41 replies to this topic

[cheapracer]

V6 sounds ..

I note the GM V6 engines there of which there are many have differing firing orders.

In Oz land we for the bulk of time had the Buick based 3.8 V6 with the firing order of 1 6 5 4 3 2 and to be frank it sounds like **** - terrible flat sound like a sick V8 missing 2 cylinders.

I notice the 3.4 among others has a different firing order that even Grunt can't get wrong, 1 2 3 4 5 6

What do they sound like compared to the 3.8 in your opinions?

What about the more recent Ford V6's sound?

Of course I mean with a non standard 'sporty' exhaust .....

I wonder if any of you have heard an older 70's Capri 3.0 V6 (1 4 2 5 3 6) on song to compare, very nice!

[Lee Nicolle]

3.8s with the single exhaust can sound ok. eg Formula Holden in the later periods. Or some speedway modified sedans.
The even crankpin Buick sounds exactly the same as a Commodore though the engine seems stronger. They do not break cranks!!
Though the Capri always sounded healthy they are a bit torqless.
V6 Mitsi engines always sound happy at high RPM, all versions.

[Greg Locock]

I think you'd have to disentangle the effect of the exhaust runners and mufflers from the firing order effect. I bet if you put equal length runners on them it would be much more difficult to tell firing orders. In true monkey see monkey do fashion we built an I6 with the other firing order, like the Landcruiser, and I couldn't pick it.

[ray b]

the old 3.8 was a V8 missing two cylinders
and it is 90 deg just like the V8 so common tooling could be used

3.4 and others are 60 deg

btw the newest 3.9 and 3.5 are also 60 deg and make the best power of the lot

[Greg Locock]

I don't think commodore has used a 90 degree V6 in the past 21 years. Could be wrong. I thought that 90 deg V6s were primarily an abberation of the 80s.

[Wuzak]

I don't think commodore has used a 90 degree V6 in the past 21 years. Could be wrong. I thought that 90 deg V6s were primarily an abberation of the 80s.

They did from teh VN of 1988 until the new generation came in about 6 or 7 years ago.

[Lee Nicolle]

Greg, the 3.8 used up until VZ is the Biuck V8 based engine. Same engine family as the alloy V8. Though much changed. I have a feeling even the 3.6 alloytec still has some of the same basic infrasructure. Both small rattly torqueless short stroke things!

[cheapracer]

3.8s with the single exhaust can sound ok. eg Formula Holden in the later periods. Or some speedway modified sedans.

Formula Holden is exactly what I am talking about, they sounded dreadful so I am considering options. It's a shame the highest potential, cheapest power packaging engine for a cheap formula race car couldn't sound less like a race car if they tried.

Because a handful of other reasons as well, their sound to me is a key ingredient of FH's failure - well that and CAMS inability to get sex at a brothel.

Yeah Greg I was wondering about doing strange things with the primarys to make them sound sexy.

[gruntguru]

In Oz land we for the bulk of time had the Buick based 3.8 V6 with the firing order of 1 6 5 4 3 2 and to be frank it sounds like **** - terrible flat sound like a sick V8 missing 2 cylinders.

I notice the 3.4 among others has a different firing order that even Grunt can't get wrong, 1 2 3 4 5 6 ;)

Erm . . . what came after the 1?

I think if the cylinder numbering was the same, a "1 2 3 4 5 6 firing order" would sound very similar to 6 5 4 3 2 1 (or 1 6 5 4 3 2).

[cheapracer]

a "1 2 3 4 5 6 firing order" would sound very similar to 6 5 4 3 2 1

Nope, can't suck me in, it would be backwards so instead of "Vroom, Vroom" it would be "Moorv, Moorv".

[Fat Boy]

Racing V-6's that I've heard all sound flat as a fart. Even the good ones are awful. The old Indy Lights were terrible. The old ASA cars at least had the sound of some compression in the cylinders, but overall, they were pretty dreadful as well.

BMW I-6's and even the older Datsun/Nissan cars sound reasonable as (of course) do Porsche's, but V's, no thanks. You know they sound bad when a I-4 sounds way better (which, no matter how you slice it, is a harsh little monster).

[cheapracer]

The old Indy Lights were terrible.

yup, thats what I mean, same donk as our Formula Holden.

[ray b]

I don't think commodore has used a 90 degree V6 in the past 21 years. Could be wrong. I thought that 90 deg V6s were primarily an abberation of the 80s.

ALL THE BUICK 3.8 V6'S ARE 90 DEG early 60's up to 08 when replaced by the 3900 a new 60 deg v6
inc the s1-3800 , s2-3800 and s-3 3800 with balance shafts and the supercharged versions
and the indy turbo motor inc the menards [alloy race only motors]

other common 90 deg v6 motors inc the chevy 3.8-4.1-4.3 mostly used in trucks and boats
based on the chevy v8 minus 2 cyl
the caddy short star 3.5 dohc v6 alloy a newer motor based on the northstar v8

2.8 , 3.1 , 3.4, 3500 , and 3900 are all 60 deg push rod motors
and 2.8 and 3.4 dohc motors

[OfficeLinebacker]

Racing V-6's that I've heard all sound flat as a fart. Even the good ones are awful. The old Indy Lights were terrible. The old ASA cars at least had the sound of some compression in the cylinders, but overall, they were pretty dreadful as well.

BMW I-6's and even the older Datsun/Nissan cars sound reasonable as (of course) do Porsche's, but V's, no thanks. You know they sound bad when a I-4 sounds way better (which, no matter how you slice it, is a harsh little monster).

What do the Buick Grand Nationals sound like?

[Fat Boy]

What do the Buick Grand Nationals sound like?

The fast ones sound like a whole lot of turbo.

[Greg Locock]

Greg, the 3.8 used up until VZ is the Biuck V8 based engine.

Thanks Lee, I am gobsmacked by that. Hmm, equal length runners won't make it sound luvverly then.

Edited by Greg Locock, 01 April 2011 - 23:28.

[Marc Sproule]

I wonder if any of you have heard an older 70's Capri 3.0 V6 (1 4 2 5 3 6) on song to compare, very nice!

One of my favorite racing sounds--before I heard F1 cars...was Harry T's 3.0 Cosworth stuffed in his IMSA Capri in the '70s. I also really liked the sound the V-8s made in F5000 cars.

I had a '74 2.8 V6 Capri here in the states. Had an aftermarket exhaust and it had a very throaty, mellow sound. All my sporty car friends liked it too. Fiddled with the suspension a bit...1" lower than stock, stiffer anti-sway bar and some other bits...and it was the most neutral handling car I ever owned. My recollection is that it weighed somewhere around 2500-2600 pounds.

There's a 20 mph downhill "fishook" here in Santa Cruz. One day a guy, in whatever Datsun Z car was current then, tried to follow me through that turn at a little over 50 mph. Last I saw of him he was finally getting it stopped after he had spun it about 90-100 degrees.

[NeilR]

[NeilR]

Thanks Lee, I am gobsmacked by that. Hmm, equal length runners won't make it sound luvverly then.

Greg the commodore was often called a cow because no matter what you did the V6 went 'mooo'

[gruntguru]

Thanks Lee, I am gobsmacked by that. Hmm, equal length runners won't make it sound luvverly then.

Although 90 deg, Holden used a crank with offset pins to allow even firing.

[Fat Boy]

I had a '74 2.8 V6 Capri here in the states. Had an aftermarket exhaust and it had a very throaty, mellow sound. All my sporty car friends liked it too. Fiddled with the suspension a bit...1" lower than stock, stiffer anti-sway bar and some other bits...and it was the most neutral handling car I ever owned.

I'm sorry.

[Fat Boy]

Good by V-6 standards, as you would expect from Ferrari (Dino engine, right?), but IMO, still behind the BMW's it raced against. For whatever it's worth, I thought the Audi 5-cyl sounded better as well.

Maybe it's just me and my personal tastes.

[cheapracer]

Yeah that flat edge of a V6 applies to them all, even the best ..... (awesome video btw)

http://www.streetfir...unds_742598.htm

I'm sorry.

Although 90 deg, Holden used a crank with offset pins to allow even firing.

Which you would think would fix the sound too but they are amongst the worst of the V6's.

Edited by cheapracer, 02 April 2011 - 05:43.

[NeilR]

Good by V-6 standards, as you would expect from Ferrari (Dino engine, right?), but IMO, still behind the BMW's it raced against. For whatever it's worth, I thought the Audi 5-cyl sounded better as well.

Maybe it's just me and my personal tastes.

I agree, but then I like this more than the stratos and always have:

[24gerrard]

Road Ferrari engines V6 or V8 I have always found gutless and a bit of a let down. Took us ages to get any winning power output from a V8 328 challenge car. Ferrari road engines bottom ends always worried me for strength.
Weslake Capri was probably the best V6 Ford, although we did once build a Scorpio Cosworth V6 Capri for a customer, that was pretty good.
Dont know about the American comment on neutral handling, all the budget and super saloon Capris I was involved with swapped ends fairly easily.
Standard brakes in budget saloon was also a pain for Capris, two laps before fade if you were lucky.
IMO if you were to use a highley tuned V6 Ford or the Cosworth version in a Capri you would be wise to cut out the bulkhead inside and move the engine back six inches and shorten the prop shaft, that works well, Of course in the 70 s there were a number of 4x4 Capris that were better than modern 4x4s that look like blocks of flats or Mr Blobby cars these days. Where did the design art go? Capri was a small Mustang, both had class.

Edited by 24gerrard, 02 April 2011 - 10:48.

[johnny yuma]

The old Buick- derived Commodore 3.8 has ,from workshop manual, CYLINDER NUMBER SEQUENCE --FRONT TO REAR--LEFT BANK 1,3.5.
RIGHT BANK 2,4,6.
FIRING ORDER 1,6.5.4.3.2

Is this numbering sequence common to the motor industry or might this differ,thus "apparently" changing the firing order?

I've driven the SV6 version of Holden's current V6,it runs VVT as well as OHC and FVA from basic motor.It gives a really nice throaty growl through the induction tract from about 5000 up to 6500 cutout,but THE EXHAUST IS QUIET. My brother's' awd Mitsubishi Magna 3.5V6 sounds exactly the same in the cabin.Perhaps inlet tract tuning is the only way to get a nice noise from these donks,but you won't hear it with a noisy muffler and the windows down.

Edited by johnny yuma, 03 April 2011 - 07:29.

[Lee Nicolle]

I have said this before about V8s. Firing orders are often the same, but each manufacturer numbers the cylinders different. eg left 123 r 456 or they follow the crank 135 246, and then it depends which bank is at the front, left or right. Confused, it can be. A Chev and a Windsor 302 have the same firing order but from memory are numbered differently.

[24gerrard]

I have said this before about V8s. Firing orders are often the same, but each manufacturer numbers the cylinders different. eg left 123 r 456 or they follow the crank 135 246, and then it depends which bank is at the front, left or right. Confused, it can be. A Chev and a Windsor 302 have the same firing order but from memory are numbered differently.

I think the 351 Cleveland is different but as you say very confusing.

[Lee Nicolle]

I think the 351 Cleveland is different but as you say very confusing.

When you buy a race roller cam from Crane now they have changed the firing order to seperate 5and 7 so as to alleviate the cross fire problem that has detonated a lot of Chevy blocks over the years.

[Fat Boy]

I think the 351 Cleveland is different but as you say very confusing.

correct.

The roller cam (oem) 302's were also different than the earlier models if memory serves.

[Canuck]

The fast ones sound like a whole lot of turbo.

And 'tis a lovely sound at that

[cheapracer]

The thing with V8's though is they all sound great regardless of crank/firing order whereas the V6's sound like crap.

What a real shame as the packaging/weight/power/cost ratio is just a superb combination.

The fast ones sound like a whole lot of turbo.

And 'tis a lovely sound at that

http://www.hotrod.co...lock/index.html

Edited by cheapracer, 04 April 2011 - 05:41.

[mariner]

Cheapracer, the old Alfa V-6 was famous for it's lovely exhaust note. This is the Alfa designed one not the latest one which I think is some sort of version of the GM quad cam V-6.

Mind you I have the GM quad cam V-6 in my car and when you wind it up it sounds nice. I think the reasson is probaly the split crank pins which might , I suppose , also weakens the crank for very high power.

[Lee Nicolle]

correct.

The roller cam (oem) 302's were also different than the earlier models if memory serves.

Firing order on 302 and 351 Windsors are different. Not certain about roller cam 302s

[Lee Nicolle]

Cheapracer, the old Alfa V-6 was famous for it's lovely exhaust note. This is the Alfa designed one not the latest one which I think is some sort of version of the GM quad cam V-6.

Mind you I have the GM quad cam V-6 in my car and when you wind it up it sounds nice. I think the reasson is probaly the split crank pins which might , I suppose , also weakens the crank for very high power.

The GTV V6s that Alan Jones and Colin Bond raced in GpA sounded great,,, and were driven very spectacularly, particularly by Jones.

[Fat Boy]

Firing order on 302 and 351 Windsors are different. Not certain about roller cam 302s

I think the roller cam 302 and 351W have the same firing order. Magoo'd know.

[rory57]

LEFT BANK 1,3.5.
RIGHT BANK 2,4,6.
FIRING ORDER 1,6.5.4.3.2

Is this numbering sequence common to the motor industry or might this differ,thus "apparently" changing the firing order?

Surely any V6 always has the three cylinders of one bank firing every 240 crankshaft degrees?
There can only be two firing orders for 3 cylinders: 1 - 2 - 3 or 3 - 2 - 1.
Thus a 60deg. V6 or a 120deg. V6 (oh for more of those!) will sound like two 3-inlines evenly phased, a 90deg V6 like two 3-inlines at 90deg.
Two-plane crank V8s have that sound because the firing order of each bank is uneven when considered on it's own and it is impracticable to compensate for that with complex exhaust headers and the same is true of flat 4s. The throbbing or warbling sound that results seems very popular however. The Audi inline-5 also had a bit of a warble but I seem to recall the exhaust headers of those engines were always front two and rear three into turbo / downpipe.

My much-missed Alpine GTA with it's 90deg V6 sounded pretty good at idle but not as the revs rose. I considered dumping the stock exhaust and fitting a couple of cans a-la Ducati. (90deg V2) It wouldn't have sounded like three Ducati's though, would it? There is much more to this engine sound thing than the basic configuration of the engine.

Incidently, the 90deg V6 has advantages over the 60deg sort: Shorter, stiffer, stronger crankshaft, less flywheel (unless your first concern is refinement) because only one piston is at T.D.C. or B.D.C. at a time thus the inertia torque peaks are smaller.

[cheapracer]

There can only be two firing orders for 3 cylinders: 1 - 2 - 3 or 3 - 2 - 1.

Nope, you could have 1-3-2 or 2-3-1 or 2-1-3 or 3-1-2

I'm over the V6, perfect engine with the worst possible flaw.

[autogyro46]

Sorry to be so late to the party, but this might help answer the initial question.

http://blog.roushper...ng-exhaust.html

Check out the "Hear For Yourself" section. The in-car clip, particularly, has a lovely trombone-like timbre. I think it might be partly due to to 60deg vee.
I have been in love with sixes ever since, at the age of 10 (I think), I had a ride in my neighbor's XK120-MC, equipped with with Webers on one side and an expansion tank on the other. Pretty much like the D-type which won LeMans, yet again, that very year. You can't get a sound like that out of your head.

[rory57]

At Prescott HillClimb today: two 60 deg. V6's (Ford, Ferrari): completely different sound, no clue at all that the basic engine config. is the same.

Doh, the Ferrari is a 65deg. V6. So much for that example.

Also noted that 911's, even of a similar age, can sound very different.
Oh for the days before mandatory mufflers.

Edited by rory57, 29 May 2011 - 08:36.

[rory57]

Nope, you could have 1-3-2 or 2-3-1 or 2-1-3 or 3-1-2

I'm over the V6, perfect engine with the worst possible flaw.

What is the "worst possible flaw"?

I think that in the context of firing orders 1-3-2 is the same as 2-1-3, etc. There is only two different ways of ordering three things in a circle: 1-2-3 or 1-3-2.

[cheapracer]

I think that in the context of firing orders 1-3-2 is the same as 2-1-3, etc. There is only two different ways of ordering three things in a circle: 1-2-3 or 1-3-2.

Do you know that cylinders can't be trained and when you start your engine theres a 33% chance of starting on 2, 1 or 3? - and anyway, I might choose to order my cylinders using A, B and C so there.

What is the "worst possible flaw"?

The crap sound they make.