Jump to content


Photo

Is Vettel in the same class with Hamilton & Alonso? [merged]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1459 replies to this topic

Poll: Is Vettel in the same class with Hamilton & Alonso? (761 member(s) have cast votes)

Is Vettel in the same class with Hamilton & Alonso?

  1. Yes he is in the same class (368 votes [48.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.36%

  2. No he isn't in the same class (393 votes [51.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.64%

Vote

#601 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,766 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:53

These is the best post. That shows, why Vettel isn't even on Buttons level. I would say that there are 6-7 drivers on the grid, that wouldn't have needed Alonso to make a mistake in the final race, in other to win the WDC with the RB6.


As much as I disagree with flyer121, this is really unfair post towards Vettel. Vettel did no more mistakes last season than Hamilton or Alonso did, he outpaced Mark in most of the races and reliability issues were the only thing preventing him from securing WDC much before last race.

Alonso fans, Hamilton fans and Vettel fans have to admit that last season none of those guys did a perfect job (remember some MS years how he could drive on fairly high level for 6-7 races in a row?), and they were all evenly matched. Button was on somewhat lower level than those three and Webber even on lower level.

Edited by velgajski1, 01 April 2011 - 10:55.


Advertisement

#602 stuck-in-first-gear

stuck-in-first-gear
  • Member

  • 1,877 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:09

It seems rather likely that Seb will rack up some serious stats in the next couple of years, if he keeps to develop and also has a bit of luck on his side. Factors such as age, willingness to improve, current drive and team support all work in his favour for the moment.

Sooner or later he will probably replace Alonso at Ferrari for a new challenge, don't think we will see them together at the Scuderia.

To answer the question, let him win another WDC to remove any doubt that he is the real deal :cool:

#603 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 5,067 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:20

Yeah best post in the sense - its well written.
But what is written in there is not strictly true.

Some assumptions which the poster made -
1> RB6 is much better than Brawn - NOT TRUE
Relative to other cars. First 6-7 races No one could touch Brawns while RB6 was getting matched by Ferraris early on, Macca in mid season and then Ferrari again at the end.

2> The post ignores (or makes light of) the reliability issues.
2 Wins lost in the first two races and then continue to have niggles - that has a major impact. Who is to say that an error prone Hamilton or Alonso would not have capitulated in that car.. Vettel deserves Kudos in maintaining the focus and when the pressure was at the max.

3> The post simply ignores the fact that in Button's case he had Rubino in the other seat. That has to make anyone's life easy.
While Vettel and Webber were fighting and stealing points off each other. If they were not paired together, season would have been over by Silverstone as was the case with Brawns.

4> The biggest assumption people make is about the supposed advantage of RB6 without a shred of proof. Most times they simply quote the Q3 difference from other cars as the car advantage. Implying that if SV or Webber qualified by blowing the field by xx secs , the car is xx secs faster.... That really cracks me up. Who was driving the car? Car itself?

All in all I am amazed how the same people who cribbed about Brawn's car superiority - now sing different tune because it suits the argument now that Vettel is on top.


Obviously we know nothing with 100% in F1 and so using your method of argument against you, lets debunk your points.


1> RB6 is much better than Brawn - NOT TRUE
Relative to other cars. First 6-7 races No one could touch Brawns while RB6 was getting matched by Ferraris early on, Macca in mid season and then Ferrari again at the end.

Perhaps, its simply because the guys with the cars close to the Brawns at the time. Toyota and RedBull weren't simply up to the task come race day. In some of those races Button won, Trulli qualified on pole in Bahrain, Vettel qualified on pole in Turkey then ran wide in the first lap and gifted the lead to Jenson. Go look at the qualifying times again, even the racing stints and you will see things were much more closer in 09 than 10. It simply looked that Jenson was able to make the car advantage count more

2> The post ignores (or makes light of) the reliability issues.
2 Wins lost in the first two races and then continue to have niggles - that has a major impact. Who is to say that an error prone Hamilton or Alonso would not have capitulated in that car.. Vettel deserves Kudos in maintaining the focus and when the pressure was at the max.

I mentioned the reliability issues but they do not excuse him crashing into Webber or Button or losing his head behind the safety car in Hungary....Jenson never made comparable mistakes all year.


3> The post simply ignores the fact that in Button's case he had Rubino in the other seat. That has to make anyone's life easy.
While Vettel and Webber were fighting and stealing points off each other. If they were not paired together, season would have been over by Silverstone as was the case with Brawns.


Why do you assume Rubinho is lesser than Webber, you cant prove this...their track record will tell you Rubinho is actually a more formidable opponent. More experienced, participated and won more races, and being in title fights b4 unlike Webber.

4> The biggest assumption people make is about the supposed advantage of RB6 without a shred of proof. Most times they simply quote the Q3 difference from other cars as the car advantage. Implying that if SV or Webber qualified by blowing the field by xx secs , the car is xx secs faster.... That really cracks me up. Who was driving the car? Car itself?

I guess we cant prove f2004 was a great car or the Mclaren car in 89. It must have simply being Schumi and Senna doing all the business... no one can speak with mathematical accuracy just how much laptime car A has over car B...but we can make educated guesses. One thing fundamental to any cars speed is downforce, the downforce advantage the Red Bull had over the grid was massive and undeniable. You can't argue, its a certain way Vettel and Webber used the trottle that makes it accelerate so much faster, or they are the only F1 drivers that know how to carry speed through a high speed corner, any F1 fan with half a brain will know that is bulls***.
A close examination will tell you RB06 held this downforce advantage all year, Brawn didnt... the RB05 was generating more downforce from Silverstone.... sure in one or two circuits like Monza, it wasnt key....but in the rest, it was probably 80% or more of a good laptime, especially with homologated engines.

Edited by bauss, 01 April 2011 - 11:22.


#604 flyer121

flyer121
  • Member

  • 4,570 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 11:45

The whole argument waters down to how much you think RB6 (the car alone NOT with a driver) was faster than the Maccs or the Ferraris AND how much you rate the respective teammates.

Both are subjective fan biased aspects and therefore null and void.


Nobody can tell how Lewis/Alonso would have fared in the RB6 because they didnt drive it.
As to DF there is no accurate assessment about how much extra RB6 had .. plus even if it had loads extra , DF brought with it its own issues on straightline. Add to that a weaker engine and lack of FDuct towards the beginning of the season. I would say not much difference in cars as is made out to be altho RB6 looked better than the rest.
In my "fan biased" view Vettel outperformed his rivals by more than the car advantage - so in equal cars still would outperform Lewis / Alonso albeit with lesser margins.

Same applies to the Rubens argument - You think he is better than Webber but that merely makes me laugh.

So what can we do? Stalemate ...

#605 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 5,067 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:08

yep, and that is the point...Vettel being at that highest echelon remains fairly inconclusive. As you can't even prove he is better than Jenson without making blind leaps that Webber is much better/faster than Rubens, you can't categorically put him in that Lewis/Alonso echelon yet. That is premature.

Vettel looks a fast driver no doubt... time will tell where exactly he stacks up...teammate duels against Bourdais n Webber just isnt enough

Edited by bauss, 01 April 2011 - 12:09.


#606 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 13,725 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 14:20

I mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. Jensen had almost no reliability issues or bad luck during his WDC year, but Vettel had plenty of drama that took points away from him. If you look at the start of 2009, Jensen did not have the top guns fighting him that much at all.

In 2009 The McLarens started the season really badly, and were not to challenge the Brawns for quite a while. Ferrari had Massa and a disinterested Kimi, while Alonso was languishing in a underperforming Renault. It was Vettel who pushed Jensen to the line, but Vettel had five races where for various reasons he could not compete for a podium. Jensen just did not have the same level of competition as Vettel did last year. In the first few races Jensen was mostly fighting Barichello, Trulli, Heidfeld, Glock, Rosberg. All good drivers, but not on the level of Lewis or Hamilton. Both McLaren and Ferrari were caught taking their eye off the ball regarding the new rules and played catch up all season, both with carrying one dead weight as a driver. Jensen only had one retirement the whole season, while all those chasing him had more than that apart from his teammate.

In contrast, Alonso's Ferrari were chasing Vettel right from the go, in 2010. From the very first races Both Farrari and McLaren were able to push hard and challenge for podums and wins. For most of the season there were five drivers who could realistically win the race, and reliability was more evenly split between these five, with Vettels teammate having the least amount of car issues. During the season Vettel took two punctures that severely damaged his race, at least one of them he had to drive around the entire circuit with a delaminating tyre.

Vettel did make life harder for himself with a few mistakes, but he was up against much stiffer opposition the whole season long. To suggest that Button's WDC was noticably more superior than Vettel's is just laughable.

I guess we cant prove f2004 was a great car or the Mclaren car in 89. It must have simply being Schumi and Senna doing all the business... no one can speak with mathematical accuracy just how much laptime car A has over car B...but we can make educated guesses. One thing fundamental to any cars speed is downforce, the downforce advantage the Red Bull had over the grid was massive and undeniable. You can't argue, its a certain way Vettel and Webber used the trottle that makes it accelerate so much faster, or they are the only F1 drivers that know how to carry speed through a high speed corner, any F1 fan with half a brain will know that is bulls***.
A close examination will tell you RB06 held this downforce advantage all year, Brawn didnt... the RB05 was generating more downforce from Silverstone.... sure in one or two circuits like Monza, it wasnt key....but in the rest, it was probably 80% or more of a good laptime, especially with homologated engines.

Downforce is not everything in F1. As far as I know, the double diffuser provided such a great advantage because it greatly reduced the amount of drag that the car produced, which is distinct from downforce I believe. I'm not saying that Vettel or Webber are as good as or better than Lewis or Alonso. And I think that the red Bull was the class of the field for much of last year, as the Brawn was in it's year.

I'm pretty sure that Vettel will prove before half the season is out that he can be as good as any of the current drivers, with the exception of MSC.

Edited by Tsarwash, 01 April 2011 - 14:20.


#607 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 15:24

I'm sure you've been dying to find a place to insert that in a post, but in this case it's hopelessly nonsensical.

Jokes often are. Of course, some people dislike jokes that aims towards their own weak spots.

#608 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,766 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 15:28

I mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. Jensen had almost no reliability issues or bad luck during his WDC year, but Vettel had plenty of drama that took points away from him. If you look at the start of 2009, Jensen did not have the top guns fighting him that much at all.

In 2009 The McLarens started the season really badly, and were not to challenge the Brawns for quite a while. Ferrari had Massa and a disinterested Kimi, while Alonso was languishing in a underperforming Renault. It was Vettel who pushed Jensen to the line, but Vettel had five races where for various reasons he could not compete for a podium. Jensen just did not have the same level of competition as Vettel did last year. In the first few races Jensen was mostly fighting Barichello, Trulli, Heidfeld, Glock, Rosberg. All good drivers, but not on the level of Lewis or Hamilton. Both McLaren and Ferrari were caught taking their eye off the ball regarding the new rules and played catch up all season, both with carrying one dead weight as a driver. Jensen only had one retirement the whole season, while all those chasing him had more than that apart from his teammate.

In contrast, Alonso's Ferrari were chasing Vettel right from the go, in 2010. From the very first races Both Farrari and McLaren were able to push hard and challenge for podums and wins. For most of the season there were five drivers who could realistically win the race, and reliability was more evenly split between these five, with Vettels teammate having the least amount of car issues. During the season Vettel took two punctures that severely damaged his race, at least one of them he had to drive around the entire circuit with a delaminating tyre.

Vettel did make life harder for himself with a few mistakes, but he was up against much stiffer opposition the whole season long. To suggest that Button's WDC was noticably more superior than Vettel's is just laughable.


I've found RBR more dominating in 2010. than BGP in 2009. in terms of speed, especially one-lap speed. What held Vettel down is reliability + his own mistakes. Button didn't have any of those in 2009.

When you speak about lack of competition in 2009., well - Button had Vettel, but Vettel made quite a few mistakes in 2009. so this cannot be forgotten too. But generally, yeah - he is very fast, but also error prone like Lewis and Alonso also are.



#609 lewymp4

lewymp4
  • Member

  • 628 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 01 April 2011 - 17:48

As much as I disagree with flyer121, this is really unfair post towards Vettel. Vettel did no more mistakes last season than Hamilton or Alonso did, he outpaced Mark in most of the races and reliability issues were the only thing preventing him from securing WDC much before last race.


Do you truly believe that Vettel had no more mistakes than Hamilton or Alonso last season? During a race......race Hamilton I believe made one mistake, and that was running into Massa at Monza. There are those who believe that Lewis made a mistake in trying to pass Webber at Singapore. Mark's reputation of making it hard to pass was something that some feel that Hamilton should have considered, but that's an arguable point.

Vettel on the other hand:

1. Turkey- Ran into his teammate Webber, and took each other out of the race.

2. Silverstone- Tried to bum rush Webber at the start, and as a resutl a flat tire, and trip to the pits on the first lap.

3. Hockenheim- Vettel's slow start was compounded when he tried to cut off Alonso, and as a result both Massa and Alonso got by.

4. Hungary- Lost the lead during the race, due to misjudging his distance behind the safety car.

5. Spa- Lost contol, and crashed into Jenson Button taking him out of the race.


Vettel may have made as many, or more mistakes than Hamilton and Alonso combined.


#610 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,766 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 18:12

Do you truly believe that Vettel had no more mistakes than Hamilton or Alonso last season? During a race......race Hamilton I believe made one mistake, and that was running into Massa at Monza. There are those who believe that Lewis made a mistake in trying to pass Webber at Singapore. Mark's reputation of making it hard to pass was something that some feel that Hamilton should have considered, but that's an arguable point.

Vettel on the other hand:

1. Turkey- Ran into his teammate Webber, and took each other out of the race.

2. Silverstone- Tried to bum rush Webber at the start, and as a resutl a flat tire, and trip to the pits on the first lap.

3. Hockenheim- Vettel's slow start was compounded when he tried to cut off Alonso, and as a result both Massa and Alonso got by.

4. Hungary- Lost the lead during the race, due to misjudging his distance behind the safety car.

5. Spa- Lost contol, and crashed into Jenson Button taking him out of the race.


Vettel may have made as many, or more mistakes than Hamilton and Alonso combined.


Well, if you count all of those then you cannot only count Hamilton's Monza mistake because he DID have other mistakes.


#611 DarthWillie

DarthWillie
  • Member

  • 2,559 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 April 2011 - 18:15

Do you truly believe that Vettel had no more mistakes than Hamilton or Alonso last season? During a race......race Hamilton I believe made one mistake, and that was running into Massa at Monza. There are those who believe that Lewis made a mistake in trying to pass Webber at Singapore. Mark's reputation of making it hard to pass was something that some feel that Hamilton should have considered, but that's an arguable point.

Vettel on the other hand:

1. Turkey- Ran into his teammate Webber, and took each other out of the race.

2. Silverstone- Tried to bum rush Webber at the start, and as a resutl a flat tire, and trip to the pits on the first lap.

3. Hockenheim- Vettel's slow start was compounded when he tried to cut off Alonso, and as a result both Massa and Alonso got by.

4. Hungary- Lost the lead during the race, due to misjudging his distance behind the safety car.

5. Spa- Lost contol, and crashed into Jenson Button taking him out of the race.


Vettel may have made as many, or more mistakes than Hamilton and Alonso combined.

wasn't nr 2 Hamilton who hit Vettel and caused the flat tire??

#612 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 7,119 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 18:16

Do you truly believe that Vettel had no more mistakes than Hamilton or Alonso last season? During a race......race Hamilton I believe made one mistake, and that was running into Massa at Monza. There are those who believe that Lewis made a mistake in trying to pass Webber at Singapore. Mark's reputation of making it hard to pass was something that some feel that Hamilton should have considered, but that's an arguable point.

Vettel on the other hand:

1. Turkey- Ran into his teammate Webber, and took each other out of the race.

2. Silverstone- Tried to bum rush Webber at the start, and as a resutl a flat tire, and trip to the pits on the first lap.

3. Hockenheim- Vettel's slow start was compounded when he tried to cut off Alonso, and as a result both Massa and Alonso got by.

4. Hungary- Lost the lead during the race, due to misjudging his distance behind the safety car.

5. Spa- Lost contol, and crashed into Jenson Button taking him out of the race.


Vettel may have made as many, or more mistakes than Hamilton and Alonso combined.


lol
1, okay
2, it was the cutie on your avatar who cut his rear right at silverstone start, although I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.
3, so, a slow start? happens with everyone
4, actually it was communicated by the team management that it was team tactics
5, okay

whereas Alonso:
1, australia start accident with Button
2, china jump start
3, monaco fp3 crash
4, turkey q2 fail
5, canada disability to lap the backmarkers
6, britain overtaking Kubica with 4 wheels off, not letting him past
7, belgium crashing out of the race with no one near him
from this race on, he was pretty good actually, only his last race was bad.


I think Vettel and Hamilton made ~equal mistakes, it's just some of Vettel's mistakes cost him a lot, while Hamilton's not that much, and that enlarges Vettel's mistakes (for example look at turkey and monza, and swap them - if Hamilton crashed in monza fighting for 1st, and Vettel crashed in turkey for 4th, which one would you remember more?)

#613 lewymp4

lewymp4
  • Member

  • 628 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 01 April 2011 - 19:53

lol
1, okay
2, it was the cutie on your avatar who cut his rear right at silverstone start, although I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.
3, so, a slow start? happens with everyone
4, actually it was communicated by the team management that it was team tactics
5, okay

whereas Alonso:
1, australia start accident with Button
2, china jump start
3, monaco fp3 crash
4, turkey q2 fail
5, canada disability to lap the backmarkers
6, britain overtaking Kubica with 4 wheels off, not letting him past
7, belgium crashing out of the race with no one near him
from this race on, he was pretty good actually, only his last race was bad.


I think Vettel and Hamilton made ~equal mistakes, it's just some of Vettel's mistakes cost him a lot, while Hamilton's not that much, and that enlarges Vettel's mistakes (for example look at turkey and monza, and swap them - if Hamilton crashed in monza fighting for 1st, and Vettel crashed in turkey for 4th, which one would you remember more?)


1. okay
2. wrong...Vettel lost the lead to Mark at the start of the race, and Hamilton immediately tucked in behind Webber. Vettel then tried to get his position back, but it was too late, and then moved over into Hamilton.
3. Slow start, true that happens to everybody, but what you do after is when mistakes can arise.
4. Don't Red Bull know the rules?
5. okay

where as Alonso...I agree with you that I may have been a little bit too optimistic by including Fernando, but Vettel without a doubt made many more mistakes last last year, than that cutie as you say in my avatar,


#614 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 20:16

whereas Alonso:
1, australia start accident with Button
2, china jump start
3, monaco fp3 crash
4, turkey q2 fail
5, canada disability to lap the backmarkers
6, britain overtaking Kubica with 4 wheels off, not letting him past
7, belgium crashing out of the race with no one near him
from this race on, he was pretty good actually, only his last race was bad.

And imagine what that did to his image. Half the season was utter crap, really, but then he did some good races and for that he is remembered/valued. Nothing wrong with that, but I guess in hindsight Ferrari made the right choice to ask Massa to move over.

Edited by Hairpin, 01 April 2011 - 20:29.


#615 bimmeric

bimmeric
  • Member

  • 108 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 20:36

It's funny people trying to argue the RB6 wasn't utterly dominant... did you ever watch onboards? I can't count the number of times there was a particular corner on a track that both Vettel and Webber were flat out on while every other car had a lift (Silverstone, Barcelona and actually Monaco are good examples of this). Do you think that Webber and Vettel just have balls of steel and that everyone else is a wimp? Monaco 2010 is particularly telling, there are videos comparing Kubica to Webber side by side, for the whole first half of the lap Kubica is inch perfect and is actually a little bit ahead of Webber, it wasn't until turns 13-14 (the fast left right chicane, I'm terrible with corner names) where Webber get's the lead. Right at that corner you can see that Webber is flat out while Kubica (and every other car) had to have a lift... that was the 4 tenths right there, a clear example of Red-Bull's aero dominance making the difference.

Also you might say that the aero is balanced out by the loss of speed on the straights. Well consider the fact that in Australia last week Vettel was 17km/h faster than the nearest car through the high speed chicane at Australia. You do know he is going to carry that extra 17km/h an hour onto the next straight, I would bet that if you put the speed trap right before the braking zone before turn 13 that the Red-Bull would have the highest trap speed. Literally the only area downforce is a compromise is on a slow corner than a long straight situation (AKA Monza), but any time there is a high speed corner before a straight the drag penalty will be more than balanced out by the extra speed you can carry onto the straight. This is why Vettel was able to overtake with relative ease at Silverstone last year, he was massively faster than any car through the fast right hander onto the new section which allowed him to be along side into the slower corners and make the move stick.

Conclusion aero is KING in F1. The RBR chassis has clearly had the best aero for the last 1.5 seasons so thats why I (and apparently a few others) find it hard to rate Vettel. Obviously I rate him higher than Webber as for the last two years he has been better, and I think he is as quick as anyone in qually. But in a car without that qualifying edge like the MP4-25 or F10 I don't know if he would put up the same fight that Alonso and Hamilton did. My personal ranking is that Tier 1: Alonso and Hamilton, Tier 2: Vettel, Kubica, Button and Rosberg, and if I'm honest I think Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg could be tier 1 but in my mind they are unproven.

My .02

#616 DarthRonzo

DarthRonzo
  • Member

  • 804 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 20:52

Vettel on the other hand:

1. Turkey- Ran into his teammate Webber, and took each other out of the race.

2. Silverstone- Tried to bum rush Webber at the start, and as a resutl a flat tire, and trip to the pits on the first lap.

3. Hockenheim- Vettel's slow start was compounded when he tried to cut off Alonso, and as a result both Massa and Alonso got by.

4. Hungary- Lost the lead during the race, due to misjudging his distance behind the safety car.

5. Spa- Lost contol, and crashed into Jenson Button taking him out of the race.

Vettel may have made as many, or more mistakes than Hamilton and Alonso combined.

1> Turkey - Webber has the malpractice to squeeze drivers to the inside of the straight on overtaking move.
Webber caused the crash in Tukey the same way he tried a self-decapitation in Maylaisia 2005, when he squeezed Fisichella in the last long straight and they collided.
Fisico's Benetton passed over his rollball almost hitting his head.

2> As explained before, it was Lewis.

3> Wheelspin is not a driving mistake.

4> Hungary - Vettel was trying to help the team by leaving a gap among Webber and Alonso. Seb was deservedly punished, but - Mark my words - it won't happen again.

5> Spa - Vettel mistake, but we know that the flexwing came into an unexpected and undesired latteral oscilation/pendulum mode that unbalanced his car under braking.

So actually two mistakes [Hungary and Spa] along the entire season.

#617 barni

barni
  • Member

  • 181 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 20:54

It's funny people trying to argue the RB6 wasn't utterly dominant... did you ever watch onboards? I can't count the number of times there was a particular corner on a track that both Vettel and Webber were flat out on while every other car had a lift (Silverstone, Barcelona and actually Monaco are good examples of this). Do you think that Webber and Vettel just have balls of steel and that everyone else is a wimp? Monaco 2010 is particularly telling, there are videos comparing Kubica to Webber side by side, for the whole first half of the lap Kubica is inch perfect and is actually a little bit ahead of Webber, it wasn't until turns 13-14 (the fast left right chicane, I'm terrible with corner names) where Webber get's the lead. Right at that corner you can see that Webber is flat out while Kubica (and every other car) had to have a lift... that was the 4 tenths right there, a clear example of Red-Bull's aero dominance making the difference.

Also you might say that the aero is balanced out by the loss of speed on the straights. Well consider the fact that in Australia last week Vettel was 17km/h faster than the nearest car through the high speed chicane at Australia. You do know he is going to carry that extra 17km/h an hour onto the next straight, I would bet that if you put the speed trap right before the braking zone before turn 13 that the Red-Bull would have the highest trap speed. Literally the only area downforce is a compromise is on a slow corner than a long straight situation (AKA Monza), but any time there is a high speed corner before a straight the drag penalty will be more than balanced out by the extra speed you can carry onto the straight. This is why Vettel was able to overtake with relative ease at Silverstone last year, he was massively faster than any car through the fast right hander onto the new section which allowed him to be along side into the slower corners and make the move stick.

Conclusion aero is KING in F1. The RBR chassis has clearly had the best aero for the last 1.5 seasons so thats why I (and apparently a few others) find it hard to rate Vettel. Obviously I rate him higher than Webber as for the last two years he has been better, and I think he is as quick as anyone in qually. But in a car without that qualifying edge like the MP4-25 or F10 I don't know if he would put up the same fight that Alonso and Hamilton did. My personal ranking is that Tier 1: Alonso and Hamilton, Tier 2: Vettel, Kubica, Button and Rosberg, and if I'm honest I think Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg could be tier 1 but in my mind they are unproven.

My .02

:up:
i see that some people try not to remember that:
in 2007 vettel was on average 0,5 sec slower than heidfeld in bmw and not faster than vitantonio in str.
in 2008, at some point, a fellow named adrien newey had something to do with the str developement (i think it`s telling that not with rbr - they had "retired" drivers).
in 2009 in overall best car on the grid vettel lost to, underrated imo, button who struggled in the second part of the season.
and at last, in 2010 in a car by light years fastest on the grid he almost lost the title and not only to his teammate, but to alonso in a third best car.
ok, he`s wdc now, but how can he be rated higher than button?

#618 DarthRonzo

DarthRonzo
  • Member

  • 804 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 21:02

:up:
i see that some people try not to remember that:
in 2007 vettel was on average 0,5 sec slower than heidfeld in bmw and not faster than vitantonio in str.
in 2008, at some point, a fellow named adrien newey had something to do with the str developement (i think it`s telling that not with rbr - they had "retired" drivers).
in 2009 in overall best car on the grid vettel lost to, underrated imo, button who struggled in the second part of the season.
and at last, in 2010 in a car by light years fastest on the grid he almost lost the title and not only to his teammate, but to alonso in a third best car.
ok, he`s wdc now, but how can he be rated higher than button?

:up:
The best april 1st joke this year.

#619 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 21,814 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 01 April 2011 - 21:20

You can argue the specific little instances, but I think the general point is that Vettel didn't make THAT many mistakes last year. People like to exaggerate and say he was 'crash-prone', but its just as ridiculous as when people tried(and some still do) to label Lewis the same thing. Vettel didn't run away with the championship because of reliability problems for the most part. 63 points lost, with 3 issues creeping up while he was comfortably leading a race. Nobody else experienced anything close to the same sort of bad luck.

As for whether Vettel is up there with Lewis and Fernando, its impossible to say at the moment. If I had to guess, I'd say he's either there, or damn close. He's been impressing ever since he's set foot in an F1 car. Some people like to make it sound like he's rated only cuz he's got a great car, but I think his 2007 and 2008 seasons were pretty damn impressive. He was impressive as a tester for BMW and had a pretty respectable debut race performance at very short notice. And then when he joined Toro Rosso later that year, he was running in the top 3 at Fuji and finished 4th at China. I mean think about how people would talk about it if Alguesuari got 4th in the next race. People would be hyping him to no end and he not only has a full winter testing under his belt, but also more races than Vettel had at the time. Vettel did it within a few races. In a Toro Rosso. And then in 2008, he was probably one the most impressive drivers all season long. Incredibly consistent and punching well above his weight. His first win in Monza that year is unforgettable for me, no matter how many detractors try and say it was all the car.

Going up against Webber(a very quick guy) in only his 2nd year was supposed to be his grand litmus test, and he passed with flying colors, yet it wasn't good enough for some people. If Vettel isn't quite on par with Lewis or Vettel, I struggle to think of anybody else that I think would match/beat him bar Kubica........maybe.

He's the real deal either way, and I think some people should get used to it and relish that we have another massively talented driver on the grid instead of trying to downplay his acheivements at every opportunity.

Advertisement

#620 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,037 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 01 April 2011 - 21:30

yep, and that is the point...Vettel being at that highest echelon remains fairly inconclusive. As you can't even prove he is better than Jenson without making blind leaps that Webber is much better/faster than Rubens, you can't categorically put him in that Lewis/Alonso echelon yet. That is premature.

Vettel looks a fast driver no doubt... time will tell where exactly he stacks up...teammate duels against Bourdais n Webber just isnt enough



you realize you 're not proving anything, right? You 're just interpreting events and every interpretation is subject to bias. You have no clue if the RB was just quick in qualifying and not so quick in the race, you have no clue if Button was bored in qualifying in Turkey or not, you 're just taking events, filtering them through your own personal bias and labeling them as "proof". I can easily "prove" that Nakajima is faster that Lewis and Alonso and Vetell by using proxies. So may be pipe down with the constant repetition of "prove" this and that. Unless you have traces and sensor data of course.

#621 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 22:17

:up:
i see that some people try not to remember that:
in 2007 vettel was on average 0,5 sec slower than heidfeld in bmw and not faster than vitantonio in str.
in 2008, at some point, a fellow named adrien newey had something to do with the str developement (i think it`s telling that not with rbr - they had "retired" drivers).
in 2009 in overall best car on the grid vettel lost to, underrated imo, button who struggled in the second part of the season.
and at last, in 2010 in a car by light years fastest on the grid he almost lost the title and not only to his teammate, but to alonso in a third best car.
ok, he`s wdc now, but how can he be rated higher than button?

I honestly do not remember that, you're right. Must be said that he only did one race for BMW, so making an average from that might not make very solid statistics, specially considering Heidfeld retired from the race while Vettel finished 8th as the youngest driver ever to score a point in F1. Some people, not you of course, considered that a quite impressive F1 debut for a 19 year old.

True, that the kid did not blow Luizzi away in the first few races in STR but the last races was no contest. He almost put the car on the podium once but decided to run into the back of Webber instead. Yes, that was definitely a mistake, but you are mainly talking about speed and speed he had.
In 2008 it was Newey that drove the car, just as you said. The other car was driven by Sebastien Bourdais, a driver that until being put in the RBR and being crushed by Newey (disguised as Vettel) was considered by many as the best driver outside F1. That day when Vettel, sorry, Newey, won with the STR, Bourdais finished 18th.

But I should not bore you with details.

Edited by Hairpin, 01 April 2011 - 22:22.


#622 DILLIGAF

DILLIGAF
  • Member

  • 4,459 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 01 April 2011 - 22:26

Webber caused the crash in Turkey


:rotfl: Hello Dr Marko.

#623 bimmeric

bimmeric
  • Member

  • 108 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 23:02

That day when Vettel, sorry, Newey, won with the STR, Bourdais finished 18th.

But I should not bore you with details.

I think in this case you should... because Bourdais's car stalled on the grid (where he was 4th) and he had to start from the pit lane. So I think it's safe to say that the gap between them on that day wasn't indicative of the actual performance gap between them.

#624 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 21,814 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 01 April 2011 - 23:09

I think in this case you should... because Bourdais's car stalled on the grid (where he was 4th) and he had to start from the pit lane. So I think it's safe to say that the gap between them on that day wasn't indicative of the actual performance gap between them.

Bourdais might have qualified 4th, but Vettel was still nearly a second faster.

#625 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 23:27

I think in this case you should... because Bourdais's car stalled on the grid (where he was 4th) and he had to start from the pit lane. So I think it's safe to say that the gap between them on that day wasn't indicative of the actual performance gap between them.

I think Bourdais was, on average, around 5 places behind Vettel when both finished (and, I think, never ahead), so I do think it is safe to talk about an actual performance gap between them. I did, however, not claim that particular day was just an average day. Instead my intention was to highlight the fact that Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso. In a Toro Rosso for christ sake! In spite of that people in this thread claim he has never "proved" himself in inferior machinery.

Edited by Hairpin, 01 April 2011 - 23:28.


#626 robefc

robefc
  • Member

  • 13,534 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 01 April 2011 - 23:48

You can argue the specific little instances, but I think the general point is that Vettel didn't make THAT many mistakes last year. People like to exaggerate and say he was 'crash-prone', but its just as ridiculous as when people tried(and some still do) to label Lewis the same thing. Vettel didn't run away with the championship because of reliability problems for the most part. 63 points lost, with 3 issues creeping up while he was comfortably leading a race. Nobody else experienced anything close to the same sort of bad luck.

As for whether Vettel is up there with Lewis and Fernando, its impossible to say at the moment. If I had to guess, I'd say he's either there, or damn close. He's been impressing ever since he's set foot in an F1 car. Some people like to make it sound like he's rated only cuz he's got a great car, but I think his 2007 and 2008 seasons were pretty damn impressive. He was impressive as a tester for BMW and had a pretty respectable debut race performance at very short notice. And then when he joined Toro Rosso later that year, he was running in the top 3 at Fuji and finished 4th at China. I mean think about how people would talk about it if Alguesuari got 4th in the next race. People would be hyping him to no end and he not only has a full winter testing under his belt, but also more races than Vettel had at the time. Vettel did it within a few races. In a Toro Rosso. And then in 2008, he was probably one the most impressive drivers all season long. Incredibly consistent and punching well above his weight. His first win in Monza that year is unforgettable for me, no matter how many detractors try and say it was all the car.

Going up against Webber(a very quick guy) in only his 2nd year was supposed to be his grand litmus test, and he passed with flying colors, yet it wasn't good enough for some people. If Vettel isn't quite on par with Lewis or Vettel, I struggle to think of anybody else that I think would match/beat him bar Kubica........maybe.

He's the real deal either way, and I think some people should get used to it and relish that we have another massively talented driver on the grid instead of trying to downplay his acheivements at every opportunity.


:up:

Top post...although webber as a litmus test isn't good enough for me, hence why it's still impossible to say at the moment, as you mentioned.


#627 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 24,312 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 01 April 2011 - 23:51

Bourdais might have qualified 4th, but Vettel was still nearly a second faster.


I don't think there is any doubt Vettel was faster than Bourdais, and as we know Vettel is excellent in the wet too which may go some way to explaining the large gap. The fact that Bourdais could still be 4th on the grid despite being that distance behind his teammate does however indicate that during that quali session it wasn't such a bad car to be in. An inferior car, most certainly, but not to the level of exclaiming "a Toro Ross for christ sake" as Hairpin has! From round 9, it was never out of the top 10 in qualifying, with Bourdais taking a top ten grid slot 6/10 of the final rounds, and Vettel an impressive 9/10.

#628 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 7,265 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 00:00

In my opinion not even close, the world class thing at RB is Newey not Vettel


Well if that is the case, why didn't Class Act Newey accept Ferrari's tempting offer where he could work with one of the presumed "drivers in a higher class" Fernando Alonso? Why isn't he banging on McLaren's door to work with the other one, Hamilton? The man signed on until 2014 at RBR- the same timeframe contemplated by Vettel's contract. Maybe you want to rethink that argument.

#629 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 00:45

An inferior car, most certainly, but not to the level of exclaiming "a Toro Ross for christ sake" as Hairpin has!

7, Ret, 15, Ret, Ret, Ret, 13, 17, 11, 12, 18, 10, 7, 18, 12, 10, 13

That is the season result of one of the two STR's. By looking at that, would you believe the other car won a race the same season? There Toto Rosso was not crap, but it was not a car to win races in.

#630 klyster

klyster
  • Member

  • 5,738 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 April 2011 - 01:52

I suppose if they were courting the press, building a brand, passing themselves off as role models, yes.


Rather like those who comment on those that pass comment on someone elses comments :lol:



I am not directing my comment at an individual in particular, rather than a group who criticize Lewis for something he may do on a somewhat irregular basis rather that a daily basis, like they seem to with such vehemence.

Commenting on what others write is what forum are all about, at least the others have a chance to answer.

Edited by klyster, 02 April 2011 - 02:12.


#631 KOMORI

KOMORI
  • Member

  • 743 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 02 April 2011 - 02:04

The only definitive test would be to put them all in identical cars and run on exactly the same day in the same conditions. That's never going to happen. I think we should be thankful that we have a plethora of great driving talents on the grid at the moment, possibly one of the strongest across the boards ever, and stop with the whole "A is better than B or C because (insert fanboi diatribe here)".

They are all DAMN GOOD. Sit back and enjoy.

#632 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 5,067 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 02:53

It's funny people trying to argue the RB6 wasn't utterly dominant... did you ever watch onboards? I can't count the number of times there was a particular corner on a track that both Vettel and Webber were flat out on while every other car had a lift (Silverstone, Barcelona and actually Monaco are good examples of this). Do you think that Webber and Vettel just have balls of steel and that everyone else is a wimp? Monaco 2010 is particularly telling, there are videos comparing Kubica to Webber side by side, for the whole first half of the lap Kubica is inch perfect and is actually a little bit ahead of Webber, it wasn't until turns 13-14 (the fast left right chicane, I'm terrible with corner names) where Webber get's the lead. Right at that corner you can see that Webber is flat out while Kubica (and every other car) had to have a lift... that was the 4 tenths right there, a clear example of Red-Bull's aero dominance making the difference.

Also you might say that the aero is balanced out by the loss of speed on the straights. Well consider the fact that in Australia last week Vettel was 17km/h faster than the nearest car through the high speed chicane at Australia. You do know he is going to carry that extra 17km/h an hour onto the next straight, I would bet that if you put the speed trap right before the braking zone before turn 13 that the Red-Bull would have the highest trap speed. Literally the only area downforce is a compromise is on a slow corner than a long straight situation (AKA Monza), but any time there is a high speed corner before a straight the drag penalty will be more than balanced out by the extra speed you can carry onto the straight. This is why Vettel was able to overtake with relative ease at Silverstone last year, he was massively faster than any car through the fast right hander onto the new section which allowed him to be along side into the slower corners and make the move stick.

Conclusion aero is KING in F1. The RBR chassis has clearly had the best aero for the last 1.5 seasons so thats why I (and apparently a few others) find it hard to rate Vettel. Obviously I rate him higher than Webber as for the last two years he has been better, and I think he is as quick as anyone in qually. But in a car without that qualifying edge like the MP4-25 or F10 I don't know if he would put up the same fight that Alonso and Hamilton did. My personal ranking is that Tier 1: Alonso and Hamilton, Tier 2: Vettel, Kubica, Button and Rosberg, and if I'm honest I think Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg could be tier 1 but in my mind they are unproven.

My .02


:up: :up: :up:


#633 Boxerevo

Boxerevo
  • Member

  • 3,739 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 05:01

It's funny people trying to argue the RB6 wasn't utterly dominant... did you ever watch onboards? I can't count the number of times there was a particular corner on a track that both Vettel and Webber were flat out on while every other car had a lift (Silverstone, Barcelona and actually Monaco are good examples of this). Do you think that Webber and Vettel just have balls of steel and that everyone else is a wimp? Monaco 2010 is particularly telling, there are videos comparing Kubica to Webber side by side, for the whole first half of the lap Kubica is inch perfect and is actually a little bit ahead of Webber, it wasn't until turns 13-14 (the fast left right chicane, I'm terrible with corner names) where Webber get's the lead. Right at that corner you can see that Webber is flat out while Kubica (and every other car) had to have a lift... that was the 4 tenths right there, a clear example of Red-Bull's aero dominance making the difference.

Also you might say that the aero is balanced out by the loss of speed on the straights. Well consider the fact that in Australia last week Vettel was 17km/h faster than the nearest car through the high speed chicane at Australia. You do know he is going to carry that extra 17km/h an hour onto the next straight, I would bet that if you put the speed trap right before the braking zone before turn 13 that the Red-Bull would have the highest trap speed. Literally the only area downforce is a compromise is on a slow corner than a long straight situation (AKA Monza), but any time there is a high speed corner before a straight the drag penalty will be more than balanced out by the extra speed you can carry onto the straight. This is why Vettel was able to overtake with relative ease at Silverstone last year, he was massively faster than any car through the fast right hander onto the new section which allowed him to be along side into the slower corners and make the move stick.

Conclusion aero is KING in F1. The RBR chassis has clearly had the best aero for the last 1.5 seasons so thats why I (and apparently a few others) find it hard to rate Vettel. Obviously I rate him higher than Webber as for the last two years he has been better, and I think he is as quick as anyone in qually. But in a car without that qualifying edge like the MP4-25 or F10 I don't know if he would put up the same fight that Alonso and Hamilton did. My personal ranking is that Tier 1: Alonso and Hamilton, Tier 2: Vettel, Kubica, Button and Rosberg, and if I'm honest I think Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg could be tier 1 but in my mind they are unproven.

My .02

QFT.

Edited by Boxerevo, 02 April 2011 - 05:01.


#634 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,766 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 06:57

7, Ret, 15, Ret, Ret, Ret, 13, 17, 11, 12, 18, 10, 7, 18, 12, 10, 13

That is the season result of one of the two STR's. By looking at that, would you believe the other car won a race the same season? There Toto Rosso was not crap, but it was not a car to win races in.


But to be fair you do have to admit that the other Seb turned out not good enough for F1 (as much success he did have in other series). So, TP's rated guys like Piquet or Kovalainen higher than Bourdais.

I agree with Seanspeed - even if Vettel isn't quite on Alonso/Hamilton level he is in any case better than all the rest (including Kubica, Rosberg, etc.) My hunch is that Vettel IS on the 'tier 1' level, but I'll wait until end of this season to be 100% sure.

Edited by velgajski1, 02 April 2011 - 07:02.


#635 DILLIGAF

DILLIGAF
  • Member

  • 4,459 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:44

You can argue the specific little instances, but I think the general point is that Vettel didn't make THAT many mistakes last year. People like to exaggerate and say he was 'crash-prone', but its just as ridiculous as when people tried(and some still do) to label Lewis the same thing. Vettel didn't run away with the championship because of reliability problems for the most part. 63 points lost, with 3 issues creeping up while he was comfortably leading a race. Nobody else experienced anything close to the same sort of bad luck.

As for whether Vettel is up there with Lewis and Fernando, its impossible to say at the moment. If I had to guess, I'd say he's either there, or damn close. He's been impressing ever since he's set foot in an F1 car. Some people like to make it sound like he's rated only cuz he's got a great car, but I think his 2007 and 2008 seasons were pretty damn impressive. He was impressive as a tester for BMW and had a pretty respectable debut race performance at very short notice. And then when he joined Toro Rosso later that year, he was running in the top 3 at Fuji and finished 4th at China. I mean think about how people would talk about it if Alguesuari got 4th in the next race. People would be hyping him to no end and he not only has a full winter testing under his belt, but also more races than Vettel had at the time. Vettel did it within a few races. In a Toro Rosso. And then in 2008, he was probably one the most impressive drivers all season long. Incredibly consistent and punching well above his weight. His first win in Monza that year is unforgettable for me, no matter how many detractors try and say it was all the car.

Going up against Webber(a very quick guy) in only his 2nd year was supposed to be his grand litmus test, and he passed with flying colors, yet it wasn't good enough for some people. If Vettel isn't quite on par with Lewis or Vettel, I struggle to think of anybody else that I think would match/beat him bar Kubica........maybe.

He's the real deal either way, and I think some people should get used to it and relish that we have another massively talented driver on the grid instead of trying to downplay his acheivements at every opportunity.


:up: Great post


#636 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 11:58

But to be fair you do have to admit that the other Seb turned out not good enough for F1 (as much success he did have in other series). So, TP's rated guys like Piquet or Kovalainen higher than Bourdais.

I agree with Seanspeed - even if Vettel isn't quite on Alonso/Hamilton level he is in any case better than all the rest (including Kubica, Rosberg, etc.) My hunch is that Vettel IS on the 'tier 1' level, but I'll wait until end of this season to be 100% sure.

Bourdais future might have been different with another team mate(not that he did any good against Buemi the season after, but we all know what confidence means). Anyway, I think Vettel took that car places were it did not belong.

#637 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 24,312 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 12:28

7, Ret, 15, Ret, Ret, Ret, 13, 17, 11, 12, 18, 10, 7, 18, 12, 10, 13

That is the season result of one of the two STR's. By looking at that, would you believe the other car won a race the same season? There Toto Rosso was not crap, but it was not a car to win races in.


Not by looking at that you wouldn't- but as we know Bourdais never really flourished at Toro rosso, even struggling against Buemi the following season before being dropped.

And I do agree that Vettel put that Toro Rosso in some surprising positions, not least his pole and victory at Monza. You won't find me arguing against the notion that he is up there with Alonso and Hamilton. He has proven that he is. You might though find me arguing against the view that winning in the Toro Rosso was akin to winning in a Minardi... :D


#638 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 24,312 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 12:30

The only definitive test would be to put them all in identical cars and run on exactly the same day in the same conditions. That's never going to happen. I think we should be thankful that we have a plethora of great driving talents on the grid at the moment, possibly one of the strongest across the boards ever, and stop with the whole "A is better than B or C because (insert fanboi diatribe here)".

They are all DAMN GOOD. Sit back and enjoy.


:up: Couldn't agree more. But for the majority here, they never will enjoy it.

#639 JPW

JPW
  • Member

  • 3,335 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 12:47

Well Sir Stirling Moss obviously thinks Vettel is in the top class:

"Vettel is to driving what Adrian is to designing cars. He seems to have exceptional ability, and when you put the two together, who else has a chance?"

:up:

Advertisement

#640 Ibsey

Ibsey
  • Member

  • 525 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 15:23

Forgive me if this point has already been mentioned before, but I think we should not forget that Vettel is still relatively young (from memory... what is he... only 24/25 years old?). Therefore IMO Vettel is not yet at his peak & is still climbing.

To me he has demostrated that he is in the same class as Hamilton / Alonso in terms of sheer natural speed or if you like banzai quali laps. For instance the one lap he did to claim pole in China 2009 was most impressive which ever way you look at it, even taking into account with any superior the car may or may not have had on that track. To me sheer natural speed is always going to be the most vital quality I look for in assessing a driver's class. I get the impression that every other aspect of racing can be taught, however sheer natural speed, is very very difficult (if not impossible) to implement into a driver who didn't have it to start off with.

However where Vettel appears to be lacking IMO is in areas outside the car, for instance, like setting up the car. I vaguely recall hearing on the BBC last year (I think it might have been the 2010 end of year review) that around the middle of 2010 Vettel didn't have the Red Bull 100% to his liking & that was part of the reason why Webber was performing better than him at the time & Vettel made the mistakes he did.

I know, for example, Hamilton is almost the same age as Vettel & therefore one could argue that Hamilton has the same diliema i.e lack of setup knowledge & to some extent this might be the case. However I get the impression that Hamilton had a greater amout of set-up experience than compared with Vettel at the same age. Don't forget Hamliton's career had been carefully plotted by Mclaren pre F1. Indeed in mid to late 2006, I believe Hamilton got an enormus amout of testing in the car, & was the best prepared rookie to enter into f1 as a result. Whereas it would appear to me that Red Bull may have rushed Vettel through the Junior formulaes as quickly as possible.

Another area that is currently a question mark for me on Vettel is race craft, & more specifically working the driver in front to create an over taking opportunity. Whenever Alonso or Hamilton is stuck behind a driver, you sense that they will somehow pressure the driver in front to create an overtaking opportunity (which is one of the may reasons that makes them great IMO).

Currently I don't sense that same "killer instinct" from Vettel that he can force the overtaking opportunity (actually completeing the overtake is another matter altogether). For instance....Spa 2010, before the Button / Vettel crash, I believe Vettel had a faster overall car than the wonded Button (who was going to change his front wing after a 1st corner incident). Now Spa is a track where you can apparently overtake, however I never got the impression that Button was under an serious threat from Vettel prior to their crash (i'm sure someone may argue otherwise, but that is just my opinion). I know there was the F-duct factor on the Mclaren, but then as bimmeric pointed out above, the RB should of had better speed out of the fast corners like Stavelot (even allowing for the "dirty air") to allow Vettel to serious challenege into the Bus Stop.

Finally another slight question mark for me is whether Vettel has demostrated the team leadership skills or ability at Red Bull that Alonso or Hamilton appear to have within their teams. Or to put it another way, will he bang the table & demand things at Red Bull when things need changing?

For example, if I was in Vettel position, coming into this season I would have DEMANDED that Adrian Newey & Red Bull RB7 car was as competive in the race as it appeared in qualifying. I would have argued that if in 2010 the RB6 car had a good 0.5 secs advantage over the F10 or the MP4-25 in Qualifying. Then we can afford to give up at least 0.2 secs of this edge, to ensure the car is as sorted in the race as it is in quali, thus maintaining a consistent gap to its rivals (rather than suffer the RB6 relative drop off between qualifying & race pace that we saw in 2010). I think this would be important for a number of reasons not least, to assess strategy calls & tatics as well monitor how temp / conditions or tire wear would affect the car's balance.

I'm not sure whether Vettel has actually done this coming into 2011, but the proof will be in whether the real RB7 is as competitive in the race, when compared with its rivals. I think it is still too early to tell. But I remember when Alonso first moved to Mclaren in 2007, he demanded a "racable & reilable car" not a "rocket ship that blew up after 5 laps"...famously stating that he had brought 0.6 secs with him. That demand seemed to served him well throughout the year (even if his other demands were not quite as successful). But I think that is just one example of what a truely great WDC needs to do behind the scenes.

To sum up I do believe that Vettel has the ability to overcome the concerns I have expressed above, & i'm sure that with greater experience & maturitity he will develop into a more "complete" driver who will be able to considered in the same class as Alonso or Hamilton. This year will surely tell.

Edited by Ibsey, 02 April 2011 - 17:11.


#641 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 18:26

You might though find me arguing against the view that winning in the Toro Rosso was akin to winning in a Minardi... :D

I never made that comparison. Anyone could win in a Minardi! No, comparing to this years field, from what we seen so far, would compare it to winning a race in a Sauber. A Sauber for christ sake! If anyone puts a Sauber on pole and wins the race, I will lift my hat for him. Or her.

Edited by Hairpin, 02 April 2011 - 18:26.


#642 barni

barni
  • Member

  • 181 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 18:59

I never made that comparison. Anyone could win in a Minardi! No, comparing to this years field, from what we seen so far, would compare it to winning a race in a Sauber. A Sauber for christ sake! If anyone puts a Sauber on pole and wins the race, I will lift my hat for him. Or her.

that was mentioned above that torro rosso was in 2008 such a small red bull, a real predecessor of rb5 the best overall car in 2009, so that wasn`t "for christ sake" sauber, because if sauber had red bull money and main constructor it would also win races.
you can compare this win with button win in honda in 2006 in the rain, though the latter won from p14 in third best car, while vettel drove second best car in monza from pole with hamilton far behind.

#643 Gagá Bueno

Gagá Bueno
  • Member

  • 360 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 02 April 2011 - 19:21

you can compare this win with button win in honda in 2006 in the rain, though the latter won from p14 in third best car, while vettel drove second best car in monza from pole with hamilton far behind.


Aren't you forgetting a wheel nut, maybe? Button was by no means "driver of the day" in Hungary '06, contrary to Vettel in Monza '08.

And it's difficult to compare Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, but I tend to cut Seb some slack because he is not so long "in the business"...


#644 barni

barni
  • Member

  • 181 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 02 April 2011 - 19:41

Aren't you forgetting a wheel nut, maybe? Button was by no means "driver of the day" in Hungary '06, contrary to Vettel in Monza '08.

And it's difficult to compare Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, but I tend to cut Seb some slack because he is not so long "in the business"...

as for button ok, but seb was maybe driver of the weekend, because, for me, hamilton was the driver of the day.
at least try to compare visibility of a driver starting from pole to the others`.
when i saw where the other torro rosso had qualyfied i was sure who was going to win that race.
kovalainen was too weak (perhabs after his crash?) despite car advantage.

#645 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,387 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 April 2011 - 19:54

Make no bones about it the STR was hardly a tail end charlie for the latter half of 08 although not a front runner either. I actually thought he drove just as well in Brazil that year when they kept him on a 3 stopper when they went to slicks. Everyone else went for a 2 stopper and without that Seb could've have landed a podium. Instead he helped set up possibly the most thrilling climax to a championship ever.
Whether or not we get to see Seb have to come through the pack or see him not in the best car this year remains to be seen but whilst he has the best car and hopefully wins a few more races, I get the impression it won't change this debate one bit.

#646 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,766 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 02 April 2011 - 19:58

Bourdais future might have been different with another team mate(not that he did any good against Buemi the season after, but we all know what confidence means). Anyway, I think Vettel took that car places were it did not belong.


I disagree with this - Hamilton beat Kovalainen hard and he is still in F1. Point is - teams can evaluate driver performance with more knowledge than we fans can so if Bourdais was out of F1, then he probably deserved to be out of F1.

#647 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • Admin

  • 19,094 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 03 April 2011 - 10:39

I think we have too many WDC winning drivers on the grid today. It makes people think it's easy to achieve. It's not. Vettel is a top class driver.

#648 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 16,192 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 03 April 2011 - 13:04

as for button ok, but seb was maybe driver of the weekend, because, for me, hamilton was the driver of the day.
at least try to compare visibility of a driver starting from pole to the others`.
when i saw where the other torro rosso had qualyfied i was sure who was going to win that race.
kovalainen was too weak (perhabs after his crash?) despite car advantage.


According to his manager HK had a braking issue which meant he could not push and he was actually glad to keep second.

#649 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 03 April 2011 - 13:39

I think we have too many WDC winning drivers on the grid today. It makes people think it's easy to achieve. It's not. Vettel is a top class driver.

Yep.

And even Bourdais and Power are decent drivers too!

Bourdais really wasn't that far behind, and given a suited stable understeery car could be just as solid in F1 as with the comparitively tank-like Panoz.

IMO, Boudais was considerably less competitive went STR went to a new chassis design. I recall they started the year with previous season chassis.
Funny how an extra 100-200 kgs makes an open wheel car a tank, never mind a NASCAR or super truck racing!
There is nothing to show that Bourdais was clearly inferior to long-time F1 regulars like de la Rosa, Wurz, Sato etc IMO...

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 03 April 2011 - 13:42.


#650 barni

barni
  • Member

  • 181 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 03 April 2011 - 17:16

According to his manager HK had a braking issue which meant he could not push and he was actually glad to keep second.

thanks, i missed that one.