73 replies to this topic

[steveninthematrix]

I mean, I am just more and more amazed at how good he is...

2nd in the WRC championships in 2003
1st in 2004,05,06,07,08,09 and 2010, and currently leading in 2011

7 championships in a row

Michael managed 5 championships in a row F1
Jimmie Johnson managed 5 championships in a row in Nascar (and is currently 2nd in 2011 with the chase to come, #6? )
Rossi managed 5 in a row in 500cc/motogp

so, in their respective disciplines, Leob is ahead and just keeps going, and after a shaky start to 2011, is leading again....

simply awesome!

Edited by steveninthematrix, 13 May 2011 - 19:52.

[Dunder]

Extraordinaire.

[Andy865]

Alright i suppose. I'd kick his arse in my 1.25 fiesta though.

And he is french. Unfortunate.

[Nobody]

Best car driver on the planet

[ClubmanGT]

The sad thing about Loeb is that his record will be tarnished by the horrid state World Rallying is in.

[primer]

He's okay, definitely above average. But his career is greatly flattered by his strong car + team, and all the weak drivers and teams he has had to drive against in rallying.

[SPBHM]

He's okay, definitely above average. But his career is greatly flattered by his strong car + team, and all the weak drivers and teams he has had to drive against in rallying.

where are the other "okay" rally drivers then?

seriously, someone like Sordo is "OK", guys like Latvala are above OK, Loeb is just one of the best ever, he is the type of guy that you could drop in any car or era and he would perform greatly in my opinion,

[Unbiased]

To me personally someone is a great champion of he wins against other amazing drivers and ends up with the most points, no matter the circumstances.

Loeb hardly had competitors in most of those championships. Just like Schumacher didn't during some of his. They both still are 2 of the greatest drivers of all time.

But I am more impressed with Vettel duking it out with Hamilton and Alonso throughout the entire season, even though having more technical failures than those 2 combined had, and beating them fair and square at the last race.

Yes the car matters, as it does to every champion in any league of motorsport. You need the best car...and then you have to deliver.

[velgajski1]

To me personally someone is a great champion of he wins against other amazing drivers and ends up with the most points, no matter the circumstances.

Loeb hardly had competitors in most of those championships. Just like Schumacher didn't during some of his. They both still are 2 of the greatest drivers of all time.

But I am more impressed with Vettel duking it out with Hamilton and Alonso throughout the entire season, even though having more technical failures than those 2 combined had, and beating them fair and square at the last race.

Yes the car matters, as it does to every champion in any league of motorsport. You need the best car...and then you have to deliver.

And your nick is Unbiased?

Vettel is nowhere near Loeb as a legend of racing. 'Weak' competition just means you're way better than everyone rest.

[hotstickyslick]

From my point of view he is one of the best ever. It's one thing to have amazing speed in rallying, but to be just as consistent is another thing. Loeb is both of those put together into, at times, what seems like an unstoppable package. The same arguments used to discredit other top sportsmen in other motorsporting disciplines certainly can't be applied to Monsieur Loeb, especially when you look at the competition he has faced within his own team when with guys like Sainz, McRae and now Ogier. He has nothing to prove.

Edited by hotstickyslick, 13 May 2011 - 21:00.

[ArnageWRC]

I mean, I am just more and more amazed at how good he is...

2nd in the WRC championships in 2003
1st in 2004,05,06,07,08,09 and 2010, and currently leading in 2011

7 championships in a row

Michael managed 5 championships in a row F1
Jimmie Johnson managed 5 championships in a row in Nascar (and is currently 2nd in 2011 with the chase to come, #6? )
Rossi managed 5 in a row in 500cc/motogp

so, in their respective disciplines, Leob is ahead and just keeps going, and after a shaky start to 2011, is leading again....

simply awesome!

And he actually should have won the Title in 2003 - a bad tyre choice by Citroen in Catalunya cost him a win on the last stage - and then driving for the Manufacturers Title at GB meant he couldn't challenge Solberg for the win.
It's a good question - he's very, very good, probably the best of all time. However, he has dominated during the WRC's weakest era - and in the same team for all that time, with the 9-5 era of modern Rallying - were the endurance element has largely been lost.
I don't think people rate him as highly as Schumacher/Rossi because the WRC is looked down on. I would like to see him do what they have both done - go to another team, mould it and make it a winner. Funnily enough, a new Manufacturer has/will arrived - and they have mega money to spend, as well as all the resources. VW - please make it happen.

[primer]

'Weak' competition just means you're way better than everyone rest.

It's not all his doing, that's the point. Loeb has had the best team, this matters a lot in rallying. He has had the best car. He is effectively in same situation as Schumacher was at Ferrari: under such favorable circumstances it is easy for almost any decent driver to accumulate the victories and become a statistical 'great'. Yet when faced with competition on equal terms how is Schumacher doing?

Then there's the pressure of racing. This is not Loeb's fault -Citroen have played a bigger part- but Loeb hasn't had to campaign against a threat consistently over multiple seasons. Hakkinen had a mental breakdown in less than two full years of battling Ferrari. Rossi has had to change teams and still hasn't recovered from the surgery Lorenzo performed on him. Loeb has just had to outdrive the 'Rubens' he has been paired with at Citroen, it is quiet clear Citroen want to win with him and he has not given them any reason to change their minds.

Loeb might be one of the best drivers ever in rallying, but there's no evidence to back this opinion. He hasn't been put through the cauldron and come out the other side unscathed.

[motorhead]

He is everything mentioned above but still I would like to see him in a another team. He has won everything with Citroen, it would be great to see him in another car...

[hotstickyslick]

It's not all his doing, that's the point. Loeb has had the best team, this matters a lot in rallying. He has had the best car. He is effectively in same situation as Schumacher was at Ferrari: under such favorable circumstances it is easy for almost any decent driver to accumulate the victories and become a statistical 'great'. Yet when faced with competition on equal terms how is Schumacher doing?

Then there's the pressure of racing. This is not Loeb's fault -Citroen have played a bigger part- but Loeb hasn't had to campaign against a threat consistently over multiple seasons. Hakkinen had a mental breakdown in less than two full years of battling Ferrari. Rossi has had to change teams and still hasn't recovered from the surgery Lorenzo performed on him. Loeb has just had to outdrive the 'Rubens' he has been paired with at Citroen, it is quiet clear Citroen want to win with him and he has not given them any reason to change their minds.

Loeb might be one of the best drivers ever in rallying, but there's no evidence to back this opinion. He hasn't been put through the cauldron and come out the other side unscathed.

So what is your definition of a 'cauldron' in rallying?

[BRG]

From my point of view he is one of the best ever. It's one thing to have amazing speed in rallying, but to be just as consistent is another thing. Loeb is both of those put together into, at times, what seems like an unstoppable package. And it's not like he's had weak competition either when you look guys like Sainz, McRae, Gronholm and now Ogier. He has nothing to prove.

Agreed. I have followed & competed in rallying fro many years, and I have never seen anyone with Loeb's ability and talent. He has been able to outpace every competitor he has ever had, whilst recording one of the lowest accident rates of any top rally driver. He also seems to have astonishing mechanical sympathy, judging from his low retirement rate, even compared to his own team mates.

Whether he would have been able to beat the greats of the 1960s, 70s or 80s in the cars of those days, we will never know, nor whether they could have beaten him in a modern WRC, but my feeling is that he would have been a star in any era.

[racerbaz]

He's okay, definitely above average. But his career is greatly flattered by his strong car + team, and all the weak drivers and teams he has had to drive against in rallying.

I agree he's OK - and definitely above average - enough to see off Tommi Makinen,Didier Auriol,Carlos Sainz, Colin McRae, Richard Burns, Marcus Gronholm, Solberg, Hirvinen, and the rest. Plus all those assorted FI types at the Race of Champions including Schuey ! 8th fastest in an F1 test session at Barcelona in a Red Bull and second place in a Pescarolo at Le Mans. Could be one of the best ever - a modest man with no hype or ego - A real top gentleman !

[apoka]

Vettel is nowhere near Loeb as a legend of racing. 'Weak' competition just means you're way better than everyone rest.

So you agree that Vettel is way better than the rest this year?

[velgajski1]

Agreed. I have followed & competed in rallying fro many years, and I have never seen anyone with Loeb's ability and talent. He has been able to outpace every competitor he has ever had, whilst recording one of the lowest accident rates of any top rally driver. He also seems to have astonishing mechanical sympathy, judging from his low retirement rate, even compared to his own team mates.

Whether he would have been able to beat the greats of the 1960s, 70s or 80s in the cars of those days, we will never know, nor whether they could have beaten him in a modern WRC, but my feeling is that he would have been a star in any era.

[primer]

I agree he's OK - and definitely above average - enough to see off Tommi Makinen,Didier Auriol,Carlos Sainz, Colin McRae, Richard Burns, Marcus Gronholm, Solberg, Hirvinen, and the rest.

Beating other drivers in a 'HRT' or a 'Williams' while you drive a Mclaren or a RBR, soooooo impressive. Some of these manufacturer teams have had pathetic support from factory and this shows in their results. Story of rallying in the past decade, really. Many drivers could have challenged Loeb and it would have been a great fight to watch, but no other manufacturer has been as well financed and established as Citroen in rallying. It's not all down to Loeb's driving, which is certainly competent.

Plus all those assorted FI types at the Race of Champions including Schuey !

Can't believe anyone thinks that little stadium stunt is worth anything but a laugh.

8th fastest in an F1 test session at Barcelona in a Red Bull and second place in a Pescarolo at Le Mans.

Wow fast in a private test! Must be teh greatest!!

Could be one of the best ever - a modest man with no hype or ego - A real top gentleman !

He might be a decent bloke but I was challenging the hype about his racing 'greatness', not passing any judgement on Loeb as a person or his character. I suspect he is humble becuase he realizes just how much circumstances have played in his favor to let him accumulate the statistical greatness. This humility, unfortunately, is not present in his cheerleaders.

Edited by primer, 13 May 2011 - 21:38.

[iotar]

Beating other drivers in a 'HRT' or a 'Williams' while you drive a Mclaren or a RBR, soooooo impressive. Some of these manufacturer teams have had pathetic support from factory and this shows in their results. Story of rallying in the past decade, really. Many drivers could have challenged Loeb and it would have been a great fight to watch, but no other manufacturer has been as well financed and established as Citroen in rallying. It's not all down to Loeb's driving, which is certainly competent.


Can't believe anyone thinks that little stadium stunt is worth anything but a laugh.


Wow fast in a private test! Must be teh greatest!!


He might be a decent bloke but I was challenging the hype about his racing 'greatness', not passing any judgement on Loeb as a person or his character. I suspect he is humble becuase he realizes just how much circumstances have played in his favor to let him accumulate the statistical greatness. This humility, unfortunately, is not present in his cheerleaders.

You are embarrassing yourself. Do continue.

[sosidge]

It's obvious from watching him that Loeb is a special talent. So smooth and so consistent, unlike many of the other "stars" of rallying, yet so fast at the same time.

And has the Citroen really been the best car all of that time? The Ford has taken the manufacturers title a few times, and Loeb's teammates don't seem to have the same advantage over the field.

[skinnyman]

Loeb might be one of the best drivers ever in rallying, but there's no evidence to back this opinion. He hasn't been put through the cauldron and come out the other side unscathed.

Beating Sainz and late McRae in the same car ? And in his first full season ?

[olliek88]

It's obvious from watching him that Loeb is a special talent. So smooth and so consistent, unlike many of the other "stars" of rallying, yet so fast at the same time.

And has the Citroen really been the best car all of that time? The Ford has taken the manufacturers title a few times, and Loeb's teammates don't seem to have the same advantage over the field.

Its a good point, same could be said for seb this year in F1, the car looks dominant but when you compare him and his teammate it is him that is making it look that way. Loeb seems to be like a robot, rarely makes errors but is super quick, most talented? maybe hard to tell but the best overall? probably, Mcrae was uber talented but too often made mistakes that hurt him, loeb doesn't.

[Hairpin]

Beating other drivers in a 'HRT' or a 'Williams' while you drive a Mclaren or a RBR, soooooo impressive. Some of these manufacturer teams have had pathetic support from factory and this shows in their results. Story of rallying in the past decade, really. Many drivers could have challenged Loeb and it would have been a great fight to watch, but no other manufacturer has been as well financed and established as Citroen in rallying. It's not all down to Loeb's driving, which is certainly competent.


Can't believe anyone thinks that little stadium stunt is worth anything but a laugh.


Wow fast in a private test! Must be teh greatest!!


He might be a decent bloke but I was challenging the hype about his racing 'greatness', not passing any judgement on Loeb as a person or his character. I suspect he is humble becuase he realizes just how much circumstances have played in his favor to let him accumulate the statistical greatness. This humility, unfortunately, is not present in his cheerleaders.

Seriously, what is your problem? Does not seem to matter what you discuss, your posts are always full of bitterness. In the case of Loeb, I am quite confident that you know close to zero about rallying. Can you tell me which era of WRC that was more competitive than this one? Sure, there has not been many teams, but on the other hand - all championship contenders have had pretty equal machinery compared to how the situation was in what many consider "the golden era".

Loeb is an amazing driver. The best ever rally driver.

[ClubmanGT]

I agree he's OK - and definitely above average - enough to see off Tommi Makinen,Didier Auriol,Carlos Sainz, Colin McRae, Richard Burns, Marcus Gronholm, Solberg, Hirvinen, and the rest. Plus all those assorted FI types at the Race of Champions including Schuey ! 8th fastest in an F1 test session at Barcelona in a Red Bull and second place in a Pescarolo at Le Mans. Could be one of the best ever - a modest man with no hype or ego - A real top gentleman !

By this logic, Jesus Puras is better than Loeb.

[maximilian]

Lemme ask you all this: if Loeb isn't the best ever... who is?

[Mauseri]

He is a rally champion. One of many. Hard to say who is better than who. Obviously in the recent years rallying has suffered from lack of talent. In the past there used to be several drivers capable of winning. Now there are only a few. In the last decade many careers of strong drivers finished, and not many started. Lack of seats prevents lack of challengers as well.

[CSquared]

Some clips from Autosport.com's reports on New Zealand Rally last year (I have them handy because I mailed them to several people at the time):
"Loeb clipped a bridge and damaged his Citroen's door on SS4 yesterday. He fell to eighth place, 1m40s off the lead.

[By the end of the next day] he had trimmed Ogier's lead to just 5 seconds."

"Ford team director Malcolm Wilson has labelled Sebastien Loeb's second-day assault on Rally New Zealand as the best performance he has ever seen in the World Rally Championship.

"He took eight tenths of a second per kilometre out of Sebastien Ogier," said Wilson. "That's like having an extra 80 horsepower or something - that's the difference Sebastien Loeb can make as a driver. It's just incredible. He's a very special driver.

"I have seen some great drives in my time, but I've never seen anything like this. It's been a privilege to stand and watch what he has done, it will go down in history."

[tyker]

Beating Sainz and late McRae in the same car ? And in his first full season ?

Yep and finished 2nd in the WRC his worse finishing position to date, he might have even had won it if not Citroen asked him to make sure of the constructors title and not challenge Solberg at the final round, not bad for a slightly above average driver

[flyer121]

He is consistent, fast and smooth but can he overtake?

[senna da silva]

It's Sebastien Loeb! Not Sebastian. Jesus, people just don't give a **** on the internet anymore.

[ArtShelley]

Like all truly great drivers, Loeb certainly makes his competition look weak.

[Kelateboy]

I wonder why Loeb could not get a seat on an F1 team.

[abc02]

I wonder why Loeb could not get a seat on an F1 team.

Why would he want to? F1 isn't the be-all and end-all of motor racing, you know.

[Kelateboy]

Why would he want to? F1 isn't the be-all and end-all of motor racing, you know.

May be not to him. But to 99% of racing fans, F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports racing.

[abc02]

99 percent? I think its probably more like 75 percent. Anyway I'm sure he could have been a great F1 driver if he wanted to, but he chose rallying instead and became the world's best at it.

[Kelateboy]

99 percent? I think its probably more like 75 percent. Anyway I'm sure he could have been a great F1 driver if he wanted to, but he chose rallying instead and became the world's best at it.

99% vs 75%? Let's call them "the majority of racing fans".....

[H2H]

I have followed the WRC for quite some time and he is great without a shade of doubt.

[Muppetmad]

The fact is, he beat Sainz and McRae in the same car. Granted, the car didn't suit McRae and he had a variety of technical failures, but that's still an impressive feat. I held McRae in a very high regard - therefore, I do so also for Loeb.

[arknor]

So you agree that Vettel is way better than the rest this year?

is mark webber can almost win a race we know its all the car

[flyer121]

Why would he want to? F1 isn't the be-all and end-all of motor racing, you know.

But he wanted to .... Couldnt get the super licence

[artista]

But he wanted to .... Couldnt get the super licence

But if I recall it correctly, the plan was to do one single race in a Toro Rosso (am I right?) and not to change series. Loeb enjoys circuit racing and does it when he has the chance and it doesn't clash with his rallying activities.
Rally drivers driving any fast vehicle they can put their hands on during their free time is quite normal.

[Dolph]

I mean, I am just more and more amazed at how good he is...

2nd in the WRC championships in 2003
1st in 2004,05,06,07,08,09 and 2010, and currently leading in 2011

7 championships in a row

Michael managed 5 championships in a row F1
Jimmie Johnson managed 5 championships in a row in Nascar (and is currently 2nd in 2011 with the chase to come, #6? )
Rossi managed 5 in a row in 500cc/motogp

so, in their respective disciplines, Leob is ahead and just keeps going, and after a shaky start to 2011, is leading again....

simply awesome!

Yeah, but what is the real competition among WRC drivers? How many competitive cars are there capable of winning? 4-5!?

[hotstickyslick]

is mark webber can almost win a race we know its all the car

Or if there is a 1-2, as we saw at Turkey....


Anyhow, will Loeb retire this year?

[BRG]

Yeah, but what is the real competition among WRC drivers? How many competitive cars are there capable of winning? 4-5!?

Yes, a bit like F1. Is anyone going to win this year except in a Red Bull, McLaren or Ferrari? I doubt it.

[noikeee]

Loeb's problem is that he comes off as a boring guy, his driving style is boring, and he landed in the beginning of a boring era for the sport and made it even more boring with his domination.

If it wasn't for that he'd probably be unanimously recognised as the greatest rally driver ever.

[Kelateboy]

Loeb's problem is that he comes off as a boring guy, his driving style is boring, and he landed in the beginning of a boring era for the sport and made it even more boring with his domination.

How do you differentiate a boring driving style to an exciting one?

I certainly could not tell....

[Muppetmad]

How do you differentiate a boring driving style to an exciting one?

I certainly could not tell....

I personally wouldn't call Loeb's driving style boring, but I would say it's precise; McRae, for example, was well known for his flamboyant driving style.

[DanardiF1]

To me, McRae is probably the most naturally talented Rally Driver ever, but Loeb is the best Rally 'executor' and winner... Where McRae would battle and scrape his car through rallies, with spectacular results, Loeb is fast without the extra risk involved.

[ed24f1]

But if I recall it correctly, the plan was to do one single race in a Toro Rosso (am I right?) and not to change series. Loeb enjoys circuit racing and does it when he has the chance and it doesn't clash with his rallying activities.
Rally drivers driving any fast vehicle they can put their hands on during their free time is quite normal.

Yes, I think Abu Dhabi 2009 was going to be the race he would do.