70 replies to this topic

[abc02]

I've always wondered why I was never as fast in driving sims as I'd like to be. And then yesterday I took a reaction time test.

http://www.mathsisfu...ction-time.html

The human average is about 0.215 seconds (according to this), yet I struggle to get my average below 0.3s.

Do I need better reactions to be quicker? Or is it irrelevant?

Edited by abc02, 20 May 2011 - 16:07.

[DanardiF1]

Jeremy Clarkson covered this in his program 'Speed' from a few years back. He compared his reaction time to that of Michael Schumacher, and found that they were fairly similar in their natural reaction times. A sports biologist told him that it's not the reaction time itself that gives a sportsman an edge over their rivals, but the anticipation and knowledge of what is going to happen, being active rather than reactive.

If you are reacting to something, that event has already happened, and it may have 'happened' enough to be irreversible, even with the fastest reaction possible. But if you are anticipating that event, you prepare for it, again even if it's just for the tiniest of moments, you are ahead of the event. The best racing drivers feel what is going to happen, not just what is happening right there and then.

[BorderReiver]

Anyone who thinks being a better racing driver means quicker reaction times is an idiot.

All human beings have roughly the same reaction times, good racing drivers simply react, via experience or talent, to earlier cues. For example they'll detect a slide much earlier from the hundreds of thousands of bits of information they're collecting both consciously and subconsciously and react sooner than someone who doesn't pick up on that information.

Race driving isn't about reactions, it's about processing information.

[BorderReiver]

I've always wondered why I was never as fast in driving sims as I'd like to be. And then yesterday I took a reaction time test.

http://www.mathsisfu...ction-time.html

The human average is about 0.215 seconds (according to this), yet I struggle to get my average below 0.3s.

Do I need better reactions to be quicker? Or is it irrelevant?

Well, I've been driving racing cars and karts, on and off, since I was a kid and I scored 0.224 as an average there. For what that's worth. But simply watching a dot change colour and clicking is a pretty poor test next to the myriad of factors which come into play driving a racing car.

[faaaz]

0.202, but i still suck at sims

[Collective]

Jeremy Clarkson covered this in his program 'Speed' from a few years back. He compared his reaction time to that of Michael Schumacher, and found that they were fairly similar in their natural reaction times. A sports biologist told him that it's not the reaction time itself that gives a sportsman an edge over their rivals, but the anticipation and knowledge of what is going to happen, being active rather than reactive.

If you are reacting to something, that event has already happened, and it may have 'happened' enough to be irreversible, even with the fastest reaction possible. But if you are anticipating that event, you prepare for it, again even if it's just for the tiniest of moments, you are ahead of the event. The best racing drivers feel what is going to happen, not just what is happening right there and then.

Will Buxton also made a driver training program after the Abu Dahbi tests and reached the same conclusion. He was better than some drivers in reaction time, but did terribly compared to them in memory tests (a sort of Simon Says game). Physical shape, memory, seemed to give pros the edge over him.

BTW, Kubica had the best score in that memory test

[Ulledulledof]

This test doesn't quite work because not everyone have the same equipment. Slow screen and/or poor mouse adds delay for you reaction time. This can be easily some ~20ms extra.
I'm averaging 0.174 on my gaming computer. I was hardly under 0.200 when I tried this at work with different computer.

[ryan86]

0.256 to 0.263 over 4 attempts.

In my school yearbook, I was noted for my cat-like reflexes in goals, but I myself put that down to 3 things. Bravery to throw myself at the player, the courage to decide what direction to dive before the ball has been struck during penalties and also that I was probably reading the opposing players bodies as well, so I tend to agree with the above about it being able to read situations and not have to think about reacting to them.

[Slowinfastout]

anticipation is the secret, reaction time is overrated IMHO

[Ross Stonefeld]

The other problem is reaction times only test people in 'civillian' forms. Have they ever managed to measure the reaction times of an F1 driver while driving an F1 car? Ie 'in the zone' ?

[pRy]

Look but never stare.

[Tenmantaylor]

Schumacher after his big slide at Bridge at Silverstone one year and still bagging pole said if you are reacting you are already too late, to be fast you have to predict or pre empt the behaviour of the car. Brundle often talks about Senna's sixth sense for the available grip in adverse conditions.

[pRy]

Senna made it a personal mission to improve in the rain and so every time it rained he was out in his kart in Brazil practicing in wet weather conditions.

[BRK]

Averaged .198 but that was spoiled by a bad third effort. (0.245)

[cosicave]

Some wisdom in the comments this thread has produced.

Of course reaction times are important but this is true of most sports. Far more important is an ability to understand the big picture, which will take account of likely events in the immediate future: anticipation. A race driver's success or failure rarely hangs on his or her reaction times; even correcting a slide is due more to anticipation than reaction to it.

Some of the skills displayed by a driver may be so well anticipated that they may look like the result of reaction to the novice.

[MrMonaco]

I've got 0.174, looks like it's pretty fast, maybe I should try some race sims

All in all this is just one of many qualities that racing drivers must have to be competitive.

[Tenmantaylor]

I averaged about .22 and I've done pretty well at sims. IMO the only time it's an advantage is at the start but even then being consistent and what you do after reacting is more important.

[Juan Kerr]

I averaged about .22 and I've done pretty well at sims. IMO the only time it's an advantage is at the start but even then being consistent and what you do after reacting is more important.

averag 0.163 fastest 0.154 I think the speed of the mouse button mechanism probably has the biggest effect though. I'd rather spacebar.

[Chezrome]

0.226 here.

But I don't believe the average reaction time is 0.210, that would be too quick...

[Chezrome]

Schumacher after his big slide at Bridge at Silverstone one year and still bagging pole said if you are reacting you are already too late, to be fast you have to predict or pre empt the behaviour of the car. Brundle often talks about Senna's sixth sense for the available grip in adverse conditions.

It was said about Tazio Nuvolari (famous racer in the early years) that he could feel the movements of the four wheels on his car, seperately... if you can do that, you don't need fast reaction times.

Edited by Chezrome, 08 June 2011 - 12:30.

[Chezrome]

anticipation is the secret, reaction time is overrated IMHO

And anticipation is often helped by SLOWING DOWN your reaction, I've found as an avid tennisplayer and coach.

[Juan Kerr]

People always have to try and prove the opposite don't they. I imagine fast reactions are so much more useful in any sport than slow ones. The biggest factor in working out how fast you can drive is reacting to a car's balance and behaviour, the quicker you can do that the better, experience only helps decide what to do when you do react. There are alo many non-reactive inputs that good drivers input of course based on their experience and ability.

Edited by Juan Kerr, 12 June 2011 - 14:53.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The funny thing is this thread is proving the value of anticipation over reaction.

[Afterburner]

When I first tried the test, my time was about .28.

When I tried the test after several times, anticipating the change in color of the dot, I got my time down to .14.

I think that settles things here.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

anticipation is the secret, reaction time is overrated IMHO

There is more to it than that. Anticipation is just a way to counteract non-instant reaction time. The faster your reaction time is, the less demand is placed on your anticipation skill.

[Afterburner]

There is more to it than that. Anticipation is just a way to counteract non-instant reaction time. The faster your reaction time is, the less demand is placed on your anticipation skill.

The inverse is also true. The better your anticipation skill, the less demand is placed on your reaction time.

Knowing the behavior of the vehicle you're driving/flying/piloting/whatever on any racing game is the most important thing. Knowing how to react is just as important as knowing when to react. Racing isn't as simple as pushing a button when a dot changes color.

Let's say I'm playing Forza Motorsport 3 with a tail-happy car. I know that the back end really likes to step out over certain kerbs. There's two ways to go about this--you can drive over the kerb and not worry about reacting until the car slides out from beneath you, or you can expect the car to slide out a certain way when driven a certain way and therefore be ready for it when it happens. Reaction and anticipation go hand-in-hand. The first of these scenarios is obviously more unlikely, because any experienced racer will usually be relying less on their reaction time and more on their knowledge of the track and car when driving a particular track quickly--it's more of a rhythm and less of a seat-of-your-pants experience. On a hot-lap or speedrun, anticipation is more important than reaction time, if only slightly, because you're in control of your car's behavior and you've got nothing else to worry about other than how you expect/know your car to behave.

Now, let's change things up--I'm playing Mario Kart Wii, and I'm running down the front straight slipstreaming someone who's dragging a banana peel behind their bike while I've got no offensive items. I have no idea if this guy is a defensive player or an offensive player. He could suddenly drop the banana right in front of me at any moment, cut my draft, spin me around off of my wheelie, and cruise off into the distance unimpeded leaving me with an extra two/three seconds to make up on him, or he might just hold onto it and wait to use it into the next corner. Anticipation tells me that the next corner is a blind left-hander with a tight apex--a good place to drop a banana peel--but I'll still need to be ready for him in case he drops it right here on the straight to end my slipstream. Regardless, there's no way I'm going to know what my opponent does until he does it--reaction time is more important here than anticipation, because even if I can guess what my opponent is going to do, that's no good if I can't react to it in time to dodge it.

Emphasis on reaction time/anticipation depends entirely on the situation you're in. Strategically-based, distant races call more on anticipation and experience, and close-run, driving-based races call more on reaction time and speed, though the difference between these is quite negligable. Whichever way you figure it, it's still best to be good at both anticipating and reacting.

[Tenmantaylor]

Good description afterburner

[Dmitriy_Guller]

The inverse is also true. The better your anticipation skill, the less demand is placed on your reaction time.;)

Of course, but it's not symmetric. You can't anticipate things perfectly, that would require a time machine. Therefore, there will always be some error or imprecision associated with anticipation. However, if your reaction time is instant, it is in theory possible to do everything perfectly.

The point a lot of you seem to be making is that you can't rely on reaction time alone. That is true, but only because even good reaction times are still not good enough. Reaction time of .15 seconds is phenomenal for a human, but that's still way too slow for the machines we're dealing with. That's at least an order of magnitude, if not several, slower than the reaction time of the various driving aids like traction control. Therefore, it is true that quick reaction time alone will be insufficient, but it's also helpful to understand completely why it's insufficient.

[HoldenRT]

Had .2 on average.

I've seen a guy in sims win everything and he had a girly voice on mic and sounded like he'd never played sport in his life. He didn't even use force feedback in his wheel, and didn't want to drive Redbull's simulator and didn't care for realism. He just enjoyed raping everybody with some sort of freakish ability that no one could understand.

You drive an opening lap, you push too hard, the rear wheels slide too far and you catch it and lose time.. or you have some warning signs to "watch it" without actually losing much time. Then you come around to that corner the next lap 90 secs later and are more careful but take it too cautiosly.. then you come around that corner again and nail it and it's like scratching an itch "ahh yeah, that's the spot". Then after a few laps the balance changes and it happens all over again. The car becomes lighter and you can go into the corner a little faster. Or the tyres become worn and you need to brake a little earlier to keep the same apex and exit speeds. Always to be pushing the edge but reading the warning signs and losing the least amount of time with them. Different drivers seem better able to toe the line then others. Of course all F1 drivers are ridiculous compared to normal people but yeah. Even for the F1 drivers, it's one of the reasons why when they are in traffic it can be hard for them to match the pace of the leaders who are in clear air.. they often have to build up to this pace, while lose leaders have been doing that all race long. It's also why sometimes guys in slower cars can be helped by SC or luck but maintain a strong pace at the front. Piquet did it at Hockeheim a few seasons ago, he had a SC but he got a podium and kept Massa behind him. It's really hard in race cars to go from a slow pace to a fast pace in short spaces in time without big risks.

It's like the drivers mind is a constant database being updated which corner to corner info, lap to lap info. Everything is constantly being updated and to do that in clear air at your own pace helps alot more then doing it to someone elses pace.

Understanding the setup and circuit helps. If you know going into the race that the slow corners are going to be trickier and to be careful in those areas but the time will be gained in the faster corners it can help you alot. Or if you know how the tyres are going to react, or how the balance is going to change. The experience of past races etc. Otherwise it can be hard from inside the car to know how hard to push. To know where you are gaining or losing.. the car could be sliding around too much and you could be pulling away.. or it could be stable yet you are being reeled in. Where do you push, where are the strengths of your car? Where do you have to "watch it" and be careful? In some ways it's easier to be tailing someone and go off on his inputs and find out where you are stronger or weaker then him. He might pit and you are now in clear air but you still know where you are stronger, where you can push harder with less risks. Every lap is like a gamble, how much do you want to risk? This is why even driving around a circuit on your own can be very rewarding IMO. It's a bit like golf, you vs the circuit/course.

There is so many calculations going on seperate from braking and throttle. Driving seems to be more about multi tasking then reactions, although reactions seems to be more useful when you come around a blind corner and there is a car in the middle of the track for example.

I guess the short way is just saying anticipation and understanding what is happening before it happens but yeah.

I guess it's the same as ball sports like baseball, tennis, cricket. Especially in cricket, batsmen need to get their "eye in" before things become easier but it's not their reactions that improve, but their ability to predict what the bowler and the ball are going to do, and what the pitch will allow them to counter with. Given how fast some bowlers bowl, without that ability they are sitting ducks to being hit and hurt. Reactions alone aren't enough.

[HoldenRT]

You see it especially in sports of older ages.. In the early 20's.. sportsmen/women rely on their physical gifts more. Some are also very good at anticipation and they might be the best of what they are doing, but physical gifts help alot and when they have them, they use them.

Then there is the transition period where they start to lose their physical gifts but have a maturity instead that can compensate for the decrease in athetiticism or "sharpness". Then they go past their peak and are slowing down alot but can still keep up with the young guys.. based on experience, knowledge and anticipation. It's like they have the mind of a master so their body doesn't need to be so good.

Then you have some guys going into their 30's or even 40's in some sports and they are still able to keep up. In sports where speed, quickness and reactions are important. Jason Kidd just won a championship in the NBA and he is 38 and at times he had to guard people like Kobe Bryant (Mavs swept the Lakers) and he wasn't doing it with speed. But with anticipation and smart game plans and understanding of the game. On paper, at 38 he should have been a liabilty that the other teams could exploit over and over again but it wasn't the case. He is a shell of his former self in alot of ways but also stronger then he has ever been in other ways.

Steve Nash is another one. Rubens in F1 is another one, winning races a few seasons ago. Mansell? I guess there is lots of cases in all sports.

[Sevach]

I'm just about average, 225 average, best 208.

As most people here i don't think it's that important, on an closed track type sim, knowing/predicting before hand how the car might react is the big thing that you need.
And even when you are caught by surprise and have to make a quick correction, control, smoothness, soft hands and feet are more important than reaction. An inexperienced driver can sometimes (a lot of times actually) over-correct.

To sum-up my opinion, there's no substitute for experience.

[Jimisgod]

I feel slow. I was only in the .20 - .26 range, but my computer is slow as anything now

[DrProzac]

Jeremy Clarkson covered this in his program 'Speed' from a few years back. He compared his reaction time to that of Michael Schumacher, and found that they were fairly similar in their natural reaction times. A sports biologist told him that it's not the reaction time itself that gives a sportsman an edge over their rivals, but the anticipation and knowledge of what is going to happen, being active rather than reactive.

That's also my understanding. Plus drivers have the ability of being highly concentrated for a prolonged period of time. They are very efficient at it and don't get mentally exhausted.

A bit of information on this subject form Dr Ceccarelli:
http://www.jamesalle...perience-day-2/
http://www.formula1....009/4/9277.html

BTW similar games to that mentioned in the first article are available on the net. But they are simplified (you use your keyboard and the true-false doesn't change)

Edited by DrProzac, 09 July 2011 - 16:34.

[differential]

0.191.

0.207
0.239
0.039
0.223
0.247

[Jejking]

And anticipation is often helped by SLOWING DOWN your reaction, I've found as an avid tennisplayer and coach.

Hope you'll go into that one, interesting stuff happening on the forums!

Anyone who thinks being a better racing driver means quicker reaction times is an idiot.

All human beings have roughly the same reaction times, good racing drivers simply react, via experience or talent, to earlier cues. For example they'll detect a slide much earlier from the hundreds of thousands of bits of information they're collecting both consciously and subconsciously and react sooner than someone who doesn't pick up on that information.

Race driving isn't about reactions, it's about processing information.

Slide happens. Process info = 1. Develop a logical response to the occuring event = 2. Execute the response in such a way that it corresponds to what is happening.

It's all about reactions but the right ones, timing and dose are critical.

[Chezrome]

And anticipation is often helped by SLOWING DOWN your reaction, I've found as an avid tennisplayer and coach.

Hope you'll go into that one, interesting stuff happening on the forums!

An example is the way tennisplayers splitstep. That is a slight hop in the air the moment the opponent hits the ball. That way you are not flatfooted when you have to change direction. You split, come down on the ground and from that movement go to the ball. Most coaches advise to make a small hop.

However. A better idea is making rather a big hop and to add time to see in the air where the ball is going. That means slowing down your reaction to the ball, giving you less time to actually hit the ball but enlarging the amount of information you get. Which enhances your anticipation.

Other example. In the classical teaching methods, most tennisplayers are advised to bring back their racket behind as soon as they see if it's a forehand or a backhand (or, in the case of the smash to bring the racket behind the head).

I advise (as many modern coaches do) not to bring the racket back immediately, only turn the shoulder very lightly (the uniturn). I advise to keep both hands in front, pointing at the bal is if they are both going to catch them, and only after the bounce of the ball bring back the racket. Most people think you would have no time left to hit the ball, but if they try it, they discover they have lots of time... because now they have really seen what is happening with the bounce.

I can imagine that an unexperienced driver who feels to car going, starts to react immediately. While an experienced driver feels the loss of grip, dares to wait to really feel what is happening... and only then react, properly.

Edited by Chezrome, 21 July 2011 - 08:41.

[Mary Popsins]

The finger reacts slower than the eye. In games speed makes a difference, however the better the timing, the better the player. That may leave some time for the anticipation to interract.

[Bloggsworth]

The best thing is not to get yourself into a situation where reactions are required...

[Dmitriy_Guller]

The best thing is not to get yourself into a situation where reactions are required...

Very good approach for driving on public roads, very bad approach for driving on the limit on the track. If you don't get yourselves in situations where reactions are required, you're leaving yourself too much margin for error.

[Bosseking]

No, not really. Unless by fast reactions you mean not having slow as **** reaction speed.

Being fast is more about hand eye coordination. You brake and turn the wheel at the right time and the right amount and at the same time have the right pressure of brakes applied so you don't understeer of the track or lose the back end. Combine all this and you get what is a called a driving line. In short, better lines = faster driver. Fast reaction speed will only help if your car snaps out violently or something else unexpected happens.

Edited by Bosseking, 11 August 2011 - 18:17.

[bub]

I think it helps but there is a lot more to racing than just reaction times.

[cheapracer]

I've always wondered why I was never as fast in driving sims as I'd like to be. And then yesterday I took a reaction time test.

http://www.mathsisfu...ction-time.html

The human average is about 0.215 seconds (according to this), yet I struggle to get my average below 0.3s.

Do I need better reactions to be quicker? Or is it irrelevant?

I got 0.171 first time so I did it a second time to improve as I believed I knew what to expect and would be faster but came out at 0.194.

I'd rather a driver who knew how to setup a car than one with fast reactions, your question is too simple.

[cheapracer]

I got 0.171 first time so I did it a second time to improve as I believed I knew what to expect and would be faster but came out at 0.194.

I'm quite interested in this and I am at home now and have just finished my work at 2am and am quite tired of course.

My test just now was .204 .205 .199 .203 .211 for an average of 0.204 - will test tomorrow to see if it's tiredness or the different mouse that made the difference ...

[scolbourne]

To achieve fast lap times on a clear track does not require fast reactions, but practice and a good memory.

Overtaking and driving on a changing track when unpredictable things happen does require quick reactions.

In online games where conventions for overtaking occur, means reactions are not so important, as often the lag can be a bigger issue and reacting too quickly can cause both parties to react and cause a zig zag crash.

[Slowinfastout]

To achieve fast lap times on a clear track does not require fast reactions, but practice and a good memory.

Overtaking and driving on a changing track when unpredictable things happen does require quick reactions.

In online games where conventions for overtaking occur, means reactions are not so important, as often the lag can be a bigger issue and reacting too quickly can cause both parties to react and cause a zig zag crash.

You must be an aussie or something... lag isn't an issue in the sims I'm using unless it's someone literally on the other side of the planet.

Again, IMO reaction time is mostly for when you failed to anticipate something correctly.

[scolbourne]

You must be an aussie or something... lag isn't an issue in the sims I'm using unless it's someone literally on the other side of the planet.

Again, IMO reaction time is mostly for when you failed to anticipate something correctly.

you are right. I live in Australia. Ping is normally around 200ms but with two drivers interacting the combined ping is then nearly 1/2 second.

[RoutariEnjinu]

You're just judging conscious reaction to a colour change.
Being highly trained at a sport is about doing it so much that it becomes programmed in to your subconscious. So that it is automatic, so that the decision and slow conscious processes is eliminated.
You're programming an inner zombie with lightning fast reactions.

The test linked is meaningless, except maybe as a test of concentration and focus.

[Aubwi]

I tried rFactor on my 51 inch Toshiba TV (with "game mode" on) and suddenly the car was undriveable compared to my old 22 inch dell monitor. I just could not control a slide at all. I had to anticipate everything and could not spin up the rears at all without fishtailing all over the place. Then I took a reaction time test, and found I was only about 70ms slower on the Toshiba. 280 vs 210 ms. So it can make a big difference in my experience.

On the TV the car feels like it's floating above the track and the steering inputs feel "rubbery". It's an interesting comparison.

[Afterburner]

I tried rFactor on my 51 inch Toshiba TV (with "game mode" on) and suddenly the car was undriveable compared to my old 22 inch dell monitor. I just could not control a slide at all. I had to anticipate everything and could not spin up the rears at all without fishtailing all over the place. Then I took a reaction time test, and found I was only about 70ms slower on the Toshiba. 280 vs 210 ms. So it can make a big difference in my experience.

On the TV the car feels like it's floating above the track and the steering inputs feel "rubbery". It's an interesting comparison.

I've got a TV that does something similar--it has 'game mode' too but that doesn't really fix the problem. The controller lag is always smallest for me on older TV sets.

[BinaryDad]

One of the things I learned writing racing games was, reaction times really aren't key unless you design the game to require it (the Burnout series springs to mind).

For a while, I worked for a company that made free to play PC skill-games, usually physics based (racing etc.). In order for replays to work properly, the physics update and input code were completely decoupled from the rendering side of things. So while the simulation ran at 100Hz, the rendering could be as choppy and as low as you liked.

There's an implication in the latter, as it means that the time between the player seeing something happening and reacting, increases. In fact, it often increases beyond the typical sudden-event reaction time (half a second). And what I found was ( and I believe a few studies by the British MOD confirm this) the reaction time wasn't really key in a simulation and also real life.

When you're driving a car, you're typically focused on what's called "visual range". That is, your brain is predicting (using visual cues) what will happen when your car reaches a certain point, two seconds from now. And it's the ability to accurately predict that, that makes a good racing driver. And this rang true for my simulation because, I could have the graphics update running at around 15Hz, looking absolutely terrible, but people were still able to play the game very well.

Why? Because the human brain is great at filling in gaps. Especially gaps that are a constant delta time...as long as the error in what they see remains constant, a person can make very good judgement on near-future events. Essentially...it showed that reactions weren't the key factor in being able to drive a car at speed.