19 replies to this topic

[arttidesco]

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Doing some back ground reading for a blog on 33 EJB, pictured here at Prodrive a couple of weeks ago, I came across a much repeated glaring error, 5th paragraph, attributed to information from the BMW Group.

Having had an Austin A40 on a D reg in our family in 1966 I know there is no way Rauno Aaltonen could possibly have driven LBL 6D on the Monte in 1964, could anyone please give me correct registrations for the six 1964 works Monte Carlo Minis ?

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses which will be duly credited in my blog.

[Allan Lupton]

FWIW DVLA records LBL6D as a 1275 cc car first registered 30/12/66

[Tim Murray]

According to Peter Browning in The Works Minis these were the 1964 Monte works cars:

477ABL (Baxter)
18CRX (Thompson)
277EBL (Mayman)
33EJB (Hopkirk)
569FMO (Aaltonen)
570FMO (Makinen)

LBL6D was Aaltonen's winning car on the 1967 Monte.

Edit: having now read Ralph's link, it's obvious that the three registrations they quote are the three Monte-winning cars, as the other one, AJB44B, is Makinen's winning car from 1965. Someone has got very confused, somehow.

Edited by Tim Murray, 12 April 2011 - 08:16.

[cooper997]

LBL 6D is Rauno's 1967 Monte winner.

The 1964 Monte Carlo BMC works entries, should be this:-

#37 Hopkirk/Liddon 1071 Cooper S 33EJB 1st overall/1st in class.
#39 Baxter/McMillan 997 Cooper 477BBL 43rd overall/2nd in class.
#105 Aaltonen/Ambrose 1071 Cooper S 569FMO 7th overall/3rd in class.
#182 Makinen/Vanson 1071 Cooper S 570FMO 4th overall/2nd in class.
#187 Thompson/Heys 970? Cooper S 18CRX crashed
#189 Mayman/Domleo 1071 Cooper S 277EBL crashed

Two other BMC factory entries were:-

#83 Morley/Morley 1798 MGB 7DBL 17th overall/1st GT class
#243 Wisdom/Miles 1098 MG1100 399CJB

The 970cc entry is questionable because, officially that engine capacity, and the 1275 weren't released until March 11th, 1964. With RAC Homologation being granted one month later.

Stephen

Edit - corrected rego for Makinen's car

Edited by cooper997, 12 April 2011 - 10:21.

[arttidesco]

LBL 6D is Rauno's 1967 Monte winner.

The 1964 Monte Carlo BMC works entries, should be this:-

#37 Hopkirk/Liddon 1071 Cooper S 33EJB 1st overall/1st in class.
#39 Baxter/McMillan 997 Cooper 477BBL 43rd overall/2nd in class.
#105 Aaltonen/Ambrose 1071 Cooper S 569FMO 7th overall/3rd in class.
#182 Makinen/Vanson 1071 Cooper S 579FMO 4th overall/2nd in class.
#187 Thompson/Heys 970? Cooper S 18CRX crashed
#189 Mayman/Domleo 1071 Cooper S 277EBL crashed

Two other BMC factory entries were:-

#83 Morley/Morley 1798 MGB 7DBL 17th overall/1st GT class
#243 Wisdom/Miles 1098 MG1100 399CJB

The 970cc entry is questionable because, officially that engine capacity, and the 1275 weren't released until March 11th, 1964. With RAC Homologation being granted one month later.

Stephen

Thanks for your help Stephen and Alan. I'll let you know as soon as the blog is up

Edit and not forgeting TIm

Edited by arttidesco, 12 April 2011 - 08:33.

[Darren Galpin]

Just a quick note - the data I have for the '64 Monte Mini car registrations agree's with Tim - Baxter and Makinen have different reg's in Stephen's data. - See http://www.dlg.speed...l/64miscra.html

[Tim Murray]

#187 Thompson/Heys 970? Cooper S 18CRX crashed

The 970cc entry is questionable because, officially that engine capacity, and the 1275 weren't released until March 11th, 1964. With RAC Homologation being granted one month later.

The Works Minis lists this as a 1071.

[David McKinney]

Don't forget that registration-plates could be switched from car to car - and were, as I understand it, among BMC team cars...

[Fred Gallagher]

The Works Minis lists this as a 1071.

....while the official programme says 997cc!

Fred

[cooper997]

Just a quick note - the data I have for the '64 Monte Mini car registrations agree's with Tim - Baxter and Makinen have different reg's in Stephen's data. - See http://www.dlg.speed...l/64miscra.html

Well spotted Darren, my mistake with a slip of the finger on Makinen's car. Correct rego is 570FMO.

As for the other issue with the Baxter car, 477BBL is correct. Early editions of the Browning tome are wrong, the late 90s edition is corrected. The March 1964 issue of Safety Fast has a photo of Baxter's Cooper with 477BBL on the bonnet.

As for the 970? scenario with the Thompson car, the late 90's edition of The Works Minis lists that. Nothing would surprise me if an early 970 found its way into the car, to get some feedback on that engine. Even though as Fred has posted the official programme states '997'. Unfortunately both sets of the official results don't list rego numbers or engine capacities.

Stephen

[arttidesco]

Don't forget that registration-plates could be switched from car to car - and were, as I understand it, among BMC team cars...

Surely that would risk disqualification unless the entry numbers were also swapped David ?

Thanks for the corrections and updates Darren, Tim, Fred and Stephen :-)

[Tim Murray]

As for the other issue with the Baxter car, 477BBL is correct. Early editions of the Browning tome are wrong, the late 90s edition is corrected. The March 1964 issue of Safety Fast has a photo of Baxter's Cooper with 477BBL on the bonnet.

Thanks, Stephen - I've corrected my copy of the book.

[David McKinney]

Surely that would risk disqualification unless the entry numbers were also swapped David ?

You misunderstand my point
A Mini-Cooper carrying reg.no. ABC123 in one event might not necessarily be the Mini-Cooper ABC123 seen in another event a few months later

[Tim Murray]

As for the 970? scenario with the Thompson car, the late 90's edition of The Works Minis lists that. Nothing would surprise me if an early 970 found its way into the car, to get some feedback on that engine. Even though as Fred has posted the official programme states '997'. Unfortunately both sets of the official results don't list rego numbers or engine capacities.

FWIW, The Works Minis lists the engine number of this car as 9F.SA.H. 15276. According to the Mini-Cooper serial number coding section of DCN's Cooper Cars this engine number equates to a 997 cc Cooper. So presumably this car started its life as a 997 Cooper, but, as has been stated, might not have retained that engine throughout its career.

[arttidesco]

You misunderstand my point
A Mini-Cooper carrying reg.no. ABC123 in one event might not necessarily be the Mini-Cooper ABC123 seen in another event a few months later

I get your drift David

[arttidesco]

Thanks to you all for your help with this blog

[cooper997]

FWIW, The Works Minis lists the engine number of this car as 9F.SA.H. 15276. According to the Mini-Cooper serial number coding section of DCN's Cooper Cars this engine number equates to a 997 cc Cooper. So presumably this car started its life as a 997 Cooper, but, as has been stated, might not have retained that engine throughout its career.

Tim, you're right, in original form '18 CRX' would have started life as a 997cc Cooper. When Pauline Mayman/Valerie Domleo competed with the car for its first event, the Alpine Rally, June 20th - 26th, 1963, it was run as a Mini Cooper and the pair won the 'Coupe des Dames'. Other BMC Competitions Dept drivers were running car's in 'S' guise in the same event.

Bit of trivia, when checking a file earlier and '477BBL' came to my attention again. This car, as we've already discussed being Raymond Baxter's 1964 Monte entry. The reason it came to my attention was because a Mini with that rego was driven over the top of Peter Harper's Sunbeam Rapier at the May 11th, 1963 Silverstone International Trophy meeting. The lady in the Mini was Christabel Carlisle.

Stephen

[arttidesco]

Tim, you're right, in original form '18 CRX' would have started life as a 997cc Cooper. When Pauline Mayman/Valerie Domleo competed with the car for its first event, the Alpine Rally, June 20th - 26th, 1963, it was run as a Mini Cooper and the pair won the 'Coupe des Dames'. Other BMC Competitions Dept drivers were running car's in 'S' guise in the same event.

Bit of trivia, when checking a file earlier and '477BBL' came to my attention again. This car, as we've already discussed being Raymond Baxter's 1964 Monte entry. The reason it came to my attention was because a Mini with that rego was driven over the top of Peter Harper's Sunbeam Rapier at the May 11th, 1963 Silverstone International Trophy meeting. The lady in the Mini was Christabel Carlisle.

Stephen

Would this have been before VIN numbers were routinely stamped into the door frames of vehicles ?

[Hamish Robson]

Would this have been before VIN numbers were routinely stamped into the door frames of vehicles ?

Hi Art,

It was only with the advent of the late '90s World Rally Car did the rules state that the chassis number had to be stamped on the rollcage/body shell. Even in the early '90s registration numbers were frequently being juggled between cars (I witnessed this first-hand), it was easy to simply rivet the required chassis number to the required body shell and make some new number plates.

Always be suspicious of "Genuine Ex-Works" rally cars!

Edited by Hamish Robson, 13 April 2011 - 11:48.

[arttidesco]

Hi Art,

It was only with the advent of the late '90s World Rally Car did the rules state that the chassis number had to be stamped on the rollcage/body shell. Even in the early '90s registration numbers were frequently being juggled between cars (I witnessed this first-hand), it was easy to simply rivet the required chassis number to the required body shell and make some new number plates.

Always be suspicious of "Genuine Ex-Works" rally cars!

Thanks for the inside info Hamish, I'll be as cautious about rally cars as any other competition vehicle in future