25 replies to this topic

[duby]

hi

the most famos rally-raid is the DAKAR and it startted in 1979, but what was the first off-road rally ?

i guess it was before that..




thanks
duby

[Rob G]

I'd say probably the Peking to Paris race, which occurred in 1907. This was followed by the New York to Paris race in 1908.

[Vitesse2]

In quite a few European languages, the words "rally" and "raid" seem to be interchangable. I'm sure anjakub or one of our other Polish members will correct me here if I'm wrong, but I think the official name of the Polish Rally is 'Rajd Polski'?

The origins of the Dakar can be traced back to events run in French West Africa as early as 1930.

[D-Type]

hi

the most famos rally-raid is the DAKAR and it startted in 1979, but what was the first off-road rally ?

i guess it was before that..




thanks
duby

Some confusion here. The Dakar is not really an off-road event. It takes place on roads, but these are unsurfaced and in the case of the desert crossings they can be more like trails with several parallel tracks.

But to come back to your question:

In the thirties there were the Citroen Trans-Sahara Desert and Trans-Gobi Desert Raids. But these were not competitive events, they were more in the nature of expeditions.

I think you are really asking about long distance races/rallies:

In Africa in the thirties there were Nairobi to Cape Town races or rallies (I'm not sure which)
In Africa in the fifties there was at least one Cairo to Cape Town race/rally
The first Safari rally was in 1953
In the fifties there was the well established "Marathon de la Route" a rally from Liege - Rome Liege which later became Liege - Sofia - Liege and finally something like 48 hours round the Nurburgring
In South America there were countless city to city races - that's where Fangio learned his trade.
Then there was the 1968 London - Sydney marathon (formule libre)
1970 London - Mexico World Cup Rally (again I think formule libre)
1974 World Cup Wally London-Munich, via Kano (Nigeria)
There have been other trans-Sahara rallies - the name "Rally of the Pyramids" comes to mind but I'm not sure of the title.

True off-road events are few and far between. The only one that comes to mind is the Baja Race in Baja California (Mexico)

One big difference to bear in mind is what type of car is eligible. The Dakar etc are/were effectively Formule Libre, admittedly with classes, while the Safari and other true rallies etc are/were for FIA homologated cars of various types

Edited by D-Type, 04 May 2011 - 11:26.

[Sharman]

In quite a few European languages, the words "rally" and "raid" seem to be interchangable. I'm sure anjakub or one of our other Polish members will correct me here if I'm wrong, but I think the official name of the Polish Rally is 'Rajd Polski'?

The origins of the Dakar can be traced back to events run in French West Africa as early as 1930.

I seem to recall Rally Raids featuring large among VSCC events, more particularly in the Frazer Nash section.

[Fred Gallagher]

Some confusion here. The Dakar is not really an off-road event. It takes place on roads, but these are unsurfaced and in the case of the desert crossings they can be more like trails with several parallel tracks.

Sorry D-Type but that's not the case. Great sections of the Dakar, even in its present form in South America, are totally off-piste. It is quite common to get an instruction such as 39.37 kms at heading 271 degrees and you just have to find your way.

GPS systems are now highly controlled and are effectively for safety only so all navigation is by road book, map and electronic compass.

The Safari, by contrast, was always on tracks.

Fred

[Fred Gallagher]

....and here's an example of a road book section that is all off-piste. The dotted line signifies there is no track. HP means "Hors Piste" - off piste.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is from the 2003 Dakar.

Fred

Edited by Fred Gallagher, 04 May 2011 - 12:53.

[D-Type]

Sorry D-Type but that's not the case. Great sections of the Dakar, even in its present form in South America, are totally off-piste. It is quite common to get an instruction such as 39.37 kms at heading 271 degrees and you just have to find your way.

GPS systems are now highly controlled and are effectively for safety only so all navigation is by road book, map and electronic compass.

The Safari, by contrast, was always on tracks.

Fred

Well, that's this month's signature justification out of the way!

In all seriousness, Does this mean the Dakar is unique in being an off-road rally*. The Baja is a race and all the other marathons, long distance rallies etc were on roads or tracks.

* This assumes the Dakar is a rally, ie competitors have to achieve a set bogey time and incur penalties if they don't, rather than cover the course as fast as possible. If the times are set impossibly fast, then it amounts top the same thing.

[Fred Gallagher]

Well, that's this month's signature justification out of the way!

In all seriousness, Does this mean the Dakar is unique in being an off-road rally*. The Baja is a race and all the other marathons, long distance rallies etc were on roads or tracks.

* This assumes the Dakar is a rally, ie competitors have to achieve a set bogey time and incur penalties if they don't, rather than cover the course as fast as possible. If the times are set impossibly fast, then it amounts top the same thing.

It's a good point. These days in the Dakar (and all other Cross Country Rallies as they are officially known) and the WRC there are no stage "bogeys" so no one ever "cleans" a stage.

I can believe the first Dakar was the first real "off-road" event. Events have crossed the Sahara but I believe they were always trying to follow some kind of track, even if it was often obscured.

Fred

[duby]

thnx all

i am really looking for the off-road events, not rallies or races, just off-roads as the Dakar.
i know that Theiry Sabin, the man who first made the dakar was competing in such a rally in africa with a motorbike and when he got lost he thought about making the dakar.

so,i am into what was the first off-road event ...?

duby

[mscheeres]

I don't think there were many roads at all in the 1907 Peking to Paris...

[David McKinney]

Events such as the 'Cactus Derby' in the US before WW1 were probably similar to the modern-day Paris-Dakar

[David Birchall]

I seem to recall Rally Raids featuring large among VSCC events, more particularly in the Frazer Nash section.

And the latest is underway as we speak. They plan on thrashing around Sicily for about ten days in addition to the "normal" thrash there and back!! I have a lucky friend who is on the Raid.

[automotoria]

In 1907 prince Borghese has passed Paris - Pekin. It passed through the Ural mountains, by 1914 the Russian mechanic has made the car similar on Itala. This car was found by us in 2005 in a shed.

Edited by automotoria, 04 May 2011 - 18:04.

[GrzegorzChyla]

but I think the official name of the Polish Rally is 'Rajd Polski'?

Yes, it is Rajd.
Moreover - it was written Raid until late 1950s (then there was a polish spelling reform).

IIRC word 'Raid' returned somehow artificially to differentiate rallies of type 'dakar' from 'road'. Of course - road here may vary from tarmac trough cobbles to gravel, ice and snow.

The whole matter becomes more complex when you realize that normal road standards changed with time.
I think rallies like Safari or Acropolis or Bandama from 1960s or 1970s were much more rough than some of off-road or baja events from 2010.

I would say off-road events as we understand it now started with Paris-Dakar and become more and more popular during the 1980s.

One of off-road events were polish Jelcz Rally (first in 1986) and I am working of a web page about its history:
http://www.jelczrally.prv.pl

Grzegorz Chyła

[Pullman99]

[quote name='automotoria' date='May 4 2011, 19:02' post='4998906']In 1907 prince Borghese has passed Paris - Pekin. It passed through the Ural mountains, by 1914 the Russian mechanic has made the car similar on Itala. This car was found by us in 2005 in a shed.
quote]

This sounds like a really interesting story. Do you have more details on the car (it looks much earlier than the 1907 Itala) and your discovery of it in 2005?

[cheapracer]

I think the Redex and Ampol trials of the 50's in Australia deserve a mention here, Ray Bell can elaborate a bit more I'm sure ;) ...

http://www.uniquecar...edex_trials.htm

[automotoria]

Ian Robinson

The car in Ekaterinburg, the engine pig-iron, a frame and wheels wooden. The car in 1914 mechanic Petunin is made. The detailed information and a photo I can send the message.

[arttidesco]

In the fifties there was the well established "Marathon de la Route" a rally from Liege - Rome Liege which later became Liege - Sofia - Liege and finally something like 48 hours round the Nurburgring

Started from 1965 - 1971 with 84 hour format and then in the final year 1972 went completely overboard with a 96 hour format IIRC.

[Vitesse2]

Started from 1965 - 1971 with 84 hour format and then in the final year 1972 went completely overboard with a 96 hour format IIRC.

Liege-Rome-Liege dates back well before WW2 ...

[arttidesco]

Liege-Rome-Liege dates back well before WW2 ...

Stand corrected on the origins of the Marathon de la Route pre Nurburgring incarnation Richard

[gm914]

Don't forget the Baja 1000. Started in 1967.
Although most of it is trails I believe.

[David McKinney]

Don't forget the Baja 1000. Started in 1967.
Although most of it is trails I believe.

As mentioned in Post 4

[AbingdonST]

Started from 1965 - 1971 with 84 hour format and then in the final year 1972 went completely overboard with a 96 hour format IIRC.

Don't know about all the years between 1965 -71 but in 1970 the information I have always quoted say that the Marathon de la Route was 86 hours in duration?

Edited by AbingdonST, 09 May 2011 - 22:54.

[Vitesse2]

Don't know about all the years between 1965 -71 but in 1970 the information I have always quoted say that the Marathon de la Route was 86 hours in duration?

Marathon de la Route

[AbingdonST]

Marathon de la Route

I sense I am being educated about something, but what?