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1955 Argentinian Grand Prix


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#1 Graham Clayton

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 20:50

Has nyone got a complete list of the starters in the
race, along with a list of retirements and finishers?

Also, what was the situation regarding the distribution of
the drivers championship points. Due to the excessive heat
in which the race was conducted, at leat half a dozen cars
had 2 or more drivers for the race. Did all of them receive
points, or only the driver who drove the car for the majority of races?
Is it now illegal for there to be such driver swaps in a
current F1 WC GP?

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#2 Felix Muelas

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 21:03

Graham

Welcome to the Forum

Your first question might be answered via a visit to http://www.forix.com...&l=0&r=5501&c=1

Felix

#3 Rob29

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 21:13

I have all the results,but too complicated to type here,You need the Paul Sheldon "Black Book" for the best record. The points were shared out,so that at least one driver,Farina I think,scored points in 4 different cars in the same race! As a result of this chaos,the rules were changed -from '57 only a drivers' best result in each race counted.From '58 when races were shortened,all points were forefit in the event of a driver change. Nowdays, as you suggest, no changing would be allowed.

#4 Felix Muelas

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 21:25

Originally posted by Graham Clayton
Also, what was the situation regarding the distribution of the drivers championship points.

In 1955 the winner took 8 points, second 6, third 4, fourth 3 and fifth 2 points. Additionally 1 point was awarded to the fastest lap man.

...at leat half a dozen cars had 2 or more drivers for the race. Did all of them receive points...?

Yes, all of the drivers received points, basically sharing them. So, if you want to make the calculations yourself, do as follows : 6 points for the second position to be shared between three drivers -González, Farina and Trintignant.
Additionally, the four points for the third place are also divided into the 3 drivers that took the place -Maglioli, FArina (again) and Trintignant (again too). They get 1 point and a third of a point for this.
Overall, both Trintignant and Farina got a score of 3 points and a third of a point.
As far as Hermann, Kling and Moss, they had to share the 3 points for fourth place...that´s easy, they get a point apiece.

Is it now illegal for there to be such driver swaps in a current F1 WC GP?

Shared drives were extremelly discouraged as from 1958, as they were not "illegal" but points were not shared anymore. Worst still, points theoretically obtained by the "shared drive" were not awarded to any of the drivers, thus, as you might imagine, not exactly "promoting" shared drives.
As for "when" these shared drives became "illegal",-not allowed- I am sure some of our colleagues will remember more accurately than me the date.

Felix Muelas


#5 Graham Clayton

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 21:29

Felix,
Thanks for the information!
I noticed on the entry list that some drivers
were entered to drive 2 or 3 different cars,
eg Luigi Musso was entered as the driver for
both the #20 & #22 Maserati 250F.
Was this done to enable him to swap cars during
the race due to the conditions.

I also noticed Pablo Birger qualified his
Gordini 9th, only 1.7 secons behind Gonzalez's
pole time, and in front of one Mercedes-Benz
and some Maseratis and Lancias.
Unfortunately he crashed on lap 1.
Does anyone have some information on him?


#6 Felix Muelas

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 21:32

Originally posted by Rob29
...you need the Paul Sheldon "Black Book" for the best record...

We use those at Forix, Rob ;)

As a result of this chaos,the rules were changed -from '57 only a drivers' best result in each race counted.

I didn´t know that! Thanks, it´s always refreshing to discover that one can learn everyday some basic things that for whatever reasons one might have simply disregarded previously :)
You see, too much prewar racing and ignorance when confronted with the rules of the World Championship! Shame on me :lol:

Thanks Rob

Felix


#7 Felix Muelas

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Posted 16 January 2001 - 21:51

Originally posted by Graham Clayton
Luigi Musso was entered as the driver for
both the #20 & #22 Maserati 250F.
Was this done to enable him to swap cars during
the race due to the conditions.


Worst case scenario :lol: :(
No, you have simply stumped in one of the Forix bugs! I don´t want to enter a technical discussion, but the underlying idea is that, when coding the information, we have not yet found a system that will allow the database to accept a "shared" drive without putting together the race number and the drivers who eventually co-drove.
I agree that, taking a look at the entry list, one might come to the same conclusion you arrived BUT in order to avoid misunderstandings, specifically for this race (we´ll solve the domestic problems at home), entries were one per driver and car, as follows :
8 Herrmann 10 Farina 12 González 20 Mantovani 22 Musso 26 Bucci 28 Schell 36 Castellotti

As for Pablo Birger...we´ll get you the details, don´t worry! As we all have discovered over the last 14 months, when looking for info, ask TNF first...;)

Felix



#8 Viggen

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Posted 17 January 2001 - 00:19


Quote from "The formula 1 record file"

"Drivers sharing a car shared the points up to 1957; but only if was deemed that they had completed enough laps of the race."

How many laps was "enough laps of the race"? :confused:

Viggen

#9 Marcor

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Posted 17 January 2001 - 01:03

I've just prepared a topic about the last F1 shared victory !

#10 Wolf

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Posted 17 January 2001 - 01:13

Marcor, I'm looking forwad to reading it. :)

#11 David McKinney

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Posted 17 January 2001 - 06:12

Pablo Birger was a product of the Mecánica Nacional class of Argentine racing in which Fangio, González and Marimón also made their names. He won at Salto in 1951, and the following years was first at Le Cumbre and Buenos Aires. In the latter race his Ford V8 special beat Marimón in the ex-Fangio Chevrolet. These performances brought him a works Gordini drive in the 1953 international Temporada, though he made little impression in either the Argentine GP or the non-championship Buenos Aires GP. He then turned his hand to the Turismo Carretera class, racing a Ford V8 in those great cross-country marathons that were a feature of Argentine racing. After some placings in 1953 he won the Rafaela race in 1954. His last races seem to have been in the 1955 Temporada. He died in 1966, at the age of 42.


#12 fines

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Posted 17 January 2001 - 16:41

Funnily, I was just in the process of preparing a thread about this particular race, covering in detail all the mysteries including the number of laps driven by each relief driver. I'm not finished yet, so bear with me.

#13 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 24 January 2001 - 06:52

In all of Mike Hawthorn's writings he talks about his height causing him a problem when driving another team driver's car.

Because all drivers are not proportionally the size of a jockey, it would be extremely difficult for any of the modern day drivers to swap cars..In most instances the backup car brought by a team to the circuit is set up for the number one driver. If the number two is tall like Gerhard Berger or has a greater than 26 inch waist size, and he damages his car......Oh well.

In the old days many F-1 cars were sold to different sized customers. Switching wasn't a problem.

Gil

#14 Don Capps

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Posted 24 January 2001 - 16:22

A few comments:

"Drivers sharing a car shared the points up to 1957; but only if was deemed that they had completed enough laps of the race."

The results -- and points -- were based on finishers that were determined by the organizers of the race. The CSI did not meddle into this realm until 1963 with the "2/3's" rule which became the "90%" rule in 1966. The AC de Monaco usually listed anyone running past the half-distance point as a finisher.

Soapbox: An irritating thing that Paul Sheldon did do that was a revisionist twisting of the results by calculating most of the pre-1966 & 1963 results to include the category "not classified." This has led to erroreous notations in Forix and elsewhere in the results of drivers being charged with a "not classified" when they were indeed listed as finishers by the organizers. In addition, Sheldon steadfastly refused/refuses to recognize the commercial aspects (something that while I fully understand his feelings is contract to the record) of racing by altering the names of certain entrants, the BRP issue being the most obvious.

"As a result of this chaos,the rules were changed -from '57 only a drivers' best result in each race counted."

Not so. The way this was resolved was by simply not giving points for shared drives starting with the 1958 season.

"No, you have simply stumped in one of the Forix bugs!"

I tried to get Joao to correct his data on this race, but he said "Thanks, but no thanks," and said his data stated so-and-so and despite what I presented he preferred to use what he had -- so I wrote off Forix at that point.

A note on the cars: they generally in a one-size fits all or with only a minimum of choices until the advent of the 1960s. Generally, the team mechanics adjusted they car as best they could, the 250F have some built-in adjustments, but often these were nothing remotely like the current practice of a chassis being made exclusively for the use of one individual. Today, the possibility of a Dan Gurney making it into "F1" is remote simply due to his size. And, yes, Hawthorn is correct about the problems of taking over another driver's car and finding it not a good fit. Some Star drivers were empathic about the junior/cub drivers having their cars adjusted for the Star and not the cub...

#15 Rob29

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Posted 24 January 2001 - 17:50

Sorry Don,but you seem to have missed the 1957 rule changes or confused them with the 1958 changes. The point about the number of laps completed refered not to the pecentage of the race distance completed by the car but by each "co-driver".I think this was only appllied in one case,when Hawthorn felt sick & Trintingant took over his car for 4laps,he gained nil points but Mike got half points. I still maintain that in 1957 if a driver managed to finish in the first five in two separate cars,the second finish did not count for points,although the co-driver would get half points.

#16 Don Capps

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Posted 24 January 2001 - 19:27

Sorry Don,but you seem to have missed the 1957 rule changes or confused them with the 1958 changes.


Yep, that's me, always in the dark it seems! :lol: Sorry, Rob Two-Niner, but until you mentioned it I had never heard of this CSI decision. I would like to know if this was a CSI decision issued in one of the CSI Bulletins or a decision of the organizers? The GP world back then was pretty much a laissez-faire relationship twix the CSI and the teams and the organizers. There was relatively little mucking around in the GP world by the CSI in comparison with the sports car world which the CSI managed to keep in a constant state of turmoil with its intervention.

The point about the number of laps completed refered not to the pecentage of the race distance completed by the car but by each "co-driver". I think this was only appllied in one case,when Hawthorn felt sick & Trintingant took over his car for 4 laps,he gained nil points but Mike got half points.


If this is 1957 and it was Peter Collins spelling Maurice Trintignant for 3 laps at the British GP, most sources cited give all the points to Trintignant.

Back to the CSI -- again I have never heard of this type of requirement being applied during this period. Remember once again, the organizers were pretty much in the saddle for the actual conduct of the events they ran, the CSI usually only showing up to skim off their cut for allowing the organizer the privilege of having an CSI Championship event at their track -- and generally getting in the way people with real jobs at the track. Anyway, the RAC may have had its own rules for such things which may have been used. However, there is not the unwarranted thought -- unlikely as it seems -- that the timekeepers and scorers flat missed Collins being in the car. Not until into the 1960s did the RAC abandon egg-timers and sundials for timing & scoring purposes. :lol:

There were the beginnings of a more activist approach by the CSI at about this point in the proceedings, witness the changes dropped on everyone effective with the 1958 season. These were prompted in the aftermath of the Mille Miglia accident and other unpleasant memories such as Le Mans 1955. As I pointed out earlier, I am completely unaware of the CSI making such changes in the scoring system. However, nothing any of the organizers did would surprise me in the least.

Given my recent batting average :( it is entirely possible that I completely off base here. :confused:

#17 Felix Muelas

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Posted 24 January 2001 - 20:37

Originally posted by Don Capps
Soapbox:... I tried to get Joao to correct his data on this race, but he said "Thanks, but no thanks," and said his data stated so-and-so and despite what I presented he preferred to use what he had -- so I wrote off Forix at that point...


Sorry, Don, but I might have lost something in the process.

If I read your statement carefully I would come to the logical conclusion that there were data to be corrected regarding the 1955 Argentine Grand Prix as shown on Forix based on Paul Sheldon´s sources. Not only that, but it seems that you imply that Joao Paulo refused them! That’s highly uncharacteristic of Joao Paulo, a friend of mine for many years that, to my humble knowledge, is not exactly known for his lack of kindness and will to have the best available data possible on his site.

But of course something serious should have happened for you to end your statement with "...so I wrote off Forix at that point....It is not your style, as far as I am aware, to "write-off" the work of others without having a really strong reason for it!

So Don, what happened?

Felix


#18 Don Capps

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Posted 24 January 2001 - 22:06

No biggie. Out of my own curiosity I dug into a number of sources that I came across at the time that convinced me that what was being accepted as the case -- and posted at Forix and elsewhere/everywhere -- really wasn't how it panned out during the race, the mind-boggling shuffling around being slightly different than portrayed in one case. This was something I had thought about since I had read the various different permutations on the driver swaps leading to this statistical nightmare. It must have Alvarez and another source -- I recall it being something I had been sent on the race from either an SA magazine or newspaper -- who were actually at the race that led me to re-thinking conventional wisdom. I sent what I thought and some idea why I thought this and Joao didn't buy it. No problem, his site, his decision. He was very nice about it, but said that wasn't what he was being lead to believe as the facts so until he was convinced otherwise, no change. Again, no biggie, just a difference over the colors of some mouse turds on the floor of history.... :lol:

#19 fines

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Posted 25 January 2001 - 20:26

Just one thing: Joao IS DEFINITELY WRONG on some of the laps he distributes between the relief drivers of this event, and by some margin at that (not that this is any remarkable slip under the circumstances)! I have tried to observe as many sources as were available to me and spent literally hours trying to make the data match. As said, I am going to post my findings soon, but would like to do so in an elaborate way which will take a little time I don't have right now.

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#20 fines

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Posted 14 November 2002 - 19:06

Originally posted by fines
As said, I am going to post my findings soon, but would like to do so in an elaborate way which will take a little time I don't have right now.

Well, how "soon" is "soon"? :lol:

Okay so, even if it took me almost two years, here're my findings:

The "elaborate way" I was talking about is a little computer program I wrote and christened "Gapchart". It's aim is to give an accurate account of all the gaps between the cars during a race, and also show the relative positions of lapped cars "on the road".

With the data from "Autocourse", graciously provided by Roger Clark, and several reports from books, magazines and even one eyewitness (a Gordini mechanic, graciously provided by Rudiger de Jonghe/Boniver), I managed to solve almost all the questions regarding the "statistical" side of the race.

However, it should be noted that the individual lap times issued by the race organiser did not tie in with any of the reported happenings, and incidentally not even with their own "official" results! :eek: Thus, I was having to "juggle" around a little bit with the data, to make it fit the reports, which was not helped at all by the fact that not two reports seemed to agree on even the most basic aspects of the race! :(

Therefore, any of the following data should be taken as an "approximate", but, in the absence of better info, that may very well be the closest we will ever get to the truth.

Now, starting with a very tentative listing of the final...

Results

FP  SP   # Driver	   Car					 Laps  Total Time	Fastest Lap   Gap to L   Gap to P

 1   3   2 Fangio	   Mercedes-Benz			 96  3:00'38.6"	1'48.3"  45	   0.0"	   0.0"

 2   1  12 González/

		   Farina/

		   Trintignant/

		   González/												1'48.8"  53

		   Farina	   Ferrari				   96  3:02'08.2"				   1'29.6"	1'29.6"

 3   5  10 Farina/												  1'50.8"  18

		   Maglioli/

		   Trintignant/

		   Maglioli	 Ferrari				   94  3:01'35.7"				   4'48.8"	3'13.7"

 4  10   8 Herrmann/

		   Kling/

		   Moss		 Mercedes-Benz			 94  3:01'51.6"	1'51.1"  93	5'04.7"	  15.9"

 5  16  18 Mieres	   Maserati				  91  3:02'03.3"	1'50.0"  66   10'57.0"	5'48.9"

 6   7  28 Schell/

		   Behra		Maserati				  88  3:03'43.4"	1'49.1"  49   18'19.0"	7'16.5"

 7  18  22 Musso/

		   Mantovani/											   1'51.3"  57

		   Schell	   Maserati				  83  3:01'12.7"				  25'20.3"   14'02.2"

 8n 20  26 Bucci/

		   Menditéguy/											  1'50.2"  27

		   Schell	   Maserati				  55  1:53'31.2"				  10'25.8"	7'14.5"

 9n 19  20 Mantovani/

		   Behra/												   1'51.8"  19

		   Musso		Maserati				  55  2:16'47.5"				  33'42.1"	9'38.9"

10n 17  42 Iglésias	 Gordini				   38  1:17'38.3"	1'55.3"  19	6'53.3"	1'26.9"

11n 14  14 Trintignant  Ferrari				   36  1:09'09.7"	1'51.4"   4	2'12.6"	  44.8"

12n 12  36 Castellotti/

		   Villoresi	Lancia					35  1:08'40.1"	1'50.1"  30	3'35.7"	1'15.3"

13n  8   6 Moss		 Mercedes-Benz			 29	53'51.8"	1'49.3"   2	  13.0"	  13.0"

14n 21  30 Uria		 Maserati				  22	45'12.7"	1'57.5"  22	4'38.4"	  46.8"

15n  2  32 Ascari	   Lancia					21	38'40.3"	1'48.8"  21	   0.0"	   0.0"

16n 15  38 Bayol		Gordini					7	14'27.4"	1'59.5"   2	1'21.7"	   7.7"

17n  6   4 Kling		Mercedes-Benz			  2	 3'47.5"	1'50.8"   2	   5.3"	   2.7"

18n  4  16 Behra		Maserati				   2	 4'10.6"	1'57.7"   1	  28.4"	   1.9"

19n 13  24 Menditéguy   Maserati				   1	 2'03.9"	2'03.9"   1	  10.7"	   0.4"

20n  9  40 Birger	   Gordini					1	 2'04.6"	2'04.6"   1	  11.4"	   0.7"

21n 11  34 Villoresi	Lancia					 1	 2'06.6"	2'06.6"   1	  13.4"	   0.4"



n  not classified

Lap Chart

  G: 12 32  2 16 10  4 28  6 40  8 34 36 24 14 38 18 42 22 20 26 30



  1:  2 32  6 12 10  4 28 16  8 18 36 42 14 22 24 40 26 34 20 38 30

  2:  2 32  6 12  4 10  8 28 18 36 22 14 42 26 20 38 30 16

  3: 32 12  2  6 10  8 28 18 36 22 14 20 26 30 38 42

  4: 12 32  2  6  8 28 10 18 36 22 14 20 26 30 38 42

  5: 32  2 12  6  8 28 10 18 36 14 22 20 26 30 38 42

  6: 32  2 12  6  8 28 18 10 22 14 20 26 30 38 42 36

  7: 32 12  2  6  8 28 18 10 22 14 20 26 30 38 42 36

  8: 12 32  2  6  8 28 18 10 22 14 26 30 36 42 20+

  9: 12 32  2  6  8 28 18 10 22 14 26 30 36 42 20

 10: 12 32  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 30 36 42 20

 11: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 30 42 20 36

 12: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 30 42 20 36

 13: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 42 30 20 36

 14: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 42 30 20 36

 15: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 42 30 36 20

 16: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 42 20 36 30

 17: 32 12  2  6 28  8 18 10 22 14 26 42 20 30 36+

 18: 32 12  2  6 28 18  8 10 22 14 26 42 20 30 36

 19: 32 12  2  6 28 18  8 10 22 14 26 20 42 36 30*

 20: 32 12  2  6 28 18  8 10 22 14 26 20 42 36 30

 21: 32 12  2  6 28 18  8 22 10+14 20 42 36 30 26+

 22: 12  2  6 28 18  8 22 14 10 20 42 36 30 26

 23: 12  2  6 28 18  8 22 14 10 20 42 36 26

 24: 12  2  6 28 18  8 22 14 10 20 42 36 26

 25: 12  2  6 28 18  8 22 14 10 20 42 36 26

 26:  2  6 28 18 12+ 8 22 14 10 42 36 26 20+

 27:  2  6 28 18 12  8 22 14 10 36 42 26 20

 28:  2  6 28 18 12  8 14 22 10 36 42 26 20

 29:  2  6 28 18 12  8 14 22 10 36 42 26 20

 30:  2 28 18 12  8 14 22 10 36 42 26 20

 31:  2 28 18 12  8 14 10 36 42 22+ 26 20

 32:  2 28 18 12  8 14 10 36 22 42*26 20

 33:  2 28 18 12  8 14 10 36 22 42 26 20

 34:  2 28 18 12  8 14 10 36 22 42 26*20

 35: 28 18 12  2* 8 14*10 36 22 42 26 20

 36: 28 18 12  2  8 14 10 22 42 26 20

 37: 28 18 12  2  8 10 22 42 26 20

 38: 28 18  2  8 12+10 22*42 26 20

 39: 28 18  2  8 12 10 26 20 22*

 40: 28 18  2 12  8 10 26 20 22

 41: 18 28+ 2 12  8 10 26 20 22

 42:  2 28 18*12  8+10 26 20 22

 43:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 20 22

 44:  2 28 18 12+ 8 10 26 20 22

 45:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 20 22

 46:  2 28 18 12  8 10+26 20 22

 47:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 20 22

 48:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 20 22

 49:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 20 22

 50:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 20 22

 51:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26+22 20*

 52:  2 28 18 12  8 10 26 22 20

 53:  2 28 12  8 10 26 18*22 20

 54:  2 28 12  8 10 26 18 22 20

 55:  2 28 12  8 10 26 18 22 20

 56:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 57:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 58:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 59:  2 28 12  8 10*18 22

 60:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 61:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22+

 62:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 63:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 64:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 65:  2 28 12  8 10 18 22

 66:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 67:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 68:  2 12 28* 8 10 18 22

 69:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 70:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 71:  2 12 28  8 10*18 22

 72:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 73:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 74:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 75:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 76:  2 12 28  8 10 18 22

 77:  2 28 12+ 8 10 18 22

 78:  2 28 12 10+ 8+18 22

 79:  2 28 12 10  8 18 22

 80:  2 28 12 10  8 18 22

 81:  2 28 12 10  8 18 22

 82:  2 28 12 10  8 18 22

 83:  2 28 12 10  8 18 22

 84:  2 12 28*10  8 18

 85:  2 12 10  8 18 28*

 86:  2 12 10  8 18 28

 87:  2 12 10  8 18 28

 88:  2 12 10  8 18 28

 89:  2 12 10  8 18

 90:  2 12 10  8 18

 91:  2 12 10  8 18

 92:  2 12 10  8

 93:  2 12 10  8

 94:  2 12 10  8

 95:  2 12

 96:  2 12



*  pit stop

+  pit stop with driver change

Standings at One-Quarter Distance

Pos  # Driver	  Laps  Total Time   Last Lap   Gap to L   Gap to P   Gap on R

 1  12 González	  25	46'07.3"	1'50.1"	   0.0"	   0.0"	   2.8"

 2   2 Fangio		25	46'16.6"	1'49.9"	   9.3"	   9.3"	   9.3"

 3   6 Moss		  25	46'27.2"	1'49.3"	  19.9"	  10.6"	   8.7"

 4  28 Schell		25	46'36.5"	1'49.3"	  29.2"	   9.3"	   9.3"

 5  18 Mieres		25	47'02.7"	1'50.9"	  55.4"	  26.2"	  26.2"

 6   8 Herrmann	  25	47'16.8"	1'54.5"	1'09.5"	  14.1"	  14.1"

 7  22 Musso		 25	47'37.9"	1'54.1"	1'30.6"	  21.1"	   0.1"

 8  14 Trintignant   25	47'41.7"	1'53.2"	1'34.4"	   3.8"	   3.8"

 9  10 Farina/

	   Maglioli	  25	48'02.5"	1'58.0"	1'55.2"	  20.8"	   9.6"

10  20 Mantovani/

	   Behra		 24	47'37.8"	1'52.3"	3'20.6"	1'33.3"	  21.0"

11  42 Iglésias	  24	47'52.9"	1'56.6"	3'35.7"	  15.1"	   0.0"

12  36 Castellotti/

	   Villoresi	 23	46'18.5"	1'52.6"	3'53.2"	  22.2"	   1.9"

13  26 Bucci/

	   Menditéguy	22	47'52.9"	2'00.3"	7'18.6"	2'40.2"	  11.2"

Standings at Half Distance

Pos  # Driver	  Laps  Total Time   Last Lap   Gap to L   Gap to P   Gap on R

 1   2 Fangio		48  1:30'13.0"	1'49.1"	   0.0"	   0.0"	   7.5"

 2  28 Schell/

	   Behra		 48  1:30'24.3"	1'51.0"	  11.3"	  11.3"	  11.3"

 3  18 Mieres		48  1:31'00.9"	1'52.5"	  47.9"	  36.6"	  27.2"

 4  12 González/

	   Farina/

	   Trintignant/

	   González	  48  1:31'43.4"	1'49.2"	1'30.4"	  42.5"	  27.4"

 5   8 Herrmann/

	   Kling		 48  1:31'54.8"	1'51.3"	1'41.8"	  11.4"	  11.4"

 6  10 Farina/

	   Maglioli/

	   Trintignant   47  1:31'16.0"	1'58.4"	2'52.1"	1'12.5"	  15.1"

 7  26 Bucci/

	   Menditéguy	44  1:31'57.9"	1'52.4"	9'01.5"	7'00.5"	   3.1"

 8  22 Musso/

	   Mantovani	 39  1:36'40.0"   20'28.6"   23'59.8"	  22.9"	  22.9"

 9  20 Mantovani/

	   Behra/

	   Musso		 36  1:30'33.7"	1'54.4"   23'36.6"   13'33.1"	   9.4"

Standings at Three-Quarter Distance

Pos  # Driver	  Laps  Total Time   Last Lap   Gap to L   Gap to P   Gap on R

 1   2 Fangio		73  2:16'50.9"	1'52.2"	   0.0"	   0.0"	   3.4"

 2  12 González/

	   Farina/

	   Trintignant/

	   González	  73  2:17'31.3"	1'50.7"	  40.4"	  40.4"	  19.2"

 3  28 Schell/

	   Behra		 73  2:18'28.9"	1'53.2"	1'38.0"	  57.6"	  57.6"

 4   8 Herrmann/

	   Kling		 72  2:17'03.0"	1'53.4"	2'04.3"	  27.3"	  12.1"

 5  10 Farina/

	   Maglioli/

	   Trintignant   71  2:17'12.1"	2'24.4"	4'04.7"	2'02.5"	   1.9"

 6  18 Mieres		67  2:17'10.2"	1'52.1"   11'32.0"	7'58.1"	   7.2"

 7  22 Musso/

	   Mantovani/

	   Schell		61  2:18'55.4"	2'23.9"   24'37.2"   12'57.6"	  12.8"

Car-by-Car Race Analysis

Car #2, Mercedes-Benz

handled by Fangio throughout race
stopped at the end of lap 35 (17:05, fuel vapourisation, driver fatigue)
resumed after about 1'30" and took lead shortly afterwards, leading to finish
fastest lap 1'48.3" (lap 45)

Car #4, Mercedes-Benz

Kling, crashed out on lap 3 (16:04)
fastest lap 1'50.8" (lap 2)

Car #6, Mercedes-Benz

Moss, stopped at the end of lap 30 (16:56, fuel vapourisation, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'49.3" (lap 2)
apparently repaired, but no driver availbale (Kling not yet returned to pits)
withdrawn

Car #8, Mercedes-Benz

Herrmann, stopped at the end of lap 42 (17:20, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'52.0"
to Kling, stopped at the end of lap 78 (18:29, exhaust fumes, oiled brakes)
fastest lap 1'51.2"
to Moss, ran to finish
fastest lap 1'51.1" (lap 93)

Car #10, Ferrari

Farina, stopped at the end of lap 21 (16:40, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'50.8" (lap 18)
to Maglioli, stopped at the end of lap 46 (17:29, faster driver availbale)
fastest lap 1'55.4"
to Trintignant, stopped (?) at the end of lap 59 (17:54)
fastest lap 1'51.1"
possibly to Farina, stopped (?) at the end of lap 71 (18:17)
fastest lap 1'51.2"
back to Trintignant (?), stopped at the end of lap 78 (18:31, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'52.0"
to Maglioli, ran to finish
fastest lap 1'54.0" (possibly 1'51.0")

Car #12, Ferrari

González, stopped at the end of lap 26 (16:49, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'48.9"
to Farina, stopped at the end of lap 38 (17:12, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'51.2"
to Trintignant, stopped at the end of lap 44 (17:24, faster driver available)
fastest lap 1'52.7"
to González, spun on lap 76 (18:23, lost about 40")
stopped at the end of lap 77 (18:26, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'48.8" (laps 53 & 54)
to Farina, ran to finish
fastest lap 1'51.0"

Car #14, Ferrari

Trintignant, stopped (?) at the end of lap 35 (17:07)
stopped (?) at the end of lap 37 (17:11, out with broken valve)
fastest lap 1'51.4" (laps 4 & 7)

Car #16, Maserati

Behra, crashed with Schell (#28) (?) on lap 2
stopped (?) at the end of lap 3 (16:06, out with crash damage)
fastest lap 1'57.7" (lap 1)

Car #18, Maserati

apparently handled by Mieres throughout race
stopped at the end of lap 42 (17:19)
fastest lap 1'50.9"
possibly to Schell, stopped at the end of lap 53 (17:40, replaced fuel pump, lost about 10'30")
fastest lap 1'51.8" (possibly 1'50.4")
back to Mieres (?), ran to finish
fastest lap 1'50.0" (lap 66)

Car #20, Maserati

Mantovani, stopped at the end of lap 8 (16:16, faster driver available)
fastest lap 1'54.5"
to Behra, spun (?) on lap 12 (16:24, lost about 25")
stopped at the end of lap 26 (16:51, stationary for about 20')
fastest lap 1'51.8" (lap 19)
to Musso, stopped at the end of lap 51 (17:59, stationary for about 9'30")
out on lap 56 with fuel starvation (18:17)
fastest lap 1'52.3"

Car #22, Maserati

Musso, stopped at the end of lap 31 (16:59, stationary for about 3')
fastest lap 1'51.4"
to Mantovani, stopped (?) at the end of lap 38 (17:16, lost about 30")
stopped at the end of lap 39 (17:18, stationary for about 18')
stopped at the end of lap 61 (18:18)
fastest lap 1'51.3" (lap 57, possibly 1'50.9", lap 33)
to Schell, ran to finish
fastest lap 1'52.2"

Car #24, Maserati

Menditéguy, crashed with Birger (#40), out on lap 2 (16:02)
fastest lap 2'03.9 (lap 1)

Car #26, Maserati

Bucci, stopped at the end of lap 21 (16:41, stationary for about 4'30")
fastest lap 1'54.9"
to Menditéguy, stopped at the end of lap 34 (17:11, stationary for about 2'30")
fastest lap 1'50.2" (lap 27)
possibly only now to Menditéguy, stopped at the end of lap 51 (17:45)
fastest lap 1'51.1"
to Schell, out on lap 56 with fuel starvation (17:54)
fastest lap 1'53.3"

Car #28, Maserati

Schell, crashed with Behra (#16) on lap 2 (lost about 5")
stopped at the end of lap 41 (17:17, driver fatigue)
fastest lap 1'49.3"
to Behra, spun (?) on lap 51 (17:36, lost about 10")
stopped (?) at the end of lap 68 (18:08)
stopped (?) at the end of lap 84 (18:40, stationary for about 1'30")
stopped at the end of lap 85 (18:43, stationary for about 12')
ran to finish at reduced pace
fastest lap 1'49.1" (lap 49)

Car #30, Maserati

Uria, stopped (?) at the end of lap 19 (16:39)
out on lap 23 with fuel starvation (16:46)
fastest lap 1'57.5" (lap 22, possibly 1'52.1, lap 2)

Car #32, Lancia

Ascari, crashed out on lap 22 (16:39)
fastest lap 1'48.8" (lap 21)

Car #34, Lancia

Villoresi, stopped at the end of lap 2 (16:04, out with broken fuel line)
fastest lap 2'06.6" (lap 1)

Car #36, Lancia

Castellotti, spun (?) on lap 6 (16:12, lost about 1')
spun (?) on lap 11 (16:23, lost about 45")
stopped at the end of lap 17 (16:34, faster driver available)
fastest lap 1'51.7"
to Villoresi, crashed out on lap 36 (17:09)
fastest lap 1'50.1" (lap 30)

Car #38, Gordini

Bayol, out on lap 8 with broken transmission (16:15)
fastest lap 1'59.5" (lap 2)

Car #40, Gordini

Birger, crashed with Menditéguy (#24), out on lap 2 (16:02)
fastest lap 2'04.6 (lap 1)

Car #42, Gordini

Iglésias, spun (?) on lap 3 (16:06, lost about 30")
stopped (?) at the end of lap 32 (17:05, lost about 2')
out on lap 39 with broken transmission (17:18)
fastest lap 1'55.3" (lap 19)

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 14 November 2002 - 19:34

Fantastic Michael :clap:
Well worth the wait :up:

#22 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 November 2002 - 19:47

Gobsmackingly impressive! :clap: :clap:

#23 Don Capps

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Posted 14 November 2002 - 19:59

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am at a loss for the proper words, but "Outstanding!" and "Superb work!" quickly come to my lips..... My goodness, but this is a wonderful achievement. It is grossly inadequate to say that I am Impressed.....

#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 November 2002 - 22:37

Fines!!! FANTASTIC... :love: Is it right? :stoned:

DCN

#25 VAR1016

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Posted 14 November 2002 - 22:56

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
In all of Mike Hawthorn's writings he talks about his height causing him a problem when driving another team driver's car.

Because all drivers are not proportionally the size of a jockey, it would be extremely difficult for any of the modern day drivers to swap cars..In most instances the backup car brought by a team to the circuit is set up for the number one driver. If the number two is tall like Gerhard Berger or has a greater than 26 inch waist size, and he damages his car......Oh well.

In the old days many F-1 cars were sold to different sized customers. Switching wasn't a problem.

Gil


Somewhere I have a picture comparing Hawthorn's and Collins's Ferraris - the pictures demonstrate that Hawthorn's car was a fair bit longer, with a section let in at the scuttle.

PdeRL

#26 fines

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Posted 15 November 2002 - 14:08

Thanks for the accolades, guys! :) Questions, anyone? Maybe we can still improve on this!?

#27 ensign14

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Posted 15 November 2002 - 20:32

Absolutely fantastic, I never knew that Mieres was relieved by Harry Schell - certainly Arree did not pick up a point for his share. Certainly Roberto seems to have been a star and but for a lengthy stop could well have come 2nd.

#28 fines

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Posted 16 November 2002 - 08:44

Originally posted by ensign14
Absolutely fantastic, I never knew that Mieres was relieved by Harry Schell - certainly Arree did not pick up a point for his share.

Well, on the subject of Schell relieving Mieres, I don't think it happened but one source (German magazine Das Auto) reported it and since it's not inconceivable I added the possibility in the race analysis part, but ommitted it from the results, standings and lap chart data. Same with Farina's second stint in his original car (#10). Again, Das Auto specifically states this but, on reflection, I excluded it from the main data because I thought it highly improbable.

Originally posted by ensign14
Certainly Roberto seems to have been a star and but for a lengthy stop could well have come 2nd.

Yes, Mieres drove a wonderful race. When he resumed after his lengthy pit stop, he was 6 laps and half a minute behind Fangio, and in the last 35 laps or so had this reduced to 5 laps and less than one and a half minute - quite impressive!

#29 Roger Clark

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Posted 16 November 2002 - 10:52

Fines, may I ask whether your analysis identified any errors in the Autocourse lap chart?

#30 fines

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Posted 16 November 2002 - 16:46

This is the lap chart according to the Autocourse data:

G: 12 32 2 16 10 4 28 6 40 8 34 36 24 14 38 18 42 22 20 26 30

1: 32 2 6 12 4 28 16 8 10 18 36 42 14 22 24 40 26 34 20 38 30
2: 32 2 6 12 4 8 28 18 36 10 22 14 30 42 26 20 38 16
3: 32 12 6 2 8 28 18 10 36 22 14 30 20 26 38 42
4: 32 12 2 6 8 28 18 36 22 14 10 20 26 30 38 42
5: 32 2 12 6 8 28 18 36 14 22 10 20 26 30 38 42
6: 32 2 12 6 28 8 18 22 14 10 20 26 30 38 42 36
7: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 14 10 20 26 30 38 42 36
8: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 14 10 26 30 36 42 20
9: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 14 10 26 30 36 42 20
10: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 30 36 42 20
11: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 30 42 20 36
12: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 30 42 20 36
13: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 30 42 20 36
14: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 42 30 20 36
15: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 42 30 36 20
16: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 42 30 20 36
17: 32 12 2 6 28 8 18 22 10 14 26 42 20 30 36
18: 32 12 2 6 28 18 8 10 22 14 26 42 20 30 36
19: 32 12 2 6 28 18 8 10 22 14 26 20 42 36 30
20: 32 12 2 6 28 18 8 10 22 14 26 20 42 36 30
21: 32 12 2 6 28 18 8 22 14 10 20 42 36 30 26
22: 12 2 6 28 18 8 22 14 10 20 42 36 30 26
23: 12 2 6 28 18 8 22 14 10 20 42 36 26
24: 12 2 6 28 18 8 22 14 10 20 42 36 26
25: 12 2 6 28 18 8 22 14 10 20 42 36 26
26: 2 6 28 18 12 8 22 14 10 42 36 26 20
27: 2 6 28 18 12 8 22 14 10 36 42 26 20
28: 2 6 28 18 12 8 14 22 10 36 42 26 20
29: 2 6 28 18 12 8 14 22 10 36 42 26 20
30: 2 28 18 12 8 14 22 10 36 42 26 20
31: 2 28 18 12 8 14 10 36 42 22 26 20
32: 2 28 18 12 8 14 10 36 22 42 26 20
33: 2 28 18 12 8 14 10 36 22 42 26 20
34: 2 28 18 12 8 14 10 36 22 42 26 20
35: 28 18 12 2 8 14 10 36 22 42 26 20
36: 28 18 12 2 8 14 10 22 42 26 20
37: 28 18 12 2 8 10 22 42 26 20
38: 28 18 2 8 12 10 22 42 26 20
39: 28 18 2 8 12 10 26 20 22
40: 28 18 2 12 8 10 26 20 22
41: 18 28 2 12 8 10 26 20 22
42: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
43: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
44: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
45: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
46: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
47: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
48: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
49: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
50: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 20 22
51: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 22 20
52: 2 28 18 12 8 10 26 22 20
53: 2 28 12 18 8 10 26 22 20
54: 2 28 12 18 8 10 26 22 20
55: 2 28 12 18 8 10 26 22 20
56: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
57: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
58: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
59: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
60: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
61: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
62: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
63: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
64: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
65: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
66: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
67: 2 28 12 18 8 10 22
68: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
69: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
70: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
71: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
72: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
73: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
74: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
75: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
76: 2 12 28 18 8 10 22
77: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
78: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
79: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
80: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
81: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
82: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
83: 2 18 28 12 8 10 22
84: 2 18 12 28 8 10
85: 2 18 12 8 10 28
86: 2 18 12 8 10 28
87: 2 18 12 8 10 28
88: 2 18 12 8 10 28
89: 2 18 12 8 10
90: 2 18 12 8 10
91: 2 18 12 8 10
92: 2 12 8 10
93: 2 12 8 10
94: 2 12 8 10
95: 2 12
96: 2 12

As said, I had to juggle around with a few lap times, but mine are only guesses, it has to be stressed! For example, Autocourse shows Uria's 2nd lap to be 1'52.1", which I thought highly unlikely, so I substituted it with a 1'59.1" - whether this is any closer to his actual lap time is open to speculation... :(

Mostly, I accepted the Autocourse data and carefully checked for any unlikely times, then tried to figure out why and how a mistake could have happened (e.g. mixed-up digits, cars or laps confused etc.). In the end, it is very much a possibility that more or less all the lap times are off the actual marks, so that what we have here is no more than an educated guess.

So, to answer your question: No, not really - I can't pinpoint any specific errors! :

#31 stevew01

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Posted 26 December 2002 - 00:36

This is great work, Fines.

A number of years ago I began collating the information I could find on the World Championship GP's into a word processing format.

I used Paul Sheldon's Black Books as my starting point and added extra information from Motor Sport and Autocourse so that I had entries, practice session times, grid, results, fastest laps, lap chart and laptimes. Time constraints meant that I only reached about 1960.

I have compared my lap chart to Fines and find there are some differences in the total times. Like Fines I made some adjustments to some of the lap times that did not make sense or disagreed with the lap chart (I found that the Autocourse lap times in the 1950's very rarely matched the lap charts).

I have converted the 1955 Argentine GP into a pdf file. If anyone wishes to see the file I could email it to somebody who has web space so it can be uploaded. Please PM me if you are interested.


Steve

#32 fines

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 00:52

Here's Steve's wonderful analysis to download for everybody:

http://members.atlas...ines/5501ra.pdf

Will get back to this topic...

#33 Kvadrat

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 15:26

Here's Steve's wonderful analysis to download for everybody:

http://members.atlas...ines/5501ra.pdf

 

Please share this file again if it still exists.



#34 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 17:27

Vladimir, pm me your email address, and I will happily send you the file, and throw in an improved version of my GapChart analysis as well.