1459 replies to this topic

[DILLIGAF]

I think if you read my post it was not displaying a personal bias, it was reflecting a tendency towards bias on the board. Yet you chose to take it very personally.

Bollocks. You are as biased towards Seb as any Hamilton or Alonso fan is to their driver & one only has to look at your post history to see it.

[DILLIGAF]

Oh dear ...
You are just proving tifosiMac right by saying these things.

Btw Dilli was never a typical Webber fanboy/Vettel hater combo as you are saying.
Its more a case of you cant believe how one can like both.

Thanks flyer. I find it hard to hate any driver. I prefer some to others but why bother with the hate? Being an Aussie I will admit to liking Webber more & to maybe jumping to his defense a bit more when he is attacked & continually written off as a hack. But it's no secret that i like Seb as a driver, admire his talents & achievements. If sosidge bothered to read through this thread he'd see that i rate Seb in the same class as Fred & Lewis & have defended that belief in this ongoing debate.

In fairness to sosidge i can't accuse him of being a "special" case or of masquerading as a Webber or Alonso fan.

[McLarenNo1]

McLaren01 I have to say that your posts amuse me no end ... even if I don't agree with most of what is written.

About the Jense / Lewis comparison - MB praised JB early on in the lap but after halfway point it was Lewis all the way... He was fawning over Lewis in the last 3 corners.

I especially love the part where you believe Lewis and Alonso and simply discard what Webber/ Button said about overtaking/DRS.

And generally speaking I wouldnt put Jake as a particularly knowledgeable guy as far as technical racing is considered. Murray will know more but MB / DC are definitely more pertinent.

It is true though that Lewis was ahead and he did not fawn over Lewis in the last 3 corners. Maybe the last corner and middle part of the lap. I guess he can't do a one sided comparison but he should mention who is ahead even if he thinks an approach is better.

I only disregarded what Webber said, as team principals and drivers have said it is still hard to overtake with DRS but tyres are causing the biggest difference. I didn't disregard what Button said as I didn't even mention him then. As Lewis says, his car is too quick when asked about Webber saying overtaking is too easy. Mark would have overtaken people without the DRS as his cornering speed was higher with a better car and fresh tyres that added with the DRS made it too easy. Other cars however with less downforce don't have as good cornering speed and even with Kers and DRS are not finding it easy to overtake. Mark was finding it easy even without Kers.

All Jake was mentioning is that McLaren are doing as well as their car allows. You can see that DC and MB are quick to sing praises about drivers when things are going well. However then reality sinks back in, for example Perez. I can see in a few years time if Vettel moves to Ferrari with Alonso being there, maybe even early as 2014 if new regulations are not suiting Red Bull and they allow him to go.
He might be a double and triple world champion at the time brimming with confidence but then gets destroyed in qualiying and race by Alonso. That won't go down to well but if Vettel wins that battle he could down as the greatest in his generation.

However here is an example of a german driver who people had their doubts about. Schumacher was only just a bit faster than Barichello in his first career with No 1 status and an era where tyres and the car was developed especially for him. In an equal designed car Nico has shown he has the beating of Michael and this confirms what many have thought before that he was not the fastest driver but his team dominance was a large help in his success. This could happen to Vettel quite easily that he is shown up but at his peak of his career and have no excuse of old age. We will only ever know when Alonso and Vettel are in the same car but I think Nico has the beating of Sebastian if they go for him if Mark retires next year.

I've yet to see if Vettel is in Button's class though. Vettel could not beat him in 2009. This year he is in a more dominant car but better still the regulations are in favour for the pole sitter due to tyres being crucial that not being held up will limit damaging of tyres. I think Webber is adapting slower to Vettel as he is being out qualified by slower cars but no doubt he will come back at one stage and that might be next race. Funny that last season, he used to say he was just not good enough and highly critical of himself if he got out qualified by less than a tenth but this season he is far away and praises Vettel. I think he knows he has to really step up his game as he is seriously underperforming as if he is not then the Red Bull is not the dominant car people talk about.

People are at this stage "Wow, Vettel is the best" but he is not doing any better than his approach really last season. Reliability and crashes halted his progess but his dominance is nothing different from 2010. People are thinking Vettel has gone up a level but I don't think he has. You see in his whole career in F1 he has only won a race that he has been leading into the first corner apart from Abu Dhabi 2009 but Lewis retired that race so it is hardly to write home about. This year again he has failed to show the ability to win without leading into the first corner. A hurdle he has yet to overcome in F1. His racecraft is still in doubt, he is a good defender though but his overtaking usually looks like he will drive into someone than go around them (Shame Nico overtook Webber as otherwise we could have seen an interesting battle between Vettel and Webber). He has won 3 out of 4 races this season. Can he match Button's 6 out of 7?

Every other team has been talking about catching Red Bull since half way through the 2009 season and no one has caught up. Vettel has enjoyed a bigger car advantage than Alonso and Hamilton ever have in the ones they won the championship. The RB6 had the chance of winning at least 90% of races last season if everything normal happened on the weekend. I don't think you can say that about the cars Lewis, Fernando and Jenson won the championship in. I don't think people should bring a driver level up if it is a class above the rest. For example, the Lotus drivers are not automatically on the same class or above a class and on another level if it is mainly their car being a lot greater than the Virgin F1 car. You have to look at the drivers careers to judge and Vettel being beaten by Paul gives doubt that he is not the best. If he dominated lower Formulas and team mates such as Paul, I don't think I and a lot of others will have this doubt.

Edited by McLarenNo1, 10 May 2011 - 13:06.

[engel]

This year he is in a more dominant car but better still the regulations are in favour for the pole sitter due to tyres being crucial that not being held up will limit damaging of tyres.

You must be watching a different sport then

[Kvothe]

DILLIGAF was not quoting a Macca supporter who states its all to do with the car, he quoted me. My post was not pro any team and your response has only proved my point as you seem to be dead against something you are openly doing in this thread. Accusing people of being one sided and biased can only be taken seriously if you don't actually do it yourself.

[McLarenNo1]

You must be watching a different sport then

I know for a fact I'm not. With the Kers, DRS and tyres it allows cars such as Red Bull to get past people better. Look at Singapore last year or Hungarian GP. Alonso could hold up Vettel. This year see Webber for example could get past Alonso due to fresher tyres and the DRS to take advantage, something a big plus for a dominant car that can fight it's way back up to position. Webber's charge through the field from 18th this year with last years tyres and without DRS would have made him struggle to get into the points but this year he gets on the podium.

DRS only works if you are in 1 second of each other. If a slower cars get in front of 2nd driver due to having a better start from the cleaner side of the grid, the driver who is first will have a big advantage due to the drivers behind will be fighting it out while a gap greater than 1 second can be easily created. 2nd and 3rd could chop and change while using the tyres harder to overtake. If you can dictate your pace and have others not reduce drag behind you then surely that is a greater advantage. You see Vettel could do a 3 stop and win due to the amount he saved in the tyres by being ahead and also pulling a gap. Surely that is a big advantage or am I the only one that thinks this and watching the wrong sport believing this?

Edited by McLarenNo1, 10 May 2011 - 13:26.

[flyer121]

I know for a fact I'm not. With the Kers, DRS and tyres it allows cars such as Red Bull to get past people better. Look at Singapore last year or Hungarian GP. Alonso could hold up Vettel. This year see Webber for example could get past Alonso due to fresher tyres and the DRS to take advantage, something a big plus for a dominant car that can fight it's way back up to position. Webber's charge through the field from 18th this year with last years tyres and without DRS would have made him struggle to get into the points but this year he gets on the podium.

DRS only works if you are in 1 second of each other. If a slower cars get in front of 2nd driver due to having a better start from the cleaner side of the grid, the driver who is first will have a big advantage due to the drivers behind will be fighting it out while a gap greater than 1 second can be easily created. 2nd and 3rd could chop and change while using the tyres harder to overtake. If you can dictate your pace and have others not reduce drag behind you then surely that is a greater advantage. You see Vettel could do a 3 stop and win due to the amount he saved in the tyres by being ahead and also pulling a gap. Surely that is a big advantage or am I the only one that thinks this and watching the wrong sport believing this?

While what you are saying is true -how will anyone come within a sec of Seb (on equal tyres) if he is half a sec clear of others over a single lap?
Pole position and clear air definitely help - no doubt .... But he is putting himself in that position on Saturdays.

[nbhb]

I know for a fact I'm not. With the Kers, DRS and tyres it allows cars such as Red Bull to get past people better. Look at Singapore last year or Hungarian GP. Alonso could hold up Vettel. This year see Webber for example could get past Alonso due to fresher tyres and the DRS to take advantage, something a big plus for a dominant car that can fight it's way back up to position. Webber's charge through the field from 18th this year with last years tyres and without DRS would have made him struggle to get into the points but this year he gets on the podium.

DRS only works if you are in 1 second of each other. If a slower cars get in front of 2nd driver due to having a better start from the cleaner side of the grid, the driver who is first will have a big advantage due to the drivers behind will be fighting it out while a gap greater than 1 second can be easily created. 2nd and 3rd could chop and change while using the tyres harder to overtake. If you can dictate your pace and have others not reduce drag behind you then surely that is a greater advantage. You see Vettel could do a 3 stop and win due to the amount he saved in the tyres by being ahead and also pulling a gap. Surely that is a big advantage or am I the only one that thinks this and watching the wrong sport believing this?

And that's what happened in Malaysia and Turkey. The only time Vettel was pushed by the 2nd slot man was Australia and after 12 laps Hamilton was closing to him like hell. Vettel is doing what Button did in 2009. With the best car easily winning from pole.

I'm not saying he is not in the same class as Alonso and Hamilton. Maybe he is, but with Newey serving him with a car that is above all the others he will not convince me.

Edited by nbhb, 10 May 2011 - 14:23.

[ArtShelley]

I believe I've underrated Seb previously. He's looking sensational this season - assured and lethal. In his current form, I think he's easily in the same class as Alonso and Lewis. I still maintain he would struggle, compared to the other two, if put under pressure in wheel to wheel combat. But it's true, who needs wheel to wheel skills, when you have a fast car and can utilise that to such great effect. He's making Webber look positively slow. In Seb's hands, the RB7 looks dominating. Much like the Brawn in Jenson's hand in the first half of the season.

[ForeverF1]

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