1331 replies to this topic

[Hephaistos]

Could anybody tells me what the rules say about flexi wings? Are they allowed to scrap the ground like this ?

[BigCHrome]

Could anybody tells me what the rules say about flexi wings? Are they allowed to scrap the ground like this ?

The rules say that.....no part of the car should be designed to flex.

[OO7]

The rules say that.....no part of the car should be designed to flex.

I agree that the RBR wing does breach the regulations and I said so much last year. The teams know about this and its up to them to develop similar systems.

[Hephaistos]

The rules say that.....no part of the car should be designed to flex.

Thank you. So if the rules say that, how on earth do they let that RB7 run?I'm sure we wouldn't be that far off if the flexi wing was taken off. I'm not an engineer but it must bring a significant amount of downforce.

Edited by Hephaistos, 26 March 2011 - 09:14.

[BigCHrome]

Thank you. So if the rules say that, how on earth do they let that RB7 run?I'm sure we wouldn't be that far off if the flexi wing was taken off. I'm not an engineer but it must bring a significant amount of downforce.

Manipulation of the flexing tests.

[Darth Sidious]

I agree that the RBR wing does breach the regulations and I said so much last year. The teams know about this and its up to them to develop similar systems.

So if the rules say no part of the car should be designed to flex, then yor saying that all the teams must now learn how to design flex into their wings to catch up with Red Bull? So they have to break the rules to catch up with what you see as a rulebreaker, rather then the rulebreaker being reined in?

[NoDivergence]

I think Redbull is worried their wing will drag/contact to the point where it can be damaged seriously. This might be interesting

[peroa]

http://twitpic.com/4df5oz
http://twitpic.com/4dfbx3

Form Darren Heath's twitter, same place, same speed.

Lots of work to do, because IMHO this is key, not the blowing of the rearend.

[pingualoty]

http://twitpic.com/4df5oz
http://twitpic.com/4dfbx3

Form Darren Heath's twitter, same place, same speed.

Lots of work to do, because IMHO this is key, not the blowing of the rearend.

That is painful to see, but still legal

I would love someone to go up to the head of scrutineering or whoever checks the rules and deflections and see him say "it passes the test it's legal". It;s funny but hey it is F1.

[f1rules]

its blatantly obvious that red bull is exploiting the rules, not cheating, just exploiting, and i agree, that frontwing bend is the way forward. Will be interesting to see what happens. I can imagine ferrari starting to be a little louder in their critics of this after their poor showing

Edited by f1rules, 26 March 2011 - 09:36.

[Ross Stonefeld]

To be fair to those photos, it looks like Vettel may be braking while Button is still accelerating. That would explain the dip at the front. Notice that Vettel's rear wing is shut and Button's is open, and Button appears a little further behind in the photo. So perhaps Vettel is right at the start of braking.

[Mc_Silver]

OMG this is another level of flexing. Whole FW flexes

[primer]

As long as the car pases FIA scrutiny, what can be done...

[DanardiF1]

To be fair to those photos, it looks like Vettel may be braking while Button is still accelerating. That would explain the dip at the front. Notice that Vettel's rear wing is shut and Button's is open, and Button appears a little further behind in the photo. So perhaps Vettel is right at the start of braking.

How do you explain this one then?

It's clearly in breach of regulations, unfortunately the tests that 'enforce' these are being manipulated by Red Bull. It is the blatant nature of it that is most... vexing.

[Mc_Silver]

How do you explain this one then?

It's clearly in breach of regulations, unfortunately the tests that 'enforce' these are being manipulated by Red Bull. It is the blatant nature of it that is most... vexing.

FIA

[Ross Stonefeld]

How do you explain this one then?

That's an excellent one

[rdebourbon]

To be fair to those photos, it looks like Vettel may be braking while Button is still accelerating. That would explain the dip at the front. Notice that Vettel's rear wing is shut and Button's is open, and Button appears a little further behind in the photo. So perhaps Vettel is right at the start of braking.

Yeah, the central section of the RedBull Front Wing is lower than the same section on the McLaren, this puts the whole wing lower, before you factor in flex..

The other thing that stands out for me is the closeness of the "bib" to the ground on the RedBull... To me, it looks like RBR have enhanced their ability to run a higher rake than anyone else, that alone gets the FW closer to the ground... Flexing is not the only way to get the FW lower.. If RedBull have a higher rake, and softer suspension it could simply be generated downforce pushing the entire front of the car lower.. Brundle and Coulthard did say that McLaren were quite stiff in the suspension area..

[OO7]

So if the rules say no part of the car should be designed to flex, then yor saying that all the teams must now learn how to design flex into their wings to catch up with Red Bull? So they have to break the rules to catch up with what you see as a rulebreaker, rather then the rulebreaker being reined in?

The rulebreakers should be reined in, new load tests were introduced and made no difference so it difficult for the F.I.A to police. Other teams know what the situation is, so are going to have to develop their own flexi wings and should have been doing so from last year.

[primer]

Why are all the photos so underexposed.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because it's dark?

[DanardiF1]

What other teams need to do is create a wing that clearly flexes... even if it is just for one run and has no benefit on the car. They should then ask the FIA what they think of it, and if they are told that it is not allowed, they should argue that the Red Bull wing behaves the same way.

Visual evidence should be a major part of enforcing rules relating to aerodynamic parts, as these areas of the car will always behave differently on track to a scrutineer's garage.

[Francesc]

And why you all notice it just now?

The wing has been like this the whole pre season.

[ivand911]

As long as the car pases FIA scrutiny, what can be done...

Easy solution, skid blocks at the ends of the wing. How they will flex after this?

[OO7]

Yeah, the central section of the RedBull Front Wing is lower than the same section on the McLaren, this puts the whole wing lower, before you factor in flex..

The other thing that stands out for me is the closeness of the "bib" to the ground on the RedBull... To me, it looks like RBR have enhanced their ability to run a higher rake than anyone else, that alone gets the FW closer to the ground... Flexing is not the only way to get the FW lower.. If RedBull have a higher rake, and softer suspension it could simply be generated downforce pushing the entire front of the car lower.. Brundle and Coulthard did say that McLaren were quite stiff in the suspension area..

just like they were doing in 2010.

[DanardiF1]

Yeah, the central section of the RedBull Front Wing is lower than the same section on the McLaren, this puts the whole wing lower, before you factor in flex..

The other thing that stands out for me is the closeness of the "bib" to the ground on the RedBull... To me, it looks like RBR have enhanced their ability to run a higher rake than anyone else, that alone gets the FW closer to the ground... Flexing is not the only way to get the FW lower.. If RedBull have a higher rake, and softer suspension it could simply be generated downforce pushing the entire front of the car lower.. Brundle and Coulthard did say that McLaren were quite stiff in the suspension area..

The central section is lower yes, but the major difference is the visual bowed nature of the wings themselves. They are visibly sagging in order to make the endplates reach the ground.

[rdebourbon]

Easy solution, skid blocks at the ends of the wing. How they will flex after this?

A skid block is only effective if something is actually "rubbing".. Do we know for sure that the RBR front wing touches the ground, or is it simply a matter that it gets close to the ground..

<conspiracy theory>
Did RBR give Vettel (the implicit #1) the ultra flexi front wing, and leave Webber (implicit defacto #2) on the semi flexi wing?
</conspiracy theory>

[jeze]

Red Bull is a cheat once again, and should get a race ban and a complete overhaul. If this ain't putting the sport into disrepute, then tell me, what is?

[jimjimjeroo]

Would be interesting to see a comparison of the suspension geometry stationary and under load maybe the wings not flexing maybe the nose is lower

[f1rules]

Yeah, the central section of the RedBull Front Wing is lower than the same section on the McLaren, this puts the whole wing lower, before you factor in flex..

The other thing that stands out for me is the closeness of the "bib" to the ground on the RedBull... To me, it looks like RBR have enhanced their ability to run a higher rake than anyone else, that alone gets the FW closer to the ground... Flexing is not the only way to get the FW lower.. If RedBull have a higher rake, and softer suspension it could simply be generated downforce pushing the entire front of the car lower.. Brundle and Coulthard did say that McLaren were quite stiff in the suspension area..

yes that can explain some, problem is you can see how much the outer edges flexes compared to the center part of the wing, that is only possible due to flex

[jimjimjeroo]

A skid block is only effective if something is actually "rubbing".. Do we know for sure that the RBR front wing touches the ground, or is it simply a matter that it gets close to the ground..

<conspiracy theory>
Did RBR give Vettel (the implicit #1) the ultra flexi front wing, and leave Webber (implicit defacto #2) on the semi flexi wing? ;)
</conspiracy theory>

When the cars lined up at the end of Q3 I saw MW taking a close look at the front wing on SVs Red Bull lol

[DrF]

Does Webber have the same front wing as Vettel?

[ivand911]

A skid block is only effective if something is actually "rubbing".. Do we know for sure that the RBR front wing touches the ground, or is it simply a matter that it gets close to the ground..

<conspiracy theory>
Did RBR give Vettel (the implicit #1) the ultra flexi front wing, and leave Webber (implicit defacto #2) on the semi flexi wing? ;)
</conspiracy theory>

When they have this tiny aerodynamically skid blocks they will make sure, they(skid blocks) not to touch the ground and end of flexing. If they touch the ground we will see nice sparks.

Edited by ivand911, 26 March 2011 - 10:11.

[rdebourbon]

The central section is lower yes, but the major difference is the visual bowed nature of the wings themselves. They are visibly sagging in order to make the endplates reach the ground.

Oh I do agree that the wings are sagging.. probably more than the other wings on the grid..

But I also think there is much more to it than just the wing flex.. the entire car has more rake, that implies something else has to be at work or else they would fall foul of the skid block tests... McLaren run a stiffer suspension, which automatically means to get their wing to the same positions, they either need to a) lower the entire wing via a sharper rake b) flex MUCH more than it currently does...

Both options a) and b) have regulations (skid block & load tests) "preventing" the other teams from running their cars in a fashion that would allow them to have their front wings in similar positions to RBR..

There is much more to this than just front wing flex.. theres a design philosophy / mechanism throughout the whole car that the others have missed.. I want to know how RBR run so much rake - they clearly run with more than the other teams, but one would expect that lifting the rear so much would cause the diffuser to lose efficiency.. Somehow RBR keep the efficiency of their diffuser despite increased rake.. (is this why they guard the rear so closely?)

[rdebourbon]

When the cars lined up at the end of Q3 I saw MW taking a close look at the front wing on SVs Red Bull lol

I saw it too, hence my conspiracy theory comment ;)

[DrF]

Please, keep whining about the front wing and ignore the rest of the car.

[DanardiF1]

Red Bull is a cheat once again, and should get a race ban and a complete overhaul. If this ain't putting the sport into disrepute, then tell me, what is?

Sour grapes much!?!

Ferrari tried using a flexi-wing in hungary last year, were they cheating too?

[Atic Atac]

Easy solution, skid blocks at the ends of the wing. How they will flex after this?

I think that´s an excellent solution. If you use a plank on the underbody, why not use something similar in the front wing to enforce the rule?

[HoldenRT]

Redbulls wings are allowed to flex because Redbull are awesome.

edit - If it wasn't for this front wing flex Redbull would be in p18 with Lotus.

The only reason they have a had a good car since 2009 is because they started making flexing wings in 2009.

You get the idea..

Edited by HoldenRT, 26 March 2011 - 10:23.

[BenettonB192]

I layed the profile of each wing over each other, only adjusted for size since the photos were taken at different distances. The Red Bull wing (blue) doesn't flex any more than the McLarens. The only difference is that RB is able to run their front wing much lower to the ground in general.

Edited by BenettonB192, 26 March 2011 - 10:24.

[ClubmanGT]

I layed the profile of each wing over each other, only adjusted for size since the photos were taken at different distances. The Red Bull wing (blue) doesn't flex any more than the McLarens. The only difference is that RB is able to run their front wing much lower to the ground in general.

This is bad and you should feel bad for doing this. The RBR picture is taken from a lower angle, and would actually favour the RBR wing when you look at the gap under it, as it would appear higher than the McLaren's, which you are looking more down on. Like Sebastian Vettel says "perspective, dancing to our own rythym, buy low, sell high, etc".

[BenettonB192]

This is bad and you should feel bad for doing this. The RBR picture is taken from a lower angle, and would actually favour the RBR wing when you look at the gap under it, as it would appear higher than the McLaren's, which you are looking more down on. Like Sebastian Vettel says "perspective, dancing to our own rythym, buy low, sell high, etc".

What has the perspective to do with it. This is essentialy a 2-dimensional comparison only of the wing edge. If there was flexing on the RB front wing the ends would bend down compared to the McLaren. Instead they look exactly like they have the same stiffness.

[Brandz07]

What has the perspective to do with it. This is essentialy a 2-dimensional comparison only of the wing edge. If there was flexing on the RB front wing the ends would bend down compared to the McLaren. Instead they look exactly like they have the same stiffness.

perspective and different angles will show the curves differently in a 2d way as well

[sosidge]

Red Bull are building better cars than McLaren. Deal with it.

Edited by sosidge, 26 March 2011 - 10:38.

[BenettonB192]

yea if you make a picture from above or behind the car but not when both shots are from nearly the same angle

[PassWind]

I think that´s an excellent solution. If you use a plank on the underbody, why not use something similar in the front wing to enforce the rule?

Because it would kill people

Excellent demonstration of complete lack of thought

[Guizotia]

Red Bull are building better cars than McLaren. Deal with it.

I don't mind them building better cars.

I mind them building much better cars.

I hate it when cars are so much better they can win purely through technological advantage (I mean when they might have great drivers, but probably could still win with worse drivers). It's so dull.

[Ross Stonefeld]

How the hell would that kill people?


I wonder if the FIA couldn't somehow develop tiny ride height sensors and place them on either edge of the front wing and the center section. That way they'd be able to measure flex and height. The technology of that may be impractical these days though, given that laser measurements are a bit bulky still.

[DanardiF1]

I don't mind them building better cars.

I mind them building much better cars.

I hate it when cars are so much better they can win purely through technological advantage (I mean when they might have great drivers, but probably could still win with worse drivers). It's so dull.

A visibly illegal technological advantage...

[rhukkas]

I don't mind them building better cars.

I mind them building much better cars.

I hate it when cars are so much better they can win purely through technological advantage (I mean when they might have great drivers, but probably could still win with worse drivers). It's so dull.

I suggest you stop watching F1 because it's always been a mix of pants drivers in good cars, as well as good drivers in pants cars.

[sosidge]

I don't mind them building better cars.

I mind them building much better cars.

I hate it when cars are so much better they can win purely through technological advantage (I mean when they might have great drivers, but probably could still win with worse drivers). It's so dull.

It's only dull because it's not your team.