90 replies to this topic

[picblanc]

Thats sealed it for me, I will not watch Motocock ever again (well at least till it goes back to prototype racing)

Edited by picblanc, 02 July 2011 - 16:18.

[rd500]

wel folks i tried, tried to watch the wsb.
gave it a chance after never seeing any of their races since 2002 [which was the local ones which the bsbs riders were in and it was only on the tv, never been or will go to a wsb round]

couldnt last long [ thats what the wife says aswell :lol:] before the overhyped shouting commentry got to me and i had to switch off.

have you noticed at the moment they are constantly talking about close racing all the time and this in turn equals whats considered a good race.

after reading the excellent book that mr blanchard provided me focusing on the 60s gps with yamaha it put a thought into my head.

now its becoming very clear that the current moto gp series is being developed to provide close racing, especially the moto2 which is designed to provide the 30 bikes or whatever to run nose to tail as a group over the whole race distance which is what happens when a marketing company takes over a sport.

we know already that technological advancement has been scrapped in favour of this type of stagnent racing class and of course things like the one tyre rule was brought about for this single purpose.

i ask you guys to remember racing back when you used to go to watch racing [not competing]whether it was 20/30/40+ years ago and ask why did you go?

i went because whether it was gps,international or british events because of one thing - works bikes and riders.

as races were not tampered with to provide close racing what you got to see was man and machine at the limit on gp spec machinery or if it was the bigger races pure factory exotica, you had a mixture of machines and it didnt really seem to matter what the gaps were - it was the spectactle, if it was a close race then so be it but if it was strung out then nothing changed only the gaps in between.

motorcycle racing prided itself on the ability to produce overtaking and this has now been exploited as the tv audience demands this as the only races you hear about in the past 30 years are the ones in which there was a very close dice or it was a race to the line and the rest are considered "boring"

its sad to read in the press or hear a commentator saying a race is boring now but as we know the race is not boring [rider exempt dont know about the machinery] it is only to the tv audience it is boring hence the demand to keep average joes attention glued to to the box, hence it seems why in many sports now there is a bigger build up to an event than the event itself.

i know someone who has this approach to motorcycle racing, if its a boring race then they switch off. but is it a boring race or only perceived by tv as a boring race?

it reminds me of something bernie ecclestone said in the 80s about motorcycle racing.

"does it really matter if 5 guys swap position for 20 laps? the end result is the end result, the real meaning of the sport is can a guy win on something or not"

sorry to bore but a few thoughts from my ravaged brain.

cheers ian

[larryd]

I just heaved a comment up on their web thingy,but I doubt if it will get past the moderators.Its not what they want to hear

HW (AKA Grumpy Git)

You're wasting your time, Andy - like I've been saying for 10 years plus now, it's Show Business not sport.

I've long since given up on BSB TV - young Whitham is worth a listen, but I can't stand that fat red-headed grinning vacancy Carter with his cherry-red mike . . . . . . . .

Let's all throw up together?

[fil2.8]

You're wasting your time, Andy - like I've been saying for 10 years plus now, it's Show Business not sport.

I've long since given up on BSB TV - young Whitham is worth a listen, but I can't stand that fat red-headed grinning vacancy Carter with his cherry-red mike . . . . . . . .

Let's all throw up together?

Yes , agreed , Larry , that Carter's a knob , IMHO , bring back the other Carter , at least he knew what he was talking about ...........................

[Russell Burrows]

wel folks i tried, tried to watch the wsb.
gave it a chance after never seeing any of their races since 2002 [which was the local ones which the bsbs riders were in and it was only on the tv, never been or will go to a wsb round]

couldnt last long [ thats what the wife says aswell :lol:] before the overhyped shouting commentry got to me and i had to switch off.

have you noticed at the moment they are constantly talking about close racing all the time and this in turn equals whats considered a good race.

after reading the excellent book that mr blanchard provided me focusing on the 60s gps with yamaha it put a thought into my head.

now its becoming very clear that the current moto gp series is being developed to provide close racing, especially the moto2 which is designed to provide the 30 bikes or whatever to run nose to tail as a group over the whole race distance which is what happens when a marketing company takes over a sport.

we know already that technological advancement has been scrapped in favour of this type of stagnent racing class and of course things like the one tyre rule was brought about for this single purpose.

i ask you guys to remember racing back when you used to go to watch racing [not competing]whether it was 20/30/40+ years ago and ask why did you go?

i went because whether it was gps,international or british events because of one thing - works bikes and riders.

as races were not tampered with to provide close racing what you got to see was man and machine at the limit on gp spec machinery or if it was the bigger races pure factory exotica, you had a mixture of machines and it didnt really seem to matter what the gaps were - it was the spectactle, if it was a close race then so be it but if it was strung out then nothing changed only the gaps in between.

motorcycle racing prided itself on the ability to produce overtaking and this has now been exploited as the tv audience demands this as the only races you hear about in the past 30 years are the ones in which there was a very close dice or it was a race to the line and the rest are considered "boring"

its sad to read in the press or hear a commentator saying a race is boring now but as we know the race is not boring [rider exempt dont know about the machinery] it is only to the tv audience it is boring hence the demand to keep average joes attention glued to to the box, hence it seems why in many sports now there is a bigger build up to an event than the event itself.

i know someone who has this approach to motorcycle racing, if its a boring race then they switch off. but is it a boring race or only perceived by tv as a boring race?

it reminds me of something bernie ecclestone said in the 80s about motorcycle racing.

"does it really matter if 5 guys swap position for 20 laps? the end result is the end result, the real meaning of the sport is can a guy win on something or not"

sorry to bore but a few thoughts from my ravaged brain.

cheers ian

Ian, the clue lies in the name of the sport; races are usually more exciting than processions. This, of course, is the reason for the 'tampering' that has gone on since the sport first evolved; racing 50's against 500's might have been entertaining for a bit, but ultimately it would probably have been a bit processional and therefore boring. Do you really think that close racing should be secondary to anything? The sport is a spectacle or it's nothing. And is your stroker bias so entrenched that you can't see the engineering brilliance of current Moto GP bikes? The problem is not that they make the 'wrong' noise and don't smoke, rather it's that there are not enough of them to create a proper spectacle.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 26 September 2011 - 18:08.

[exclubracer]

Yes , agreed , Larry , that Carter's a knob , IMHO , bring back the other Carter , at least he knew what he was talking about ...........................

Aaaah yes Phil you're spot on with that, Crisp Carton, a proverbial fountain of 2-wheeled racing knowledge

[fil2.8]

Aaaah yes Phil you're spot on with that, Crisp Carton, a proverbial fountain of 2-wheeled racing knowledge

with the personality of a pea , to boot , IMHO , of course

[rd500]

hi russell, i wasnt haing a dig at 4 strokes or anything like that what i was talking about was the way the sport have provided a veil of what is perceived as a good race or a boring race and how they have manufactured it to be like this.

as ive said before i havent got a problem with 4 strokes, i just dont like how they have been forced upon me and my preference has been taken away without gettitng a fair chance at the fight - only then after they have out engineered a 2 stroke engine will i consider them technical excellence.

its no secret that a rc211v had a slight bhp per litre advantage over something like a 4 cylinder 500 honda from the 60s, so that doesnt really constitute engineering and advancment or am i missing something?


there has got to be a diffrence between a race that is "adjusted to run close" or a race that is a all out race between man and machine at the limit.

[rotrax]

hi russell, i wasnt haing a dig at 4 strokes or anything like that what i was talking about was the way the sport have provided a veil of what is perceived as a good race or a boring race and how they have manufactured it to be like this.

as ive said before i havent got a problem with 4 strokes, i just dont like how they have been forced upon me and my preference has been taken away without gettitng a fair chance at the fight - only then after they have out engineered a 2 stroke engine will i consider them technical excellence.

its no secret that a rc211v had a slight bhp per litre advantage over something like a 4 cylinder 500 honda from the 60s, so that doesnt really constitute engineering and advancment or am i missing something?


there has got to be a diffrence between a race that is "adjusted to run close" or a race that is a all out race between man and machine at the limit.

Hi, although I have sympathy with your position on this, bottom line is that two strokes pollute more-even with high tech injection and catalists. The racing may be better and the jockey's can have a blast riding strokers but the factories must keep their eye on the ball. Streetbikes are now fourstroke in the 125 and above classes with the exeption of a few "bobby dodger" enduro/moto x types so that is what will be used in current racing. It is a done deal. In the dim and distant past a member of the Leatherhead Club gave a talk on his visit to the Dutch TT at Assen. He went with a mate two up and camping gear on his 8 month old 750 Kawasaki triple.In the pissing rain and against a strong headwind they ran out of fuel after 52 miles on the trip from a full tank-about 14 MPG! In 1978 I rode a nicely prepared Kawasaki KX 400 Sidecar in the Welsh Two Day Trial. It went very well causing the 750 Norton and Triumph boys to take notice. BUT what an awfull thing to ride for six or seven hours each day-ring-a ding- a-ding or what! It was light,it was fast but it vibrated like crazy and hunted unless on the gas. Not condusive to a clear head when following a tricky route and over bad terrain. Better for some shorter diciplines I guess.

Edited by rotrax, 27 September 2011 - 17:22.

[lesgoose]

Sure 2 strokes pollute more but what about the making of the engine more alloy casting in a 4 stroke engine bigger head etc.It takes as much electricity to run an alloy producing plant as a small town.A 4 stroke has more oil in it more waste to treat yes a 2 stroke burns oil due to its need for lubrication Pros and cons for each design of engine.Lets get back to the days of if you wanted to be at the top you had to come up with the goods.Years ago Honda had to come up with the 125 5cylinder and 250 6cylinder bikes to compete yamahas answer was the 4 cylinder jobs.The trouble today is the marketing men like everything now if more money can be made then so be it even if it kills it milk it for what its worth.Always reminds me of the soap powder adverts "gets your whites whiter than white" or "new improved" .You mean to tell me white can be more white than white or we all bought an inferior product before.Years ago joe public got up off its back side and went to races now they prefer to sit in the comfy chair watching on a box so thats seen as the number one way to get your advertising over to joe public.Long live the classic racing much better than seeing a 25 bike back log of traffic just to please the media and advertising men.

[rotrax]

Sure 2 strokes pollute more but what about the making of the engine more alloy casting in a 4 stroke engine bigger head etc.It takes as much electricity to run an alloy producing plant as a small town.A 4 stroke has more oil in it more waste to treat yes a 2 stroke burns oil due to its need for lubrication Pros and cons for each design of engine.Lets get back to the days of if you wanted to be at the top you had to come up with the goods.Years ago Honda had to come up with the 125 5cylinder and 250 6cylinder bikes to compete yamahas answer was the 4 cylinder jobs.The trouble today is the marketing men like everything now if more money can be made then so be it even if it kills it milk it for what its worth.Always reminds me of the soap powder adverts "gets your whites whiter than white" or "new improved" .You mean to tell me white can be more white than white or we all bought an inferior product before.Years ago joe public got up off its back side and went to races now they prefer to sit in the comfy chair watching on a box so thats seen as the number one way to get your advertising over to joe public.Long live the classic racing much better than seeing a 25 bike back log of traffic just to please the media and advertising men.

Sure, as I said I have sympathy with your views. However,I also said it's a done deal and it aint gonna change. You are doing the right thing by taking an interest in classic racing-good on yer! The other thing you miss is that two strokes are heavy on the maintenence. One of my old Grass Track and Speedway mates was a courier useing the good old CX500 Hondas. He had a go on one of my Kawasaki's and bought a GPZ 900. he used it for courier work and did 126,000 miles without touching the donk. It was better on fuel than the CX Honda's too. Due to enviromental issues the world of motor sport will have to change to keep up with these pressures. They are anathma to petrol heads like us but that is what will happen long term. Sorry........

[tonyed]

Eskil Suters' comment was that you can only make really powerfull 4 stroke by knackering the power band (my term, not Eskils) and controlling that with electronics.

With modern 2 strokes that is not the case. With reed valves and exhaust valves the power curve is progressive and controlable without 'sophiscated' electronics.

The simple, cheaper to produce and MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY efficient two stroke (forget any burnt oil, think of the vast amont of raw materials, power consumption to produce this dinosaur of an engine type).

2 strokes are the only way forward for the reciprocating piston engine.

4 strokes will die out and the sooner they do the better.

[rotrax]

Eskil Suters' comment was that you can only make really powerfull 4 stroke by knackering the power band (my term, not Eskils) and controlling that with electronics.

With modern 2 strokes that is not the case. With reed valves and exhaust valves the power curve is progressive and controlable without 'sophiscated' electronics.

The simple, cheaper to produce and MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY efficient two stroke (forget any burnt oil, think of the vast amont of raw materials, power consumption to produce this dinosaur of an engine type).

2 strokes are the only way forward for the reciprocating piston engine.

4 strokes will die out and the sooner they do the better.

Like a fiver on it?

[mba21]

Eskil Suters' comment was that you can only make really powerfull 4 stroke by knackering the power band (my term, not Eskils) and controlling that with electronics.

With modern 2 strokes that is not the case. With reed valves and exhaust valves the power curve is progressive and controlable without 'sophiscated' electronics.

The simple, cheaper to produce and MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY efficient two stroke (forget any burnt oil, think of the vast amont of raw materials, power consumption to produce this dinosaur of an engine type).

2 strokes are the only way forward for the reciprocating piston engine.

4 strokes will die out and the sooner they do the better.

I would love to see it happen but I do't think Honda will let it happen,and they rule ....................

[rd500]

one thing is, if 2 strokes are unreliable/noisy/outdated/unfriendly then why

are the fim allowing them to still race and promoting new championships for them

major motox/enduro teams including ktm/husky switching back to the 2 stroke

yamaha switching most of their aux engines [like outbord motors etc] back to 2 stroke

every dog and their owner desperate to get classic 2 stroke, pushing the prices up for the real enthusiast with the buying and selling tactics on ebay etc and most of these people have the views expressed above that the 4 stroke is king and all the 2 stroke guys should shut up and have done with it, yet they will pay through the nose for a rd250 although they will admit to their superbike mates they detest them???

honda have publicly said they are happy for riders to keep the view that 2 strokes are unreliable and constantly have a smoke screen behind them - it helps to promote their product but i think
anyone who still thinks 2 strokes are unreliable have clearly had nothing to do with them since the mid seventies, sure you have to strip them down every so often and check alls ok - like a race bike thats the nature of the beast,but like any 2 stroke enthusiast will tell you - you will get as much out of the machine as you put in.

but obviously if you dont care about for your bike and let it be part of you then it will have the same attitude and give up.

[Russell Burrows]

My beef with racing stokers was not that they sounded like a bucket of rusty nails being rattled, nor so much that, unlike four stokes back then, they needed endless expensive rebuilding, setting up and generally frigging around with, it’s was more that they routinely chucked umpteen riders into very hard Armco fences and the like, maiming and killing many. I suppose my prejudice continues to this day. Am I being unreasonable?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 30 September 2011 - 10:36.

[rd500]

certainley not russell, everyones got their own opinion and there is no question the older 2 strokes were a knife edge, its good to have a bit of debate about it and there is no question the 4 strokes of days gone buy were stunning, iam happy to admit that as i enjoyed them also.

[tonyed]

Like a fiver on it?

The non-two stroke alternative is the deisel engine not the four stroke petrol engine, which will die out. I will bet 10 million pounds that is less than 6 million years you won't find a four stroke engine on this planet

game for a bet

[Russell Burrows]

Eskil Suters' comment was that you can only make really powerfull 4 stroke by knackering the power band (my term, not Eskils) and controlling that with electronics.

With modern 2 strokes that is not the case. With reed valves and exhaust valves the power curve is progressive and controlable without 'sophiscated' electronics.

The simple, cheaper to produce and MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY efficient two stroke (forget any burnt oil, think of the vast amont of raw materials, power consumption to produce this dinosaur of an engine type).

2 strokes are the only way forward for the reciprocating piston engine.

4 strokes will die out and the sooner they do the better.

Almost until his death, Hilter sat in his bunker convinced victory would eventually be his.

[Rennmax]

The non-two stroke alternative is the deisel engine not the four stroke petrol engine, which will die out. I will bet 10 million pounds that is less than 6 million years you won't find a four stroke engine on this planet

game for a bet

The Diesel engine is a compression-ignition engine and Diesel engines are manufactured in two stroke and four stroke versions

[Rennmax]

Almost until his death, Hilter sat in his bunker convinced victory would eventually be his.

Think he was pissed off because he was supposed to ride a BMW....

[rotrax]

one thing is, if 2 strokes are unreliable/noisy/outdated/unfriendly then why

are the fim allowing them to still race and promoting new championships for them

major motox/enduro teams including ktm/husky switching back to the 2 stroke

yamaha switching most of their aux engines [like outbord motors etc] back to 2 stroke

every dog and their owner desperate to get classic 2 stroke, pushing the prices up for the real enthusiast with the buying and selling tactics on ebay etc and most of these people have the views expressed above that the 4 stroke is king and all the 2 stroke guys should shut up and have done with it, yet they will pay through the nose for a rd250 although they will admit to their superbike mates they detest them???

honda have publicly said they are happy for riders to keep the view that 2 strokes are unreliable and constantly have a smoke screen behind them - it helps to promote their product but i think
anyone who still thinks 2 strokes are unreliable have clearly had nothing to do with them since the mid seventies, sure you have to strip them down every so often and check alls ok - like a race bike thats the nature of the beast,but like any 2 stroke enthusiast will tell you - you will get as much out of the machine as you put in.

but obviously if you dont care about for your bike and let it be part of you then it will have the same attitude and give up.

Hi, I was a Jawa dealer for many years and recon to know a fair bit about two strokes. The Jawa and CZ two stroke street bikes were economical,reliable and cheap to maintain and run. Unfortunatly only riders who wanted these atributes would buy them-most wanted high reving,fast twins or triples with oil injection systems,which undoubtedly gave a more exiting ride but,in comparison were heavy on fuel and oil,death on drive chains and brakes and tyres. I have just found a good home for my last personal Jawa,a 250 twin port single from 1972. I would run all day at 65MPH, I never adjusted the rear chain during the 15 years I owned it (full enclosure) and it would always return 80+ MPG. I think I can say that most two stroke fans on this forum would hate it.Far too "Captain Sensible". There is merit in what you say and so obviously believe but enviromental pressures,real or imagined have effectivly kicked big strokers into touch. Their last bastion of use is big outbard motors from the States-computerised injection and exhaust cats. have given them more time, as has their market of fast fishing skiffs. They are lighter so the skiff goes quicker and turns better. The Pro. bass anglers that use them-they can earn up to $1000.000 for winning a bass tournament-need to get the catch in by a certain time so they need a quick boat. I cant think of any other use-can you?

[rd500]

yes i agree rotrax, the enviromental pressures have dealt the biggest blow.

i think four strokes really took over when motorcycling was turning into poser mode rather than cheap transport or ultimate thrills in which the 2 stroke thrived and no one wanted to strip down a top end on a sunday afternoon anymore.

i understand where your coming from with machinery aswell, having owned an h2 for years i know what you mean about the fuel and i suppose this would be another factor - fuel/oil cost.

having said that though a lot of people thought the 500 yamaha i had would only do 15mpg but its actually closer to 35 which is more than can be said for some of the modern 600/1000 clones.

horses for courses i think, i would love to get a 125 back again because i miss the excitment they offer and i dont mean something like an aprilla, something like a kh125 would be great for me and like you said the cz's etc were outstanding in their own right.

i think whats misse din this country [uk] is whats going on in mainland europe, they all run around on trailees and tourers but this countrys obsessed with superbikes.

[rotrax]

yes i agree rotrax, the enviromental pressures have dealt the biggest blow.

i think four strokes really took over when motorcycling was turning into poser mode rather than cheap transport or ultimate thrills in which the 2 stroke thrived and no one wanted to strip down a top end on a sunday afternoon anymore.

i understand where your coming from with machinery aswell, having owned an h2 for years i know what you mean about the fuel and i suppose this would be another factor - fuel/oil cost.

having said that though a lot of people thought the 500 yamaha i had would only do 15mpg but its actually closer to 35 which is more than can be said for some of the modern 600/1000 clones.

horses for courses i think, i would love to get a 125 back again because i miss the excitment they offer and i dont mean something like an aprilla, something like a kh125 would be great for me and like you said the cz's etc were outstanding in their own right.

i think whats misse din this country [uk] is whats going on in mainland europe, they all run around on trailees and tourers but this countrys obsessed with superbikes.

Back in the early seventies when disc brakes took 50 feet to grip when it was raining all the motorcycle manufacturers were represented at a meeting at Suzuki HQ at the Purley way-the old Lambretta Trojan works. An unfortunate fatality had occured when an "L" plated rider went under the back of a truck in the rain. The result,as far as the Japanese were concerned was simple."What this crazy guy doing riding motorcycle in rain-very dangerous! When raining take bus,use car or train. Motorcycling leisure activity". So it was clear then where the Japs were going with design and product development for street bikes.

[tonyed]

I think many people miss the bigger picture.

Don't look at a simple engine, whether it be a two stroke, fourstroke, diesel (2 or 4 stroke), rotary etc. Or whether it is an 'environmentally friendly' ( a more abused phrase has yet to be invented) electric motor.

Look what is behind them.

Is the 'environmentally friendly' electric car really that 'environmentally friendly' when the electricity needed to power it via its' batteries is produced by a nuclear power station.

Is the fourstroke engine environmentally cleaner than a two stroke engine, when it uses umpteen times as much power to manufacture its' components and umpteen times as much raw materials to produce it.

What it is all about is:

1. Stupid politicians who pass stupid and irrelevant laws because they are ignorant thieves on the take from the biggest industrial pushers.
2. Ignorant environmentalists who are scare mongering about global warming with ‘facts’ based on little hard evidence.
3. The worlds press who, collectively, are not as intelligent as one cabbage.
4. Pub ‘experts’ who’s intellectual capability can only (barely) stagger through a Saturday nights’ TV of ‘Strictly Britain has No X Factor Talent on Ice in the Big Brother House’
5 Honda (bring back Hitler at least despite being a mass murderer, megalomaniac and not at all a nice person who you’d want living next door) was surrounded by brilliant engineers.

The big picture is bigger than an old photo of an old 1960s Ariel Arrow disappearing in a cloud of smoke.

[fil2.8]

That just about sums it up , Tony

[Russell Burrows]

I think many people miss the bigger picture.

Don't look at a simple engine, whether it be a two stroke, fourstroke, diesel (2 or 4 stroke), rotary etc. Or whether it is an 'environmentally friendly' ( a more abused phrase has yet to be invented) electric motor.

Look what is behind them.

Is the 'environmentally friendly' electric car really that 'environmentally friendly' when the electricity needed to power it via its' batteries is produced by a nuclear power station.

Is the fourstroke engine environmentally cleaner than a two stroke engine, when it uses umpteen times as much power to manufacture its' components and umpteen times as much raw materials to produce it.

What it is all about is:

1. Stupid politicians who pass stupid and irrelevant laws because they are ignorant thieves on the take from the biggest industrial pushers.
2. Ignorant environmentalists who are scare mongering about global warming with ‘facts’ based on little hard evidence.
3. The worlds press who, collectively, are not as intelligent as one cabbage.
4. Pub ‘experts’ who’s intellectual capability can only (barely) stagger through a Saturday nights’ TV of ‘Strictly Britain has No X Factor Talent on Ice in the Big Brother House’
5 Honda (bring back Hitler at least despite being a mass murderer, megalomaniac and not at all a nice person who you’d want living next door) was surrounded by brilliant engineers.

The big picture is bigger than an old photo of an old 1960s Ariel Arrow disappearing in a cloud of smoke.

When doing the umpteenth stroker rebuild after just a few races, did you never cast your mind back to earlier times when the Macchi Mettise would run for almost a whole year with barely a spanner being laid on it ?

[rotrax]

When doing the umpteenth stroker rebuild after just a few races, did you never cast your mind back to earlier times when the Macchi Mettise would run for almost a whole year with barely a spanner being laid on it ?

Yes-The race bike I owned the longest-from1969 to2011-was a wartime Triumph dispatch riders 3HW engine in a modified frame by Jack Lilley. It dropped an exhaust valve in at Brands in 1970 so I pulled it in bits and overhauled it. A bloke from my rugby club made up a secondhand big end from the best bits I could find over the winter of 70/71. It was still there after 40 years. I had my last race on it at Curborough- a 900 yard twisty sprint where I finished half a second behind the late Keith Heckles on his Manx running on dope. In the 41 years I had it, it was used every season. It was road raced,drag and sprinted,grass tracked,speedwayed and, with a soft piston used in trials. All with the most outstanding relability-only problem was exhaust valves,fixed by boring out the guide and using a cut down Speedway JAP one. I have had three serious crashes caused by mechanical failures during my 45 years of competition. I dont think anyone will be surprised when I say the biggest was the primary chain breaking and locking the transmission on a Starmaker! The gearbox camplate plunger (which had not been tightened by the owner) fell out of a 350 Gold Star and lubed the rear tyre and then chucked me off at Paddock big time,resulting in a broken arm. The other one was when the front fork bolt sheared off on a Hagon Longtracker and sent me so high when the engine dug in I thought I was never coming down! I got away with that one but I coulnt walk for four days. I recon if we had a straw poll about reliability of two stroke versus four stroke there will only be one result. Two strokes are light,fast,and fragile by comparison.

[tonyed]

When doing the umpteenth stroker rebuild after just a few races, did you never cast your mind back to earlier times when the Macchi Mettise would run for almost a whole year with barely a spanner being laid on it ?

But it was slow compared with a Yamaha of the same engine capacity and although only a (humble) push rod motor cost a fortune to rebuild.

As for barely laying a spanner on it, after every meeting the oil was changed, filter cleaned and checked for swarf, which usually meant the cam followers were to be changed. Tappets checked and adjusted.

In an hour I could do a top end change or check on a Yamaha and have a bike that produced nearly twice the bhp of a four stroke.

Talking to Dave Croxford one day after the umpteenth Yamaha 350 had out dragged his John Player works Norton 750 down the straight he commented that 'if he wasn't getting paid to ride it he wouldn't'.

The TZ was a god send. What was the alternative then, the Aermacchi, an aging AJS or Norton or a converted road bike that couln't hold a light to a 125 two stroke, covered the track in oil and engine debris and sounded like a farting elephant.

If it wasn't for the politics and a bunch of rabid poorly informed Rabbit fanciers and tree huggers the 4 stroke would be confined to what it does well, powering lawn mowers and the 45 mph brigade sat white knuckled at the wheel of their mobile womb whilst the drive in the morning to continue that pace at their place of work (slumber).

Don't know where the fast BUT FRAGILE comes from perhaps you should have move on from the Villiers 2T engine , but the the FAST would not be pertinant.

How many races this year have been stopped or abandoned after one of the sad old Jap engined 4 strokes dumped its' guts all over the track?

Edited by tonyed, 01 October 2011 - 05:58.

[rotrax]

But it was slow compared with a Yamaha of the same engine capacity and although only a (humble) push rod motor cost a fortune to rebuild.

As for barely laying a spanner on it, after every meeting the oil was changed, filter cleaned and checked for swarf, which usually meant the cam followers were to be changed. Tappets checked and adjusted.

In an hour I could do a top end change or check on a Yamaha and have a bike that produced nearly twice the bhp of a four stroke.

Talking to Dave Croxford one day after the umpteenth Yamaha 350 had out dragged his John Player works Norton 750 down the straight he commented that 'if he wasn't getting paid to ride it he wouldn't'.

The TZ was a god send. What was the alternative then, the Aermacchi, an aging AJS or Norton or a converted road bike that couln't hold a light to a 125 two stroke, covered the track in oil and engine debris and sounded like a farting elephant.

If it wasn't for the politics and a bunch of rabid poorly informed Rabbit fanciers and tree huggers the 4 stroke would be confined to what it does well, powering lawn mowers and the 45 mph brigade sat white knuckled at the wheel of their mobile womb whilst the drive in the morning to continue that pace at their place of work (slumber).

Don't know where the fast BUT FRAGILE comes from perhaps you should have move on from the Villiers 2T engine , but the the FAST would not be pertinant.

How many races this year have been stopped or abandoned after one of the sad old Jap engined 4 strokes dumped its' guts all over the track?

Light,fast but fragile comes from my personal experiences of 50 years involvement with motorcycles,45 of them racing and 30 in the trade or industry. Opinions are like arseholes-we all have one! By the way, I raced a Drixton Aermachi-routine prep. between races and no DNF's. over 2 seasons,no mechanical replacements only tyres,plug and oil. I pulled it in bits when I got it,made it good and rode it thereafter. Many long races in Ireland as well!

[Russell Burrows]

Talking to Dave Croxford one day after the umpteenth Yamaha 350 had out dragged his John Player works Norton 750 down the straight he commented that 'if he wasn't getting paid to ride it he wouldn't'.

He didn't much fancy a TZ either (or whatever they were called back then). He bought Rod Gould's in 1970, raced it a couple of times and then got shot of it pronto, citing the astronomical cost of keeping it going.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 01 October 2011 - 11:01.

[tonyed]

He didn't much fancy a TZ either (or whatever they were called back then). He bought Rod Gould's in 1970, raced it a couple of times and then got shot of it pronto, citing the astronomical cost of keeping it going.

Must have been a minority of one then as the 70's and 80's programs were full of them.

A case of 'everyone out of step except' 'Our Dave.

Now what have we got a grid that looks like the queue that you'd see entering Brands Hatch for the RotS, the Gauloises or Mallory Park RoY to watch he TZ250,s, 350,s 750,s - yes a load of old race tuned road bikes.

What a load of old crap.

Real race bikes are banned from open public, road bikes should be banned from race tracks

[Russell Burrows]

Light,fast but fragile comes from my personal experiences of 50 years involvement with motorcycles,45 of them racing and 30 in the trade or industry. Opinions are like arseholes-we all have one! By the way, I raced a Drixton Aermachi-routine prep. between races and no DNF's. over 2 seasons,no mechanical replacements only tyres,plug and oil. I pulled it in bits when I got it,made it good and rode it thereafter. Many long races in Ireland as well!

Yes Rotrax, ultra reliable they were. Do you have a picture of the Drixton and/or any history ?

[rotrax]

Yes Rotrax, ultra reliable they were. Do you have a picture of the Drixton and/or any history ?

Hi Russell, I should have a couple of photo's of the Drixton somewhere. If I do the bike should be clear as I never used a fairing on it. It was one previously owned and ridden by Mal Kirwan, the motorcycists solicitor for accident claims. He won the Tandragee 100 350 race on it one time. It belonged to Pete John who loaned it to me for two years. When I finished with it I handed it over to Russell Benny, the Phase One Endurance team boss. I dont know whether Pete loaned it or Russell bought it. It was reputed to be an ex-works motor,short stroke,eccentric rocker spindles for valve adjustment,all metal dry clutch,no external flywheel,unusual long tapered megga. When I had it it was well oversize,420cc. I seem to remember fontana brakes-but cant be sure. There is a picture of me on the bike in the first Tandragee 100 that had a classic class-79 or 80 perhaps.I was asked to write a small feature for the programme that year,perhaps as I was instrumental in getting most of the classic entry together for them.From little acorns..... If I find anything you may be interested in I'll work out (more like Barbara will) how to post them on here.

[Russell Burrows]

Hi Russell, I should have a couple of photo's of the Drixton somewhere. If I do the bike should be clear as I never used a fairing on it. It was one previously owned and ridden by Mal Kirwan, the motorcycists solicitor for accident claims. He won the Tandragee 100 350 race on it one time. It belonged to Pete John who loaned it to me for two years. When I finished with it I handed it over to Russell Benny, the Phase One Endurance team boss. I dont know whether Pete loaned it or Russell bought it. It was reputed to be an ex-works motor,short stroke,eccentric rocker spindles for valve adjustment,all metal dry clutch,no external flywheel,unusual long tapered megga. When I had it it was well oversize,420cc. I seem to remember fontana brakes-but cant be sure. There is a picture of me on the bike in the first Tandragee 100 that had a classic class-79 or 80 perhaps.I was asked to write a small feature for the programme that year,perhaps as I was instrumental in getting most of the classic entry together for them.From little acorns..... If I find anything you may be interested in I'll work out (more like Barbara will) how to post them on here.

Yes Rotrax, be good to see some pics. I wonder who owned it before Mal ?

[larryd]

Hi Russell, I should have a couple of photo's of the Drixton somewhere. If I do the bike should be clear as I never used a fairing on it. It was one previously owned and ridden by Mal Kirwan, the motorcycists solicitor for accident claims. He won the Tandragee 100 350 race on it one time. It belonged to Pete John who loaned it to me for two years. When I finished with it I handed it over to Russell Benny, the Phase One Endurance team boss. I dont know whether Pete loaned it or Russell bought it. It was reputed to be an ex-works motor,short stroke,eccentric rocker spindles for valve adjustment,all metal dry clutch,no external flywheel,unusual long tapered megga. When I had it it was well oversize,420cc. I seem to remember fontana brakes-but cant be sure. There is a picture of me on the bike in the first Tandragee 100 that had a classic class-79 or 80 perhaps.I was asked to write a small feature for the programme that year,perhaps as I was instrumental in getting most of the classic entry together for them.From little acorns..... If I find anything you may be interested in I'll work out (more like Barbara will) how to post them on here.

Hell fire, Mike, you had me going there!

I remember you on the 402 at Tandragee, but the first Tandragee Classic race was at the 1983 meeting. I've hunted my programme, and you were entered then on a 498 Triumph - result, DNF! - or did you change the entry to the 'Macchi?

You certainly had the 402 there in 1981, and rode it in the Open 500 race. I think that you had trouble, since you only completed 6 laps (out of nine).

Incidentally, my normal ride then was the 344 A/M Metisse which I had been riding in open 350 races - the North Armagh Club were, I think, the first to run a Classic Road Race, in '83, although I'm open to correction on that.

At any rate, and going back to 1983, a very good friend who had a huge collection of older racers suggested that he'd like to see one of them out in this race, and offered me the choice of either his Ron Peck 250 4-cylinder or what was alleged to be a rather special 250 Aermacchi.

I thought it better to take what I was familiar with, and opted for the 'Macchi.

I spent a week of nights checking everything (we didn't know when it had last been run) and first surprise was to find an offset 40mm dell'Orto. Seemed a bit much, when my 350 ran on a 35 - however, we presssed on. Bore and stroke was 74mm (same as my 350!!) x 58mm -- 249cc.

No marking on camshaft, and everything drilled to buggery for lightness.

Baffled, I rang Dick Linton "What have I got here?" Answer was a late works ultra shortstroke special which had probably left the factory by the back door.

"Revs to 11,000, and there's nothing at all below 7,600" he said. "You sure?" said I. "Yep, but it'll vibrate a bit". was the answer.

Did it ever - but it flew - eventually. Went testing at Kirkistown on Wednesday before the Saturday race day, and while there was indeed bugger all below 7,500, it stopped dead at 8,500 and banged my head off the screen. Nothing I did improved it, so I took it home and put on the 35mm from my 350 - that taught it a lesson.

I led the 250s on lap one, (yes, it revved to eleven - a pushrod single ) then fell in with thieves and vagabonds - Nev Watts on a 182 CR93, Rob Peabody on a 249 Bulto with the biggest disc brake that I at that time had ever seen (pre CRMC days, this was!) and a local ace (good friend of mine) on a 196 Bulto. It was a hell of a scrap, and I held on to 3rd and was re-catching Nev on lap 7 (of 9) when the front tyre went flat going out onto the main road straight - scared the c*ap out of me (and the flagman who I nearly hit).

Rob won the 250s, my mate was 2nd and Nev was 3rd, and it was bloody good fun!

As to the vibration, my hands felt 3 times their normal size, and my feet kept walking sideways off the rests, but it was, in all, an experience I've never forgotten.

[rotrax]

Hi Larryd, At least your research is better than my memory! The old brain cells must be going fast. The reason I only did six laps is that I tried to start it in second and it had a 60MPH bottom gear. I was unable to run fast enough to get it to catch and light up. I found a neutral between second and third and got suckered into believing it was in bottom. What a wally! The upshot was the marshalls moved me out of the way untill the whole field had gone by and let me start behind the last rider on the circuit who was starting his second lap. The winner-over to you-went round pretty quick and the flag was out for the end of my race after the six laps. The Drixton had a 42mm carb-like a drainhole as Adrian Weston used to say. I cant remember the stroke but it had a Cosworth 85mm piston and the cases and liner had been bored to within a thou of their lives. The cylinder was almost a collection of alloy washers on the iron liner and the holding down stud inserts in the cases were bored out so the roots of the threads could almost be seen. As it was someone elses I set it up with low compression and modest advance. Fred Pidcock,who raced a 'machi came and took a look and offered advice as did John Hammond. The Triumph I used in the Classic race was a tele-fork srung hub 5T with the usual go-faster bits in it. Unfortunatly the bottom fell out of the fuel tank which curtailed proceedings. I built the bike for the late Cyril Edgeworth-he was the traffic inspector who had responsibility for checking and subsequently issuing the road closing order for the races. He got a local guy called Teddy to ride it to fair success,after the tank was fixed! Happy days. You may be correct with 402cc but I'm pretty sure Pete John told me it was a 420. What does an ultra short stroke with 85 bore come out at? By the way,vibration on this one was not too bad-but then I rode Triumphs!

Edited by rotrax, 16 October 2011 - 21:55.

[rotrax]

I've looked out about a thousand bike pics and not a one of the 'Machi! I did find one of the Triumph so I will put it on under a different thread title with some other interesting-well I think they are-shots from my time racing. I have a small blackand white of the ex Havel Jawa and some others I think are worth a look. Watch this space!

[picblanc]

Not from 'the day' taken @ Lydden in 2008, thought you might enjoy seeing them.



Photos Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

[rotrax]

Yes Rotrax, ultra reliable they were. Do you have a picture of the Drixton and/or any history ?

Hi, i've just spent almost two hours looking through shoeboxes of photo's! I've found lots that might interest the forum but as most are of me I dont want to appear egotistic. I have found one of the Drixton,at Silverstone,in the paddock. I'll see if Barbara and I can work out how to post then tonight. As I said before,watch this space!

[Russell Burrows]

Not from 'the day' taken @ Lydden in 2008, thought you might enjoy seeing them.



Photos Copyrighted to Graham Etheridge.

So much lower than the Mettise version. I think it was Drixyl who first mooted the idea to the Rickmans of wrapping this sort of design around a Macchi motor, and perhaps built his after seeing what he considered as their too high and heavy attempt?
Nice Picture, Graham.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 17 October 2011 - 17:24.