21 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

I'm keen to have detailed results for German hillclimbs on OldRacingCars.com but I'm having trouble finding a magazine that gave those results in detail.

I have some Race+Rallye from the 1970s and some German Sport Auto but they only give class winners.

Can anyone recommend which magazines in Germany had more detailed coverage? In Britain there was Autosport, in France Echappement, in Italy Auto Sprint. What was the equivalent in Germany?

[Ralf Pickel]

There was a mag called "Sportfahrer".
This usually had more detailed results from those events IIRC.

[David McKinney]

Auto Motor und Sport - at least for an earlier postwar period

[r.atlos]

It depends - what period and what category are you looking for ? If it's about single seaters, you should not expect too much.

[Tuboscocca]

I'm keen to have detailed results for German hillclimbs on OldRacingCars.com but I'm having trouble finding a magazine that gave those results in detail.

I have some Race+Rallye from the 1970s and some German Sport Auto but they only give class winners.

Can anyone recommend which magazines in Germany had more detailed coverage? In Britain there was Autosport, in France Echappement, in Italy Auto Sprint. What was the equivalent in Germany?

You can also try the Swiss publication Automobil Revue (either German or French) This mag is beside Autocar one of the oldest (founded 1906).They have done often accurate reports on smaller German hillclimbs, as many Swiss drivers participated..

Regards Michael

[Allen Brown]

There was a mag called "Sportfahrer".
This usually had more detailed results from those events IIRC.

I have seen copies of Sportfahrer on eBay but the seller didn't give any clues on the content. Also, I got the impression that this magazine didn't start until about 1976. Do you know if it goes back to 1970-ish?

[Allen Brown]

It depends - what period and what category are you looking for ? If it's about single seaters, you should not expect too much.

Actually I'm looking more for sports cars than for single-seaters (but single-seaters would be a bonus). And the period of main interest is the 1970s but I would work out from there in due course to cover the 1960s and 1980s.

During the early 1970s, it's clear that a lot of very interesting racing cars were owned by Germans so I'm sure they must have been racing them somewhere. As an example, Martin Pawlowski bought a new Gropa-Chevron for 1972 but even the excellent racingsportscars.com only shows it appearing twice all year. Also Dieter Münch had a Chevron B19 that he'd bought new but hardly ever appears in circuit racing. And not forgetting Roland Heiler, Walter Lehmann, Clemens Schickentanz, Kurt Hild, Alex Janda, Manfred Pade, Norbert Dombrowski, Heinz Wechsler and Georg Moritz, all of whom had competitive sports racing cars in 1972.

Jurgen Zaborowski recently described to me competing in hillclimbs in 1972 in his Chevron B19 against Rolf Stommelen in an Alfa 33. Sounds interesting!

All suggestions welcome.

[fivestar]

I presume that you have already looked at the following link.

http://www.kolumbus....ellman/hcw0.htm

[Allen Brown]

Leif's excellent site only goes up to 1949 and only gives winners.

I'm trying to find full results.

[grimeheel]

You probably don't want to copy other sites, but check out: http://www.euromontagna.com/

I have not verified any of the data on this site. Just a thought.

[Allen Brown]

Another very good website but Roman does not have any details of German events before the mid-1980s.

[r.atlos]

Actually I'm looking more for sports cars than for single-seaters (but single-seaters would be a bonus). And the period of main interest is the 1970s but I would work out from there in due course to cover the 1960s and 1980s.

[...]

All suggestions welcome.

@Allen - I may have fairly well covered sports cars for the 1968 - 1976 period in my research of some smaller German Gr.6 producers by spending days and days at the DMSB in Frankfurt, scanning in old and dusty result lists. I'll drop you a PM to discuss offline.

[PonysiteEd]

A publication called "ONS Mitteilungen" will provide all the information you may need. I have one from Oktober 1970 (#10). They contain all hillclimb entries and much more. The October issue covers May through September, so that may give some idea, which issues you would need.
ONS stands for Oberste Nationale Sportkommission, which was based in Frankfurt /Main, Baseler Platz 6. Operative until 1997, since then it is the DMSB= Deutscher Motor Sport Bund

Edited by PonysiteEd, 21 May 2011 - 07:41.

[David McKinney]

Do you know when the OMS Mitteilungen started?

[Rob Semmeling]

Maybe the "Autodrom: Motorsportdokumentation" booklets are of interest. In addition to various other championships, they cover the German Hillclimb Championship, although the reports are write-ups per round and lack a list of results.

Autodrom was first published in 1969, and each volume covers the preceding year. At least 25 volumes were published (covering the years through 1993), but I only have the first five. Easy to find on German Ebay, but often expensive.

The ONS Mitteilungen, dating back at least to the late 1950s, are a good source for your purposes but certainly not perfect. They give the complete placings but without the times, and as I recall also results per class only, not overall placings (which, without the times, are impossible to determine, so you'd have to check elsewhere to find overall winners).

[Allen Brown]

That's ONS Mitteilungen David, not OMS Mitteilungen. That's just sloppy. Really sloppy.

[Allen Brown]

Thanks very much PonysiteEd and Rob for those leads on ONS Mitteilungen. I have also received another very generous (but anonymous) offer of help on ONS Mitteilungen and r.atlos's kind offer of help with scanned results.

This is really going very well indeed. Whoever says TNF isn't what it used to be should take a look at this thread and be reassured.

[Frank de Jong]

Maybe the "Autodrom: Motorsportdokumentation" booklets are of interest. In addition to various other championships, they cover the German Hillclimb Championship, although the reports are write-ups per round and lack a list of results.

Autodrom was first published in 1969, and each volume covers the preceding year. At least 25 volumes were published (covering the years through 1993), but I only have the first five. Easy to find on German Ebay, but often expensive.

The ONS Mitteilungen, dating back at least to the late 1950s, are a good source for your purposes but certainly not perfect. They give the complete placings but without the times, and as I recall also results per class only, not overall placings (which, without the times, are impossible to determine, so you'd have to check elsewhere to find overall winners).

Rob, the first one was published in 1968 - so off you go to German Ebay
Or was it a typo?

[David McKinney]

That's ONS Mitteilungen David, not OMS Mitteilungen. That's just sloppy. Really sloppy.

I'm not fazed. It's the first mistake I've ever made

[Rob Semmeling]

Rob, the first one was published in 1968 - so off you go to German Ebay
Or was it a typo?

Frank, volume 1 was published in 1969, but as I wrote each volume covers the preceding year. Check your copy

Btw, for Germany's best known hillclimb, Freiburg-Schauinsland, there is this book by Henning Volle.

[Frank de Jong]

[theRocker]

Hello,
I am Helmut from Germany and I got the "Sportfahrer" magazine from the very fist issue that started in 1973. Sportfahrer looked after minor categories of German motorsports. Later in the 80s it drifted towards road sportscars before it disappeard not being missed by anybody. Motorsport had changed in the meantime as there were not any minor categories in German motorsport left as it became too expensive. But yes, Sportfahrer reported about "Bergrennen" quite a lot, but even here the number of hillclimp tracks that were usually public roads dimished due to safety reasons and not being allowed by the political authorities.

In 1969 "Deutsche Auto Zeitung" later only "Auto Zeitung" came into existance and brought many articles of Deutsche Rundstreckenmeisterschaft and Deutsche Bergmeisterschaft, many of them with pictures. Btw Deutsche Auto Zeitung was the sponsor of the famous Ford GT40 of Neuhaus/Kelleners in 1969 and the Interserie March 707 in 1970.

Auto, Motor und Sport as mentioned before was for a long time the only German car magazine and had much more Motorsport features than today, usually with the race results of the first three in class, circuit and hillclimb.

Rallye Racing was first published in 1968 and also wrote about the hillclimb championship but also of the non-championship rounds as did the eary Sport Auto issues. The very first Sport Auto copies were translations of the French sport.auto magazines.

When I raced my 1977 Mini 1000 and circuit racing became too expensive to me I tried some hillclimbs, for example the Trierer Bergrennen that counted for the European Hillclimb Championship. That was in 1988 - 1990. I still have all the results of the events I took part in if you needed them...

Kind regards
Helmut