81 replies to this topic

[H2H]

Schumi is often described as the statistically greatest F1 driver of all times. So I took that idea and try to apply it relative to age, to gauge just how much one driver achieved in relation to his youth to others. To do so I take WDC, wins, podiums, points and positions and rank the drivers in that order. Pole positions and fasterst laps can not easily taken into account so I leave them for now out. I use the point system in use at the time of the first scoring on that list. (10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1)

A driver increasing his time as the 'The statistically greatest driver/qualifier relative to age' is underlined to facilitate updates, the leader in this regard is bolted.

Methodology explained:

The ranking system is pretty much similar to the medal tables of the Olympic games. As with gold WDC is considered the most important title and a driver with one WDC and zero wins would be in front of a driver with 0 WDC and 15 wins. While this might seem unfair, as WDC and wins go usually togheter, especially for very successful drivers this is not a big issue although it still has an impact, as seen with Schumi and Senna. Schumi had long surpassed Senna in 'aged' victories before he could take his third WDC.

The 19-21 age group fluctuates of course generally a bit more and created a big of a problem point wise due to different point systems. Perhaps one could just start with podiums and have not the quite complicated troubles with the different point system as we have seen with Vettel, Button and Ammon. Officially Vettel is the youngest point scorer, but Button had a better position later on and Ammon would have scored also a point if Vettel's pointsystem would have been already in use.



Needless to say that this list doesn't mean that the driver with those achievements is the best -as the endless Schumi-Senna comparisions show:

a) Pre-Japan GP 2011, will try to make a list without Vettel and Schumi, as they are shadowing in this list a lot of other great achievements.

The statistically greatest F1 drivers relative to age:

19 years, 346 days - Chris Amon - 2 points (7th) [1963 French Grand Prix]
20 years, 67 days - Jenson Button - 3 points (6th) [2000 Brazilian Grand Prix]
21 years, 73 days - Sebastian Vettel - 1 GP win [2008 Italian Grand Prix]
24 years - Sevastian Vettel - 1 WDC, 19 GP wins [2011 Singapore Grand Prix] ( will increase till the next race)
25 years, ~90 days - Fernando Alonso - 2. WDC (15 GP wins) [2006 Japanese Grand Prix]
27 years ~ 270 days - Michael Schumacher - 2 WDC, 21. GP win [1996 Belgian Grand Prix]
31 years, ~180 days - Ayrton Senna- 3. WDC ( 34 GP wins) [1991 Japanese Grand Prix]
31 years, ~310 days - Michael Schumacher - 3. WDC, 43. GP win [2000 Japanese Grand Prix]
42 years - Michael Schumacher 7 WDC, 91 GP wins [2011 Singapore Grand Prix] ( will increase until the next race)


Time spent as the statistically greatest F1 driver*:

1. Michael Schumacher 14 year + ( will increase until the next race)
2. Sebastian Vettel 2 3/4 years ( will increase until the next race)
3. Fernando Alonso 2 1/2 years
4. Jenson Button ~1 year
5. Ayrton Senna ~130 days
6. Chris Ammon ~ 85 days


(*capped with the last race)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


b) Post-Korean GP 2011, with Vettel and Schumi

!Same thing without the troublesome point system and podiums as the first event:!

The statistically greatest F1 drivers relative to age:

21 years, 73 days - Sebastian Vettel - 1 GP win [2008 Italian Grand Prix]
24 years - Sevastian Vettel - 2. WDC, 21. GP wins [2011 Indian Grand Prix] ( will increase till the next race)
27 years ~ 270 days - Michael Schumacher - 2 WDC, 22. GP win [1996 Italian Grand Prix]
31 years, ~180 days - Ayrton Senna- 3. WDC ( 34 GP wins) [1991 Japanese Grand Prix]
31 years, ~310 days - Michael Schumacher - 3. WDC, 43. GP win [2000 Japanese Grand Prix]
42 years - Michael Schumacher 7 WDC, 91 GP wins [2011 Indian Grand Prix] ( will increase until the next race)


Time spent as the statistically greatest F1 driver*:

1. Michael Schumacher 14 year / (11 active F1 years) + ( will increase until the next race)
2. Sebastian Vettel 5 1/4 years ( will increase until the next race)
3. Ayrton Senna ~130 days

(*capped with the last race)



I have to check again. It is quite difficult to get it all right, if you spot an error report it. I will also try to update it, but it will be quite some time until I need to do so (see list).


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After popular demand I added another ranking. This is only about pole positions.

The statistically greatest F1 Qualifiers:

21 years, 72 days - Sebastian Vettel - 1. pole [2008 Italian Grand Prix]
24 years - Sebastian Vettel - 30. pole [2011 Brazilian Grand Prix] ( will increase till next race)
28 years, ~225 days - Ayrton Senna - 31. pole [1989 San Marino Grand Prix]
37 years, ~100 days - Michael Schumacher - 66. pole [2006 San Marino Grand Prix]
42 years, Michael Schumacher, 68 poles [2011 Brazilian Grand Prix] ( will increase until the next race)

Time spent as the statistically greatest F1 Qualifier:*

1. Ayrton Senna - 8 2/3 years
2. Michael Schumacher - 5 years / ( 2 active F1 years) ( will increase until the next race)
3. Sebastian Vettel - 3 years days ( will increase until the next race)

(*capped with the last race)



This one has been made pretty quickly. Hamilton came very close to Seb after scoring the 6th pole, with a difference of less than a month, but Seb then pulled away rapidly. Jim Clark and Fernando Alonso came also pretty close to Ayrtons 20. pole agewise, but then Ayrton was starting his 88 and 89 pole streaks, so he could not be catched by Clark. The major handicap for Jim is of course the (far) smaller number of races compared to later years.

While do believe that it should be correct, I will have to check it later.

Edited by H2H, 26 November 2011 - 17:21.

[Dunder]

I am not at all sure what we are supposed to be looking at but I believe Chris Amon finished 7th in a race (no points for 7th at that time of course) when he was a few days younger than Vettel was when he scored his first point.

[Kvothe]

Surely this could just go in the Vettel thread since i see no other point to this thread?

[H2H]

Comments:

In the last 20 years F1 has seen younger and younger guys getting great results and having long careers. Vettel and Schumacher are the prime examples. Senna, born in 1960 is the only one on that list who would today be older than 50. Better preparations, longer seasons, more reliable cars and much better survivability are IMHO the prime reason why recent driver dominate those rankings. So this list really shows just how F1 has changed in the last decades.

It also shows once again how difficult it is to compare drivers across the long history of F1.

P.S: Pretty surprised that Lewis Hamilton didn't make it on the list, but he gets squeezed out so far by Vettel and Alonso. Vettel already has 13 GP wins (+ WDC) and Alonso got his 2. WDC with 14 wins earlier than Lewis his 14th win (25 years ~8 months).

Edited by H2H, 16 May 2011 - 15:58.

[Kvothe]

http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/stats/

Youngest driver to set fastest lap
Nico Rosberg at the age of 20 years, 258 days during the 2006 Bahrain Grand Prix in a Williams.

Michael Schumacher set 10 fastest laps during 2004 with his Ferrari F248 (out of 18 races)

[H2H]

http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/stats/

Youngest driver to set fastest lap
Nico Rosberg at the age of 20 years, 258 days during the 2006 Bahrain Grand Prix in a Williams.

Michael Schumacher set 10 fastest laps during 2004 with his Ferrari F248 (out of 18 races)

As I have written above fastest laps and pole positions do not bring points and are incredibly difficult to include. If you know a way, just write about it.

[Buttoneer]

P.S: Could a Mod correct the spelling, especially of the title?

Sure, but I'll only be doing the title, the rest is your problem

I'm not sure I like this analysis at all. 'Youngest this and that' becomes quite meaningless is the average age of drivers falls, so I wonder whether a far better measure is years in F1. This can/should probably include years of testing as it's all gaining real experience but I can see that one might attract some dissent or at least be open to change.

[arknor]

As I have written above fastest laps and pole positions do not bring points and are incredibly difficult to include. If you know a way, just write about it.

pole positions dont bring points? on what planet... start at the back of the grid every race and see how many points that brings compared to starting at the front

[Rob]

I am not at all sure what we are supposed to be looking at but I believe Chris Amon finished 7th in a race (no points for 7th at that time of course) when he was a few days younger than Vettel was when he scored his first point.

At the 1963 French Grand Prix, Chris Amon finished 7th at the age of 19 years, 346 days, beating Mr Vettel by three days.

[H2H]

At the 1963 French Grand Prix, Chris Amon finished 7th at the age of 19 years, 346 days, beating Mr Vettel by three days.

Thanks - this result slipped because I used the Wiki entry of F1 driver records, but tried to use the same point system for all drivers/season. Chris will get his place.

Edited by H2H, 16 May 2011 - 17:00.

[H2H]

pole positions dont bring points? on what planet... start at the back of the grid every race and see how many points that brings compared to starting at the front

If you would have read the intro you would have known why. But if you know a good way to implement it, please go ahead and tell us. I would be grateful.

Maybe I will make a second "pole" ranking, but we will see, it takes a lot of time.

Edited by H2H, 16 May 2011 - 17:07.

[H2H]

Sure, but I'll only be doing the title, the rest is your problem ;)

I'm not sure I like this analysis at all. 'Youngest this and that' becomes quite meaningless is the average age of drivers falls, so I wonder whether a far better measure is years in F1. This can/should probably include years of testing as it's all gaining real experience but I can see that one might attract some dissent or at least be open to change.

Age was the easiest variable to use and also a sensible one IMHO. But as a matter of fact I also thought about the lenght of the carreer in F1. As with age, 'F1 age' is not the perfect answer-it-all, as in this case racing experience outside F1 and more favorable maturity will influence the result. But if I have time it could be well worth trying to rank things that way and to compare the results....

Edited by H2H, 16 May 2011 - 17:15.

[undersquare]

P.S: Pretty surprised that Lewis Hamilton didn't make it on the list

Yeah I can imagine , I bet it made you nearly give up the fascinating idea of the thread

[Zava]

I don't really get the system... why is Button listed also as point scorer? why is Schumacher listed as 42 years old when he achieved those things around the age of 37?
also, you could give a new 'event', youngest to score a podium.

[apoka]

I'm not sure I like this analysis at all. 'Youngest this and that' becomes quite meaningless is the average age of drivers falls, so I wonder whether a far better measure is years in F1.

Wasn't there an analysis that showed that average age did not change much in the past decades? I couldn't find the thread, unfortunately.

I think there will be an inofficial hunt to beat Sennas age record to achieve 3rd WDC in a few years. Maybe, I should start a poll asking whether people think Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso will beat it (first). We definitely need more threads comparing those drivers.

[H2H]

Yeah I can imagine , I bet it made you nearly give up the fascinating idea of the thread

Check the data - if you look at it would be surprised too. He almost made it in in three occasions, so my hunch was quite good - but not good enough. As said above this thread is strictly based on facts and IMHO the most sensible methods to test this approach. However with the best of intentions, as with other statistics, it can not give us the definate answer.

'F1 age' will/would change a lot, but means a lot of work.

Edited by H2H, 16 May 2011 - 18:34.

[H2H]

I don't really get the system... why is Button listed also as point scorer? why is Schumacher listed as 42 years old when he achieved those things around the age of 37?
also, you could give a new 'event', youngest to score a podium.

Including podiums would change nothing, as IIRC Vettel also scored with his win in Monza the 'youngest' podium.

I will think about those 3 years of MSC, but taking them away would screw up the clear 'age' concept and mix it up with 'F1 age'.

[bourbon]

Sure, but I'll only be doing the title, the rest is your problem ;)

I'm not sure I like this analysis at all. 'Youngest this and that' becomes quite meaningless is the average age of drivers falls, so I wonder whether a far better measure is years in F1. This can/should probably include years of testing as it's all gaining real experience but I can see that one might attract some dissent or at least be open to change.

I disagree with your initial assertion that 'Youngest this and that' becomes quite meaningless is the average age of drivers falls'.

The average age isn't dropping fast enough for that to be a valid concern. That is, the titles are not all held by the current crop of young drivers. Some are held by those no longer in the sport.

[H2H]

Updated it a bit to explain things better and added a second ranking without points as an event to get rid of the quite troublesome changing pointsystem. It didn't change a hair for the first three.

[velgajski1]

Updated it a bit to explain things better and added a second ranking without points as an event to get rid of the quite troublesome changing pointsystem. It didn't change a hair for the first three.

This metodology shows some interesting things. Surprising result is lack of Hamilton on list, but this actually debunks some negative myths on Hamilton.

If you look at this ranking, and compare it with % of wins in career, % of podiums, total points per race (scaled to one of the systems of course), of all drivers in current F1 but Schumacher (of course), Hamilton has overall best statistics. How is that possible that he doesn't make it to the list while Alonso and Vettel do make it?

Answer is twofold:
1. He didn't have as easy time entering F1 (he entered it at somewhat later age) as Vettel and Alonso.
2. He was consistent in results ever since he entered F1, unlike Alonso for example whose career has ups and downs.

So, as you can see it actually shows that Hamiltons biggest strength is CONSISTENCY, and that he had HARDEST time entering F1 out of all his opponents, so to say which is also surprising as general view is a bit different.

[Callahan]

Surely this could just go in the Vettel thread since i see no other point to this thread?

[ryan86]

Wasn't there an analysis that showed that average age did not change much in the past decades? I couldn't find the thread, unfortunately.

I think there will be an inofficial hunt to beat Sennas age record to achieve 3rd WDC in a few years. Maybe, I should start a poll asking whether people think Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso will beat it (first). We definitely need more threads comparing those drivers.

I think the youngest race was the 1997 French GP, and that was 14 years ago. Might chance if Rubens, Trulli and Michael call it a day at the end of the season.

[Clatter]

pole positions dont bring points? on what planet... start at the back of the grid every race and see how many points that brings compared to starting at the front

OK then. Start on pole and DNF, how points do you get?

[arknor]

OK then. Start on pole and DNF, how points do you get?

well we should all tell redbull qualifying is a huge waste of time and they just shouldnt bother then

[Clatter]

well we should all tell redbull qualifying is a huge waste of time and they just shouldnt bother then

Why be stupid about it? The fact is there are no points given for pole position, your the one that seems to think differently.

[arknor]

Why be stupid about it? The fact is there are no points given for pole position, your the one that seems to think differently.

i didnt say it gave points but statisticly speaking pole positions lead to points.

go check statisticly how many races are won by the person who starts on pole, and this is a statistics thread no? its not called "points relative to age"

Edited by arknor, 17 May 2011 - 13:25.

[H2H]

i didnt say it gave points but statisticly speaking pole positions lead to points.

go check statisticly how many races are won by the person who starts on pole, and this is a statistics thread no? its not called "points relative to age"

Frankly you really didn't seem to have understand what statistics can do. In this case it shows a certain data ample structured with a certain method, other statistics like one about how high the average number of points won after obtaining a pole show different things. If you want you can show us such one or make one, thanks a lot.

Edited by H2H, 17 May 2011 - 14:07.

[Atreiu]

Who was the best at 5 years old?

[H2H]

Who was the best at 5 years old?

Yes, I should have added F1 driver.

[H2H]

Updated.

[revlec]

This metodology shows some interesting things. Surprising result is lack of Hamilton on list, but this actually debunks some negative myths on Hamilton.

If you look at this ranking, and compare it with % of wins in career, % of podiums, total points per race (scaled to one of the systems of course), of all drivers in current F1 but Schumacher (of course), Hamilton has overall best statistics. How is that possible that he doesn't make it to the list while Alonso and Vettel do make it?

Answer is twofold:
1. He didn't have as easy time entering F1 (he entered it at somewhat later age) as Vettel and Alonso.
2. He was consistent in results ever since he entered F1, unlike Alonso for example whose career has ups and downs.

So, as you can see it actually shows that Hamiltons biggest strength is CONSISTENCY, and that he had HARDEST time entering F1 out of all his opponents, so to say which is also surprising as general view is a bit different.

Exactly..
If we look at what Hamilton achieved in his pre F1 career, it safe to say it could have joined a Midfield team in 2004(max 2005) and be at McLaren in 2006/2007..
People just don't like the fact that he joined a Top Team but they ignore he also spent more time in lower open wheel series...

If you ask me, i wil say Vettel had a very easy time to join F1.. but given the results, it was a good decision ..

Edited by revlec, 22 May 2011 - 16:57.

[sv401]

25 years, ~90 days - Fernando Alonso - 2. WDC (14 GP wins) [2005 Brazilian Grand Prix]

Shouldn't this be 15 wins (1 in 2003, 7 in 2005 and 2006), and 2006 Brazilian GP (for the 2. WDC, 15th win was in Japan) ?

[stevewf1]

I think this whole exercise is somewhat futile...

Back in the "old" days, drivers could get killed off if they didn't mind their manners, so to speak, on the track. It really was a dangerous pursuit.

Not taking anything away from Vettel or the others, but today's drivers are racing in a totally safe environment unheard of back then.

These days, any talented kid with money can have a go without much worry about getting seriously hurt - or worse.

[Stormsky68]

I don't get it. What are you using statistics to try and prove? Are you trying to claim Vettel is a more successful driver than Michael Schumacher?

Yeah right.......

[scheivlak]

I think this whole exercise is somewhat futile...

Back in the "old" days, drivers could get killed off if they didn't mind their manners, so to speak, on the track. It really was a dangerous pursuit.

Not taking anything away from Vettel or the others, but today's drivers are racing in a totally safe environment unheard of back then.

These days, any talented kid with money can have a go without much worry about getting seriously hurt - or worse.

Apart from that, measuring success or greatness from the number of poles or wins should take into measure that there were often just 7, 8 or 9 GPs in the 1950s and still only 9-12 in the sixties.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Statistics are more than just a bunch of numbers tabulated. At the very least, there has to be some meaning behind them. I'm struggling to see what it is in this exercise.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 22 May 2011 - 23:29.

[BigCHrome]

This whole "age" argument is very flawed. Vettel has been driving F1 cars since 2006, the same year as Hamilton had his first tests. They've driven very similar mileage, the biggest difference is that Lewis had to spend more time concentrating on junior series like GP2 and Formula 3.

[ashnathan]

Id say age is irrelevant when you have the car Vettel has had for 3 consecutive seasons now. I still think overall lewis is the better driver even if 'stats' dont stack up in his favour

[H2H]

Shouldn't this be 15 wins (1 in 2003, 7 in 2005 and 2006), and 2006 Brazilian GP (for the 2. WDC, 15th win was in Japan) ?

Corrected. Thanks a lot.

Edited by H2H, 23 May 2011 - 05:51.

[H2H]

Apart from that, measuring success or greatness from the number of poles or wins should take into measure that there were often just 7, 8 or 9 GPs in the 1950s and still only 9-12 in the sixties.

I actually wrote about that problem. The trouble is even official F1 statistics don't take that into account - there it is all about the absolute number. Personally I like to add ratios and percentages of wins/poles/podium per GP. Points are also very troublesome as the systems kept changing. Of course even this yard stick isn't perfect as it favours drivers getting immediatly a winning car and having one throughout their career, like Fangio.

[Stormsky68]

If you want to make this thread meaningful, use some level of objectivity to split results out into 2 columns:

1) Results where the driver had the best car in the year (and its really not difficult to judge when those were)
2) Results where the driver did not have the best car

Divide results for each group by the total number of races in each group

Present results for each group seperately, the sign of a driver's 'greatness' IMO, will be in the second column, ie what they managed to achieve when they did not have the best car.

That's how your going to make everyone impressed with how good Vettel is.

[H2H]

If you want to make this thread meaningful, use some level of objectivity to split results out into 2 columns:

1) Results where the driver had the best car in the year (and its really not difficult to judge when those were)
2) Results where the driver did not have the best car

Divide results for each group by the total number of races in each group

Present results for each group seperately, the sign of a driver's 'greatness' IMO, will be in the second column, ie what they managed to achieve when they did not have the best car.

That's how your going to make everyone impressed with how good Vettel is.

Read again the title and the description. It is called "statistically greatst drivers relative to age" and is based on official FIA data, which doesn't care a **** how good the car was, be it Senna, Schumi, Alonso, Lewis or Vettel.

.......................

Updated.

[H2H]

Updated.

[H2H]

Updated.

[klyster]

Chris Amon only has one "m"

[H2H]

Chris Amon only has one "m"

Thanks. Corrected & Updated.

[Bloggsworth]

Bo**ocks to methodology, once again the answer is FANGIO, Won over 48% of Grand Prix he started, won the WDC 5 times between the ages of 39 and 46 - End of discussion.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 25 June 2011 - 22:38.

[H2H]

Bo**ocks to methodology, once again the answer is FANGIO, Won over 48% of Grand Prix he started, won the WDC 5 times between the ages of 39 and 46 - End of discussion.

There is no shade of doubt that Fangio was the greatest old driver to have set foot into an F1 car.

P.S: updated.

[Stormsky68]

Read again the title and the description. It is called "statistically greatst drivers relative to age" and is based on official FIA data, which doesn't care a **** how good the car was, be it Senna, Schumi, Alonso, Lewis or Vettel.

.......................

Updated.

Statistically pointless statistics

[H2H]

Statistically pointless statistics

Not if you ask drivers like Hamilton...