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Massa's days are numbered.......


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#101 Kraken

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 14:37

His driving yesterday was pretty good, not the best. He kept Button behind him until Button got annoyed and decided to take the shortcut. He also had an excellent start like the old Massa we knew. Unfortunately the strategy used didn't play out in his favor due to him struggling with the harder tires and not being able to do a two stop. I also think his days are numbered at Ferrari and wish he could return to his old self, but the accident did seem to have some negative effects.


If you want to totally sacrifice your race then pretty much any driver can keep another one behind them. The real skill is keeping someone behind you and maintaining the race pace. Losing that amount of time to those ahead and behind of you at the start of a 58 lap race is not the sign of someone who's tactically aware.

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#102 pinkypants

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 14:41

I thought he did quite well at the last GP, but cannot see him challenging for a championship ever again.

For that reason, I would like to see Perez or others in that 2nd Ferrari.

#103 as65p

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 17:54

If you want to totally sacrifice your race then pretty much any driver can keep another one behind them. The real skill is keeping someone behind you and maintaining the race pace. Losing that amount of time to those ahead and behind of you at the start of a 58 lap race is not the sign of someone who's tactically aware.


This. :up:

To the bigger picture: for obvious reasons we'll hear those 3 excuses forever: the accident, the teamorders, the tyres. In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is that Massa can't hold a candle to Alonso, at best he's what Kovalainnen was to Hamilton.

OTOH nobody else available is guaranteed to do a better job. But I bet as soon as the opportunity arises, Massa will have to make way. He's living on borrowed time.

I always felt anyway that in some weird way the accident saved his race seat at Ferrari, they could hardly sack him [instead of Räikönnen] while he was in recovery. I know that he extended his contract before that, yet a Ferrari contract doesn't automatically mean a race seat.

#104 F1Johnny

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 18:07

Unfortunately, I thought the same thing watching the race. I also suspect he knows that this is his last year at Ferrari, but he still has more to contribute to F1 and could end up at Williams or Sauber, maybe even Renault if Nick doesn't have a good season and Kubica does not return.

#105 DarthRonzo

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 20:27

I think Massa sold his racing soul to Ferrari.

In Australia Massa had a strange behaviour blocking Button until Alonso could recover his ground and caught them.
Then easily opened way to let Alonso pass.

Even Button found it very strange Massa's pace to be so so slow.

Edited by DarthRonzo, 29 March 2011 - 20:49.


#106 Madras

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 20:39

I think Massa sold his racing soul to Ferrari.

In Australia Massa had a strange behaviour blocking Button until Alonso could recover his ground and caught them.
Then easily opened was to let Alonso pass.

Even Button found it very strange Massa's pace to be so so slow.



I agree it was a bit strange, however Alonso wasnt catching them very quickly, and when Button went off track it was best for the team if Massa let Alonso through. And when he did Alonso pulled away.

#107 undersquare

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 20:40

Unless his contract contains performance clauses...


Could be, what do you think though, half points? I can't see a sweet spot for it, personally.

#108 Muz Bee

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 20:41

This. :up:

To the bigger picture: for obvious reasons we'll hear those 3 excuses forever: the accident, the teamorders, the tyres. In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is that Massa can't hold a candle to Alonso, at best he's what Kovalainnen was to Hamilton.

OTOH nobody else available is guaranteed to do a better job. But I bet as soon as the opportunity arises, Massa will have to make way. He's living on borrowed time.

I always felt anyway that in some weird way the accident saved his race seat at Ferrari, they could hardly sack him [instead of Räikönnen] while he was in recovery. I know that he extended his contract before that, yet a Ferrari contract doesn't automatically mean a race seat.

I think it goes beyond Massa's pace which on it's own is bad. His whole approach reeks of desperation. He is driving like a rookie, all over the road, blocking in practice, qualifying. I was only surprised by how well he defended in the first stint against Button. Later......

Since his return from injury Felipe has lacked precision and spacial awareness. He just drives terribly, it's horrible to watch because he once was very good.

#109 KavB

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 20:55

Massa is under threat of being replaced, but the pressure isn't as great as it was 12 months ago. Ferrari won't take Kubica without knowing whether he is the same driver or not. Why would they take that risk? If Kubica was healthy and able to drive then I'm certain Felipe would be gone by the end of the year.

Massa can only be under threat from Webber (Though he had an even worse weekend), Kobayashi, and a few other drivers. Somehow I don't see Kobayashi being picked even though he is brilliant.

Massa would have to screw up badly to get kicked out this year.

#110 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 20:59

06, 07 he had fully matured at at Ferrari and looked a top driver, in 08 he was amazing, 09 he had his accident, 10 he was **** on by his team. Now in 11 it seems like his career has come full circle, I think his low point was spinning out of the pits. It was like back to his early days of constant mistakes. He didn't do a bad job of holding up Button but letting Alonso past straight away mustve killed his motivation.

#111 VicR

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 21:21

Déjà vu.

Should Ferrari dump Massa?

Who will replace Massa ?

Zzzzzz...

#112 Ferrari2183

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 21:41

I agree it was a bit strange, however Alonso wasnt catching them very quickly, and when Button went off track it was best for the team if Massa let Alonso through. And when he did Alonso pulled away.

Didn't catch them very quickly? Once in clear air, from lap 6 to 8 he was closing in at a second per lap. After which he was in Buttons wake.

There was nothing strange except that Massa decided not to hinder Alonso and played the team game. Unless you are suggesting that he defend as hard against his team-mate and risk screw up Alonso race as he did Buttons.

Edit: spelling

Edited by Ferrari2183, 29 March 2011 - 21:44.


#113 pedrovski

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 21:50

It's clear that Massa has completely lost his motivation...the events of Hockenheim saw to that, although to be honest I thought he was on the way down before that. He cuts a rather miserable figure in the F1 paddock nowadays. I never rated Massa as a great driver but when he had a car that could qualify on the front row he could get the job done. Whenever he qualified in midfield however he was all at sea... Silverstone 2008 was one of the worst performances I have ever seen, he was an embarrassment that day. I don't think his loss of form has got anything to do with his accident...he is the same old Massa, he just does not have a dominant car any more and a far superior team-mate in Alonso. I do agree that Massa's days are numbered at Ferrari...even Smedley sounded as if he was running out of patience with him in Melbourne. Felipe Baby will always be the "nearly man" I'm afraid...World Champion for 20 seconds, as he never tires of reminding us.

:up:
Agree. He needs to find half a second to Alonso, all his focus should be finding 0.5 sec. But if you don't admit the problem then you can't fix it. The answer is in the telemetry somewhere, where he's losing time. Fooling himself with excuses like the tyres is not going to help him find the time he needs. All the other stuff with team orders is a consequence of that.

#114 ImDDAA

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 21:54

Doesn't Alonso require a lapdog to maintain harmony in the team? Massa fits the bill and he'll score some points if the car is good.

#115 undersquare

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:05

Massa is under threat of being replaced, but the pressure isn't as great as it was 12 months ago. Ferrari won't take Kubica without knowing whether he is the same driver or not. Why would they take that risk? If Kubica was healthy and able to drive then I'm certain Felipe would be gone by the end of the year.

Massa can only be under threat from Webber (Though he had an even worse weekend), Kobayashi, and a few other drivers. Somehow I don't see Kobayashi being picked even though he is brilliant.

Massa would have to screw up badly to get kicked out this year.


It's not a given that Kubi would leave Renault for Ferrari, with the cars as they are at the moment, especially when you factor in the teammates and lead driver prospects.

Ferrari should be looking at next year really, for me that means Hulkenberg, give him some more experience this year and then next year he'll be ready.

But most likely they'll carry on with Felipe and sniping at him, then drop someone in at the deep end next February.

#116 Hole

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:17

i think what happened at germany last year has squashed him :(


Yes. Because prior to Germany he was being very competitive... :rolleyes:

#117 Hole

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:20

I think he has lost his motivation.

He is not allowed to beat Alonso and because of this he is just going through the motions and putting in the basic levels of effort.

If he moved to another team I think he would improve.


He was allowed at Australia last year.




#118 prty

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 22:28

As the great man himself said and I quote:

"Drivers are just like overpaid employees."


I disagree. No one gives away money out of charity. If they are paid that much, it's either because they can produce results that otherwise would have to be produced by spending more on the car, because their work actually involves high risk (don't be fooled by the statistics, there is risk of a fatal crash in every race), or because marketing reasons. This is supply and demand.

#119 BlackCat

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 23:58

there are overpayd entertainers in many sports. NFL, anybody? falling balerinas in soccer?
back to topic - Massa would be regular top 10 finisher in IndyCar, i don't think he is much slower than Justin Wilson.

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#120 FigJam

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:02

The accident...he has not been the same since.

Massa, despite being erratic at times, has always been a very fast driver. In terms of raw pace, one of the quickest. He has his weaknesses and faults but you can never deny he was quick. You don't match...then outperform...Kimi Raikkonen over 3 seasons without being bloody quick.

As a complete package...he ain't Alonso...but give him a car he truly relates to and he will be just as quick, if not quicker (particularly over 1 lap). That's where his strength always was, which is why in 2008 he was very impressive. Right on it that season.

I just think his accident has destroyed his confidence and mentally he is struggling. Accidents can have a far bigger bearing on a drivers performance than is given credit IMO, especially if the driver is injured and the like.

Was Jacques Villeneuve ever the same after Melbourne 2001? Look at his performances and raw speed pre-2001 and post-2001. I noticed an edge, an edge that made him a top driver, had disappeared. He injured his back in that accident (never really spoken about...) and a marshall was tragically killed.

I think it was a major factor, not that Jacques would likely ever admit it. I feel the same of Massa.

#121 Menace

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:04

Massa and Raikkonen are on the same level.


:lol:

#122 Ricardo F1

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:08

I don't think that's the reason. He struggled with tyres last year, looks like he'll struggle with them this ; add to that he's now in a team where he's no longer the favored son (as he was on Schumacher's departure and Kimi's arrival) so things aren't being done around him. He's a decent driver, but he's driving in Alonso's team now.

#123 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:31

:lol:

2007 WDC
1st Raikkonen 110 pt
2nd Hamilton 109 pt

2008
1st Hamilton 98 pt
2nd Massa 97 pt

The difference is 1 pt. 1/97 or 1/110 = ~ 1 % -> i.e. difference is negligible -> i.e., they are equivalent

:wave:

#124 Xpat

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:23

Yes. Because prior to Germany he was being very competitive... :rolleyes:


He was very competitive at Germany until the team told him to not be competitive.

Remember the transmission from the pits?

"Alonso is filling his helmet with tears because he can't pass you. You know, like race car drivers pass people in races."
:rotfl:


#125 Hulkster

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:23

It suits Ferrari to have a second driver who is no threat to Alonso.

We've all seen how Alonso reacts to a challenge from a team mate, so for Ferrari it's probably not worth the hassle of giving a seat to someone who can compete with him, especially as they already know Alonso will deliver if they give him the car and focus their efforts on him.

We also should remember Ferrari won't have forgotten the Schumacher glory days when they focussed on one driver and basically pioneered the strategy of using the second driver as an assistant to the first, I'm sure they will look back on those days with fondness and many in the team will want to recreate them.

#126 PayasYouRace

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:41

2007 WDC
1st Raikkonen 110 pt
2nd Hamilton 109 pt

2008
1st Hamilton 98 pt
2nd Massa 97 pt

The difference is 1 pt. 1/97 or 1/110 = ~ 1 % -> i.e. difference is negligible -> i.e., they are equivalent

:wave:


Shouldn't that be

2007 WDC
1st Raikkonen 110 pt
4th Massa 94 pt

2008
3rd Raikkonen 75 pt
2nd Massa 97 pt

The difference is 16 pts. 16/110 = ~ 15 % or difference -22 pts. -22/97 = ~ -22 % ? He was comparing Massa and Raikkonen.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 30 March 2011 - 07:44.


#127 Augurk

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:44

2007 WDC
1st Raikkonen 110 pt
2nd Hamilton 109 pt

2008
1st Hamilton 98 pt
2nd Massa 97 pt

The difference is 1 pt. 1/97 or 1/110 = ~ 1 % -> i.e. difference is negligible -> i.e., they are equivalent

:wave:

Wrong. The difference is +1 vs -1. A difference of 200%! Especially true in this case because it makes one of them a champion and the other not.

#128 OSX

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:13

It's plain obvious that Massa hasn't been the same since the injury and propably never will be but just as long as he manages to help Alonso and Ferrari then I'm pretty sure the team will retain his services. Alonso will undoubtedly do everything in his power to keep Massa as his team mate.

#129 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:18

He's not hugely off the pace so I don't think it's at all fair to say he's not the same since the accident. I think a better way to analyse it is to say his teammate isn't the same...

#130 goldenboy

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:15

I was going to say I cant imagine ferrari wanting anyone else on the grid as massa is perfect for alonsos team mate, but I suppose they really do need someone slightly quicker as massa was not able to help him much at all last yr being most of the time behind the top 5.

So I suppose he really is in danger of losing his seat to a youngster like perez who may be able to help alonso out more and would probably be more likely to jump out of the way for him too.

Does massa have the longest running pairing with a team at current on the grid? Only other I can think of is webber red bull, cant remember exact yrs though.

Edited by goldenboy, 30 March 2011 - 12:17.


#131 GreyArrow

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:18

Give it a couple more races before judging how his season is likely to turn out. I don't believe Massa suddenly became a bad driver, Hungary accident or not.

Edited by GreyArrow, 30 March 2011 - 12:18.


#132 hotstickyslick

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:25

:lol:

I gave a valid reason as to why I believe that, which begs the question: why did you not include it within the quote?

#133 velgajski1

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 13:00

2007 WDC
1st Raikkonen 110 pt
2nd Hamilton 109 pt

2008
1st Hamilton 98 pt
2nd Massa 97 pt

The difference is 1 pt. 1/97 or 1/110 = ~ 1 % -> i.e. difference is negligible -> i.e., they are equivalent

:wave:


2009. proved that Button beats them all!

#134 korzeniow

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 13:04

Give it a couple more races before judging how his season is likely to turn out. I don't believe Massa suddenly became a bad driver, Hungary accident or not.


As much ass I agree to wait till couple of races, but Massa didn't suddenly became a bad driver, he was bad driver for whole last year and this season looks like will be repeat of that...

#135 August

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 15:47

A question is who would Ferrari replace Massa with. I don't believe they would take the risk of hiring Kubica after missing one season and doesn't Kooby still have a contract with LRGP? I'd say the active drivers who are better than Massa are Lewis, Alonso, Seb, Jenson and Nico and on on the same level are Webbo, Schuey and Rubens. The only one of those I'd see leaving their current team is Webbo, but to replace Massa, I think he should show he's on the same level as Seb coz Ferrari definitely don't want a driver who isn't better than Massa, they'd rather stick with Massa. Of course Ferrari can take a potential future champion who isn't really fighting for WDC, just learning the team to become No1 when Fred leaves the team. Maybe another Sauber-Ferrari driver, just like Massa before moving to Ferrari.

#136 Disgrace

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 15:52

Fooling himself with excuses like the tyres is not going to help him find the time he needs.


So would you say Schumacher is using said excuse? They both had the same problem in 2010, only nobody cared about Massa.

#137 korzeniow

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 16:04

So would you say Schumacher is using said excuse? They both had the same problem in 2010, only nobody cared about Massa.


In this case it's the matter in whose excuse you are beliving in. I don't belive neither.

#138 metz

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 16:06

I have never, ever heard any other team express an interest in Massa.
Maybe Ferrari can foist him on Sauber, as they have done before.
Massa's biggest asset is his manager.

#139 gm914

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 21:41

Pat Fry putting nails in the coffin...

http://www.f1-direct...hp?id_news=9584 (Fr.)

Translated: "Felipe is ​​no longer the standard to be a Formula 1 driver, lacks technical knowledge"

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#140 Ferrari2183

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 21:48

Pat Fry putting nails in the coffin...

http://www.f1-direct...hp?id_news=9584 (Fr.)

Translated: "Felipe is ​​no longer the standard to be a Formula 1 driver, lacks technical knowledge"

This has been posted in Ferrari thread and I personally don't believe he said it but I always felt that he lacked a bit technically and was picking Schumacher's brain while he was still a consultant.

#141 Sakae

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 22:29

I haven't read through whole thread, but it is all but confirmed, by unnamed sources, of course, that Koba is moving up next year. Lonso will not be having as good time he was hoping for.

#142 Sakae

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 22:37

He's not hugely off the pace so I don't think it's at all fair to say he's not the same since the accident. I think a better way to analyse it is to say his teammate isn't the same...


...precisely a reason why I think Kubica is done as well. Koba is next on the deck.

#143 r4mses

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 22:39

He was very competitive at Germany until the team told him to not be competitive.

Remember the transmission from the pits?

"Alonso is filling his helmet with tears because he can't pass you. You know, like race car drivers pass people in races."
:rotfl:


:rotfl: :up:

/on topic: Since Brazil 2009 I'm crossing fingers for Massa... but I'm quite shocked looking at his recent performances. I thought he'd be on par with Alonso :/

#144 g1n

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 23:12

I haven't read through whole thread, but it is all but confirmed, by unnamed sources, of course, that Koba is moving up next year. Lonso will not be having as good time he was hoping for.


Japanase in a Ferrari? interesting! :stoned: :drunk:

#145 Sakae

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 23:39

Japanase in a Ferrari? interesting! :stoned: :drunk:

You know what, THIS never came up in my thinking.

#146 fabr68

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 01:18

He was very competitive at Germany until the team told him to not be competitive.

Remember the transmission from the pits?

"Alonso is filling his helmet with tears because he can't pass you. You know, like race car drivers pass people in races."
:rotfl:


If Massa can't recover from the Germany radio transmission, half a year ago, maybe he should look for a different team. I doubt he is that weak of mind. I think he will bounce back once the car improves.

#147 Xpat

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:44

If Massa can't recover from the Germany radio transmission, half a year ago, maybe he should look for a different team. I doubt he is that weak of mind. I think he will bounce back once the car improves.


I don't think it is that one race but the implications for all races with Ferrari. He knows they look at him as second fiddle and if there is a situation where Alonso is even remotely in the championship hunt he will get preferential treatment.

Regardless of whether you think he should have known that would be the situation, it has to be dispiriting.

I actually think Alonso would perform better if he was told there would be no team orders. Massa would too. (but I don't want to discuss team orders really)

#148 as65p

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:17

I don't see how the suggestions that Massa underperforms due to Alonso being favoured are supposed to help his case.

Sulking over that would, in itself, indicate a mental weakness that marks him as a second-tier driver, regardless of his on-track abilities.

#149 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:21

I love the idea that Kobayashi is suddenly going to be a thorn to Alonso. Kobayashi will be lucky to be as good as Massa.

#150 seahawk

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:29

Kobayashi?

I would rather believe Sutil and Glock to be on the list as well.