1459 replies to this topic

[Boxerevo]

I think Vettel is on the same class with the two above,but i cant rate him above the two for his dominance nowadays.

He is doing the job now with perfection and has the measure of Webber.

Probably will be youngest 2 times world champion,and maybe the youngest 3 times world champion on 2012.

My problem today is to measure how much his car has on advantage the against the others.

For sure on the race,the battle is closer but he is still has the fastest car of the race,race after race the same thing on normal conditions.

For example,I dont remember if Hamilton had the fastest car for 3 races in sequence,not even on 2007 when he had his fastest/best car against the others until this day.

Ferrari was always there against him.(above,equal or second fastest).

I dont know about Alonso for memory,maybe on the starts of his championship season but he doesn't end with the fastest car overall over the season.

Its very very rare to see Vettel on (second half of 2009,2010,2011) with the second or third fastest car in normal conditions nowadays.

Edited by Boxerevo, 09 May 2011 - 20:43.

[Bonaventura]

The day where Vettels car advantage comes to an end, comes nearer every day, since nothing lasts forever (may it even take some years)
Than, if he once has to race with the competitiors through the field, we will see how good he really is.
Perhaps he is better, perhaps he isn't.

[Birelman]

No it doesn't. But I suppose as you don't believe in fair comparisons, you will ignore the obvious.

I was arguing driveability, that's different from raw speed. Read.


So how is it that Ferrari was enchanted enough to employ him for 1992?


Most of his cars are what would be considered driveable. Patrese admitted this when he went to Benetton in 1993

Oh, I thought you were making an excuse to explain why Kubica was so much quicker than both Vettel and Hamilton... the latter who was in a McLaren. You're trying to worm yourself out.


Oh really? Where's your proof? Maybe Vettel underperformed all season long which made the BMW look better than it was? Or maybe, just maybe that the Toro Rosso was quicker than the BMW at Brazil.

I also notice how you refrain from saying that Kubica's BMW was better than the McLaren DESPITE Kubica clearly having more grip to allow him to UNLAP himself. That's a clue, he was lapped in the race.


No. All I'm getting is that you're riding on no proof. What if the Toro Rosso's tyres at that time were in better shape than the McLaren's? You need to stop ignoring car differences.


Knowledge? I thought you would know that it's unfair to compare drivers in different cars. I would you would know that F1 is more about the car than the driver.

What are you talking about dude? proof? what is it that you want me to prove? I'm here simply stating my opinion, not prove anything to anybody, you either like what I write or you don't, agree, or disagree, I don't intend to prove anything to anybody.

To get back to my original point which has been diverted a bit......Yes there are car differences, and yes, I take that into account. There are certain circumstances where a driver can me a difference, and yes, Brasil 08 was one of those. Now, there are a few things that we know for a fact, that Lewis was driving a World Championship contending McLaren, that McLaren is one of the best teams in Formula 1 (regardless of where they sit in the standings in a particular year), that Hamilton is one heck of a racer, and that Hamilton is a demon in the wet, can we agree on this? Now, here comes little ole Vettel, (If it makes you happy, I'll remind us all it's a Newey design STR, so was the 06, 07 and 08, RBR, didn't see them lighting up the boards, but anyway...) Now, this Toro Rosso you claim was really good in the wet, and it very well could be (IMO no it wasn't as great as all that) but even if it was as good, or even better than the McLaren, however unlikely, Hamilton, being the demon that he is in the wet would just dust off this young crappy driver in the far superior STR, because, we all know, that Hamilton can make the difference in the wet. Now, the only way that wouldn't be, is if the driver driving the car which was better than him was driving at least close to the level of Hamilton in the far superior and dominating STR so that the car difference would negate, or neutralize Hamilton's superior driving in the wet, otherwise Hamilton would still win, you understand this?

You see, you keep saying the Toro Rosso was better than the McLaren in the conditions, but you fail to account for the fact that Hamilton thrives in those conditions.

Edited by Birelman, 09 May 2011 - 20:52.

[Sakae]

I think Vettel is on the same class with the two above,but i cant rate him above the two for his dominance nowadays.

He is doing the job now with perfection and has the measure of Webber.

Probably will be youngest 2 times world champion,and maybe the youngest 3 times world champion on 2012.

My problem today is to measure how much his car has on advantage the against the others.

For sure on the race,the battle is closer but he is still has the fastest car of the race,race after race the same thing on normal conditions.

For example,I dont remember if Hamilton had the fastest car for 3 races in sequence,not even on 2007 when he had his fastest/best car against the others until this day.

Ferrari was always there against him.(above,equal or second fastest).

I dont know about Alonso for memory,maybe on the starts of his championship season but he doesn't end with the fastest car overall over the season.

Its very very rare to see Vettel on (second half of 2009,2010,2011) with the second or third fastest car in normal conditions nowadays.

How do we really "know" with any certainty that Ferrari and McLaren have "so much more" inferior cars compared to RBR? Their straight line speed during speed traps is usually faster than RBR, Mercedes is alleged to produce more power than Renault, so what's the problem when we get beyond headlines?

[Birelman]

How do we really "know" with any certainty that Ferrari and McLaren have "so much more" inferior cars compared to RBR? Their straight line speed during speed traps is usually faster than RBR, Mercedes is alleged to produce more power than Renault, so what's the problem when we get beyond headlines?

haha! I can answer that! It's really simple, really. They have a favorite driver in "X" car which cannot beat this other driver in the "Y" car, hence, "Y" car must be far superior if my driver can't beat that crappy driver in the dominating car!!!! It takes lots and lots of Formula 1 knowledge to figure that out, but, it makes perfect Formula 1 sense!!!!!!

[hotstickyslick]

Hamilton was proclaimed to be on his way to sainthood after China,

What?

yet last race, a place where McLaren should have shone, I have not seen him.

What? What?

So, what happened there if he (Ham) is so brilliant?

He beat his teammate? Just like Vettel beat his?

Cars really do not drive themselves, and he is making errors as a next driver.

Drivers tend to make errors when they're desperately trying to beat what is a faster car. Being mid-pack and scrapping is when errors are usually forced, something that usually doesn't happen when a driver is alone out on track and not bothered.

Issue is that in the case of Vettel it is a big splash, whereas hardly mentioned when Hamilton is involved.

Rubbish. Italy last year was like dropping a dinosaur in an ocean.

He screw up yesterday, he is mortal, and going back to potty-times and to claim as someone did in here how much more successful he was then over Vettel is hardly relevant today. You are only as good as your last race; that is about all.

It's just when Vettel has screwed up recently, like he did in Turkey when he attempted to 'overtake' Webber and Belgium when he attempted to 'overtake' Button, he does it so spectacularly, like a helicopter airlifting a Blue Whale and dropping it into an olympic swimming pool complete with and audience and judges.

Edited by hotstickyslick, 09 May 2011 - 21:07.

[Boxerevo]

@ - Birelman @ - Sakae.

Well,if you two really believe that is the case,i respect your believe but we can't continue the debate.

We see different worlds so.

One thing i can tell for experience,people here in Brazil called someday Felipe Massa "The Poleman" and they thinked that he was much Faster than Alonso on single lap.

We cant jugde for sure Felipe,because the accident,but now we see the "slow" Alonso destroy him on qualy.

Kimi was the fastest man ever on Newey Car too,got paired with Massa and got it harder than everybody expected.

Just my opinion.

Edited by Boxerevo, 09 May 2011 - 21:14.

[McLarenNo1]

You see, you keep saying the Toro Rosso was better than the McLaren in the conditions, but you fail to account for the fact that Hamilton thrives in those conditions.

Hamilton does thrive in those conditions. However he can't do much to attack Vettel if his car is set-up for straight line speed more than overall downforce like others on the grid at the time. For example if you have a high downforce setup in Monza in the dry but no F-Duct, then you would be a sitting duck. Hamilton had a low downforce setup unlike others and in wet, the higher the downforce the better. I think Lewis was doing well to keep up.

Anyway here is an interesting interview with Lewis. Nice to see he is thinking what is happening the same as me. It is clear that Webber is underperforming though as he should be outqualifying slower cars but he is not. Only last race he managed to get a respectable position for that car. It reminds me of the 2004 season and the gap in qualifying is also similar, if not more to the 2nd fastest car.

Vettel could dominate - Hamilton

[hotstickyslick]

What are you talking about dude? proof? what is it that you want me to prove? I'm here simply stating my opinion, not prove anything to anybody, you either like what I write or you don't, agree, or disagree, I don't intend to prove anything to anybody.

I didn't get that impression.

To get back to my original point which has been diverted a bit......Yes there are car differences, and yes, I take that into account.

Not enough evidently.

There are certain circumstances where a driver can me a difference, and yes, Brasil 08 was one of those.

And how? There isn't a magical window in the conditions of the track where car differences are nullified. Each car will always behave and perform uniquely in any condition. That's one of the beauties of F1. If F1 was a spec series, I'd agree with you.

Now, there are a few things that we know for a fact, that Lewis was driving a World Championship contending McLaren, that McLaren is one of the best teams in Formula 1 (regardless of where they sit in the standings in a particular year), that Hamilton is one heck of a racer, and that Hamilton is a demon in the wet, can we agree on this?

A world championship car and a world championship team can have it's shortcomings in areas, areas where not so good cars and teams can shine with Brazil 2008 being an example of this for McLaren.

The McLaren of that year while quick, was particularly difficult to drive and required a certain driving style to get the most out of it as shown by Kovalainen's smoother driving style killing the tyres too quickly. It's shortcomings was definitely in tyre wear, particularly on intermediate tyres when the track conditions started drying, evidence of this being in Silverstone when Kovalainen wore his rear tyres out so much that he spun several times and when the performance from Hamilton's tyres went off at Monza, the same race where Hamilton was originally on a one stopper but the team believed more rain was coming so they gave him extremes instead of intermediates. Brazil was more about McLaren pitting Hamilton too early for inters, and while the drivers who stayed out on slicks were still posting fast lap times, Hamilton was out there floundering on hot treads.

There are more examples of your perceived God-like team and car screwing up, but I thought that was enough.

Now, here comes little ole Vettel, (If it makes you happy, I'll remind us all it's a Newey design STR, so was the 06, 07 and 08, RBR, didn't see them lighting up the boards, but anyway...) Now, this Toro Rosso you claim was really good in the wet, and it very well could be (IMO no it wasn't as great as all that)

I didn't claim that, but it certainly looked pretty handy didn't it? Remember Fuji 2007? Monaco 2008?

but even if it was as good, or even better than the McLaren, however unlikely,

Why unlikely?

Hamilton, being the demon that he is in the wet would just dust off this young crappy driver in the far superior STR, because, we all know, that Hamilton can make the difference in the wet. Now, the only way that wouldn't be, is if the driver driving the car which was better than him was driving at least close to the level of Hamilton in the far superior and dominating STR so that the car difference would negate, or neutralize Hamilton's superior driving in the wet, otherwise Hamilton would still win, you understand this?

No

You see, you keep saying the Toro Rosso was better than the McLaren in the conditions, but you fail to account for the fact that Hamilton thrives in those conditions.

Um, for sure he's had great wet weather performances, but I don't see how it makes the differences between their cars any clearer. You could say that Vettel's cars have always been the best in the wet and that he just failed to drive it to its potential, but then there is no proof of that so I'm not going to bother. My question is why are you even bothering? Why believe something without any proof to back it up?

[Coral]

How do we really "know" with any certainty that Ferrari and McLaren have "so much more" inferior cars compared to RBR? Their straight line speed during speed traps is usually faster than RBR, Mercedes is alleged to produce more power than Renault, so what's the problem when we get beyond headlines?

The RBR is so much better in qualifying though. Vettel has it so easy starting from pole. Lewis more often than not has to start from the dirty side which is a major disadvantage...it certainly was in Turkey. Then Lewis and Alonso etc are being held up by slow drivers such as Rosberg and this is allowing Vettel to open up a lead early on. From then on he can cruise to victory. I'm not saying Vettel is not good, he is, but he is winning the race in Saturday qualy. The RB7's one-lap pace is sensational. Not to mention that Red Bull seem to be the only top team who know how to do pit stops!

[robefc]

How do we really "know" with any certainty that Ferrari and McLaren have "so much more" inferior cars compared to RBR? Their straight line speed during speed traps is usually faster than RBR, Mercedes is alleged to produce more power than Renault, so what's the problem when we get beyond headlines?

Possibly by looking at more than straight line speed?!

Seriously, just watch a race or two, it's not hard to see.

[Tsarwash]

Just to answer the question, yes it is beginning to appear so. SV does have the best car, but he is keeping it at the front, well ahead of his teammate. And Mark is currently performing well at the minute too. So far this season it is impossible to say that FA and LH are streets ahead of SV.

[McLarenNo1]

I think the only hope rivals have of stopping Vettel is Webber. The gap has widened between the two but I don't think it is all down to Vettel being brilliant as Webber is struggling to beat drivers with slower cars in qualifying and race. I think it is taking him more time to adjust the DRS and hopefully he can get the hang of it in qualifying better and getting confidence to use it earlier. If we see a resurgence of Webber, then he could get pole and start making Vettel prey for others by starting on the dirty side of the grid. His username is aussiegrit in twitter, hope he shows it by digging deep and getting back to beating Vettel like he has done on occasions in 2009 and 2010.

I must add I just searched now and saw this article, an interview with Button. Sport Jenson Button Jenson Button: Mark Webber can help cut Sebastian Vettel's F1 lead
Interesting that Button shares the same view as me that he doesn't necessarily think that Vettel is any better at not making mistakes. "It might show he now has inner strength and doesn't make mistakes any more – but nobody knows."

The only time a driver overtook him at the start is the only race he lost. His race strategy was compromised for the first time as well and had no luxuries in it as if he had to three stop, he would have had to overtake Lewis on track. If Webber can beat him in qualifying then we could see the gap being cut further by other drivers as he will no longer be protected in the clean air and having luxuries such as not having other drivers staying on the back of him due to DRS zone and also not having to wear out tyres trying to pass and defend.

[Sakae]

Sport Jenson Button Jenson Button: Mark Webber can help cut Sebastian Vettel's F1 lead

How? Drown him in Champagne on the podium?

Edited by Sakae, 09 May 2011 - 23:36.

[BennyJohnson]

You've gone to a different planet as far as I'm concerned. But then that's what is required to try and prove Vettel to be better than any other driver is currently right now in F1 when there is no proof whatsoever.

See, again, you're just being biased to your favourite driver, because by that omission, there is no proof that Hamilton or Alonso are any better than Vettel.

They havn't been in the same circumstances he has, and they've all done impressive things in their own way.

If you're going to argue that I can't physically prove that Vettel is in the same class because of the circumstances surrounding his championship, you've got no argument at all.

Fortunately, intelligent people can understand why certain driver's get rated higher than others, because a great driver can lead the monaco GP from start to finish with 4 safety cars. Because a great driver can out qualify his teammate by 8 tenths of a second. Because a great driver will not only take advantage of a quick car, but make it look as if the he can sit at the front of the race and coast.

Truely, you come up with all these bullshit arguments about why he's not the best or not in the same league, simply by trying to discredit what other people say.

I feel sorry for you pal, because you don't have to be on Mars to understand why Vettel is outperforming everyone else right now, you just have to watch the races every sunday and if you're that convinced that he's not, you must be covering your eyes when you watch them.

[Mandzipop]

I know he won it and I applaud him for doing so. He did take advantage of that situation but did not in 2009 and managed to win by a whisker in 2010. He has started 2011 in the fashion that Jenson Button did, will he be able to match Button's 6 out of 7 victories from the races at the beginning of the season. He has yet to show that he is a class above Jenson yet as he got beaten by him to the 2009 title and he did not have that big of an advantage at the start of the season as many would like you to believe. The RB5 was a car which was 2nd or best for most of the season while the Brawn car was on the decline and sometimes not even the 3rd best car. Vettel is matching / beating Jensons start of the season so far but with an even more dominant car you must admit and usually with a consistent gap to the other top teams. I think Hamilton could win in a Mercedes certainly after hearing that they have a big upgrades coming for the next race and maybe Nico will get his first race win. He was a tenth off Webbers qualy time and if the big upgrades improve qualifying and race pace then as long as Red Bull don't hugely improve he could well have a good chance as long as things don't fall into place for Vettel like in China.


I remember that, forget to post it before and I think Hamilton showed his mental toughness by not doing anything daft by trying to overtake Vettel. Glock never helped Hamilton win, he helped Massa have a chance of winning by taking a gamble on tyres.

All I will say to that is that Vettel didn't have the experience that Jenson had.

If you look, season after season Vettel has matured. That applies for all drivers. Therefore Butto had the advantage of not being young and impetuous like Vettel was. Also Button had no mechanical failures unlike Vettel did. He was thrown in at the deep end at the age of 21 in his 2nd full year of F1. A bit of over-enthusiasm due to age and mechanical retirements cost him the championship. In 2010 he lost a lot of points again to mechanical retirements and about as many to most others again to over-enthusiasm, which made him sulk a bit at times. But he grew up over the course of the season. Like in 2009 he learned from his mistakes and they weren't repeated.

What we see now is not a is someone who has made many mistakes but is learning from them. The mistake only happens once and is not repeated. That has been a characteristic over his career in F1. He is now in a position with the car to take the approach of not over-achieve. Do what is necessary to gain the maximum points. That is the approach Alonso takes. He didn't need to take a 4th stop in Turkey, he'd have still won the race according to Pirelli. He didn't make the call, but it was just in case of a safety car. Go back to Monaco 2009 where he used to eat the tyre's up. He is now brilliant at tyre management. He was last year, think back to Monza where he did all but 1 lap on the same set of tyres.

He does deserve to be up there. He hasn't shown the racecraft as much as others. But the skill he does have is to learn from his mistakes. He's changed a lot. He looks after the car now and does what he has to but doesnt push it any more than he needs to. That shows that he has different skills to Alonso and Hamilton. They all have their own skills and are all great to watch. Hamilton and Alonso are more entertaining to watch, but it does not make them better drivers. Everyone can do te same job but sme are better in other areas than others. It applies to F1 too.

[genespleen]

Is Vettel in a class with Hamilton and Alonso? Too soon to tell.
(Is Hamilton in a class with Alonso? Too soon to tell.)
Is Alonso in a class with "Alonso"? Jury's out on that one.

[hotstickyslick]

See, again, you're just being biased to your favourite driver,

What makes him my favourite driver then?

because by that omission, there is no proof that Hamilton or Alonso are any better than Vettel.

And when have I denied that?

They havn't been in the same circumstances he has, and they've all done impressive things in their own way.

If you're going to argue that I can't physically prove that Vettel is in the same class because of the circumstances surrounding his championship, you've got no argument at all.

I do, because as you yourself have admitted, there circumstances have been different.

Fortunately, intelligent people can understand why certain driver's get rated higher than others,

So that means I'm unintelligent? Thanks, thanks for making it personal, that really helps you.

because a great driver can lead the monaco GP from start to finish with 4 safety cars. Because a great driver can out qualify his teammate by 8 tenths of a second. Because a great driver will not only take advantage of a quick car, but make it look as if the he can sit at the front of the race and coast.

Well my definition of a truly great driver is one who can adapt to different circumstances, situations and conditions, and there aren't many. There are alot of drivers who can occasionally be sublime in their performances, but only if certain conditions are met. Is Vettel the first example or the second example? No one knows yet.

Truely, you come up with all these bullshit arguments about why he's not the best or not in the same league, simply by trying to discredit what other people say.

This garbage is getting old.

I feel sorry for you pal, because you don't have to be on Mars to understand why Vettel is outperforming everyone else right now, you just have to watch the races every sunday and if you're that convinced that he's not, you must be covering your eyes when you watch them.

Is there a laughing while head shaking emoticon I can use right now? Because that's what I feel like doing. Well I like using 2004 and 2005 to show as an example of where I'm coming from. I understood why Schumacher dominated in 2004, and I understood why he didn't in 2005.

I guess the fanatics will always jump to their most favoured conclusions first.

[robefc]

He's changed a lot. He looks after the car now and does what he has to but doesnt push it any more than he needs to. That shows that he has different skills to Alonso and Hamilton.

I liked most of your post but I have to disagree with this, what it shows is that vettel is in a position to look after his car. Lewis and fred are quite capable of looking after their cars when cruising at the front too.

[DILLIGAF]

;)

Seeing forward can be deceptive...

Touche!!

[DILLIGAF]

haha! I can answer that! It's really simple, really. They have a favorite driver in "X" car which cannot beat this other driver in the "Y" car, hence, "Y" car must be far superior if my driver can't beat that crappy driver in the dominating car!!!! It takes lots and lots of Formula 1 knowledge to figure that out, but, it makes perfect Formula 1 sense!!!!!!

And the cigar goes to Birelman!!

[Birelman]

I didn't get that impression.


Not enough evidently.


And how? There isn't a magical window in the conditions of the track where car differences are nullified. Each car will always behave and perform uniquely in any condition. That's one of the beauties of F1. If F1 was a spec series, I'd agree with you.



A world championship car and a world championship team can have it's shortcomings in areas, areas where not so good cars and teams can shine with Brazil 2008 being an example of this for McLaren.

The McLaren of that year while quick, was particularly difficult to drive and required a certain driving style to get the most out of it as shown by Kovalainen's smoother driving style killing the tyres too quickly. It's shortcomings was definitely in tyre wear, particularly on intermediate tyres when the track conditions started drying, evidence of this being in Silverstone when Kovalainen wore his rear tyres out so much that he spun several times and when the performance from Hamilton's tyres went off at Monza, the same race where Hamilton was originally on a one stopper but the team believed more rain was coming so they gave him extremes instead of intermediates. Brazil was more about McLaren pitting Hamilton too early for inters, and while the drivers who stayed out on slicks were still posting fast lap times, Hamilton was out there floundering on hot treads.

There are more examples of your perceived God-like team and car screwing up, but I thought that was enough.


I didn't claim that, but it certainly looked pretty handy didn't it? Remember Fuji 2007? Monaco 2008?


Why unlikely?


No


Um, for sure he's had great wet weather performances, but I don't see how it makes the differences between their cars any clearer. You could say that Vettel's cars have always been the best in the wet and that he just failed to drive it to its potential, but then there is no proof of that so I'm not going to bother. My question is why are you even bothering? Why believe something without any proof to back it up?

OMFG dude! you say this as if the Toro Rosso is, and has been the class of the field in Wet weather, that's a pretty outrageous claim!! lol You claim that Fuji 07, and Monaco 08 are proof that it's a demon in the wet, but then fail to consider the other denominational factor of who was driving it. You not only make this outrageous claim that the Toro Rosso is the best car in the wet but go as far as to claim Hamilton's McLaren somehow becomes an HRT in the wet in that race, and have the balls to lecture me about different conditions, car's characteristics, and yet, claim that an event that happened to ANOTHER DRIVER in ANOTHER TRACK, under DIFFERENT CONDITIONS is proof that your speculation is true!

You presume to lecture me, yet, I bet you've never even set your left cheek in a racing car, by the outrageous things you write. Let me tell you something, I have actually RACED some of the drivers that you DISCUSS in this forum, I know a thing or two about motorsport, so, don't presume to lecture me.

Up until this point, I have been really nice to you, giving you the benefit of the doubt, but, Just the slightest racing knowledge will make you understand that Toro Rosso, in no way is a match for Hamilton's McLaren, not in the 08 Brazilian GP, and that it takes a special kind of talent to do what Vettel had done in that car.

Why unlikely? do you even understand Formula 1? or motorsport in general? you claim you account for car performance difference yet fail to see it the other way around. You talk about that Toro Rosso as if it were the class of the field, and have the gutts to stand by this speculation that you have. I'd like to see you discuss Formula 1 with David Coulthard and have this conversation with him, I think you might send him to the hospital gasping for air from the laughter.

[BennyJohnson]

And when have I denied that?

So that means I'm unintelligent? Thanks, thanks for making it personal, that really helps you.

Well if you're not denying that Hamilton and Alonso aren't better, then we're in a semi-state of agreement.

Not necessarily, if you can see how driver's can be rated differently regardless of what car and which circumstances they are in, then you're not apart of that unintelligent group that cannot distinguish the former.

Edited by BennyJohnson, 10 May 2011 - 02:05.

[Flyhigh]

They are all 3 great drivers who will problably end up their careers as multi champion winners, but I would put Hamilton slightly above. Hamilton has just shown me more, he has show me pratically everything I could possibly want from a racing driver. To have the absolute raw speed to race ahead from pole when the cars is good enough to have outstanding race craft and come from behind when the car is not. Not and not only that let's be honest, if you were to make a season Highlight, if we are talking about just great moves, Hamilton has had far more material. So to me he has the ulitmate combination of raw speed and racecraft. The only thing Hamilton can improve is on cutting mistakes, but even so he is Senna like in this way also, where his mistakes are in taking great chances in order to be great.

One thing I find curious here, is the drivers opinion swings. Massa is nowhere to be mention now? only because he had a below par season last year. If this thread was going on in 2009 Massa would be right there maybe not at the very top, but now he is not mention anymore, not even as a great driver. it goes to show that you are as good as your last race or season too.

[Flyhigh]

He definitely is a great overtaker ... But the point was abt remembering one , which is subjective.
I honestly dont think that any one stands out from the multitude of his overtakes... For me anŷway...

And as I said - what does it matter ? You dont get points for overtaking... Start 10th and finish 2nd is still worse than start 1st and finish 1st with the odd overtake of an out of position car.
Spectacular is only rewarded among fans not where it counts... And I am afraid -Seb isnt bothered to prove sceptics right. He is bothered with winning the title in the most boring way possible.

In fact - as a Seb fan , now I want the "spectacular" drivers to do something to stop the juggernaut. Honest!

I know is not so easy to see it this way, since we all like to think the we are following a very strict serious competition, but F1 in the end of the day is entertainment also, is a show of skill, a circus if you will which it used to be call. And there is no better entertainner on the grid than Hamilton. So to say that it doesn't count at all, is kind of overlooking it, in my opinion. If it wasn't entertaining the sport would not exist in the end of the day. So let's give some credit to that ;)

Edited by Flyhigh, 10 May 2011 - 04:37.

[flyer121]

I take it you are being sarcastic. Anyway I'm not too suprised by DC (Red Bull) but Brundle is sometimes failing to see the bigger picture. Even on his onboard comparison between Jenson and Lewis, Lewis was ahead of Button in the corners he praised Button's approach which ended up not being faster. He is also mistaking the DRS being the main reason for overtaking being sometimes too easy, it is greatly the tyres. Good to see drivers know this, only Webber has said overtaking is easy but obviously it is with newer tyres and a better car. Alonso and Hamilton have said it is not that easy and Alonso has said it is the tyres causing most of it. I think if we had the DRS and Kers last year then we could see more overtakes but being less easy but more competitive and give the guy defending a better chance.

Anyway I'm sure Murray Walker and Jake Humphrey is not geing too easily convinced that Vettel is pulling out the advantage by himself. He is beating his team mate like a lot of other people. Luckily for him his car is a dominant car that has about over half a second in qualifying and if practice and race times are read into, also the fastest race car even using Webbers time. Like I said before if what Vettel is doing is exceptional, then the car is most likely not that dominant (It will be interesting to see if he can match what Button did at the start of 2009). Lewis is beating Vettels team mate already but teams such as Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren got it in there head their car is slower and not their drivers if it is Vettel pulling out the advantage himself.

Jake Humphrey
Murray Walker

McLaren01 I have to say that your posts amuse me no end ... even if I don't agree with most of what is written.

About the Jense / Lewis comparison - MB praised JB early on in the lap but after halfway point it was Lewis all the way... He was fawning over Lewis in the last 3 corners.

I especially love the part where you believe Lewis and Alonso and simply discard what Webber/ Button said about overtaking/DRS.

And generally speaking I wouldnt put Jake as a particularly knowledgeable guy as far as technical racing is considered. Murray will know more but MB / DC are definitely more pertinent.

[flyer121]

I know is not so easy to see it this way, since we all like to think the we are following a very strict serious competition, but F1 in the end of the day is entertainment also, is a show of skill, a circus if you will which it used to be call. And there is no better entertainner on the grid than Hamilton. So to say that it doesn't count at all, is kind of overlooking it, in my opinion. If it wasn't entertaining the sport would not exist in the end of the day. So let's give some credit to that ;)

I do give him credit for his overtaking prowess ...
But I dont judge Vettel by that yardstick as some here do.

[velgajski1]

They are all 3 great drivers who will problably end up their careers as multi champion winners, but I would put Hamilton slightly above. Hamilton has just shown me more, he has show me pratically everything I could possibly want from a racing driver. To have the absolute raw speed to race ahead from pole when the cars is good enough to have outstanding race craft and come from behind when the car is not. Not and not only that let's be honest, if you were to make a season Highlight, if we are talking about just great moves, Hamilton has had far more material. So to me he has the ulitmate combination of raw speed and racecraft. The only thing Hamilton can improve is on cutting mistakes, but even so he is Senna like in this way also, where his mistakes are in taking great chances in order to be great.

One thing I find curious here, is the drivers opinion swings. Massa is nowhere to be mention now? only because he had a below par season last year. If this thread was going on in 2009 Massa would be right there maybe not at the very top, but now he is not mention anymore, not even as a great driver. it goes to show that you are as good as your last race or season too.

One thing that amazes with all three drivers is that in most races they will have outstanding pace. Very rare occasions are when one of those seem severely off-pace. Remember Malaysia this season when Hamilton was off-pace - everyone was like - what the hell is going on? While for most other drivers - even champions like Button - not having good pace is a frequent occurance.

Vettel definitely looks best of those at current point, with least mistakes - but of course - car advantage, even if its a small one helps reducing those a lot, so it will be interesting to see how he fares in second best car for example. In 2009., I was not at all impressed, but I'm quite convinced he improved a lot already and would be much more dangerous in 2nd best car than he was in 2009.

[Group B]

All I will say to that is that Vettel didn't have the experience that Jenson had.

If you look, season after season Vettel has matured. That applies for all drivers. Therefore Butto had the advantage of not being young and impetuous like Vettel was. Also Button had no mechanical failures unlike Vettel did. He was thrown in at the deep end at the age of 21 in his 2nd full year of F1. A bit of over-enthusiasm due to age and mechanical retirements cost him the championship. In 2010 he lost a lot of points again to mechanical retirements and about as many to most others again to over-enthusiasm, which made him sulk a bit at times. But he grew up over the course of the season. Like in 2009 he learned from his mistakes and they weren't repeated.

What we see now is not a is someone who has made many mistakes but is learning from them. The mistake only happens once and is not repeated. That has been a characteristic over his career in F1. He is now in a position with the car to take the approach of not over-achieve. Do what is necessary to gain the maximum points. That is the approach Alonso takes. He didn't need to take a 4th stop in Turkey, he'd have still won the race according to Pirelli. He didn't make the call, but it was just in case of a safety car. Go back to Monaco 2009 where he used to eat the tyre's up. He is now brilliant at tyre management. He was last year, think back to Monza where he did all but 1 lap on the same set of tyres.

He does deserve to be up there. He hasn't shown the racecraft as much as others. But the skill he does have is to learn from his mistakes. He's changed a lot. He looks after the car now and does what he has to but doesnt push it any more than he needs to. That shows that he has different skills to Alonso and Hamilton. They all have their own skills and are all great to watch. Hamilton and Alonso are more entertaining to watch, but it does not make them better drivers. Everyone can do te same job but sme are better in other areas than others. It applies to F1 too.

[flyer121]

...
Why unlikely?
...

It is definitely "unlikely" ...
Now STR may by some rare chance of fate could ve been better but it was UNLIKELY.
What would Lewis have chosen if given a chance before his WDC deciding race? McLaren !
We can argue as much as we like to make Lewis look good but fact is fact.

[Group B]

One thing I find curious here, is the drivers opinion swings. Massa is nowhere to be mention now? only because he had a below par season last year. If this thread was going on in 2009 Massa would be right there maybe not at the very top, but now he is not mention anymore, not even as a great driver. it goes to show that you are as good as your last race or season too.

Some people's opinions are very fickle: I watched this poll from the start, slowly the gap in favour of 'no' opened up until it is 44 or 45 a few weeks back, but now it's gradually reducing, to 26 right now. I imaging if you started this poll from fresh today it would be around 65/35 in favour of 'yes'.

[sosidge]

At the end of the day the only real guide we have to a drivers ability is his performance against his teammates, and even that has a number of caveats.

Unfortunately when it comes to judging Vettel there is such a large body of haters on this board that will do all they can to obscure any good performances by him and exaggerate any poor performances.

So when he wins - it's the car.

When he beats Webber - it's either the car or team favouritism

When he overtakes people - it's the car.

etc etc.

It's the same with Alonso - except with Fernando, his success is entirely due to cheating.

Whereas when Lewis Hamilton has a good car, the success is down to him. And when Lewis Hamilton cheats, it's the regulations that are wrong.

So what point in having a debate when the terms of debate are so skewed in favour of which group of fanboys can make the biggest noise?

[flyer121]

What are you talking about dude? proof? what is it that you want me to prove? I'm here simply stating my opinion, not prove anything to anybody, you either like what I write or you don't, agree, or disagree, I don't intend to prove anything to anybody.

To get back to my original point which has been diverted a bit......Yes there are car differences, and yes, I take that into account. There are certain circumstances where a driver can me a difference, and yes, Brasil 08 was one of those. Now, there are a few things that we know for a fact, that Lewis was driving a World Championship contending McLaren, that McLaren is one of the best teams in Formula 1 (regardless of where they sit in the standings in a particular year), that Hamilton is one heck of a racer, and that Hamilton is a demon in the wet, can we agree on this? Now, here comes little ole Vettel, (If it makes you happy, I'll remind us all it's a Newey design STR, so was the 06, 07 and 08, RBR, didn't see them lighting up the boards, but anyway...) Now, this Toro Rosso you claim was really good in the wet, and it very well could be (IMO no it wasn't as great as all that) but even if it was as good, or even better than the McLaren, however unlikely, Hamilton, being the demon that he is in the wet would just dust off this young crappy driver in the far superior STR, because, we all know, that Hamilton can make the difference in the wet. Now, the only way that wouldn't be, is if the driver driving the car which was better than him was driving at least close to the level of Hamilton in the far superior and dominating STR so that the car difference would negate, or neutralize Hamilton's superior driving in the wet, otherwise Hamilton would still win, you understand this?

You see, you keep saying the Toro Rosso was better than the McLaren in the conditions, but you fail to account for the fact that Hamilton thrives in those conditions.

Loved those bits

[Zava]

Some people's opinions are very fickle: I watched this poll from the start, slowly the gap in favour of 'no' opened up until it is 44 or 45 a few weeks back, but now it's gradually reducing, to 26 right now. I imaging if you started this poll from fresh today it would be around 65/35 in favour of 'yes'.

also the poll is flawed, a lot of "no" vote means "no, he is a class higher".

[flyer121]

At the end of the day the only real guide we have to a drivers ability is his performance against his teammates, and even that has a number of caveats.

Unfortunately when it comes to judging Vettel there is such a large body of haters on this board that will do all they can to obscure any good performances by him and exaggerate any poor performances.

So when he wins - it's the car.

When he beats Webber - it's either the car or team favouritism

When he overtakes people - it's the car.

etc etc.

It's the same with Alonso - except with Fernando, his success is entirely due to cheating.

Whereas when Lewis Hamilton has a good car, the success is down to him. And when Lewis Hamilton cheats, it's the regulations that are wrong.

So what point in having a debate when the terms of debate are so skewed in favour of which group of fanboys can make the biggest noise?

I would ve agreed on most of the points a few months back...

But I have changed my opinion - Just look at this poll results. I never would ve thought people on the board will run him this close.

[sosidge]

I would ve agreed on most of the points a few months back...

But I have changed my opinion - Just look at this poll results. I never would ve thought people on the board will run him this close.

I suppose the beauty of a poll is that people do not have to explain their preference, they simply state it.

[tifosiMac]

At the end of the day the only real guide we have to a drivers ability is his performance against his teammates, and even that has a number of caveats.

Unfortunately when it comes to judging Vettel there is such a large body of haters on this board that will do all they can to obscure any good performances by him and exaggerate any poor performances.

So when he wins - it's the car.

When he beats Webber - it's either the car or team favouritism

When he overtakes people - it's the car.

etc etc.

It's the same with Alonso - except with Fernando, his success is entirely due to cheating.

Whereas when Lewis Hamilton has a good car, the success is down to him. And when Lewis Hamilton cheats, it's the regulations that are wrong.

So what point in having a debate when the terms of debate are so skewed in favour of which group of fanboys can make the biggest noise?

Of course you have stated your opinion above in such an impartial and unbiased way that sets you apart from the 'fanboys' as you call them. There is so much pot calling the kettle black in some of these statements its unreal.

[DILLIGAF]

Of course you have stated your opinion above in such an impartial and unbiased way that sets you apart from the 'fanboys' as you call them. There is so much pot calling the kettle black in some of these statements its unreal.

QFT

[sosidge]

QFT

I thought you were a Vettel fan DILLIGAF? Why are you thumbing up the Macca supporters who would have us believe it is all in the car?

[undersquare]

Some people's opinions are very fickle: I watched this poll from the start, slowly the gap in favour of 'no' opened up until it is 44 or 45 a few weeks back, but now it's gradually reducing, to 26 right now. I imaging if you started this poll from fresh today it would be around 65/35 in favour of 'yes'.

Why is it fickle and not people basing their opinions on the evidence, as it mounts up?

[hotstickyslick]

OMFG dude! you say this as if the Toro Rosso is, and has been the class of the field in Wet weather, that's a pretty outrageous claim!!

It could be, right? I mean it's not like you have anything to prove that it wasn't. That doesn't mean I'm implying that it is though, just so you don't have a heart attack.

lol You claim that Fuji 07, and Monaco 08 are proof that it's a demon in the wet,

I didn't, I said it looked handy. If you actually read what I wrote I doubt you'd be so confused right now.
but then fail to consider the other denominational factor of who was driving it.
Why does that matter? You're putting way too much emphasis on the driver than the car, that's the problem wit hyou.

You not only make this outrageous claim that the Toro Rosso is the best car in the wet

Do you hear voices in your head or something?

but go as far as to claim Hamilton's McLaren somehow becomes an HRT in the wet in that race,

Is there a point to this if you keep putting words into my mouth?

and have the balls to lecture me about different conditions, car's characteristics, and yet, claim that an event that happened to ANOTHER DRIVER in ANOTHER TRACK, under DIFFERENT CONDITIONS is proof that your speculation is true!

Which is silly, because I never called it proof. I was suggesting that it could be used as evidence to prove that the RB/TR chassis was good in the wet. Get it yet?

You presume to lecture me, yet, I bet you've never even set your left cheek in a racing car, by the outrageous things you write. Let me tell you something, I have actually RACED some of the drivers that you DISCUSS in this forum, I know a thing or two about motorsport, so, don't presume to lecture me.

So why is your view so simplistic? There are a huge amount of variables involved in F1, yet you in your own mind have ignored this fact and have come to premature conclusions which you get angry about if they're questioned.

Up until this point, I have been really nice to you, giving you the benefit of the doubt, but, Just the slightest racing knowledge will make you understand that Toro Rosso, in no way is a match for Hamilton's McLaren,

Nice? That's ridiculous. All you've been doing is ignoring facts and accusing me of posting claims which I have not. Your reading comprehension is appalling.

Racing knowledge is knowing two different F1 cars from the inside out? Don't pretend like you've driven both of them to know, you haven't. And there hasn't been a single driver who has driven the both of them to know for a fact, or do you know any better?

And just so you don't hyperventilate, I do believe the McLaren was quicker than the Toro Rosso in dry conditions at least. But then, like you, I have nothing to prove it for sure.

not in the 08 Brazilian GP, and that it takes a special kind of talent to do what Vettel had done in that car.

Overly simplistic view on things that are complex. If I should use your logic then Kubica is by far better than the both of them, but then you'll ignore that it seems...

Why unlikely? do you even understand Formula 1? or motorsport in general? you claim you account for car performance difference yet fail to see it the other way around. You talk about that Toro Rosso as if it were the class of the field,

And that's your problem, you're the one going absolutely ape over things I haven't said. Are you going to stop it or what?

and have the gutts to stand by this speculation that you have. I'd like to see you discuss Formula 1 with David Coulthard and have this conversation with him, I think you might send him to the hospital gasping for air from the laughter.

Is there anything wrong with not coming to conclusions early until there is enough evidence available?

[Jordana]

Being honest, I don't care about classes or about other drivers as long as Vettel keeps winning...

And I would be very happy if at the end of this season, he wins the championship again.

Because, at the end... It's all about who gets the crown!

[tifosiMac]

I thought you were a Vettel fan DILLIGAF? Why are you thumbing up the Macca supporters who would have us believe it is all in the car?

DILLIGAF was not quoting a Macca supporter who states its all to do with the car, he quoted me. My post was not pro any team and your response has only proved my point as you seem to be dead against something you are openly doing in this thread. Accusing people of being one sided and biased can only be taken seriously if you don't actually do it yourself.

[Group B]

Why is it fickle and not people basing their opinions on the evidence, as it mounts up?

Personally I don't believe a driver improves vastly in two races, nor do I believe SV's performances in the last two races were vastly better than those at the end of last year, yet the voting pattern on this thread has changed big time in that period. Of course there's nothing wrong with basing your opinion as the evidence mounts up, and no doubt some people were on the edge of yes/no and have now been tipped to 'yes', but the sharpness of voting change suggests several can be persuaded by just a couple of dominent weekends and may well switch back with a couple of poor ones.

[sosidge]

DILLIGAF was not quoting a Macca supporter who states its all to do with the car, he quoted me. My post was not pro any team and your response has only proved my point as you seem to be dead against something you are openly doing in this thread. Accusing people of being one sided and biased can only be taken seriously if you don't actually do it yourself.

I think if you read my post it was not displaying a personal bias, it was reflecting a tendency towards bias on the board. Yet you chose to take it very personally.

[tifosiMac]

I think if you read my post it was not displaying a personal bias, it was reflecting a tendency towards bias on the board. Yet you chose to take it very personally.

Yet you criticized a Vettel fan for apparently giving the thumbs up to a Macca supporter? So are you OK with others being biased as long as they are not biased towards anything McLaren in that sense? Unfortunately you contradicted yourself within a matter of posts and no I didn't take it personally.

[sosidge]

Yet you criticized a Vettel fan for apparently giving the thumbs up to a Macca supporter? So are you OK with others being biased as long as they are not biased towards anything McLaren in that sense? Unfortunately you contradicted yourself within a matter of posts and no I didn't take it personally.

Oh, DILLIGAF is a special case. He is a Webber fan masquerading as a Vettel fan. He's just waiting for his moment to stick the knife in.

[flyer121]

Oh, DILLIGAF is a special case. He is a Webber fan masquerading as a Vettel fan. He's just waiting for his moment to stick the knife in.

Oh dear ...
You are just proving tifosiMac right by saying these things.

Btw Dilli was never a typical Webber fanboy/Vettel hater combo as you are saying.
Its more a case of you cant believe how one can like both.

[DILLIGAF]

I thought you were a Vettel fan DILLIGAF? Why are you thumbing up the Macca supporters who would have us believe it is all in the car?

Nothing to do with me being a Vettel fan. I'm a fan but not a completely biased one. I was simply agreeing with tifosiMac that your post reeks of the same bias you accuse others of.

Just re-read your own comment about Alonso- "It's the same with Alonso - except with Fernando, his success is entirely due to cheating."

It's rather hypocritical of you to say there are all these Vettel haters when you make stupid comments like that. Cut out the cheap shots & maybe you can have reasonable debates with fans of other drivers.

[DILLIGAF]

DILLIGAF was not quoting a Macca supporter who states its all to do with the car, he quoted me. My post was not pro any team and your response has only proved my point as you seem to be dead against something you are openly doing in this thread. Accusing people of being one sided and biased can only be taken seriously if you don't actually do it yourself.

And again i can only say By the way tifosiMac, i don't even know which driver you support!!

Edited by DILLIGAF, 10 May 2011 - 12:37.