Roberto Bonomi (Cooper Maserati) 1´35´´ 4/10
6_Carlos Menditeguy (Cooper Maserati) 1´35´´ 6/10
7_Oscar Cabalen (Maserati) 1´35´´ 7/10
8_Ettore Chimeri (Maserati) 1´37´´ 4/10
9_Harry Shell (Cooper Climax) 1´37´´ 6/10
10_Giorgio Scarlatti (Maserati) 1´39´´ 9/10
11_Jose Froilan Gonzalez (Maserati) 1´41´´ 0/10

(mentions to the Maseratis in the cases of both Oscar Cabalén and Jose Froilán Gonzalez leads to believe that not only Fangio made the guess appearances at the wheel of both the Chimeri 250F and the Camoradi Behra-Porsche, but also these two drove Maseratis. My guess is that Cabalen drove Creus' car...and did not like it! Another option is that he drove Munaron's...)

Then came Saturday, and these were the times

1_ 18 J Brahbam 1´27´´ 3 /10 Cooper Climax
2_ 38 M Trigtinant 1´27´´ 9 Copper Climax
3_ 42 J Bonnier 1´28´´ 2 BRM
4_ 40 D Gurney 1´28´´6 BRM
5_ 6 C Menditeguy 1´29´´1 Cooper Maserati
6_ 20 I Ireland 1´29´´2 Lotus
7_ 16 B McLaren 1´29´´5 Cooper Climax
8_ 46 AR Larreta 1´29´´7 Lotus
9_ 34 H Shell 1´30´´7 Cooper Climax
10_ 22 A Stacey 1´33´´6 Lotus
11_ 8 G Scarlatti 1´34´´3 Maserati
12_ 14 G Munaron 1´34´´5 Maserati
13_ 2 M Gregory 1´34´´6 Porsche
14_ 4 R Bonomi 1´36´´1 Cooper Maserati
15_ 49 JF Gonzalez 1´36´´1 Corvette
16_ 12 O Cabalen 1´36´´3 Maserati
17_ 44 E Chimeri 1´36´´6 Maserati
18_ 10 N Stefano 1´42´´2 Maserati


Notes:
-Rodriguez Larreta seems to be called both Jorge and A (for Alberto). Any of the three options (the third being that his real name could be Jorge Alberto) is feasible.

-Note the curious number 49 in Jose Froilan Gonzalez. That "Corvette" -and a second one that Oscar Cabalen (THE local hero) drove in the race- are actually two "Mecánica Nacional" cars, the Chevrolet-Waynes...

-Even in local newspapers, another local hero as Nasif Moisés Estéfano would have his opportunity to get his spelling wrong...

Two images to make this a bit more digestive :



and this one is...well, have fun !



fm